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 dragonwatcher
Joined: 9/6/2009
Msg: 1056
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?Page 24 of 53    (13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53)
I can see by your remarks that you are stuck in science and I don't debate with those trapped at this level. You are not ready for the truth. When you are, it will open up to you.
 dragonwatcher
Joined: 9/6/2009
Msg: 1057
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 9/16/2009 11:13:35 AM

The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.
Terry Pratchett

I believe in an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.
Arthur Hays Sulzberger

A great many open minds should be closed for repairs.
Toledo Blade


An open mind also allows you to gain knowledge so you do not need to quote others in order to communitcate.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 1058
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 9/16/2009 11:40:28 AM
Who're you talkin' to Dragon? In either event;

>>> I don't debate with those trapped at this level. You are not ready for the truth. When you are, it will open up to you.

Am I the only one who finds this to be lazy? to argue "I won't debate with you unless you already agree with me" only means you don't wish to debate- it means you're only looking for people to tell you that all you have to do is feel that you are right, and thus, you are. The Pippi Longstocking way to look at the world- all you need to believe it is true, and it is!
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 1059
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History
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 9/16/2009 11:56:05 AM
Science is the only means to arrive at objective "truths" and consistent explanations. It's not something one can be "stuck" in.

Science functions by a process of elimination - that which does not or cannot work, cannot be a cause or explanation. Where a cause cannot yet be determined, the best hypothesis is reasonably assumed to be the one which involves known and real objects and processes.

Thus, although it is possible that rock art depicts aliens and alien flying machines, this explanation is problematic:
Known and real: dating and discovery of part of the artwork does not mean that the parts mentioned fit those dates.
Known and real: dating of the artwork could be wrong due to contamination, new use of old materials, incorrect techniques, or fraud.
Known and real: humans have a history and prehistory of abstract, exaggerated, and distorted artwork. viz - native American totems, Japanese manga, Picasso.
Known and real: a lenticular shape is very simple and can't be decisively identified as anything without a relevant context.
Known and real: an illustration of a humanoid form with a large head and disproportionately large eyes is consistent with children, deformed or dwarved adults, and in some cases by animals in unnatural poses.
Known and real: modern illustrations of aliens vary widely by region and date and largely have no historical precedent before they appeared in known fiction. A connection between the two is tenuous and suspicious.
Not known: aliens, alien technologies, fairies, gnomes, trolls, angels, gods. Not a shred of tangible evidence for any of these.

So you have two sets of explanations: those which conform with known facts, and those which ignore known fact and leap straight to the intangible. When one has these two options, to leap straight to the intangible is irrational.

As a side note, the traditional rock paintings of Sedona are numerous, widespread, and FAR from accurate and detailed depictions. View a sample here:
http://arizona-travel.suite101.com/article.cfm/sedona_rock_art
http://www.susiereedphotos.com/sedona_rock_art_calendar_back.html
http://www.petroglyph.org/

The dates provided are thus far questionable, in that the artwork is widespread [so which have been dated?], ruins and artifacts are associated with the sites [are the dates derived from the artifacts rather than the art?], and the area is popular with artists and alien enthusiasts [how many have "added" to the rock art?].
 dragonwatcher
Joined: 9/6/2009
Msg: 1060
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 9/16/2009 12:28:40 PM
Not lazy my friend, I do not need to debate, nor do I have the time. The truth opens up to you when you are ready. Ah, Pippi, I loved her braids, as do you, it seems.

These may help many of you here on this forum....

http://educate-yourself.org/
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/esp_vida_alien_20a.htm
http://www.forbiddenarcheology.com/
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread402958/pg1
http://www.lawofone.info/
http://www.luisprada.com/Protected/the_lacerta_files.htm
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 1061
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History
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 9/16/2009 12:34:37 PM
Seen most of those already. They're riddled with fraud, faulty and cherry-picked "facts", and absolutely rife with logical fallacy. Their content has been extensively discussed and refuted in a number of threads already.
 nexthyme
Joined: 9/12/2007
Msg: 1062
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History
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 9/16/2009 12:37:58 PM

Again, and this must be the third or fourth time, what about these images imply they are drawing machines? Couldn't it be clouds? An all seeing eye? and whose the say the image represents a sky?

>>>and why not...

