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 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 397
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?Page 11 of 53    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
The concept that you treat aliens as others treat a religion is simple- just as religions base their beliefs on conjecture, anecdotes and assumptions that contradict actual observed phenomon, so do you.

Your evidence that aliens exist begins and ends with the claim that other people claim they exist- and yes, you expect others to accept and trust these peoples claims solely on faith, or else you accuse them of being close-minded.
 nexthyme
Joined: 9/12/2007
Msg: 399
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Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/2/2009 8:16:08 PM
thanks dance... I apply movies, because they are entertaining, BUT these movies also have some interesting points that have been researched scientifically, which I find interesting they would add these things to a movie.

You are right, sometimes just not discussing something with someone that wants to find fault in some thinking things can be plausible because of unanswered questions is wise.

I am open minded about things, and have seen things that suggest there is more out there than what is said, or understood.. There is NO HARM or FOWL if my theoretical beliefs are wrong, because after all they are just opinions and idea sharing.





 nexthyme
Joined: 9/12/2007
Msg: 402
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Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/2/2009 9:28:10 PM
Willow, EXACTLY... Some time stuff happens and no matter how much a person can look for a scientific explanation there is not one. When they are repeated and still nothing that can explain them, it give a person the desire to look beyond what current science says.

I know what you are saying...These things weren't a dream and OTHERS were there to witness them as well.

Dance I know what you are saying about novels... The ability to reach that deep into the mind with a fantasy does give a person CAUSE to wonder.

I have not worked for 9 yrs, and have had a little to much free time, so reaching into metaphysics, and exploring what the human brain can do...WELL it is way cool, yet at the same time a heck of a lot of work.

Crack pot, that is only a person saying so that hasn't experienced it.

Thanks WIllow, you explained what I didn't seem to be able to explain...

 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 403
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 12:03:06 AM
Some interesting UFO video clips from around the world.

http://www.ufocasebook.com/bestufovideos1.html
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 405
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 7:43:03 AM
>>>nexthyme, I've just quit reading their stuff, maybe they'll quit reading ours,

Pfft- you wish. You may close your eyes and cover your ears and cover your mouth and hope that keeps other peoples thoughts away, but they exist whether you like it or not(in fact, that the furthest you can get from being open-minded- to deny opposing thoughts even exist)

>>>I person enjoyed "Mars Attacks" they were unstopable and was destroying the earth

I saw it in Theatres- although I gotta say, it was pretty dry, and the plot really didn't go anywhere....

>>>I never read the Matrix, but I bet it was good.

The Matrix was always a movie- there may be a novel out there, but its a novelization of the screenplay. If you're interested in a Matrix like book(sans the awesome Sci-Fi setting), you might want to look into Simulacra and Simulation- its a philosphical treatise that questions such things as reality- it made a brief appearence in the movie(where Neo hid his illegal programs at his apartment early in the movie)

>>>In may ways, to "not' know what is impossible is a good thing. It frees us up to do the impossibe as it might be common place, for in truth, it is.

So we would be in a better society if scientists were looking for the cure for cancer through alchemy, feeding people newt eyes, and chanting loudly? Gaining a better understanding how the universe works breeds results- expecting the universe to act on behalf of our assumptions, however, does not.

---------

>>>BUT these movies also have some interesting points that have been researched scientifically, which I find interesting they would add these things to a movie.

Mars Attacks was researched scientifically? Star Wars was research scientifically?

There are few concepts in those movies that make sense in a scientific sense- most things in these movies are not decided because that the way the universe works, but rather, that it's entertaining.

>>>sometimes just not discussing something with someone that wants to find fault in some thinking things can be plausible because of unanswered questions is wise.

Howso?

Would you somehow be better off if you go around telling people that humans were aliens, and created the pyamids, even though theres a 200,000 year gap between the point where they landed and rediscovered fire and when the pyramids were built?

How is skepticism and critisim a bad thing? And how is not only not pursuing knowledge, but actively avoiding factual interpretation of your beliefs a positive?

>>>There is NO HARM or FOWL if my theoretical beliefs are wrong, because after all they are just opinions and idea sharing.

Other than perputating and enabling ignorance

Imagine if medical science followed your lead- how many people would die because you don't feel there is anything wrong with enabling bad science?

How is refusing to take a stance a positive ideal for anyone to achieve? You're a smart person- you know the difference between good and bad science- but you accept both of them as if they hold equal value, as if cutting the head off a chicken and interpreting the blood to navigate the sea is equally as good as using a compass.

>>>Willow, EXACTLY...

