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 Ethnic-Girl
Joined: 11/9/2008
Msg: 29
The Universe is both possible and impossible.Page 3 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Vancer and desertrhino you guys are defeated!
Bright1Raziel ,
The counting number is pure genius I have nothing to say except come here
what you said about the end of the universe is too scary to my feminine emotionality though
I am not so loyal to the theory of an infinite universe anymore; I just have some more questions before I switch to the finite one.

1. If the outermost of the balloon reaches nothing, then is this un-pop-able balloon extending or being stretched to its own infinite size?

2. Can space turn nothing into something? But Gottfried Leibniz stated “"space is that which results from places taken together" what do you say about that?

3. If the lead edge is expanding into nothing at speed of light that doesn’t accelerate then it must be moving with a constant velocity, doesn’t that make the speed of light infinite? Since there is nothing to either accelerate or decelerate it?
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 30
The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/4/2008 3:58:16 PM
2. Can space turn nothing into something? But Gottfried Leibniz stated “"space is that which results from places taken together" what do you say about that?


This is not a very easy concept to grasp, but let's use your balloon analogy. The surface of a balloon is a two dimensional space. The area of the surface is given by A = 4pi r^2, but the ``center'' of the balloon is not a part of the balloon. If you are a two dimensional being and your ``universe'' is the surface of the balloon, then as the balloon expands, every point on the balloon moves away from every other point. The surface of the balloon is the ``space'' of this universe. You might be tempted to say that there must be a third dimension that defines the space into which the balloon expands, but that is only because of your familiarty with the 3 spatial dimensions of our universe. What you are picturing is a two-dimensional space embedded in three dimensions. But, the two-dimensional space does not need three dimesions to define it and need not be embedded into a larger space.

We now apply the same argument to 3 dimensions. Every point in three dimensions is moving away from every other point. If the universe is closed, then no matter what direction to travel, you can travel in a straight line and you will always end up at the same spatial point you started if you travel for a long enough time. There is no boundary (or edge), so you can't reach the ``edge.'' There is also no center.

You might imagine a 4th spatial dimension into which the 3 dimensions are imbedded to try carrying the balloon analogy further, but that doesn't work. If you imagine four spatial dimensions, then you have to imbed those four dimensions into a fifth, etc. You might as well just stop the infinite tower of turtles and accept the idea that an N-dimension space need not be embedded into an N+1 dimensional space.

Quite simply put, the expansion of the universe IS the creation of the spacetime of the universe.

BTW - you'll go crazy if you try to figure out some way to picture ``nothing,'' so don't do that.

 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 31
The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/4/2008 7:46:03 PM
The Universe Exists, that means it has always existed. We mark time. Time has meaning to us, but not to the universe.

Its the old "Does a tree make noise as it is falling if no one is around to hear"?

Does the Universe mark time after we become extinct. to what model?
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 32
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The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/5/2008 9:28:30 PM
wicked, you *do* also speak English, I imagine...?
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 35
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The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/7/2008 7:12:36 AM

but im rambling at this poiint i think lol


Rambling, not making any sense whatsoever, and failing to use any sort of punctuation. None of those are conducive to actual communication.
 bob414141
Joined: 2/2/2006
Msg: 36
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The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/9/2008 10:18:28 AM
***the universe has only been around for a finite amount of time it is constrained to a finite size.

That is impossible because it would have had appear out of nothing. Nothing cannot make something.

Unless you claim God created it. However, I have a difficult time with that because I see no evidence. Besides, it only makes it more complicated. Now instead of explaining why the the universe, we have the problem of explaining "why God?" Then we must ask what created God and so on to infinity.

It is not possible to seperate God from the universe or the universe from God. The Universe has always existed and always will. Time and space only exist periodically, they begin with a big bang and end when the manifested Universe has ceased to exist. Between big bangs there is a period of inactivity lasting the length of the manifested Universe. This goes on forever not only on our plane of existence but on countless other planes without end.

 bob414141
Joined: 2/2/2006
Msg: 37
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The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/9/2008 10:19:50 AM
***the universe has only been around for a finite amount of time it is constrained to a finite size.

That is impossible because it would have had appear out of nothing. Nothing cannot make something.