You know the arguments for why not. In a nutshell, its physically impossible, and the only alternative is to disregard all our observations of the universe and how it works, simply on the premise that you don't feel its true. Its frankly a very subjective and, dare I say, egotistical way to view the universe, where something must be true because you FEEL it, and proving it is an unnecessary step to claiming it true.


Jip, you did not see the petroglyphs I seen in person... No not a cloud, because it was the typical saucer with a dome.... Over the animals, and other creatures that were below them...

I can NOT say what they mean, however I can say that what I did see had a being that was depicted like one of the tall greys... There were smaller people, which were PEOPLE looking carved drawings around the tall triangle headed, long arms and legs craved drawing (freaking deformed big child)...There was a scorpio, and snake, as well as horses, and something with a longer neck... There are also was the swirl, which nobody knows what that means either...


This argument is like if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears or sees it, did it not happen??

If a group of deaf people were in the forest and they didn't see the tree fall, and of course didn't hear it, but felt some sort of vibration, is it still not a tree falling???

Frogo, I looked at the site, and the petroglyphs were not on there, and were not painted... As well they were discovered in the 1800's and were drawn out, which there were no add ons from that time...So if in the 1800's their were FLYING saucers with the dome on it, I don't know about them.

I don't have pictures to show, because I wasn't expecting to get to see them, was on a prewedding journey, however I am sure if I call the shaman that took us up there, I could get pictures....

However sadly I don't think that would mean much....

Jip what we know as impossible, is as far as our own knowledge is... In 1962 it was only a dream to get to the moon, before that, space flight was considered NOT possible... We have been to the moon and back and even managed to build a space station. Once again something not considered possible fifty yrs prior to that even.

I am comfortable with believe other things are possible...

That isn't throwing science out, that isn't believing anything one way or another, it is just giving it a possibility. It is being open to the idea there is a hell of a lot more to learn about this world, and that somethings may have MANY explanations, but then again maybe they are what they look like...

I am sure that in this world, my willingness to be open to other ideas is NOT harmful, nor is it going to matter to diddly ounces to anyone else. I have my own career path that does NOT include the need to prove of disprove aliens. I still hold my degree in the medical field, that also didn't require my thoughts on aliens...

Once again my thoughts are, they are possible... that doesn't mean probable, or for sure, just possible and from my own interest I have seen the saucer shapes in hieroglyphs in Egypt, as well as in Renaissance paintings, which weren't added after flying machines happened...

Granted they could be something else, I wouldn't know, I don't claim to know... I just know what I seen in person, and "anecdotal" first hand stories, and experiences. What I find sad is that these experiences seem to NOT COUNT, because a "scientist" with some long list of credentials didn't see them. Then again those who have a long list of credentials are said to be frauds, even if they are in the military...

So I guess if a tree falls in the forest, and a scientist, that is believe by the scientific community wasn't there to witness it, to replicate it again, and to test all aspects of the occurrence to pass scientific proof, it never happened...


 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 1063
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History
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 9/16/2009 12:58:15 PM
So I guess if a tree falls in the forest, and a scientist, that is believe by the scientific community wasn't there to witness it, to replicate it again, and to test all aspects of the occurrence to pass scientific proof, it never happened...

Most of these analogies are poor ones, since everything about the analog can be tested and falls in the "known and real" category. Trees exist, forests exist, trees fall. It's reasonable to believe that an unobserved tree has fallen, because we know it has happened before. Without a shred of tangible evidence for extraterrestrials, they cannot be a parsimonious explanation. With tangible evidence for alternate explanations, ETs become far less credible still.


As well they were discovered in the 1800's and were drawn out, which there were no add ons from that time...

All of which, at this point, is unsubstantiated claims as well as non-parsimonious explanations. More significantly, you indicate that they don't look like the *genuine* paleo rock art in the links I provided. Again, that casts doubt on their veracity.


So if in the 1800's their were FLYING saucers with the dome on it, I don't know about them

And yet, this concept is a modern one from science fiction, and saucer shaped flying machines are very rare among man-made machines. There simply isn't a good precedent on which to base the conclusion that the simple shape must be a flying machine. All we have is a post hoc fallacy based on modern fictitious concepts.

and from my own interest I have seen the saucer shapes in hieroglyphs in Egypt, as well as in Renaissance paintings, which weren't added after flying machines happened

Same problem. Simple shape with a complex and unsupported conclusion associated with a post hoc fallacy.

