Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > UK forums  > Gaza Massacre      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Buzzlightbeer
Joined: 6/2/2008
Msg: 226
Gaza MassacrePage 10 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)

Both he and I agree that the reactor had the potential to BECOME a 'factory', and that Israel was right to take preventative measures.


He neither states nor infers anything of the sort, YOU are stating that the 'reactor' had the potential to become a 'factory', the 'reactor' didn't have the potential to become a 'factory', the power station/power plant housing the 'reactor' and the land it was built on might have.

 jackjackt
Joined: 4/14/2007
Msg: 227
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/11/2009 6:41:12 PM
Those who refuse to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it
Please take some time to watch the following and comment.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 228
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 2:40:34 AM

If terrorists hide inside a school and use the children as shields that's wrong. However, bombing the school and killing everyone inside in order to kill the terrorists is also wrong.


Given the recent infantry advance by Israel, it is clear that the tanks were being used to silence all potential threats to the infantry.

So, the question of whether or not the tanks were in danger from destruction themselves becomes irrelevant - the tank commanders were making the area safe for the infantry. They were, therefore, correct in returning ALL enemy fire, regardless of the source or composition.

Responsibility for all Palestinian deaths lies with the terrorists....
 Buzzlightbeer
Joined: 6/2/2008
Msg: 229
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 6:13:07 AM

Given the recent infantry advance by Israel, it is clear that the tanks were being used to silence all potential threats to the infantry.


Sadly that might be true, the Israelis were killing children, personally I wouldn't see children as a potential threat but obviously the Israelis do.


So, the question of whether or not the tanks were in danger from destruction themselves becomes irrelevant


Not in the specific example of the attack on the UN school, as there was no infantry present, as you say the infantry advance is a recent event.


Responsibility for all Palestinian deaths lies with the terrorists....


The Israelis do have a lot to answer for...
 AlmaM
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 230
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 6:20:09 AM

Something not many of us knew, HAMAS is a creation of ISRAEL to counter Yasser Arafat and his PLO.


I actually mentioned this long ago on this thread
 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 231
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 7:20:03 AM
You have to be able to distinguish between the State of Israel and the Jewish people and also between Hamas and the Palestinian people in order to look at this situation objectively. I don't believe for one moment that the average Jewish citizen wants to see Palestinian civilians killed or that the average Palestinian want to see Jewish civilians die.

Granted the people elected their governments. However, governments don't always act in the best interests of their population once they obtain power and have their own political agendas. If a solution to this problem is left in the hands of Hamas and the state of Israel I can't see there ever being a peaceful solution which is why a UN monitored ceasefire is so desperately needed.
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 232
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 11:12:45 AM

personally I wouldn't see children as a potential threat but obviously
Israelis do.


I suppose you've never heard of children being trained as suicide bombers. The web contains a host of links on the subject - here's one from the Beeb:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1446003.stm

The Israelis, therefore, have good reason to fear Palestinian children!




the Israelis were killing children


There is a difference between 'killing children' and 'targeting children'.

http://www.beyondimages.info/b78.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/aug/20/israel1

The above links contain information which shows how the terrorists target children who are doing nothing more threatening than eating pizza, riding on buses....etc.




Not in the specific example of the attack on the UN school, as there was no infantry present, as you say the infantry advance is a recent event.


It depends on what one defines as 'infantry'.

We accept that there wasn't any Israeli infantry near the school at the time of the attack on the school, but it is clear from the following report that there were militias of some kind present:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUKN06430746

A UN official, John Ging, was present in the area.

"Asked whether Hamas militants were in the area of the Jabalya school at the time of the strike, Ging said it was the scene of clashes "so there's an intense military and militant activity in that area." "

So, he acknowledged that there were clashes taking place between the Israeli military and Palestinian militants in the area of the school. The report states that Ging claims that the Israeli shells landed on the perimeter of the school, presumably aimed at the militants who were there. And what could those 'militants' possibly doing near the crowd of people who were hoping to be safe outside the school building? Organising a football match for some light relief? No, as Ging pointed out, there was:

"intense.......militant activity"

Ging was based in Gaza at the time of the attack, so one can presume he knows what he was talking about. He also accepted that:

"So far we've not had violations by militants of our facilities," he said.

