|RE: Message 132Page 7 of 9 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)|
|Rule number seven is the one that confuses me. If the COS (church of satan, not church of scientology ) doesn't believe in supernatural causation, why do they include a rule about acknowleging magic? |
This prompted me to write them:
I've just recently listened to the interview of High Priest Peter Gilmore (please excuse me if I got his title incorrect) and was intrigued by his claim that Satanism is essentially atheism mixed in with ritual and perhaps even theater.
I did a bit of poking around your website and eventually got to the 11 Satanic rules on earth. It seemed consistent with what was said in the interview but I was a bit hung up on rule seven (acknowledge the power of magic etc). I'm curious as to what is meant by this. Are we talking about real, paranormal magic or is this something more pragmatic and materialistic?
I'm asking from a place of curiousity, not critique of your ways.
The idea of acknowledging magic is solely meant for internal psychological integration, not for some paranormal or supernatural reasons. Playing one “game” and then contradicting it in other aspects of behavior can lead to certain forms of unease and emotional dissonance. Thus it is pragmatic, materialistic, and quite functionally apt – in our experience.
I'm not sure I completely understand the answer. I'm not certain what the "game" reference means. Any guesses?
|RE: Message 132|
Posted: 6/30/2008 11:26:58 PM
|scientology? i'm a /b/tard and i'm a part of anonymous' attacks against such a lame faith. Tommy should watch his back....|
Posted: 7/4/2008 10:00:31 AM
|It's hard to tell how many people on this thread have actually done some invocation workings . . . . |
Anyone who ventures forth and works with the thousands of powers, entities, gods, etc., realizes that they are dealing with a "real" power. Tfey are there, they exist, you just can't plug them into a wall and turn them on like a lamp. We could be addresses 35,000 Hindu gods/goddesses here . . . . . . .
That being said, that "power" can be used for positve and negative expression. Just like the heat for our homes can burn down the whole neighborhood. Personal responsibility is often the issue here. WHAT YOU DO COMES BACK TO YOU.
I don't care if you are praying in a church or doing a magic circle. If your needs are met you need to think about "the bank account in the sky" and be ready to serve in some capacity. This needs to be done with an open heart, too.
I've known of a lot occultist that have cooked themselves over the years because they were self-servicing ***holes. These are not folks that I hang out with.
A lot of Satanist cross over to the OTO, which appears to have stabilized itself over the years--at least that's what I've noticed with the Salem, MA group. I attribute a lot of the reduction of self-serving behavior at everyone else's expense, to Lon Milo DuQuette for being a loving reformer, author & teacher. He appears to be the most public persona with that organization.
Posted: 7/4/2008 10:21:12 AM
|Depends on how you view Satan. To me he is simply a fallen angel ..|
Posted: 7/4/2008 12:24:15 PM
To me he is simply a fallen angel ..
To me,he's just another character made of a composite of earlier pagan deities. Just like Jesus. Not real, exists only in the imagination.
Posted: 7/4/2008 7:10:00 PM
|Quite right .. a Pan figure if anything|
Posted: 7/4/2008 7:22:08 PM
Anyone who ventures forth and works with the thousands of powers, entities, gods, etc., realizes that they are dealing with a "real" power. They are there, they exist, you just can't plug them into a wall and turn them on like a lamp. We could be addresses 35,000 Hindu gods/goddesses here . . . . . . .
do these deities have any power over a child who is brought up to have no knowledge of or belief in them ,whatsoever?
|RE: Message 132|
Posted: 7/5/2008 12:33:34 AM
|As a LaVeyan Satanist I figure I'll put my attempt to explain the COS reply to im_literit.|
They said: The idea of acknowledging magic is solely meant for internal psychological integration, not for some paranormal or supernatural reasons.
Meaning: We have rituals and magic to provide a form of psychological self-help. If I am upset or very angered at something I will go to my ritual chamber and perform a destruction ritual, which si consdiered a form of 'lesser magic'.
