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Joined: 10/22/2008
Msg: 10
Holding OutPage 2 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
Well, I agree with the poster who thinks you are not quite there yet.

It's one thing to understand your interests, what makes you tick and find fortune and be self-sufficient. It's another thing entirely to be secure and independent in a spiritual manner.

You will find upon further reflection that everyone has the capacity to care, etc. You have to be willing to find it in each person you meet. It's there buried down deep inside all of us. Sometimes you have to put in the effort to unlock it or to change the way you perceive a person.

Not everyone is going to have the same personality and act the same way on the surface. So standards have little to do with anything, compatibility does. When you find someone you click with, you will also find everything else.

It doesn't seem you have yet reached that level of maturity yet.
Joined: 8/10/2004
Msg: 11
Holding Out
Posted: 11/29/2008 9:26:26 AM
Some people miss a very big big realism.

ME ME ME ...... it is all about me.

What about the other person that you ....... umm lowered your standards for ?

What about the fact that you are being unfair to them ?


If you have realistic standards ........ you are being fair to yourself and considerate of others.


NOTICE TO EVERY FEMALE IN THE WORLD > never ever settle for me.
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 12
view profile
Holding Out
Posted: 11/29/2008 9:43:16 AM
My response to this is always... I'll settle for love.

I'm far from perfect and so is my sweetie... we're regular human beings with our faults and foibles. To get along, obviously we have to compromise. (I don't like the word 'compromise'... much prefer collaboration... but most people don't get the distinction.) EVERY couple has to compromise. I doubt it is even possible to get the usual stand-by of "I don't want perfect - I want perfect for me."

Thing is... I accept who my sweetie is... his greatness and his weakness. Thankfully he also accepts mine... even seems more amused and supportive of my foibles than irritated or impatient by them. And I treasure his support. I love how he understands when I've gone rattling off on something that I'm being me and handling it how I handle it... he can give me the space and acceptance to be who I am. I believe I give him the same gifts. In fact I see a number of changes in me through loving him. I'm much more willing to take emotional risk because I know he accepts me so totally.

I think the thing to focus on is how well you relate with someone. My sweetie and I seem to slide into step with each other effortlessly.
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 16
view profile
Holding Out
Posted: 11/29/2008 10:16:50 AM
Depends on what you are giving up and how important it is to you. How much does the difference between what you want and what you can get, effect you? Goals, morals, behaviors, beliefs...those are probably not good things to settle on, I mean if you want a man who goes to church with you but you marry an atheist, then you have purposely set yourself up for resentment, but if you don't care much about him going to church with you then it might not be a big deal. Figure out what your boundaries are and why you have them, why they are important and then go from there.
Joined: 3/21/2008
Msg: 18
view profile
Holding Out
Posted: 11/29/2008 10:20:00 AM
I have learned, over the last howevermany years of being single, that I do myself a disservice if I lower my standards.

There are certain qualities I want in my partner, and sometimes life indicators (job, living arrangements, to cite your examples) are a good way to get insight into those qualities.

If you find that a man fires on, say, 5 of 6 cylinders... take the time (a date or two?) to see if there's something there.

In my experience, I spend a couple of dates with a nice person, but confirm to myself that my gut instinct was right.

All that being said. Don't settle.
What is important to you, is important to you, and it really doesn't matter what anyone else's opinion of that list is. It isn't THEIR relationship.

Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 19
Holding Out
Posted: 11/29/2008 10:20:21 AM
1) decide what is most important. How much respect do you want? How afraid are you to be alone?

2) realize no matter what you choose, you'll either not get enough of the right guys, or you won't get enough of the right guys. The difference between the two, is how many dates you get--low standards get you more, higher get you less. But either way, finding a great fit is about the same.

that's the middle ground.
Joined: 10/22/2008
Msg: 22
Holding Out
Posted: 11/29/2008 11:04:31 AM
Perhaps instead of the word maturity you prefer actualization but they can both mean the same as long as you perceive them in a positive nonjudgmental fashion. So it all circles back to perception again.