Which means that militants had not had access to any of the UN buildings which were damaged in various attacks - a fact confirmed in the report, which states that all Israeli bombs landed "near" UN buildings.

Another link confirms Ging's comments, and gives further information:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/06/israel.gaza/index.html

"The Israel Defense Forces said a mortar-firing operation and a pair of prominent Hamas operatives -- Imad Abu Askhar and Hassan Abu Askhar -- were at the occupied school hit Tuesday. The two were among the Hamas militants killed in the strike, an IDF statement said."

Presumably, these two were amongst the 'militants' to which Ging referred. This also explains the initial reports into the attack which claimed that there was no military equipment in the rubble - it would have been at the perimeter, where there weren't any buildings.




You have to be able to distinguish between the State of Israel and the Jewish people and also between Hamas and the Palestinian people in order to look at this situation objectively. I don't believe for one moment that the average Jewish citizen wants to see Palestinian civilians killed or that the average Palestinian want to see Jewish civilians die.


I agree, and that goes for every decent human being around the world.




However, governments don't always act in the best interests of their population once they obtain power and have their own political agendas.


Again, I agree.

Hamas and the other terrorist organisations are using the Palestinian people as human shields, and have demonstrated that every last Palestinian is a potential martyr to the 'cause' of removing the state of Israel from the map.
 Gaz01
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 233
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 11:50:31 AM
Those defending Israel I don't have issue with, however where I have issue is when Israelis using ban substances to kill innocent children and women. UN has condemned it nearly all the nations around the world has condemned Israel for there so called war. US obliviously compel to side with Israel no matter how right or wrong Israel is.
 Alf hucker
Joined: 9/23/2008
Msg: 234
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 11:56:28 AM

however where I have issue is when Israel is using ban substances to kill innocent children and women.


so its ok to kill them with" legal weapons " ???... I think not
 Buzzlightbeer
Joined: 6/2/2008
Msg: 235
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 12:14:26 PM






Given the recent infantry advance by Israel, it is clear that the tanks were being used to silence all potential threats to the infantry.


Sadly that might be true, the Israelis were killing children, personally I wouldn't see children as a potential threat but obviously the Israelis do.


I wouldn't see children as a potential threat but obviously the Israelis do.


I suppose you've never heard of children being trained as suicide bombers. The web contains a host of links on the subject - here's one from the Beeb:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1446003.stm

The Israelis, therefore, have good reason to fear Palestinian children!


the Israelis were killing children


There is a difference between 'killing children' and 'targeting children'.

http://www.beyondimages.info/b78.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/aug/20/israel1

The above links contain information which shows how the terrorists target children who are doing nothing more than eating pizza, riding on buses....etc.


Don't misquote me, I clearly stated my personal view, which is I wouldn't see children as a potential threat and kill them.




So, the question of whether or not the tanks were in danger from destruction themselves becomes irrelevant


Not in the specific example of the attack on the UN school, as there was no infantry present, as you say the infantry advance is a recent event.


It depends on what one defines as 'infantry'.


Not at all, the point of debate depends on the presence of Israeli infantry that could have been harmed when the tanks were attacked, but there wasn't any.
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 236
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 1:16:47 PM

Don't misquote me, I clearly stated my personal view, which is I wouldn't see children as a potential threat and kill them.


I never misquote anybody.....I use the quote facility to ensure that is their words I use.

Anyone who feels that I have misquoted them should report me.

If it helps, here's what I quoted - please indicate the section that is 'misquoted':



personally I wouldn't see children as a potential threat but obviously the Israelis do.


Yes, I'm aware that you stated your personal view about the potential threat of children, and that it differs from that of the Israelis. The reason being, of course, is that you seemed to be unaware of the fact that Palestinian children have been trained as suicide bombers for some considerable time. That's why I posted just one link to help you, and that's why I explained WHY Israelis see Palestinian children as potential threats.

Unless, of course, you don't believe that such training has occurred.....




Not at all, the point of debate depends on the presence of Israeli infantry that could have been harmed when the tanks were attacked, but there wasn't any.


I'm not sure what you mean by 'point of debate': I use the term 'infantry' to describe 'foot soldiers', even if they are in transporters of some kind.