They said: Playing one “game” and then contradicting it in other aspects of behavior can lead to certain forms of unease and emotional dissonance. Thus it is pragmatic, materialistic, and quite functionally apt – in our experience.
I'm not 100% sure, so don't pin me to this as fact, but I think by game he means action. If you do one thing and say another it isn't very helpful or beneficial. Its hypocritical and stupid.
For more information on magic in Satanism see this site: http://www.dpjs.co.uk/magic.html
It might even explain it better then I could.
|RE: Message 132|
Posted: 7/5/2008 6:16:21 AM
|I've experienced enough Magic to know most of it is just smoke and mirrors. 99.9% of the time, possibly less, its just self-delusion on the part of the practitioners. You can attribute it to cognitive bias, coincidence or any one of a thousand rational explanations. Most of its psychological, and that pretty much applies to any 'New Age' practices not just Satanism. The most real effects, be it beneficial or otherwise are felt by the actual practicioner hence the Voodoo practice of letting the victim know they're being cursed etc. Its the psychology of magic. The problem with using Satan as a focus for practice is that most people come from a Christian background and an upbringing of the western media. The books of Dennis Wheatley among others and films like the Exorcist. Pan wasnt specifically an evil deity, more a trickster figure and the traditional afterlife of the older religions wasnt necessarily one of punishment or reward. But Satan's character is invariably given as one of malevolent evil and trying to work with that kind of psychological image or 'energy' is going to have a negative affect on the practitioner.|
|RE: Message 132|
Posted: 7/5/2008 7:15:39 AM
|why do alot of people mix satanism up with paganism/wicca...? it is nothing to do with our religion or beliefs what so ever..in fact..satanism is an offshoot of christianity..most of us pagans dont even believe in satan or the devil..although we do believe in evil forces..forces of darkness..as opposed to what we worship..the forces of light...|
|RE: Message 132|
Posted: 7/7/2008 5:28:16 PM
|Pan was a fertility god... and the old gods were frequently not always benevolent. They had their dark sides.|
Magick is very real... but I think people mistake ritual for magick.. ritual is quite rightly a way to change your psychological state.. (and physical, as shown by experienced meditators in quite a few studies) which has many uses, but it's not magick... maybe one way to tap into it though - most new-agers are overly dramatic, and frequently not able to be objective. Not sure why. I think one of the misperceptions of magick is that it's something "special" that is only done by a few in very proscribed ways, but I think the real case is it is something that permeates life itself and everyone performs magick all the time.
I see magick as akin to (or the same as) the observer phenomena in quantum mechanics, just part of the way the universe works. Basically life is magick.. and the universe seems to be set up to respond to life. I reading a very interesting book right now called "Biocosm" which looks into the phenomena and research into the anthropic principles of the universe. I'm only just into it so can't paraphrase yet, but it's truly fascinating.
Posted: 6/6/2009 7:27:26 PM
I must admit I have found everyone's views and "knowledge" on Satanism to be quite fascinating, extremely entertaining, and for most part incorrect. This I attribute primarily to a LACK of knowledge on the subject. TRUE Satanism is beyond a religion. Sure, I did notice that there were a few facts stated in different posts that had a bit of truth to them, depending on which denomination or sect of Satanism you are referring to, but most of those I discredit as being TRUE Satanism. Satanism does not parallel christianity, it breaks the barriers of all of the lies and hypocrisies which surround it. Yes, a key point to TRUE Satanism is the complete and total abolishment of christianity, but you must first know and understand the origins of BOTH religions to see the truth as to WHY this is, although as I stated previously I do not see Satanism as a religion. It is beyond the moral and cosmic constraints and doctrine of a "religion".
I was once atheistic and considered myself to be of the LaVeyan philosophy and even called myself a member of the church of Satan, but that proved to be a stepping stone which helped me open my mind to something much greater, so I cannot speak ill of the LaVeyan philosophy, though I do not consider it to be TRUE Satanism. It is merely "humanism" with a "cool" name and theatrical twist to push the buttons of society. There are many flaws with the Satanic Bible just as there are with the christian bible.