Huh? I thought you were open-minded, and are equally open to the idea that aliens may or may not exist- now you're saying Willow, who just said that the reasons people don't believe in UFO's is because they've never seen one to validate their beliefs, is right? Doesn't that mean you are no longer open-minded- that you've made up your mind, and that aliens most definately do exist?

That claim seems contradictory to your previous claims of being impartial.

----------

>>> I think people like Jiperly either never experienced any unexplained phonema, or if they did, they found alternative explanations that cast doubt on them.

While I'm not disagreeing(I haven't experienced anything I was unable to explain to myself to my own sastifcation), isn't what you said a contradiction in terms? I mean, if I experienced something that was unexplainable, how could I expain it to myself?
 compleat_man
Joined: 10/3/2008
Msg: 407
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 9:30:58 AM

nexthyme, I've just quit reading their stuff, maybe they'll quit reading ours,


So Jiperly is right, it is just like religion, believe what you want to believe, and shut off your mind to any evidence that might show otherwise.

"my mind is already made up, don't confuse me with the facts"

LMAO

funny how it seems most of the people making fun with the symbol, are the same ones who in other threads support getting some hallucinogenic 'help' from marijuana..

weed is known to be more of a hallucinogen than alcohol..perhaps the 'visions' of spaceships, UFOs and aliens was helped along by a lil THC ?

POF doesn't have a symbol for someone smoking a big bowl..too bad..LMAO
 god_of_rock
Joined: 1/17/2009
Msg: 409
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 1:09:41 PM
^^


rather the snide venomous condescending tones of the poster in question and the way he presents himself. He will have this problem wherever he goes with whatever and whoever, it's called immaturity.




If one chooses to be a poster boy for birth control, there is no way we can stop you.


have you checked out the definition of 'irony' lately?
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 410
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 2:27:40 PM
And the irony doesn't stop there, rock- these are the people who claim that being open to possiblities, to having an open-mind- they are the ones who decide to ignore my posts because I feel the need to prove one idea is superior to another, rather than feel all are equal. Somehow, its noble for them to accept all ideas, even contradicting ones, on equal terms- that its their opinion and they have a right to it- but somehow its vulgar for me to believe in absolutes, that there is in reality only one idea that is supported by the evidence, and anything else is only supported by conjecture and anecdotes- that its my opinion, and I am wrong and juvenal to disagree with their noble actions.

>>>He will have this problem wherever he goes with whatever and whoever, it's called immaturity.

Its called disagreeing with how you interpret facts and evidence- get off your cruxifix- I have just as much a right to disagree with you as you have to disagree with me.

>>>I know nothing of the "facts" he presented , electing to not read his material.

And imagine all you can learn and understand with such an open-minded philosphy!

>>>Myself and other's that bore with his personality, will just have to suffer this great loss and hope somehow our lives might not be cut short by the absence of his great wisdom.

Like I already said, thats exactly the problem, isn't it? You don't oppose the idea that the universe has no aliens because of any inate understanding or feeling of the universe- rather, such a concept bores you, and isn't a sexy enough answer.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 412
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 3:00:05 PM
>>>The fact is that they were really effective in curing disease.

Not always- doctors, up until about a hundred years ago, were rather barbaric. And it was through a process of examination and observation that we better understood our bodies and the best ways to heal them.

>>>Today there is much scientific evidence proving faith healing.

Not from what I've heard- I know of at least one study that asked several families to pray for good health, while asking others to not pray. The result?

You have a greater chance of health if you do not pray. Go figure.

>>>There are many cases of cancers healed merely by faith, and it is becoming a part of the healing process.

Staying positive is certainly a part of the healing process, yes, but I know if no examples where someone "wished" away cancer.
 nexthyme
Joined: 9/12/2007
Msg: 413
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Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 3:32:52 PM
OK, compleat man... If a person repeats over and over AND OVER the same thing page after page, and then I repeat over and over and over the same stuff as well, I can either continue to engage or I can stop reading what that person has to say.

I have my experience that gives me cause to believe what I do, he has his. When we started his impute was interesting and insightful... However there is a point when all the points are redundant and a person is just stretching to disagree.

Believing in something is POSSIBLE is NOT a religion, especially when there IS evidence of some kind to back things up, that is having an open mind to what others have witnessed and seen.

Pounding the issue in a hundred different ways to get me to change my thought of this being possible is just going to end with me deciding to shut up...

NOW I have said the same thing TWICE in this post. Are you bored with it, tired of hearing the same thing only written in a different way???

As far as weed, wtf does that have to do with aliens???

How DO YOU KNOW how powerful of a hallucinogen it is??? Dang IT IS to bad they don't have a big ol bowl... Then I could send one back to you, because you seem to know a lot of the difference in hallucinogenics between alcohol, and weed...