Unless you claim God created it. However, I have a difficult time with that because I see no evidence. Besides, it only makes it more complicated. Now instead of explaining why the the universe, we have the problem of explaining "why God?" Then we must ask what created God and so on to infinity.***

It is not possible to seperate God from the universe or the universe from God. The Universe has always existed and always will. Time and space only exist periodically, they begin with a big bang and end when the manifested Universe has ceased to exist. Between big bangs there is a period of inactivity lasting the length of the manifested Universe. This goes on forever not only on our plane of existence but on countless other planes without end.

 MisterStone
Joined: 11/28/2008
Msg: 38
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The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/9/2008 7:20:13 PM
"Time and space only exist periodically, they begin with a big bang and end when the manifested Universe has ceased to exist. Between big bangs there is a period of inactivity lasting the length of the manifested Universe. This goes on forever not only on our plane of existence but on countless other planes without end. "

Time came into existance with the universe. Which kind of makes your statement nonsensical.
 Daybud
Joined: 9/1/2007
Msg: 39
The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/12/2008 6:47:00 PM
I believe it did come from nothing. Do we fully understand the physics of nothing.

I believe the nothingness separated into polarities. Like a yin and yang thing.

I think the physical is a concentration of the polarized nothingness. It is still almost nothing if you look at it on an atomic level its mostly empty space but it is something to us.

I think though that the more interesting stuff is in the places in-between the nothing and the almost nothing of the physical universe. The energy fields of the spirit world. I guess heaven would be nice as well. I think there is a lot of almost nothing in heaven but it seems like something because it moves faster at a higher resonate frequency so even though there is a lot more energy there than the physical universe it does not move as slow and we do not get our souls trapped in that energy. I guess we wanted to come for the experience so its cool.
 fruitarian
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 40
The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/30/2008 9:05:46 PM
My answer to "Smile" that you are using flawed logic rather that seeing what the Universe really is. Why not consider that primary logic that is the mother of "cause and effect" and that to start did not t depend on the different properties of things, is the source of the Universe's reality and that primary logic simply obeys the rule that "everything can exist unless there is a reason why some thing cannot exist." Thus the state of the Universe at any time is the consequence of current deficiencies in cause and effect. However, if you add intelligence into the picture which allows many values of good and bad to exist and futuristic assessments of possibilities and there fore choice, then meanings are created, and allow perception of relative deficiencies of wanted "cause and effect "and the ability to change the future due to motive /desire to fix relative deficiencies. Hence the percievable truth: "Love is Needed" ~ and if the world doesn't get it then the effect will be real until there is a reason caused to exist that changes the effects (all the bad things existing) caused by a deficiency of Love.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 44
The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 1/26/2009 3:45:10 PM

Well, to add a bit more mystery - or information, perhaps! - to the puzzle, there IS possible evidence for other "universes" beyond our own. The movement of galaxy clusters cannot be explained by observable matter, dark matter, or dark energy, so there may be evidence of structures beyond our universe.


By definition, our universe consists of everything that could possibly have an affect on anything else. That obviously means the galactic rotation is influenced by something in this universe, by definition.

New Scientist is not the best source of scientific information. The articles tend to sacrifice accuracy for the sake of being flamboyant.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 45
The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 1/26/2009 3:53:49 PM

What we conceive today as possible and proven by scientific fact could not be conceived as possible or proven by scientific fact 1000 years ago. We are simply not able yet to explain such things.....some day we will be, or perhaps the reality is that there are some things that we will never be able to envision with the limits of who we are...perhaps we will need to evolve to a higher level of something over the next 1000 years or longer...


There is a considerable difference between science today and whatever it was 1000 years ago. Today, we define things precisely, so that there is no confusion about what we mean when we say ``mass,'' ``charge,'' ``spacetime.'' etc. 1000 years from now, that will not change any more than someone could ``discover'' that 2 + 2 = 5. What will change are the theories about those things. However, since the theories we have are known to be correct in the regimes they were created to explain, any theory developed 1000 years from now will still reduce to the theories we have today in the appropriate limit. That is a basic requirement for a scientific theory and it has been since the scientific method became the way people did science. That's why science has progressed as fast as it has in the last few hundred years relative to the 1000's of years prior to that.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 46
The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 1/26/2009 7:44:55 PM
Oh, dear goddess, someone understands my perplexity!