I love this quote I heard that I'll paraphrase "when you change the way you look at something, that something you look at changes".

The litmus test of living on one's own is probably not a fair one. Perhaps his mother is living with him? He will eventually inherit the house so he might be there for her as a supportive son. Some men are strong enough to do that, it takes a certain amount of inner strength because like you, society looks down on people that do that. It takes real character to still live in the same household but in some cultures the entire family unit lives together. So you should take that into consideration, perhaps eliminate that off your list of criteria.

It seems that perhaps you are avoiding looking below the surface and using these distractions to sabotage potential meaningful relationships. People that live with parents might have deeper commitment and compassion. Perhaps these qualities are lacking within you.
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 24
view profile
Holding Out
Posted: 11/29/2008 11:57:37 AM
Standards are fine as long as you aren't looking for perfection. No one is perfect. Plus it also depends on how superficial and shallow the standards are.
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 25
Holding Out
Posted: 11/29/2008 12:15:23 PM

Perhaps I just am not giving some men an even and fair try.

Ehh...another one of those phrases used that makes me *cringe*.

When I think of taking a chance, I think lotto ticket. There's just something that seems almost degrading...."hey I'll give you a shot"!

I agree with others that I don't think you're quite there yet. It's fine to ask for and listen to what others think but in the end, what you decide is up to you to define for yourself.

I think it's a matter of balancing "dealbreakers" (things you can't or won't accept) with
wants/needs (thinks you either desire or require).

You could come up with a list of both but it's unlikely anyone would match up any given "list" totally. It'd be a lot easier if it were that simple.
Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 26
view profile
Holding Out
Posted: 12/19/2008 3:00:04 AM
in my mind, standards are set by the food and drug administration. as long as he's organic and within my means, has a soul and we have chemistry, i figure it's a good start and i promise not to "consume" him.

i tend to be one of those people who competes with herself and honors a mutual journey. i like interdependence and collaboration and passion in all things that i do. i also want joy and to be with nature. i'd like a partner to share all that with. it's margo, does your man have any blood relatives in california (or heck, willing to travel?), between the ages of 57 and 62? sounds to me, like you are one lucky woman and he is one lucky man. also sounds like you've put together a great recipe.

Joined: 8/27/2008
Msg: 31
Holding Out
Posted: 12/19/2008 2:32:58 PM

I have been told that too by many of my friends saying that I'm too picky.
Then they're not true friends. Friends are supportive. Unless you asked for their opinion, and then that is your problem...don't ask for answers you don't want to hear or aren't likely to take action on.
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 32
Holding Out
Posted: 12/19/2008 3:00:08 PM

Msg: 1 -- Find your own self worth before trying to find it in a

The discussion SHOULD stop here, because within your statement you see
the KEY to your personal happiness.

So, here I am 41. I've finally found my own self worth. I know who I
am and what I want. The problem is sometimes I think my standards are
now too high.

Therein lies your issue; PATIENCE. Whatever you desire is NOT beyond
the ream of possibility, but it MAY be beyond your ENDURANCE, or

I've always settled before & tried to live w/things that bug me as I
know my partners have also done w/me. Obviously, settling hasn't
worked well.

My advice; DON'T settle. If you do, your life will be FAR more
miserable than it is now. Stick to your guns. Settle for NOTHING. If
you settle for LESS than you want, fidelity will become a HUGE issue,
either with you OR your mate.

Now I have friends tell me I need to lower my standards
and expectations some!

Yeah, I DARE you to do THAT!!!! A spouse or SO condemned to live up to
YOUR expectations (OR MINE) is FOREVER condemned to mutual
disappointment. PLEASE, I **BEG** you, don't inflict THAT on ANYONE. I
break off QUICKLY when I become aware that a woman is not willing or
able to sustain my expectations. I advise YOU to do the same. To NOT
recognize incompatibility and NOT end the relationship upon detection
of such is simply CRUELTY to your unsuspecting mate.