ME, I am just an advocate for patients with a chronic health issue. They don't have to imbibe to the point of hallucinating, and I know this because I have spent 3 plus years researching the medical properties and illness. Have several well written papers on the subject, and countless sources as to what effects it has for the brain.

However, it is interesting you would bring this topic up...

Did you know besides opium, neuroreceptors, the human body also has cannabis neuroreceptors in the brain and body as well, the only two plant receptors in the brain??? Interesting when you think about evolution, and WHY the human body would evolve to include those two plants, but they have NOT been found in animals...

Glad you pointed out an anomaly in the human evolution theory, that is not understood or explained... Perhaps you are leading to the fact that is how the human brain is opened to alien communication???? vvvvActually once again you are correct willow. Studies I have seen as well as working with extremely ill people for a long time, those that had a positive family, and the positive energy that prayer brought are more likely to have a positive out come than some with the exact same issue.

I have seen much while working in the medical field, and those that had the desire to leave, did so. Others that had family that wanted them, stayed.

It doesn't work that way for all people, because some peoples bodies are to broken.

Jip it is one thing to say something, it is another to bring in research...vvvvvvvv
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 415
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Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 3:38:54 PM

Today there is much scientific evidence proving faith healing.


Anyone can SAY that... can you back it up with actual evidence? Verifiable, scientifically-sound evidence? Or is this just more "open-mindedness" without any actual merit?
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 416
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 4:08:45 PM
>>>You have a very sharp mind for a fella your age actually Far more educated then I am ,and I am twice your age.

HA! Still trickin' ya!

>>>untill we have solid evidence that shows us one way or another

But there is solid evidence one way- we may not know everything, but we certainly can come to conclusions based on our curent observations- what I find most offensive about your stance is that it says there is no evidence either way- but there is- only you disagree with our observations, and feel your assertions should hold inexplictably greater scientific weight.

>>>lets just all try to respect the different views coming in

Trust me, I am trying, but I'm not going to ignore people making false claims based on ignorance, stretching the truth, or outright lying to make their beliefs sound better and more practical.

>>> OK, compleat man... If a person repeats over and over AND OVER the same thing page after page, and then I repeat over and over and over the same stuff as well, I can either continue to engage or I can stop reading what that person has to say.

Actually, you have 3 options- if you feel all we are doing is repeating the same things over and over again, you can bring it to the attention of the moderating staff- although, frankly, while my opinion hasn't changed, I do feel we have discussed a large variety of different topics on the same issue.

Equally, if an user announces that they are no longer reading my posts, that in no means means that I am required to stop responding to theirs- if they wish to present an opinion, it may be challenged, regardless if they choose to defend it against the challenge or not.

>>>However there is a point when all the points are redundant and a person is just stretching to disagree.

Stretching to disagree? Not at all- I find fault in your claims, and let you know where and why I find fault in them. For instance, our latest exchange- you said humans could be aliens from another planet, and it is entirely plausible, using the mysterious construction of the pyramids as well as others as examples of these- I discovered a fault in your logic- that either aliens appeared milenia before the pyramids, and thus no longer had the tech to build such devices, or they appeared after humanity had spread accross the globe Tens or Hundreds of thousands of years before the construction event- the facts don't follow your logic- and I would be prepetuating ignorance if I discovered this flaw and ignored it.

>>>Believing in something is POSSIBLE is NOT a religion, especially when there IS evidence of some kind to back things up, that is having an open mind to what others have witnessed and seen.

But the evidence you use is no more valid than the evidence religions use- andoctal. You say this is evidence because people have convinced themselves that what they experienced is how they interpreted it- and, like a religion, I am forced to go on faith to accept that these people saw what they claimed to have seen, since no other evidence is avalible.

>>>As far as weed, wtf does that have to do with aliens???

Yea, that was a lil out of left field.....esspecially since, as far as I can tell, I am the only recent user in this thread who admits to using weed....
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 418
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Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 4:42:52 PM
Willow just did Sir, if you find it of great import , ask for assistance in locating it rather then asking him to back it up, like you might be invite him to a fist fight in a back alley.

There was enough said prior to suggest the evidence exist, if a placebo has recorded advanced healing abilities , you one failed to read, two failed to comprehend, three, didn't believe placebos work, 4 failed to associate faith and a placebo,or 5 just wish to be disagreeable


If you are talking to me, which is not clear, as you seem from my perspective to be replying to parts of two posts without quoting either, I cannot explain the several minute delay in posting my response. Unfortunately, this placed my response below the placebo effect reply. I do not, however, see the placebo effect curing any cancer, even in that offered link. I also don't see any evidence in that link (or anywhere else) of "advanced healing abilities" recorded for placebos. The most I've seen reproducibly recorded are pain-relief effects, which the mind can do all by its lonesome, thanks to intrinsic endorphin production (and possibly other mechanisms).

