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Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 60
Being in The Right League Page 2 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)

who decides which league they should belong to?

The people who most often show you attraction, or react favorably to your advances.

To the topic at hand...

To admit that there are leagues, is to admit that you may be out of yours. That can be a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people. Denial is not a river in Egypt.
Joined: 8/16/2008
Msg: 64
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/7/2009 7:58:29 AM
Sumo Sumo what you described is as you stated a self esteem issue, not a defined league. And that was my point Leagues are non defined but personal preference and experience. If I find a certain type of man physically appealing to me his "league" would be higher. But in the case where my best friend prefers the opposite type of man my top league becomes her bottom. So it is very much personal preference and definition of beauty as well as the other person.

The way I look at it is your personal league is your self confidence other peoples leagues (that you are attracted to) is preferences. Where people fall is anyones guess .. we have all seen the non celebrity strange pairings - to you one of the people may be ugly but to their partner there is no more beautiful being then them.

So again I ask - whose defined league is correct the person that rates them self very high? or the on looker who rates that same person low? Is it not all just opinion based and therefore no true borders which makes it invalid as an idea due to subjectivity?
Joined: 7/25/2006
Msg: 66
view profile
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/7/2009 8:24:15 AM
Of course leagues exist. It not only applies to looks but education and wealth. Someone who has a graduate degree is not likely going to date someone who doesn't have a high school diploma. Someone who's wealthy is not likely going to date someone who struggles to put food on the table. And someone like Charlize Theron is not likely going to be dating someone like me.

Well...maybe before she became famous......

Joined: 10/4/2008
Msg: 69
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/7/2009 10:42:59 AM
Yeah...this 'league' talk is a crock...there is no 'league'...just attraction & compatibility. Think about things, yes, but don't 'over' think the obvious!
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 70
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/7/2009 10:53:51 AM

If you think that I have too much time on my hair so I have nothing else to do than turning my life upside down in my mind, you are at fault.

I don't - and I said I didn't. I am sure you have absolutely no time on your hands...for the most part it was an expression. Context, context.

I am a fairly busy person. I have a full-time job, I do at least two hours of yoga every day (I prepare to start teaching, too) and I squeeze only here and there a date, mostly in the weekends.

So you really don't even have time to worry about does the concept of leagues (or mutual attraction or click as you're defining it) come up with so much going on?

All the things that I noticed about my life are not coming from analysis, but rather an acute sense of knowledge about myself, gained as a by-product of long-standing yoga practice.

I do a lot of yoga. It centers me, gives me balance, teaches me to tune out what's around me and gives me an excellent flexibility and a great two hour head to toe stretch at times, and I can even process inner peace and thoughts - but never have I cared or even noticed what it does for my love life and who I am drawn to (well, other than being limber when it counts, anyway).

I know that because when I see someone I am drawn to, I notice. When they are drawn to me in return, I notice that too...most of it's on the fly, and rarely does it happen while I am doing my warriors and down dogs. Now you personally may reflect on your dating life while doing yoga, but that's a thought process you in particular happen to enjoy...doesn't mean anyone else does this.

Another person might go over finances mentally, another might go over a list of things not finished at work, another might think about something else; see my point?

Anyone serious about doing yoga will get to know themselves eventually very well. They would know what works and what not and they would have a good sense on whom is a really good match for them, for the simple reason that they are very honest with themselves.

I don't equate yoga with pairing off romantically. In fact, yoga is a "me" activity in which looking for men would distract terribly. I don't see how the two are connected, even a little.

That should clear the concept.

I think you are using "league" to define lack of common ground, lack of compatibility, etc. I never defined it as a man who's under 5'8" or a man who's under 30 because I don't think those categories are 100% dealbreakers that cause chances of a good relationship to be slim, but I guess to each their own on that one.
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 76
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/7/2009 12:05:45 PM

As a yoga teacher, I can tell you that yoga is a lot more than a bunch of downdogs, or whatever you do for the physical part.

I happen to think the physical part of yoga is the most rewarding for me. I guess I am already at peace everywhere else, so I don't necessarily carry yoga outside the mat, or class, or DVD, or wherever I am practicing.