I will be more than happy to discuss this topic personally if you have any questions, but TRUE Satanism is for the sinister elite, and I only share the knowledge I have obtained with those who have a true desire to know and learn. It is a truth that transcends "good" and "evil". Nothing to do with "trekkie" mentality or music or clothes or anything of material nature.
I will say that it's kind of a shame that there aren't any dating sites for Satanists. lol.
Posted: 6/6/2009 7:42:21 PM
Posted: 6/6/2009 8:07:21 PM
|Interesting bump. You realize that most of the people who originally responded have likely moved on?|
It' s a sort of logical flaw in the system. You have to search for old threads to bump, and then people respond to the OP instead of the bump.
I really don't claim to know Satanism. I sut relate to Satan being called "The father of lies" and "the great deciever." I have no desire to decieve anyone but for the purposes of protection or greater good. If Satanism understands the truth of lies, then perhaps it can a benefit to come. I am a Shamanist. I follow no one. I lead.
Posted: 6/7/2009 6:06:14 AM
|A true satanist? Like a true christian, a true atheist or a true scotsman.....An idealised fiction to support arguments of the fallacious variety.|
Posted: 6/7/2009 7:32:02 AM
Which makes me laugh, cuz being a Satanist isnt a bad thing....if you're being a REAL satanist and not what the judeo-christians label a satanist (anyone who doesnt believe in Christ and the lord saviour). What are your thoughts on Satanism?AFAIK, the word "Satan" COMES from Judeo-Xian views. So, if you don't believe that Judeo-Xian views are right, then to you, Satan doesn't exist. So how could any such person be a Satanist, anyway?
Posted: 6/7/2009 11:17:11 AM
|Mmmm, fresh troll!|
The term "satan" comes- more or less- from middle eastern judeo-christian tradition. The concept of a definite, composite adversary can be dated to Zarathustra. Mostly. The notion of a "bad" force to counter the "good" force goes back even further than that.
And as mentioned before, someone already called you on your blatant "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
So, to sum it up, AFAIK- Remove all doubt? You most certainly have. Congratulations.
Posted: 6/9/2009 11:11:27 AM
The term "satan" comes- more or less- from middle eastern judeo-christian tradition.
Partially correct. Satan comes from Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions is a more correct sentence.
Christianity has more in common with Islam than it does with Judaism. Practising religious Jews get quite offended when their religion is lumped together with Christianity of which they define as a deviation and thus contrary to their own truth.
Posted: 6/12/2009 4:31:22 PM
Partially correct. Satan comes from Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions is a more correct sentence.
No, it isn't. Islam is the "newest" monotheistic religion on the block, as it were (being founded somewhere around 612-635 AD, i.e. over 500 years after the emergence of Christianity as a distinct sect)- whereas the concept of a "bad force" that runs counter to the singular "good" of monotheism is considerably older- the first clear delineation of an "evil force" or "destructive force" as a counterpoint to a single, benevolent God comes from around 400-ish BCE- Angra Manyu, the "destructive spirit" in Zoroastrianism.
Thus, if an adversarial entity existed prior to Islam, lumping Islam in would be erroneous. Christian canon includes an adversarial figure, as does judaic canon- though the christian canon is considerably more specific. Thus, since it exists in both judaic and christian canon, it is judeo-christian. Even though it is more prominently mentioned in christian scriptures, it is not exclusively christian. Judaic canon and Christian canon describe the evil force as an entity (more so the christian canon), while Zoroastrian canon describes it as a condition, not an actual figure. Thus, Zoroastrianism cannot be included.
Since nobody on the forums wants to read a lengthy essay on the origins of satan- and I most definitely do not want to write one, as I'm on vacation- I added the phrase "more or less". Which in this case means, "there's a big long explanation for the topic I am addressing, but that big long explanation says practically the same thing, so it's not worth going into".