The presence or absence of the Israeli infantry in the area of that school is irrelevant. We accept that they weren't present, so we can only assume that the 'militants' to which Ging referred were firing at other Israeli targets, which at that moment included Israeli forces in Gaza or Israeli citizens at home in Israel. Those militants were therefore legitimate targets of the tank crews and aircraft. The tanks were there to remove any potential threats to a possible infantry advance.

Ging has already stated that such a threat existed in the form of militants who were clashing with the Israeli military- are you questioning the accuracy of his comments?



where I have issue is when Israelis using ban substances to kill innocent children and women.


To which substances are you referring? I do wish you'd give more information in your posts.
 Gaz01
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 237
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 2:10:05 PM
Zeegary, discussion with you is futile because whatever you anyone say you would not agree due to your fascination with Israel can do nothing wrong "they are angel" and rest of the world is evil. How blind can you get, they killed children as old as 2 to 6 months to 5 to 10 years old. You are just making theses silly allegations to justify Israelis, which you cannot. Don't make fool out of yourself by saying that all Gazan or Palestinian children are terrorists...If all are not then why are they killing most of them. Do me a favour mate look into your child eyes(if you have one) then ask yourself as question would anyone would want to see their child get bombed and killed on the other hand if you don't have any, then I suppose you would not know what that means to be suffering parents.
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 238
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 2:28:11 PM

Zeegary, discussion with you is futile because whatever you anyone say you would not agree due to your fascination with Israel can do nothing wrong "they are angel" and rest of the world is evil. How blind can you get, they killed children as old as 2 to 6 months to 5 to 10 years old. You are just making theses silly allegations to justify Israelis, which you cannot. Don't make fool out of yourself by saying that all Gazan or Palestinian children are terrorists...If all are not then why are they killing most of them. Do me a favour mate look into your child eyes(if you have one) then ask yourself as question would anyone would want to see their child get bombed and killed on the other hand if you don't have any, then I suppose you would not know what that means to be suffering parents.


I asked a simple question : to which banned substances were you referring in MSG 244?

I had no knowledge of such things, but assumed you did, seeing as you plainly don't like them. You have no knowledge of them, do you? So, why mention them?

I don't have a 'fascination' with Israel. You asked me who I thought was to blame for the situation in Gaza. I've given my answer (it's 100% the fault of the Palestinian terrorists), and the reasoning behind my opinion. If you read my posts , you'll see that I have stated that Israel has made mistakes (MSG 187), but, of course, you've already demonstrated that you don't read my posts correctly before attacking them.

I know that children are being killed accidentally in Gaza; every death is the responsibility of those who placed those children in danger - the Palestinian government and terrorists.

If I make 'silly allegations', why don't you quote them, and then explain as to why you consider them to be 'silly'?

I haven't stated that "all Gazan or Palestinian children are terrorists" , so don't make such allegations!

Also, you haven't actually 'discussed' the topic with me! You've stated your thoughts without once wishing to discuss mine accurately ie with regard to what I said rather than what you thought I said. You've twice attacked me for the way I have conducted myself, and you haven't provided one link to 'disprove any of my comments.

If the Palestinians cared about their own children, they wouldn't be in the line of fire - except that's exactly what Hamas wants!

HTH
 Buzzlightbeer
Joined: 6/2/2008
Msg: 239
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 4:22:14 PM

If it helps, here's what I quoted - please indicate the section that is 'misquoted':
personally I wouldn't see children as a potential threat but obviously the Israelis do.


This is the actual quote you made:


I wouldn't see children as a potential threat but obviously the Israelis do.


When you should have the quoted this:


Sadly that might be true, the Israelis were killing children, personally I wouldn't see children as a potential threat but obviously the Israelis do.



I'm not sure what you mean by 'point of debate': I use the term 'infantry' to describe 'foot soldiers', even if they are in transporters of some kind.


That the 'tank crew', I use the term to describe any Israeli personnel within the tank (as my original statement suggests), were in no immediate threat and shouldn't have fired back.

My original statement:


Yes the tank commander should have just backed off, there was no immediate threat to the tank or its crew, Hamas doesn't have any shells that would penetrate the tank's armour.
 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 240
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 4:41:12 PM
In this situation to say that one side is completely responsible and the other side totally blameless is simply ludicrous as the actions of both sides can be called into question by anyone with an ounce of objectivity.