None of which is to conclude that the illustrations DO NOT depict aliens or alien technology. I am simply saying that thus far, the evidence does not rationally support those conclusions.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 1064
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 9/16/2009 3:10:48 PM

An open mind also allows you to gain knowledge so you do not need to quote others in order to communitcate.


I'm perfectly willing to be convinced of extraterrestrial visitations, but there hasn't yet been any convincing proof presented ; ancient carvings or paintings that some say "could be crude representations of UFOs" are hardly proof.

Some piece of extraterrstrial hardware or technology would be convincing ( oh I forgot, that evidence does exist, but it's being supressed by the government-vatican-fill-in-the-blank group.
 nexthyme
Joined: 9/12/2007
Msg: 1065
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History
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 9/16/2009 6:25:23 PM
Frogeyes, ya know I respect the hell out of ya... My SIMPLY point was this... These are real recognized petroglyphs, I have seen the deeper carved ones on National geo channel, so and they wouldn't be documented and protected if they weren't. It just wouldn't make financial sense.

I hear what you are saying... However I also find it interesting that these particular shapes have a long run in multitudes of cultures. These things are spoken about, and despite the fact that they are considered "anecdotal", people seen something that was not normal or in their daily world.

I also understand about translating someone elses art, I can say for sure that my art pieces even though painted in a realistic term, have a totally different meaning for me, then how they would be translated.

As I stated back about 30 pages, I also worked with a young adult that had a very "unexplainable experience in the desert". These things and a few other "anecdotes" give me the impression of a plausible existence.

These beings are probably long extinguished, and never will be seen again, which is fine, because our society certainly can't handle the human race.

Scientifically, meh, I wouldn't say that these things are scientific proof, but at least for me give me pause... I am willing to listen more, and see what may still exist, which there may never be an existence again...

My opinion means nothing, so there is no need to convince me of anything... I believe in a possibility, but my life isn't ruled by any aliens return, or anything of the sort... It is just more of a passing interest, which as an open minded person is fun to entertain, and to explore the possibilities when I can....

Unless I try to convince people to put tinfoil on their heads, and to beware of certain dates, WHICH I did get sucked into a long while back.... I am harmless...

I would suggest anyone to go to Sedona as a great place to visit, in the winter or late fall time.... It is peaceful, beautiful, and has wonderful places to hike and explore.

We went to Montazuma's Castles Ruins as well, they were fascinating, and I would love to know where those people went, and why they up and left. Since these people didn't leave good records it is left up to guess, but knowing these people existed in such a harsh environment is amazing...

Did they get sucked up by aliens??? I don't think so...
 PrettyInPink2882
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 1066
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/4/2010 1:44:29 PM
Yes, I would say we have some of their DNA they do not know what Black Matter is most likely it's probably from them...another world...call me crazy but that's my two cents.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 1067
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History
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/4/2010 9:00:01 PM

Yes, I would say we have some of their DNA they do not know what Black Matter is most likely it's probably from them...another world...call me crazy but that's my two cents.

You DO know that the X-Files is a show of fiction, right? I could be wrong, but that sounds a lot like one of their longer story arcs.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 1068
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/4/2010 9:34:57 PM

I can see by your remarks that you are stuck in science and I don't debate with those trapped at this level.


Yeah, he doesn't debate with people that want to use facts, proof and evidence to bolster their side of the debate; or demand that he ( dragonwatcher) provide facts proof & evidence to support his side.
 JP1111
Joined: 4/13/2008
Msg: 1069
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/4/2010 9:59:52 PM
I think it is all an interesting fabrication designed to simply allow your mind to ponder and wonder. Do I believe in it? Not for a second. Mind you at the same time, I also do not believe in God. I do believe in the teachings, but not the story passed on in religions.

Of course it’s plausible that humans are part of an extra-terrestrial hybrid blood line, at the same time it is also plausible that we all come from Adam and Eve and, it is also plausible that we all came to be after the Big Bang.

I would question right off the bat the “unavoidable facts” you are referring to. Are they really facts or are they things people have said were facts that were found? You see, to me a fact becomes a fact when either I see it or, a person or organization to I trust confirms it to be a fact. But one person telling another who then tells another etc… to me is hear-say and not a fact.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 1072
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/5/2010 10:48:29 AM

This here discussion isn't about facts, proof or evidence. This discussion is about experience and beliefs.