And oh boy, if you think I'm being disagreeable, you should see me on a disagreeable day. All I'm doing is asking for some proof of the outlandish claims that witch doctors and faith healers ACTUALLY CURE CANCER.

Seems pretty reasonable to me; person A makes a claim, person B asks for some proof, person A provides some proof, the discussion moves forward. Instead of; ...person B asks for some proof, and 5 people pile on insults and claims of bigotry and closed-mindedness, with not one iota of proof offered, and the discussion gets mired in a cycle of person B asking for proof and getting repeatedly attacked for it.

Besides, weren't you "boycotting" the other side of this debate because you couldn't get past the requests for scientific proof?


Believing in something is POSSIBLE is NOT a religion, especially when there IS evidence of some kind to back things up, that is having an open mind to what others have witnessed and seen.


Nexthyme, all anyone here has asked for is that evidence. If it exists, you can provide it, yes?
 nexthyme
Joined: 9/12/2007
Msg: 419
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Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 4:57:57 PM
jip, before and again you have accused me of lying, to bolster my postings... THAT I find offensive, and have told you that before.

I agreed with Willow, because I have seen, and heard peoples experiences, those are the UNEXPLAINED, I have watched shows and even did research on the unexplained.

I have asked who can demonstrate on such a SUBJECTIVE subject, what is a primary source, or psuedo science... THAT post was ignored..

You have made many statements of this that and the other, yet you don't show your OWN proof, but just state it because it is something you read, or what ever. As well you state that these theories are well known.

Perhaps, but once again some of the theory you state as fact is still JUST THEORY... THEORY is not a fact, it is a theory.

Yes, we have covered many different things, however now we have reached apoint of being redundant, you believe one way, based on what you have read, research et al, and I have reached a different conclusion based on research, reading, documentaries et al.

YOU are the one that have decided to "invalidate" mine and others evidence, which I would like to know where your scientific credentials are to make you an expert at invalidating someone elses evidence???

When I talked about the plausibility of an alien race coming down, and after generations of NOT having the tools they had where they came from, this knowledge does get lost.

JUST AS they have with the pyramids, et al. WHICH WAS ONLY AN EXAMPLE OF LOST SKILLS... If records were so well kept, why are we wondering how they were built? Why are we questioning what the initial poster stated as to what the Sumerian tablets meant? How about the writings of the Mayan, Aztec, and Inca???

You dismiss first hand witnesses as anecdotal, which once again if YOU didn't see it, how is it that you are an expert as to what that person is testifying they seen?

I have no issue with what you believe is factual... I see many holes in these theories as well, and yet can agree that they are plausible theories... HOWEVER I also see different life theories and I have repeatedly said this, there can be many answers to these same questions, that can be equally right.

I agreed with Dance, that if after a while, another poster has to much pleasure in repeatedly finding fault in what a person seems as plausible, then they have a few choices, as you say tell a mod.. WHY, you haven't out right personally attacked me, so there is no point.

I can stop replying to you, and ignore what you say about me... Much more plausible, because at least I don't feel the need to defend something I SEE as plausible...

I am NOT satisfied with any one theory, hypothesis, et al... Thus I continue to research, and keep an eye out for NEW evidence.

However I do know this, we haven't seen all there is to see, NOR have we seen an inth of this Universe. We don't understand quasars, nor do we know where black holes go, or why they can emit proton radiation as the black hole in the milky way is doing.

We don't understand how the human brain really works, and in reality are still rather clueless as to how some major organs work... In fact they use drugs for things they call disorders, but don't know how or why they work...

Just because I can relate and understand what Willow posts, doesn't make my thoughts stagnant or stale... As I have also stated before... WHO CARES if I believe it is plausible aliens tinkered with us, or are still flying around observing us... REALLY does my opinion matter that much????



 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 421
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 5:29:23 PM
>>>jip, before and again you have accused me of lying, to bolster my postings... THAT I find offensive, and have told you that before.

I never specifiedyou- if you want me to name the user, I think Blue lies to bolster his support(and I have found numerous examples of such where he stretches the truth or outright lies)

>>>I agreed with Willow, because I have seen, and heard peoples experiences, those are the UNEXPLAINED, I have watched shows and even did research on the unexplained.

Again, isn't that a contradiction? If Willow or others are able to explain to your stastifaction the unexplained.....doesn't that mean it is no longer the unexplained?