Sadly whilst either side is more focused on apportioning blame for past actions than finding a solution we will never see Peace in the region.
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 241
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 4:47:09 PM

In this situation to say that one side is completely responsible and the other side totally blameless is simply ludicrous as the actions of both sides can be called into question by anyone with an ounce of objectivity.


And how, in that case, would one show that the Israelis are partly to blame for the current situation?





If it helps, here's what I quoted - please indicate the section that is 'misquoted':
personally I wouldn't see children as a potential threat but obviously the Israelis do.


This is the actual quote you made:


I wouldn't see children as a potential threat but obviously the Israelis do.


Eh??

Are you saying that the bold areas are the quotes I provided, and that one of them has the word 'personally' at the beginning?

If so, please re-read the two posts, MSG 243 and MSG 247. They both contain the same quote from your MSG 240, viz:


personally I wouldn't see children as a potential threat but obviously the Israelis do.




I notice, though, that while you're nit-picking over a 'missing' word (and one which didn't alter the meaning of the quoted sentence) you weren't able to clarify as to whether or not you are aware that Palestinians train children to be suicide bombers. Did you find the information useful, or were you already aware of that fact, and just chose not to acknowledge it because it destroyed your argument about Israeli soldiers being wary of Palestinian children?

Do tell!



When you should have the quoted this:


Please don't tell me what I should quote - I'll write my posts, not you.



That the 'tank crew', I use the term to describe any Israeli personnel within the tank (as my original statement suggests), were in no immediate threat and shouldn't have fired back.


Yes, I remember that statement - it was incorrect then, and it is still incorrect. The tank commanders were preparing the ground for an infantry attack. We know that is a fact, because the infantry has since advanced into Gaza:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1103314/Israel-rolls-tanks-Gaza-storm-Hamas-rocket-bases.html

"The Israeli Defence Force confirmed that it had launched the second stage of Operation Cast Lead. It said ‘large numbers of forces are taking part in this stage of the operation including infantry, tanks, engineering forces, artillery and intelligence’."

Note the reference to the 'second stage' of the operation. The first stage was obviously the destruction of as much of the terrorists defences and weaponry as was possible. Thanks to Mr Ging, we now know that at least one area of resistance was made safe....
 Warrencraig
Joined: 8/30/2008
Msg: 242
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 4:52:51 PM
No side will win this war. the israelis arent prepared for total extermination of every potential threat and with the people of gaza, no matter how many terrorists and extremists you kill, there will always be more to recruit those impressionable teens to thier cause. teens whove only known about israeli violence against them (from thier perspective based on the propoganda and life they live!).


Once Israely generals are taken to Haag and the generals who ordered bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki and similar then we can talk a fair play and about the REAL DEMOCRACY.


Not the best example, hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings SAVED lives by ending the war. In similar ways you could by your method argue that Churchill should be locked up for ordering the firebombing of Dresdan. and the same goes for the survivors of the dambusters raid. Although i doubt you would find any support for prosecuting either of them.
 Buzzlightbeer
Joined: 6/2/2008
Msg: 243
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/12/2009 5:44:56 PM
Are you saying that the bold areas are the quotes I provided, and that one of them has the word 'personally' at the beginning?


LOL, I missed "personally" off the second one, my bad.

Deliberately only quoting parts of a sentence is misquoting.

I really hope I don't have to explain the difference between a 'comma' and a 'full stop'.

Complete sentence:

Sadly that might be true, the Israelis were killing children, personally I wouldn't see children as a potential threat but obviously the Israelis do.


First misquote:

personally I wouldn't see children as a potential threat but obviously
Israelis do.


Second misquote:

the Israelis were killing children


HTH


The tank commanders were preparing the ground for an infantry attack.


Irrelevant, the tank and its crew were in no immediate threat in that specific attack at the UN school, there was no need for them to return fire.
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 244
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/13/2009 1:49:00 PM

Who do you think is responsible for such atrocities being committed in Gaza. Is it Israel or Hamas? Personally I feel that two wrongs don't make one right. Even if Hamas is on wrong, Israel is doing the samethig if not worst to comitt these crimes.