Now, solve it for me.
 bob414141
Joined: 2/2/2006
Msg: 48
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The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 2/2/2009 8:33:05 PM
The first law of thermodynamics is an expression of the more universal physical law of the conservation of energy.
Something does not come from nothing.

The Universe did not come from nothing. What" it" was before the big bang is beyound the knowledge of our present science. There must be a source of energy and information that has always existed and always will.
The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the universal law of increasing entropy, stating that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium. Therefore, if the universe always existed,
entropy would be at a maximum and life would not possible.

The universe that we all know and love will reach a point when antropy will be at a maximum and life as we know it will not be possible. But, that does not deny the possibility that what we call the universe is the only possible one. It can't be proved but the experience of the universe is of a cyclical nature. They are born in a big bang and exist for many billions of years and eventually die, only to reborn and begin anew.

Science is still in it's infancy. It is only now beginning to learn the laws of Physics. We have a long way to go.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 49
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The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 2/15/2009 10:00:33 AM
I thought it came from next to nothing.

the big bang.

I was warming up to that idea.

do things return to nothing, or at least very condenced, in black holes? theoretically of course.

sorry didnt read all of the posts.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 50
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I think the word we are stuggling with is improbable.
Posted: 2/16/2009 1:18:48 AM
Wouldnt galaxys have had to go faster than the speed of light to get where they are?
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 51
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I think the word we are stuggling with is improbable.
Posted: 2/16/2009 2:17:27 AM
I see [smell] where you are coming from, but that idea stinks!
 Tenacious T
Joined: 7/14/2008
Msg: 52
The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 2/16/2009 8:50:20 AM
Why do you ASSUME that something cannot come from nothing. I hope it is not because of your mind. Your mind came from the universe!
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 53
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The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/8/2009 5:41:25 PM
what you are saying, I think, is that there obviously were different laws in effect before creation,[take that last word anyway you want] and even for a short time after it all appeared. [big bang, little bang, spurt, or whatever]

another dimension, different rules.
 AtomicGogol
Joined: 4/4/2008
Msg: 54
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The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/10/2009 1:58:22 PM

The universe exist. Therefore, it is possible.


Without sounding like a cop-out, the universe can exist because it does. It's like the Babelfish argument from HHGG.


Since something cannot come from nothing, it is not possible for time, space, matter, or energy to exists. Therefore, it is not possible for universe to exist.


Virtual particle-antiparticle pairs are known to pop in and out of existence, and in the vicinity of a black hole, one falls in while another escapes, thus accounting for the infamous Hawking radiation around a black hole. This basically shows that, from our perspective, something can indeed come from nothing. If you want links to any of this info, I'll gladly help you out.


The universe could not have have always existed for a infinite length of time. Otherwise, since entropy is always increasing, it would have ran down to maximum entropy, and yet the only possibility is that the universe has always existed.


Our current understanding is that the universe is about 13.7 billion years old, so it hasn't existed forever. Since the universe is known to be expanding due to unknown forces, the uniformity of matter and energy will keep advancing until eventually (and I mean a VERY long time from now) everything will be evenly distributed with no matter or interaction between particles. The point is, the universe more than likely does have a beginning of sorts and will never have an end, even if nothing can exist in it by that time.
 coveredinpaint
Joined: 7/13/2009
Msg: 55
The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/10/2009 2:00:57 PM
Humans. So funny. You think that just because your life, and everything from your perspective has a beginning and an end, then ALL things must have the same type of linear beginning an ending. If you want to truly understand it, then don't think like a human. Think universally.
 AtomicGogol
Joined: 4/4/2008
Msg: 56
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The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/10/2009 2:05:47 PM
If you want to truly understand it, then don't think like a human. Think universally.


Um... what?
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 57
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The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/10/2009 5:11:05 PM
think, there is no real stuff, just energy.

ok, other than energy, there is no real stuff.

help
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 58
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The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/10/2009 5:12:41 PM
think, there is no real stuff, just energy.

ok, other than energy, there is no real stuff.

help
 AtomicGogol
Joined: 4/4/2008
Msg: 60
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The Universe is both possible and impossible.
Posted: 12/10/2009 8:07:26 PM

Clearly you're unfamiliar with Air Supply for they can make love out of nothing at all...out of nothing at all.


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