>>>I have asked who can demonstrate on such a SUBJECTIVE subject, what is a primary source, or psuedo science

But that question is invalid- subjective means the subject can change from person to person- but the question, do aliens exist, is not a subjective one- the question of whether or not there is evidence of the existence of aliens may be subjective, but not the question of whether or not there are aliens.

If you want a list to identify pseudoscience, heres some breif examples I got from Wikipedia

*Use of vague, exaggerated or untestable claims
*Over-reliance on confirmation rather than refutation
*Lack of openness to testing by other experts
*Lack of progress
*Personalization of issues
*Use of misleading language


~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience#Identifying_pseudoscience

>>>yet you don't show your OWN proof, but just state it because it is something you read, or what ever.

Have I stated something you feel needs proving? By all means, don't let me stop you.

>>>YOU are the one that have decided to "invalidate" mine and others evidence, which I would like to know where your scientific credentials are to make you an expert at invalidating someone elses evidence???

What makes you an expert to validate your own beliefs in the first place?

Again, if you find something wrong with my beliefs, by all means- but don't come to mean saying "so and so saw this, so it must be true"

>>>How about the writings of the Mayan, Aztec, and Inca???

If you are refering to the 2012 stuff, that is completely irrelivant to the discussion- so I don't bother discussing it.

>>>You dismiss first hand witnesses as anecdotal, which once again if YOU didn't see it, how is it that you are an expert as to what that person is testifying they seen?

I simply refuse to accept anecdotal evidence- its worthless- there is no point in all of human history that anedotal evidence has been a valuble tool.

And, at the end of the day, when you ask me to accept anecdotal evidence, you are asking me to accept the assertions of another human being, with no more evidence than that person have convinced themself that they are right.

>>>HOWEVER I also see different life theories and I have repeatedly said this, there can be many answers to these same questions, that can be equally right.

Really? The idea that there are no aliens can co-exist with a belief that there are most definately some, and they are abducting people? How? They are a direct contradiction.

>>>I agreed with Dance, that if after a while, another poster has to much pleasure in repeatedly finding fault in what a person seems as plausible, then they have a few choices

And you believe me finding fault in your stance is somehow my fault?

>>>REALLY does my opinion matter that much????

Not at all- but you're the one who keeps offering it freely, and thus so will I offer my own.

------------

>>>The point is that science could never prove the existence of aliens unless one came down and submitted to scientific research.

I suppose that would be too much effort.

>>>However if one takes into consideration the countless eyewitness accounts, many of which involved multiple witnesses, including police, military, and radar evidence, you have to assume that something must be up.

It really is an assumption, though, isn't it?

Radar evidence is merely evidence of either faulty Radar or that secret vehicles can be picked up by radar- and witnesses, as I've explained above, are not reliable enough.

>>>The idea that the earth is being visited by an advanced civilization is a much simpler explanation than any of the others being offered

How is defying the observed laws of physics simplier? Isn't the simpliest explaination that people simply are misinterpreting what they witnessed?

>>>and why not.

Theres that magic word again!

>>>Life is found in the most inhospitable places of the earth, from miles under ground, to the depths of the deepest oceans. To assume that we are alone in the universe is a lot bigger stretch of the imagination than to assume aliens exist.

But all life originated from the same single lifeform- life appeared independently from inanimate matter only once, and never again since. The fact that life is hardly and adaptive is a powerful truth- but that neither proves that life must appear on other planets, nor does it begin to explain the conditions or plausiblity of intelligent life- from our own examinations, intelligent life is one of the rarest forms of life. Some users want us to believe are are dozens of different kinds of extraterrestial intelligent life, all of which have found our planet amoungst the trillions of stars....

>>>You don’t think that if we continued advancing for a few million more years, we wouldn’t be visiting other planets?

I'd certainly hope so, but I seriously doubt any lifeform as complex as us has the ability to live for several million years.
 nexthyme
Joined: 9/12/2007
Msg: 423
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Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 7:07:14 PM
That is a great show Twister... Seen it, and it states there is viable proof of 11 dimensions...

Sorry Dance, there is a re engagement because once again Jip wants to say according to WIKI which IS NOT a reliable PRIMARY source, that we don't know what we are talking about...

Infact everybody just misunderstands what they have seen, those stupid people...

As well Im contradicting myself, that there are aliens, but that there aren't. I never said that, I said that I think it is plausible that evolution and alien intervention was plausible..

As well he is under the assumption that Mayans, Aztec, et al, were only interested in 2012... INCORRECT, once again there is more to those cultures than just an interest in 2012....