Yoga means union, and means realizing ultimately who you are.

For you, maybe. And it's not wrong or right, it's just personal to you. Which is what I have been trying to convey. Even in its strictest definition, it means something different to everyone.

In fact, yoga is a job 100% of the time, and expands to all the layers of your life, dating included and 24/7. It does not apply just when you do a class of poses, some breathing exercises or meditation.

If you teach yoga, I can see how you'd view is as a constant job. Some take the class and move on. Realize there are levels of fitness. Yoga is one of about 5 or 6 different types of workouts I do depending on the day and my mood. And to me, dating is something that happens if/when I bump into someone where it's an issue. Outside of that I could care doesn't permeate life for me.

How would you know about your mental patterns if you do not notice them? There are parts of yoga dedicated to dissect and discipline yourself (Yama and Nyama). Those are not optional for a serious yoga practitioner, otherwise you don't do more than fitness there. I am very serious about these aspects of yoga, and they make my backbone.

AGAIN, that's YOU. Good for you! You get who you are, and what you do. Others are not necessarily doing what you do, nor are they wrong for not following your schedule. I get who I am, and don't think I need anything changed unless I choose to do so in my own learning corner of the world.

If you apply this kind of introspection, I am sure that you will find many things about yourself and some of which you might not be even proud of, coming from the area "doing the right thing without creating negative reactions" at least.

If I want to pick myself apart, and I do that in life often enough as it is, it doesn't dawn on me during a yoga class specifically. It just doesn't. And this is the variety that is life. Some get mental benefits, some physical, some emotional, some all at once. All benefit in some way, tho and THAT's the important aspect of it.
Joined: 1/26/2008
Msg: 79
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/7/2009 12:46:03 PM
I was being pursued by a CEO of as majot hospital who owns a multi-million dollar condo in the City. We met at a bicycle group function, but after finding out about her 'credentials' and such, I was somewhat disinterested in going any further. She did invite me up to her condo, which was quite nice. We hung out and talked and my expectations were quite satisfied. As I expected, she 'runs' with people of a different circle, i.e. league. Their interests, their conversations, what is important to them is a whole different range than in my circle of friends. Talk about a square peg in a round hole! It's not to say some 'leagues' are better than others, though I KNOW many people will argue that, its that they are DIFFERENT.

What you enjoy in life, what your lifestyle reflects, your friends, etc., define what 'league' you are in, and where you are comfortable.

Its not a bad thing.
Joined: 8/18/2008
Msg: 85
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/7/2009 1:58:49 PM
It's not so much that people are above or below each other a lot of the time, but rather that they don't have the same values. An attractive person is more likely to date an average person that she has a lot in common with, and in fact, she will see him as physically more attractive because of it. But I do think people tend to date within their range of attractiveness in general. As for level of income, not so much, but probably within level of education/intelligence.
Joined: 8/27/2008
Msg: 88
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/7/2009 3:51:51 PM
^^^^^ Great insight. Allow me to add: when you "manage" the situation so that you end up making the rules, you've control the game. When you control the game you can construct a system that projects an image that you do not make the rules and control the game. When you cajole the opposition for making the rules and controlling the game, the opposition capitulates; your side ends up owning the gold.

It's brilliant, and it might be coined Propaganda of Misinformation.
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 89
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/7/2009 4:01:16 PM
I wonder if the fact that so many pretty little girls think they are going to be Cinderella one day affects a woman's view on leagues? Boys do not grow up with the idea of being elevated socially by the mate we score. Maybe this is part of why so many women find it hard to accept the concept of being limited in who they can date. The hope that "One day my prince will come." is too strong to ignore.
Joined: 6/30/2008
Msg: 90
view profile
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/7/2009 4:19:07 PM

"There are leagues. You are either in self-denial, lying or just plain stupid to realize there are people judging your looks, car, job, status, house, net worth...etc to determine your league. So if it doesn't exist in your mind, it does NOT mean it does not exist elsewhere."