Well, OP, I've been looking for the first recorded breach of the ceasefire between Israel and Gaza and so far, this is the earliest one I can find:


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1214132667653&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FPrinter

Don't forget, the West Bank was NOT included in the ceasefire, so the Israelis were entitled to arrest the terrorist in Nablus.

"Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said the rocket attack "came as result of Israeli provocation this morning." He added, however, that Hamas was "committed to the security calm."

Yeah, right!


Who do you think is responsible for such atrocities being committed in Gaza. Is it Israel or Hamas?


Hamas, for failing to police the ceasefire in Gaza.

Israel chose not to retaliate by attacking Gaza - the rocket attacks from Gaza continued for several months before Israel finally attacked.
 Gaz01
Joined: 3/19/2007
Msg: 245
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/13/2009 2:05:40 PM
Israeli government is war criminal.
 restless_native
Joined: 12/17/2006
Msg: 246
view profile
History
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/13/2009 4:02:22 PM
No side will win this war.


I agree completely.

However, I doubt that will stop either of them trying to have the last word no matter how boring it is for the rest of us.
 Tesla Roadster
Joined: 5/30/2008
Msg: 247
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/18/2009 3:39:06 AM
While the loudest controversy has been over accusations that white phosphorus was illegally used, other foreign doctors working in Gaza have reported injuries they cannot explain. Professor Mohammed Sayed Khalifa, a cardiac consultant from Sudan, said that two of his patients had had uncontrollable bleeding. "One had a chest operation, and continued bleeding even after having been given large quantities of plasma," he said. "The other had what seemed to be a minor leg injury, but collapsed with profuse bleeding. Something was interfering with the clotting process. I have never seen such a thing before."

Dr Ahmed Almi, an Egyptian cardio-thoracic consultant at al-Nasser hospital in Khan Younis in southern Gaza, said he had seen a number of patients with inexplicable injuries. A boy of 14 had a small puncture wound in his head, but extensive damage to his brain, making it impossible to save his life. "I don't know the nature or type of these weapons that make a very small [entry wound] and go on and make massive destruction in the tissues," he said.

Israeli military representatives have refused to confirm or deny using specific weapons, but insist that all Israel's weapons comply with international law. Neither white phosphorus nor Dime bombs are illegal, but campaigners say the way they have been used, especially in Gaza's densely packed urban areas, could constitute a war crime.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/tungsten-bombs-leave-israels-victims-with-mystery-wounds-1418910.html

Witness

Re Toy boy - messed-up Israeli ex-compulsory-army dehumanised by their government action and litter India in their sad fall out.
 MrWuppy
Joined: 9/8/2007
Msg: 248
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/18/2009 4:24:29 AM
Ref:
'Israeli military representatives have refused to confirm or deny using specific weapons, but insist that all Israel's weapons comply with international law. Neither white phosphorus nor Dime bombs are illegal, but campaigners say the way they have been used, especially in Gaza's densely packed urban areas, could constitute a war crime. '
As far as I'm aware, (and I may be wrong on this) Israel are not signatories to any arms usage limitation conventions, and voted against the Rome Statute of 1998, as did the USA, PRC,Iraq, Syria, and a small number of other nations, I believe also that all NATO members including the UK voted for it.
Frankly I don't think much will happen to bring Israel to book on this, even supposing they permit impartial investigation into the alleged crimes, even the UN cannot be said to be impartial any longer, having had installations and aid workers allegedly targeted.
All the UN could possibly do is expel them, and that would serve no good purpose really,
I suspect that all it will amount to is sendiing them some strongly worded letters.
All in all, it's a terrible humanitarian tragedy....that is going to get worse unfortunately for the Palestinian people who are caught between HAMAS and the IDF.
 Humbum
Joined: 1/3/2008
Msg: 249
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/18/2009 7:39:42 AM
"Israeli government is war criminal"
 CurvyDee
Joined: 1/8/2008
Msg: 250
Gaza Massacre
Posted: 1/18/2009 4:15:54 PM

In this situation to say that one side is completely responsible and the other side totally blameless is simply ludicrous as the actions of both sides can be called into question by anyone with an ounce of objectivity.


Agree. What do we know as fact? im not a war monger(er)or an anti war mongerer, but do you know that the majority of wars all over the world are from religion/and the rest are territory based and this is both, sad state of affairs really.
Show ALL Forums  > UK forums  > Gaza Massacre