Twister I will have to watch the parallel universe show again... IT was great the first time, will have to see what I am missed....
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 424
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Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 7:32:26 PM
Rather than address ALL the malarkey, which almost always requires a couple hours of my time...

Wiki is referenced and open to peer review. It's not perfect, but that makes it about as credible and unbiased as it can be. Potentially biased articles on Wiki are identified by the disclaimers which STATE that references are missing or there is ongoing dispute [which is also linked, so that you can review the disputed points]. The claim that Wiki is unreliable is bogus, no matter who makes the claim. Individual articles may be open to question, but overall, the source is reliable.

That said, the above reference was to established definitions. They're reliable and not exactly open to dispute. All the above points were valid, and I would have more or less stated them WITHOUT refering to any source. Pseudoscience is meant to LOOK scientific by using actual facts, borrowed and misused [or correct] scientific terms, and logical-sounding arguments. It fails as science for a variety of reasons: false assumptions, logical fallacy, lies, abuse and misuse of terminology, etc. Creationism, 2012-sensationalism, astrology, faith-healing, and alien visitation all qualify as pseudoscience for a multitude of reasons. By and large, they don't even cross the start line because they are founded on assumptions which lack supporting evidence or definitions.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 425
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 7:59:13 PM
>>>Sorry Dance, there is a re engagement because once again Jip wants to say according to WIKI which IS NOT a reliable PRIMARY source, that we don't know what we are talking about...

I never said Wiki was a primary source- but you asked for how to identify pseduoscience- so I offered some means to identfy it. There is no absolute one answer for how to identify pseduoscience, so there really is no such thing as a "primary source" on how to identify pseduoscience.

>>>Infact everybody just misunderstands what they have seen, those stupid people...

I never said everybody- but a large number of people seem to misunderstand the situation, yes. Why is it such a horrible thing to imagine that people make mistakes?That people misperceive the situation?

I do not expect everyone to look up at the sky and instantly be able to identify a satalite or a plane- equally, there are people out there with unknown mental issues, people who get their kicks out of creating hoaxes, and people who honestly just want so desparately to be special and want human companionship that they are willing to make stuff up.

You'd like to take all these possiblities, cast them aside, and claim the only explaination is these people must be right that it is space creatures.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 426
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 8:34:16 PM

Did you know that at one time, witch doctors and medicine men were thought of as quacks? In fact most people today believe that they are totally useless, without any scientific validity. The fact is that they were really effective in curing disease. Today there is much scientific evidence proving faith healing. There are many cases of cancers healed merely by faith, and it is becoming a part of the healing process.


I hope you aren't talking about the likes of Benny Hinn and his ilk because I think it's safe to say, if you are, well then you're doing P.T. Barnum very proud right now.


No one is arguing against science, If there are aliens, hopefully science will one day prove their existence.


No one is arguing science but there are very few who are actually arguing for it. A lot of what I have read is New Age mumbo jumbo, a lot of "wouldn't it be nice if..."-type statements and "You don't have an open enough mind if..."-type statements too.

Here's the thing: Science is a question of hard work. Sitting around and "thinking" and speculating is only a part of it. Then there's the research, testing and observation. And I'm really not seeing any acknowledgement of that.

Let's tackle the assertion someone made regarding a "planet" in the main asteroid belt blown up by an ancient civilization. Now, the research has show that a: the asteroid belt's mass is insufficient to form even a small moon, never mind a planet and b: several asteroid groups have 3:1 and 3:2 resonances with Jupiter. That means that no planet could have formed in that region because of Jupiter's disruptive influence. No ancient civilization needed, especially since there's no proof of one there or anywhere else.

Then there's those who are arguing for alien intervention...so where's your proof? Genetics is a pretty advanced science. Where's the tell-tale signs of genetic manipulation in our genome? What's your evidence.

As for theory, again, it's different from hypothesis and speculation. It bears repeating because people just seem to miss that point. A lot of people here are engaging in wild speculation and mild hypothesizing. Science, with it's gathering of evidence and observation, develops theories. Theories like evolution, the Big Bang, gravity, etc.
 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 427
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 8:40:32 PM
nexthyme you're really wasting your time engaging jip or trying to prove anything to him. It'll never happen and it's truly not worth it. He's a 23 year old skeptic with no stated background in much of anything and his responses are all the same and truly tiresome. He has the imagination of an ashtray. But I'm certain that if/when he does encounter something unearthly, he'll wet his pants.


Infact everybody just misunderstands what they have seen, those stupid people...


But of course jip understands everything LMAO. That's the same tack most "debunkers" take because it's the only response they can parrot. It's too foolish to even bother discussing.


but a large number of people seem to misunderstand the situation, yes.