If that's supposed to be the case, a better title for the thread would be:

" Do you believe humans were created by aliens? "

not

"Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?

People are welcome to believe anything they like ( aliens, ghosts, fairies).

If you want to take a belief & insert the word theory then it become a different ballgame entirely.

{quote]1. Theory, hypothesis are used in non-technical contexts to mean an untested idea or opinion. A theory in technical use is a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena: the theory of relativity. A hypothesis is a conjecture put forth as a possible explanation of phenomena or relations, which serves as a basis of argument or experimentation to reach the truth: This idea is only a hypothesis.

If someone wants to say they"believe' we were created by aliens no problem. If they say they have a "plausible theory" that we were created by aliens then they should present their theory & expect said theory to be examined & questioned or challenged by others who don't hold their belief.

Saying "I don't debate with those trapped at this level. You are not ready for the truth. When you are, it will open up to you." amounts to claiming "I have proof of this belief, but as you disagree with me I'm not going to tell you what these proofs are".


If you do not have their experience, how can you have their beliefs?


I can't. But if they have unfakeable ( and clear, not vague) evidence of alien involvement I'd love to know what it is. Like the poster on Mulder's office wall says ( if I remember right) "I want to believe". So show me.


You know, sometimes it takes believing in something, before ya can see it.


Self-delusion is one option, I suppose.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 1073
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History
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/5/2010 10:58:47 AM
You know, sometimes it takes believing in something, before ya can see it. quote

believe it or not, we all do that!
 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 1075
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/6/2010 12:37:47 AM
http://www.archaeologydaily.com/news/201002173333/Prehistoric-UFO-and-ET-images-found-in-remote-cave-in-India.html


Prehistoric UFO and ET images found in remote cave in India E-mail
February, 17 2010

This page is viewed 77678 times

Rajasthan Times

A group of anthropologists working with hill tribes in a remote area of India have made a startling discovery: Intricate prehistoric cave paintings depicting aliens and UFO type craft.


Check out the rest of the story and the pictures posted. Very interesting.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 1076
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/6/2010 1:17:09 AM
I smell Von Daniken style fraud...



Local Archaeologist, Mr Wassim Khan, has personally seen the images. He claims that the objects and creatures seen in them are totally anomalous and out of character when compared to other, already discovered, examples of prehistoric cave art depicting ancient life in the area. As such he believes that they might suggest beings from other planets have been interacting with humans since prehistoric times: Adding weight to the 'ancient astronaut theory' which postulates that human civilization was established with the assistance of benevolent space-faring aliens.


The local archaeologist speculated this did he? *hauling out Occam's Razor for a bit of close cutting*

So what's more plausible?



He claims that the objects and creatures seen in them are totally anomalous and out of character when compared to other, already discovered, examples of prehistoric cave art depicting ancient life in the area.


Is it more likely that this art, which looks not only out of place but in far better condition, is 21st century fraud in the style of previous ancient astro-nut clowns like Von-Fraudikin, or that indeed, it is depictions of alien space vehicles, yadayada?



A clear image of what might be an alien or ET in a space suit can be seen in one cave painting along with a classical flying saucer shaped UFO that appears to be either beaming something down or beaming something up, in what might be an ancient UFO abduction scenario. A force-field or trail of some sort is seen at the rear of the UFO.

Also visible is another object that might depict a wormhole, explaining how aliens were able to reach Earth. This image may lead UFO enthusiasts to conclude that the images might have been drawn with the involvement of aliens themselves.



It's stuff like this that really does muddy the waters. At least something like the Dogon's in Africa seems mysterious, interesting and unearthly and somehow really buried in culture and tradition...obscure and hard to detect traces of the hand of a fake. This just screams "look at me" and all but has the artists tag on it.

Nothing personal...I want to believe. But not like this. Give me data...I cannot build bricks with straw.
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 1077
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/6/2010 6:31:49 AM
What is with the tin foil hat refrences ? I saw that maddow lady jokingly put one on and not to sound like an idiot i do not get the inferance of the sybol of a tin foil hat.

Is it suppose to be some refrence to preventing someone from reading you mind or something?

Kinda seems pointless if that is what it is trying to prevent. Fill your tub up with water and use a tunning fork on one side of the tub with tin foil in the middle and a wave form collector on the other side. Not like tin foil prevents reverbarations.