Posted: 6/13/2009 1:09:42 PM
|The thing is guys, the Satanic church doesn't really worship the Christian's paganized bogeyman...well there may be one or two branches of "literalistic" types out there but I think mainstream Satanists would view them as missing the boat...or not...maybe our thread bumper would contribute to that.|
Satanism is more a celebration of the impulse of self and recognition that - from their point of view - traditional religion has created a master/slave mentality. And as Milton's Lucifer puts it, "Better to rule in Hell than Serve in Heaven" so why not develop a philosophy around this. Some of the more paganist Satanists added elements of occult practices some more or less watered down as was mentioned earlier in the thread. Some view them as purely psychodrama type events, some view them as magick in the sense that something is happening beyond merely in their own mind. Some have personified the inimical spirits of ancient times and invoke or evoke them in such work such as Set or Loki or the Christian demons.
Satanists themselves do not "necessarily" acknowledge the reality of these things as anything other than mental constructs however...things that have uses and may be picked up and discarded when one is done with them.
In Judaism, the ha'satan (the origin of the phrase) is the adversary, the impulse to choose evil over good. It is also personified as an angel. It is made very clear in Judaism that this personified force of an angel is NOT given free will...no angels are in Judaism. They are all creations of Hashem. Only man has the will to choose between good and evil in the cosmology of Judaism and Hashem created all things, good and evil in the hopes that man will choose good.
Is this the original perspective. Hard to say. Religious Jews argue yes. Archaeologists argue no and suggest that the Hebrew culture was once henotheistic and before that polytheistic and a branch of Canaanite culture and viewed good and evil more like its neighbours.
Christianity seems to have inherited some of its notions of an independent Satan and a war in heaven and fallen angels from apocryphal literature written around the first few centuries, probably by the Gnostic Church. It sure isn't Judaism. Books like the Book of Enoch describe angels called the Nephilim teaching forbidden knowledge to mankind in a Prometheus like story and being cast into the pit and tortured (obvious Hellenistic influence here).
Posted: 6/13/2009 1:18:33 PM
|I find some of these dictionary responses hilarious.|
The term Christianity comes from "those who follow Jesus"
"Love they neighbor", Right?
"Judge not lest ye be judged," eh?
Do these sound like any Christians you have met? Recently?
(I know there are some)
Posted: 6/13/2009 2:10:58 PM
|Now now, lets be nice...these forums are quite atypical. I happened to spend most of yesterday drinking beer and watching Babylon 5 videos with a very educated and very well read Christian friend of mine with whom I engage in many a religious discussion.|
I think the caveats are there. Beer. Educated. Well read. Must be a Lutheran. Or maybe some kind of Irish Catholic. In this case a Lutheran. Those words of Jesus EXACTLY describe the kind of life they try to live. I don't think they are the exception. I just think we see a lot of squeaky wheels around here sometimes that think a differing opinion is an attack on core beliefs...and an inability to separate themselves from those beliefs long enough to carry on an adult conversation.
Posted: 6/13/2009 5:51:13 PM
There are many who try to follow the precepts and fail. Even most Christians admit that there are plenty of "Sunday Christians," who work on a quick route to hell during the week, but show up for church bright and early every Sunday.
Anyway, the point was that "Satanism" is simply a word for a belief that is practiced differently by different groups, and there is not a right way or wrong way to worship Satan. If there was a right way to worship wrong guy, would it make sense in the first place?
Posted: 8/30/2009 11:50:05 AM
|Having just become a Theistic Satanist and demonolator I have to say Satanism is very much not what the man in the street thinks it is. |
Most people's views are formed by films, rock bands, Anton Le-Vey's Church of Satan (who do not worship Satan) rather than the reality of it. I find it a rewarding and fulfilling path.
I just need to meet a nice satanist lady now :)
Posted: 9/12/2009 7:47:10 AM
It's cool when you are 14 to 16 but if you're still doing it in your mid 20's, then it's just plain sad. Grow some balls, become an Atheist and be done with it. I agree that it's really only cool for teenagers, or for people who still live like they're teenage hippies, as I knew quite a few. But once you become an atheist, you're not getting rid of your gods and masters. You're simply replacing them with big business, the media, and whoever is backing the President.
No gods, no masters.