My sentiments exactly sumo sumo -based on personal experience.
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 91
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/7/2009 5:35:11 PM


Regarding online dating, I got another reply for you, under the form of a real story happening to a friend of mine.

She is extremely attractive, being a former top-model. Tall, young, elegant, educated, the whole shebang.

Men are hitting on her every day and every place, but she wanted to see what is going on online.

She posted a profile with a picture, and guess what?

She was receiving 100 mails a day and needed to figure out a process to sort through them. She was reading the e-mail, and if she liked the content, she moved to profile. Most of the suitors lost in this phase.

Out of 100 mails she was receiveing every day, she was answering only one.

After a month or so, she abandoned the online dating site because she could not find anyone suitable for her, with all the host of candidades.

I think this story tells a lot about attractive people online, and somehow shaped my conviction. I don't stand a chance in hell trying even to write someone like her and then, why even bother?

I know very well my limitations and try to stick to what I know and I feel comfortable with. Occasionaly I try to raise the stakes only to see if something changed meanwhile and adjust my actions accordingly...

I see this happen so often here. A lot of women primarily rely what's in their in-box instead of seeing what's out there for themselves. So out of possibly 100's of emails they may only get a few they like. If they search for themselves would increase their chances of finding somebody they are looking for.

I think this story tells a lot about attractive people online, and somehow shaped my conviction. I don't stand a chance in hell trying even to write someone like her and then, why even bother?

A lot of women like confident men. If you constantly shy away from women, worried they are out of your league, then you just lost them already.

Men can have charisma even thought they may not be attractive or just average. Some women have been attracted toward confident, outgoing men, not always just by looks.
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 94
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/7/2009 6:34:55 PM


I do not lack confidence. However, I wonder how could determine someone based on profile only if someone has confidence or not? 90% of the profile is the picture. A friend of mine was saying that when she received an e-mail on match, she was looking at the picture, even before reading the e-mail. If she did not like the picture, she was deleting the e-mail and not even reading the profile.

Let me tell you my online experience. I have been online on and off for about eight years. I had a relationship with a woman I met on a dating site, but I met her offline, to a party organized by that dating site.

I talked to her on the phone for a while before she got a chance to look at my profile. Do you know what she told me? If she had seem my profile, she would not have given me a thought.

This situation happened so many times, I almost lost track of them. I write people online, they just ignore me, and just a few weeks after I meet them someplace else and all of the sudden they are interested. They try to make me approach them. How come? Probably they have double standards of dating when it comes to online dating and offline dating.

Being for so long in the online dating world, I realized that it does not work for me. Take for instance the experience on POF. In two months, I wrote seven or eight e-mails, all of them ending up being trashed after being read (some of them got trashed even unread). No answer back.

I did not get any e-mail during these two month. How encouraging is that?

I am on eHarmony for a year, and I got just a few dates from there, all of them first and last time. Usually I am getting closed there even before opening my mouth to say something or even see their profile.

I might sound like pessimistic, but I am just realistic.

In the offline world I stand better chances because I am going to the right places and I meet the right kind of people.

I am going to a yoga studio, to a gym and to all kind of special interests groups. I started making connections and meeting people I am really interested with. I got dates from there.

I would be unfair if I complain. Tomorrow and Friday I have set very important dates with the same woman. She is perfect for me, but probably would have rejected me if she met me online... If things will work with this woman, I will be out from the online dating world.

My opinion is that if something does not work, look for something else that works.

I do not blame in any way the people turning me down. I look at them and they are not better than I am. Some of them I gave them a chance and they had very bad attitudes. How does that them better than me?

Fortunately, I learned to be happy with exactly with what I have or what comes my way, so I don't have it to heart.

Nothing else counts.

Tell you the truth what I said to you was mostly if you meet them face to face then online.

I've always had that theory, that some of the same people that reject you online might actually like you if they meet you in person.

I've mentioned that quite often on the forums. And some of which has happened to it does hold true sometimes.

I don't think its necessarily a double standard......But I DO think people will dismiss you quickly online if they find something they don't like about you. No matter how small.....But will quickly dismiss those same things if they meet you in person and really like you.....funny isn't it?