We are made of water, the air surrounding you is filled with water molacules, The air is connected and or touching streams,rivers, lakes and oceans. The space between those molacues are elastic thus act as amplifiers.

So I fail to see what a tin foil hat would prevent.

Think of yourself as a molacule walking about this planet for a moment. The air around you would be the space between. The space between contains the built up energy for transferance.

Ever watched the movie finding nemo?

"Taking on the jellies" is a good example of this effect.


Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?


Humans ARE the aliens on this planet.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 1080
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/6/2010 10:59:13 AM


Do have a good laugh if you want to.

I do suggest you consider the whole issue with an open mind.


I just love the assumption that people have when confronted with healthy skepticism that they are the torchbearers for truth and keepers of the "big secret" and that no one else could possibly have read all of the information they have on these issues and yet have come away with a differing opinion.

Oh yes, if we disagree we must all be skeptics of the level of Klass or Randi...

Puh-lease. Where's the "open mind" being spoken of? Black-white dichotomy anyone? It's either all "star races, grays, reptiloids, and nordics" or hard skeptic debunkers and their bland world?

Some of us believe in a variety of possibilities...maybe just not the ones you subscribe to and prefer facts and solid evidence to wild conjecture while still keeping our options open.

I suggested in my post "what seems more plausible?" Occam's Razor tells us that we do not need to multiply entities unnecessarily. If there are better more naturalistic explanations for things, we do not need to make up science-fiction or supernatural ones.

The best example of an alien visitor I have heard yet that gave rise to life on earth is panspermia via a chunk of Martian meteor.

Aside of that, encounters with aliens are best explained, in my opinion, by Jaques Vallee and C.G. Jung as combination of mental and or spiritual phenomenon, dredged up out of the collective unconscious, given shape by the current Zeitgeist...fairy kidnappings in the past...alien abductions during the atomic age. Plenty enough mystery in that to be explored and it makes it no less interesting or worthy of study. There's still a phenomenon occurring and still affecting people.

As to the rest, I suggest people read "A culture of conspiracy: apocalyptic visions in contemporary America" by Michael Barkun to see why the alien conspiracy stuff is mostly fabricated whole out of 19th century and early 20th century pulp fiction, and actually more disturbingly has become linked to other conspiracy junk including via people like David Icke to the racist subculture in America to junk like the Protocols of Zion and Illuminati nonsense and how conspiratorial thinking becomes so muddled.

What If... Kull The Conqueror, Weird Tales, H.P. Lovecraft and 19th century Theosophy had more to do with shaping modern ideas of alien conspiracies than true believers would like to admit? The truth is in the pulps, people!
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 1081
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/6/2010 11:44:12 AM

At least something like the Dogon's in Africa seems mysterious, interesting and unearthly and somehow really buried in culture and tradition...obscure and hard to detect traces of the hand of a fake.



Dogon shame

Did ancient gods from the Sirius star system visit an African tribe 5,000 years ago? New evidence deals a devastating blow to what was considered to be the best case for extraterrestrial visitation.

Philip Coppens
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The story that the Dogon, a tribe in Mali, West Africa, had possessed in their antiquity extraordinary knowledge of the star system Sirius achieved worldwide publicity in 1976 through Robert Temple’s extraordinary book The Sirius Mystery. It was compellingly argued and became one of the most influential books of the 1970s ‘ancient astronauts’ genre.

Sirius is the brightest star in the sky, a star that became the marker of an important ancient Egyptian calendar, and a star that is said to be at the centre of beliefs held by the Freemasons. According to some cultures, Sirius is where the forefathers of the human race might have originated.
Temple claimed that the Dogon knew about two smaller stars that are closely related to Sirius – Sirius B and Sirius C. The mystery was how they had obtained this knowledge, as these companion stars cannot be seen by the unaided eye. Temple’s solution referred to legends of a mythical creature, the god Oannes, who might have been an extraterrestrial, described as descending to Earth from the stars to bring civilising wisdom to the Dogon forefathers.