You see. Now he's clairvoyant. He can see into everyone's mind and knows what they understand or don't understand. (In best Saturday Night Live)...isn't that special ROTFLMAO.


there are people out there with unknown mental issues


See. Not only don't they understand what they see but they're crazy. LMAO. Foolish is not the word that comes to mind but it'll do.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 428
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 9:07:13 PM
The hell? I thought you said you weren't reading any of my posts?

>>>He has the imagination of an ashtray

Yes, because understanding the universe only requires an imagination- actual study is completely unnessary, so long as you have an active imagination.

>>>But of course jip understands everything LMAO.

Yea, I can see how you can think that with the kind of answers I give;



I could blow you away with the number of things I don't know.

~Post 209

>>>That's the same tack most "debunkers" take because it's the only response they can parrot.

And I suppose the kind of things you say are more credible because you say it? The fact that I am certain of my beliefs is no more evidence against my beliefs than the fact that you are certain of your beliefs is not evidence against your own.

>>>You see. Now he's clairvoyant. He can see into everyone's mind and knows what they understand or don't understand.

No, I accept that people make mistakes- people are flawed- and people cannot be expected to understand everything they see. Its a humble belief, if I do say so myself- esspecially in contrast to your own- that anyone who sees an alien spaceship should be able to instantly identify it, and to doubt that these people understood completely what they saw is somehow closeminded.

>>>Not only don't they understand what they see but they're crazy.

Not all people with mental issues are crazy.

-----------

>>>your not talking about me are ya Jip

No, it wasn't about anyone on this forum- spefically, I was thinking of some of the characters a show I watch (Penn and Teller's Bullshit!) who had various mental issues they were dealing with, and all claimed to have contacted aliens, and joined a support group talking about their experiences- clearly, those kinds of people have social issues and make these claims as a means to have meaningful human contact. Again, before anyone says anything, I'm not saying all claims are made by these kinds of people- but some are- and it certainly is a far more rational answer than they were abducted by aliens.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 430
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Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 10:45:12 PM
OK, if you want to get right down to it, there is no scientific proof of existence of aliens

Bingo. That is the crux of the argument. Zero evidence. The arguments in favor of aliens are all non-sequitur fallacies because the existence of aliens is never established by any evidenciary or logical means. It clearly does not follow that aliens are an explanation for anything. Not until you demonstrate their existence in the first place. Circular arguments also do not offer proof. "Abduction by aliens" does not establish the existence of aliens, so it can't be the basis of identifying UFOs as alien vessels. These are logical fallacy, not logic, not evidence, not proof, not rational. Not impossible, but not established in even the tiniest way.

However neither is there of evolution.

False. Evolution is inherited change. This is a fact. Natural selection is also a fact. Explaining the origin and diversification of species by way of evolution driven by natural selection, is a well-established explanation which works to explain observed facts 100% of the time. Millions of times. That's the "theory" - an explanation for observed facts, which is tested and which works reliably, both pro-hoc and post-hoc.

Its all subjective.

No. Evolution is established on the basis of observed evidence and the scientific method. This is objective and thus testable by anyone using comparable methods and tools. Belief in aliens is entirely subjective, since the concepts vary wildly, the claims vary wildly, and none of the claims can ever be tested. "I know what I saw and you can't prove me wrong" is the ultimate in subjectivity.

In the case of alien life, given the vastness of the universe, and the proliferatiion of life on earth it seems quite probable that there is life on other planets. Most scientists would agree.

I agree. I think [pardon me if I misinterpret] that I agree with stargazer and disagree with jiperly here only on a subtle but important point: Jiperly considers life to be an incredible fluke, and to expect it anywhere else without evidence is illogical. Based on what I know of life and chemistry, I consider life to be an almost-inevitable outcome of basic chemistry, and thus would expect life to be widespread in the universe. Regardless, there's no evidence yet of life away from Earth, no evidence of any such life being intelligent, and no evidence of such intelligent life visiting Earth.

However, as soon as you talk about aliens as an explanation for the UFO phenomena, its like any one even suggesting it is considered a quack.

Because logical explanations exist which allow many objects to be identified, and because UNIDENTIFIED flying objects leave zero evidence of their origins, and there's zero evidence of the existence of aliens. No evidence of a creator for an object lacking evidence of exactly what it is - pretty tenuous thread.

and all describing something beyond human technology

Let's be concise: this is not "beyond human technology". That is a conclusion based on evidence not provided. What is described is "beyond the observer's familiarity". That doesn't mean any fabricated explanation will actually be valid.

is passed off as mass halucination, coincidence

These are explanations which have been demonstrated as accurate in some cases, and they are based on causes which are known to exist. Aliens have not been shown to exist. Occam's razor leads us to conclusions based on facts, not fantasies.

claiming that huge craft doing extraordinary manouvers

Until it's parked and measured, or at least photographed in such a way that it can be, "huge" is a vague and unsubstantiated claim, and so is "extraordinary manouvers".

meteors, or swamp gas, even though verified by radar. Oh right, the radar was faulty. Coincidence again.