ALWAYS be OPEN and above-board regarding your desires. You OWE that to
the one who casts their TOTAL life on you, as do I.
Joined: 8/27/2008
Msg: 38
Holding Out
Posted: 12/19/2008 6:52:11 PM

If you are a woman above the age of 23 or a man above the age of 28, your value drops by approximately five percent per year.
There you go again, Smjle/Kelley-1989. Where DO you get these outrageous statistics?
Joined: 7/18/2007
Msg: 43
Holding Out
Posted: 12/20/2008 2:07:00 AM
"If you are a woman above the age of 23 or a man above the age of 28, your value drops by approximately five percent per year. A man's value may drop less rapidly. A woman of 32 is only worth half what she was at age 22 and not more than 1/4th at age 40. I know this and that is why, if I'm not married sooner, I'm getting married at age 22. I will take my best offer because I know if I wait another year, I will have to settle for less."

Value? Interesting concept that you know.

Human life and relationships are not akin to depreciation, per say, like used office equipment that you may or may not claim on your tax returns.

It's important to honor the self at all stages in life, and to comprehend that we that we are desirable at all ages. Adopting this rather limited and calculated belief in the human process, we may find ourselves quite disappointed when the world doesn't work out quite like we had planned.

Simply put, the future isn't carved in stone. We can't predict that the ideal partner we choose to marry at 22 won't die, or be killed in an accident, or run off with his best friend, or trade us off on a younger model, for instance.

Your formula may work for you at this tender age, but I highly doubt it is one that you will continue to adhere to as your face starts to wrinkle, and you get loose in the joints my dear. You will "value" yourself more.
Joined: 8/27/2008
Msg: 44
Holding Out
Posted: 12/20/2008 8:15:33 AM

10of6, they are observations and conclusions of mine and some very intelligent people. They are certainly not outrageous. You should consider them close approximations. Therefore, you have my permission to differ some with the ages and percentages but the principal is spot on.
Smjle/Kelley, then why didn't you say this from the beginning, instead of displaying a ludicrous application of statistics to [your] perceptions. If it's empirical, that's one thing; if it's anecdotal, that's yet another. They are RARELY the same.

I'm pretty literal, pretty linear, so I'm going to hold people who make bold statements to at least provide responsible references to back up their claims. I've also got a heapin' helpin' of common sense to balance out my dweebiness, so I can't be bamboozled from that aspect, either.
Joined: 9/16/2007
Msg: 45
view profile
Holding Out
Posted: 12/20/2008 9:24:11 AM
Geez, can't anyone even do math (not "statistics") at the high school level anymore?

(Kelley-1989) If you are a woman above the age of 23 ... your value drops by approximately five percent per year. ... A woman of 32 is only worth half what she was at age 22 and not more than 1/4th at age 40.

Actually, the rates of drop would be appreciably higher than 5% per year, as I'll now show.

The two scenarios in the second half of the statement imply the following rates:

1) Age 32: 6.70% drop/year -- because (1.0 - 0.0670)^10 = 0.50 = 50%

2a) Age 23: 7.83% drop/year -- because (1.0 - 0.0783)^17 = 0.25 = 25%
2b) Age 22: 7.41% drop/year -- because (1.0 - 0.0742)^18 = 0.25

There are two options for #2 because it's not exactly clear from the wording whether the basis is meant to be age 22 or age 23.

A very rough average would be 7% per year, maybe a little higher.

So it's even worse than Kelley-1989 describes, by 40% or more.

However, I hasten to point out that her numbers are basically backed up by marriage rate data. For example, take a look at and you'll see the marriage rate for women age 40-44 is roughly 1/4th (24.5%) what it is for women age 20-24, while the rate at age 30-34 is down about 45% from the age 20-24 rate.
Joined: 1/19/2008
Msg: 50
view profile
Holding Out
Posted: 12/20/2008 7:43:15 PM
But if you find that "one person" what is to say that he won't consider you to be HIS one ideal person? That is what throws me on "holding out."
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