In 1998, Temple republished the book with the subtitle “new scientific evidence of alien contact 5,000 years ago.” The book’s reputation was first dented in 1999, when Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince published The Stargate Conspiracy, in which they allege that Temple’s thinking had been heavily influenced by his mentor, Arthur M. Young. Young was a fervent believer in “the Council of Nine,” a mysterious group of channelled entities that claim to be the nine creator gods of ancient Egypt. ‘The Nine’ became part of the UFO and New Age mythology and many claim to be in contact with them. ‘The Nine’ also claim to be extraterrestrial beings from the star Sirius. In 1952, Young was one of nine people present during the “first contact” with the ‘Council’, an event initiated by Andrija Puharich, the man who brought Israeli spoonbender Uri Geller to America.

In 1965, Arthur Young gave Robert Temple a French article on the secret star lore of the Dogon, an article written by two French anthropologists Marcel Griaule and Germaine Dieterlen. In 1966, Temple – then aged 21 – became Secretary of Young’s Foundation for the Study of Consciousness. In 1967, Temple began work on the thesis that became The Sirius Mystery. As Picknett and Prince have been able to show, Temple’s arguments are often based on erroneous readings of encyclopædia entries and misrepresentations of ancient Egyptian mythology. They conclude that Temple was very keen to please his mentor, who believed in extraterrestrial beings from Sirius.

Though Temple’s work was challenged, at its core lay the original anthropological study of the Dogon by Griaule and Dieterlen, who describe the secret knowledge of Sirius B and Sirius C in their own book The Pale Fox. But now, in another recent publication – Ancient Mysteries by Peter James and Nick Thorpe – this “mystery” is also uncloaked as a hoax or a lie perpetrated by Griaule.

To recapitulate: Griaule claimed to have been initiated into the secret mysteries of the male Dogon, during which they allegedly told him of Sirius (sigu tolo in their language) and its two invisible companions. In the 1930s, when their research was carried out, Sirius B was known to have existed, even though it was only photographed in 1970. It was very unlikely that the Dogon had learned of this star’s existence from Westerners prior to the visit by Griaule and Dieterlen.

Griaule and Dieterlen first described their findings in an article published in French in 1950, but they included no comment about how extraordinary the Dogon knowledge of the ‘invisible companions’ was. This step was taken by others, particularly Temple, in the Sixties and Seventies. To quote Ancient Mysteries: “While Temple, following Griaule, assumes that to polo is the invisible star Sirius B, the Dogon themselves, as reported by Griaule, say something quite different.” To quote the Dogon: “When Digitaria (to polo) is close to Sirius, the latter becomes brighter; when it is at its most distant from Sirius, Digitaria gives off a twinkling effect, suggesting several stars to the observer.” This description of a very visible effect causes James and Thorpe to wonder – as anyone reading this should do – whether to polo is therefore an ordinary star near Sirius, not an invisible companion, as Griaule and Temple suggest.

The biggest challenge to Griaule, however, came from anthropologist Walter Van Beek. He points out that Griaule and Dieterlen stand alone in their claims about the Dogon secret knowledge. No other anthropologist supports their opinions. In 1991, Van Beek led a team of anthropologists to Mali and declared that they found absolutely no trace of the detailed Sirius lore reported by the French anthropologists. James and Thorpe understate the problem when they say “this is very worrying.” Griaule claimed that about 15 per cent of the Dogon tribe possessed this secret knowledge, but Van Beek could find no trace of it in the decade he spent with the Dogon. Van Beek actually spoke to some of Griaule’s original informants; he noted that “though they do speak about sigu tolo [interpreted by Griaule as their name for Sirius itself], they disagree completely with each other as to which star is meant; for some, it is an invisible star that should rise to announce the sigu [festival], for another it is Venus that, through a different position, appears as sigu tolo. All agree, however, that they learned about the star from Griaule.” Van Beek states that this creates a major problem for Griaule’s claims.

Although he was an anthropologist, Griaule was keenly interested in astronomy and had studied it in Paris. As James and Thorpe point out, he took star maps along with him on his field trips as a way of prompting his informants to divulge their knowledge of the stars. Griaule himself was aware of the discovery of Sirius B and in the 1920s – before he visited the Dogon – there were also unconfirmed sightings of Sirius C.
The Dogon were well aware of the brightest star in the sky but, as Van Beek learned, they do not call it sigu tolo, as Griaule claimed, but dana tolo. To quote James and Thorpe: “As for Sirius B, only Griaule’s informants had ever heard of it.” Was Griaule told by his informants what he wanted to believe; did he misinterpret the Dogon responses to his questions? Either way, the original purity of the Dogon-Sirius story is itself a myth as it is highly likely that Griaule contaminated their knowledge with his own.