See above, under "causes which are known to exist".

All this just to keep hidden the forbidden thought that there are things about the universe that we just don't know yet.

B.S. It's to seek explanations which actually WORK.

We have to keep the boogeyman tightly locked away behind the steel bars of so called scientific proof.

It's the same scientific proof which enables you to post here, rather than the unpredictable results of making offerings to computer fairies, in hope they'll spirit your words around the world to other light boxes on peoples' desks. One gets reliable results, the other doesn't. Have you been sacrificing to the fairies lately?

So, by waving the banner of science it is ok to talk about user created reality, multiple dimensions, time travel, wormholes, parallel universes, etc

Once again, concepts supported by evidence, albeit often mathematical evidence rather than physical. In the context of aliens, however, these are scientific concepts co-opted for pseudoscience: there's still no proof of aliens, so explanations of where they came from and how they got here are meaningless. Truly meaningless. Prove they're here FIRST.

just may be the work of a more advanced civilization, and you are forever relegated to quackdom.

See previous. Both are equally quackalicious. No body, no murder. Asking a cause of death is pointless.

that the thousands of unexplained UFO sightings, unexplainable crop circles

Appeal to numbers fallacy. Also note the repeated use of the word "unexplained". They're unexplained because there isn't enough evidence to establish an explanation. Fabricating an explanation doesn't create any of that missing evidence.

A side trip to human pre-history:
Our species is about 250000 years old. We have the bones. We coexisted with up to three close relatives until quite recently. We shared an immediate ancestor with one of those, and our combined ancestors stretch back about 3 million years. We have clearly identifiable kin going back another 4 million before that. Based on known mutation rates, our genetic profiles match up with the physical differences between us and all other life on Earth and when they would be expected to arise. There's no discrepancy. Among the human lineage, stone tools date back nearly 3 million years. Forged metals do not appear until a few thousand years ago. Nowhere along the way is there sign of advanced technology or non-terrestrial life. ALL along the way, there is evidence of terrestrial kinship. There's simply nothing to indicate alien influence.

Additional notes on mammalian ancestry - all mammals have "reptile" ancestors. Those ancestors included large scaley things, but they were not dinosaurs, nor were they at all like modern reptiles. The similarities are plesiomorphic and superficial - scaley egg-layers.
 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 431
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/3/2009 11:06:51 PM
Interesting exerpt from a Larry King show. (Yes jip, they're all delusional, mistaken - please don't even bother replying). This is for everyone else. I watched the whole show but don't know if they archived it or not. It was fascinating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO4FhJ3mjrE
 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 432
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/4/2009 1:15:54 AM
I wonder what this cop thought he was chasing, but I'm curious; what country is this in? He was driving on the left side of the road. Was the video flipped or was it filmed in e.g. England? I'm also surprised there was no audio (at least I didn't hear anything and all systems are go on my rig).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBF8Ns-MXy0&feature=related

I've sure seen a plethora of "garbage" "UFO" films which is a shame because it's obviously designed and intended to cast ridicule upon anyone, such as many of us here, who "knows" and is truly able to think outside the box and accept, unlike the "scientists" among us, that, as Benjamin Disraeili said "it's a wise man who knows nothing" and, relatively speaking, "they" know nothing in the grand scheme of things. I find that conduct disgraceful. Whatever I say here is meant to prove nothing to anyone. It's only to share my experiences.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 435
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/4/2009 8:52:42 AM
Evolution is an effective theory for explaining the development of life on this planet so to say it's "only" a theory is inaccurate, to say the least.

Okay, let's turn this around. How about those of you determined to prove that UFOs are extraterrestrial - after all, that's what we're talking about here - tell me why I, in 30 years of stargazing, have NEVER seen anything resembling the ol' flying disc, etc. I've seen satellites, both normal and tumbling. I've seen shooting stars and planets. Never anything "unusual."

Let's also talk about this great "conspiracy" by NASA et. al. to "hide the truth." Seriously, does no one think that scientists wouldn't love to find proof of aliens? There's a whole group of people actually looking for evidence of extraterrestrial life. Not only would they not hide the discovery, they would be shouting it from the rooftops.
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