With this, the Dogon mystery comes crashing down. For more then 20 years, The Sirius Mystery has influenced speculation about the possibility that our ‘forefathers’ came from the stars. In his 1998 revised edition, Temple was quick to point out the new discussions in scientific circles about the possible existence of Sirius C, which seemed to make Griaule’s claims even more spectacular and accurate. But it is apparent that Temple was not aware of Van Beek’s devastating research.

From the findings of Van Beek and the authors of Ancient Mysteries, it is clear that Griaule himself was responsible for the creation of a modern myth; one which, in retrospect, has created such an industry and near-religious belief that the scope and intensity of it can hardly be fathomed. Nigel Appleby – whose book Hall of the Gods was withdrawn from publication – has admitted to being tremendously influenced by Temple’s Sirius Mystery. He has written of Temple’s belief that present-day authorities are unwilling to set aside the blinkers of orthodoxy, unable to admit the validity of anything that lies outside their field or that offers a challenge to the status quo. Appleby also believes there exists a modern arrogance that cannot countenance the idea that ancient civilisations might have been scientifically superior.

But it seems that Griaule, a scientist, wanted to attribute to earlier civilisations more knowledge than they actually possessed. Credulous scholars, like Young and Temple, were taken in and through them a whole generation has swallowed the false mythology of aliens from “the Dark Sirius Companion.”
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 1082
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/6/2010 11:49:34 AM

Do you really believe every single person coming forward is caught in fairytales or delusions or drugs or something causing them to think they see UFOs


I'm sure lots of people see UFOs every night. But UFO stands for "Unidentified Flying Object", it isn't verbal shorthand for "Extraterrestrial craft". Seeing something in the sky you can't identify doesn't mean it's an alien vehicle ( or probe). It simply means you see something in the sky you can't identify.

If you see point of light & don't know what it is then the fact you don't know what it is makes concluding it's an extraterrestrial object a huge stretch.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 1083
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/6/2010 12:15:18 PM

Dogon shame

Did ancient gods from the Sirius star system visit an African tribe 5,000 years ago? New evidence deals a devastating blow to what was considered to be the best case for extraterrestrial visitation.


You'll note the use of the word "seems" in my statement... thanks for printing the information on the Dogons all the same. That the Dogon phenomenon is a fraud is not new to me, but it may be to others.

Also take note of my mention of Jaques Vallee who used to be an ardent believer in the reality of UFOs as a real phenomenon and has since become convinced of their reality as a psychological phenomenon - no less "real" as something "happening" to a person - but not real as in having necessary extension in three dimensional consensus reality.

I cannot recommend enough Barkun's book on conspiratorial thinking as a tool both when reading these forums and as a handy "self-check" and "baloney-detector" to see if you have allowed yourself to fall prey to any of the kind of fuzzy thinking that permeates conspiracy thinking.
 susan_cd
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 1084
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/6/2010 2:12:29 PM

You'll note the use of the word "seems" in my statement... thanks for printing the information on the Dogons all the same. That the Dogon phenomenon is a fraud is not new to me, but it may be to others.


I wasn't suggesting you believed the Dogon story, but that story is so easy to stumble across & it's debunking by comparison usually requires some searching that I figured I'd post it for the unaware. Of course most believers in strange phenomena or ET visitations aren't interested in looking for anything that questions their cherished beliefs.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 1086
Humans created by Aliens: Plausible theory?
Posted: 3/6/2010 4:46:00 PM


I wasn't suggesting you believed the Dogon story, but that story is so easy to stumble across & it's debunking by comparison usually requires some searching that I figured I'd post it for the unaware. Of course most believers in strange phenomena or ET visitations aren't interested in looking for anything that questions their cherished beliefs.


Cheers Very glad you brought up the details and again much obliged...I agree the details need to be widely known, much like those of Von Daniken forging the alien artifacts (Shown on UK television in the Horizon, BBC documentary, "The Case of the Ancient Astronauts," first aired 3/8/78).

There is more than enough wondrous and amazing in humanity's development and, I am sure you'll agree, that we don't need to add a mythical element to it whether it is gods, devils, reptile men of Valusia, or gray alien bugaboos from Sitchin X - the "brown star" ...somewhere around Uranus (so that's why they do that to us...that makes much more sense now )
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