Because online a profile, a pic & a few stats are all a person has to go by. Those are some things that are hard to show personality....unless you show it in person.
Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 95
view profile
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/7/2009 8:08:00 PM
I think it's all BS. As long as we can hold a conversation, even though I may not be as pretty, highly-paid etc. as her (or maybe I am), I have a lot of good qualities too (dammit) and she can make up her own mind whether my qualities complement hers. I'll go for any woman I like.

That woman has poor self-esteem, or simply could not go toe-to-toe with the guy in a conversation (which is verbal sex).
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 96
view profile
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/7/2009 10:42:15 PM
I'm sure a lot of women think this way, but I've also met some ordinary-looking women who were always with guys far more attractive than them, and were clearly very into them, for far more than a quick fumble. Conversely, I've met some stunning-looking women who got used by men left, right and centre. From what I've studied, it's all about self-esteem and self-efficacy, what you believe you deserve and what you believe you can get.

If you believe you can pull a "10", and you think you deserve them, you usually do.
If you believe you cannot pull a "10", and/or you think you don't deserve them, you usually don't.

If most women don't believe they can get a "10", then most women have low self-esteem. Sadly, you cannot improve self-esteem by getting better opportunities. Only working on yourself can improve your self-esteem, such as found in therapies that focus on this, like CBT.

FYI, there are LOTS of men who suffer from low self-esteem and/or low self-efficacy, and who also refuse to date women far more attractive than them, even if she is obviously interested.

Online, it's can be harder, because people often judge you on your profile, and your pics. But real life meetings are very different.

That's pretty much it, the way I see it.
Joined: 10/3/2008
Msg: 98
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/8/2009 9:48:27 AM

such as found in therapies that focus on this, like CBT.

uh, I take it that "CBT" in this context doesn't mean the same thing as it does in BDSM circles??
Joined: 12/6/2008
Msg: 99
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/8/2009 10:44:50 AM
It's possible that's what it means. But there is another side to this.

Have you ever seen the movie "Dirty Dancing"? While some people may not think that there are leagues, and may date a variety of people, there are people who think they are leagues and date UNDER their league for less than admirable purposes. NOBODY wants to feel like the person they are with is with them because they are "slumming." In other words, just using them for a good time until something more exceptable comes along.

the girl who refused to date a guy she thought was "out of her leauge" MIGHT have had enough self esteem and worth not to be someones "goodtime girl."

Ever hear the phrase, "Someone to bring home to mamma."? Or as Rick James said in Superfreak, "the kind you don't bring home to mamma." Then there are also poeple who think along these lines, "there are black/white/hispanic girls that you date/fool around with/sleep with and then there's the ("respectable") girl of your own race/social class that you settle down with."

A lot of men will sleep with pretty much any woman, it doesn't mean he's proud to be seen with her in public. You might not call it leagues. You might call it something else, but it's all the same. Even if you call it "comfort zone" it's the same thing. To say, "there's no such thing as leagues" and then to say, "everyone has their own comfort zones" is to contradict yourself. Your saying the same thing with different terminology.

This woman may have learned that there are good reasons not to date out of her "League" whether that be her own comfort level or her perception of the man's intentions or something else all together. Maybe she thought to herself, if things got serious, his lifestyle is just not one that I would want for myself. Therefore, he is out of my league or in a different league.

It may or may not mean that she thinks that he is "better than her" but not neccessarily so.

I think that there is a lot to this league thing, and even if you do not subscribe to it, or even think it is snobbish or whatever else, doesn't mean that others are as openminded as you. I think a woman is wise to avoid putting herself in a position where she feels she has a very high likelihood of being hurt. The test of this would be, as dr phil likes to say, "how is this working for you." Perhaps it works well for her to date "within her league." That doesn't mean she dates losers, she just perhaps wants someone who's not quite so "slick and perfect."

I'd also like to add, that I can often tell when I meet a guy which of us is going to end up hurting the other. Perhaps she simply senced that it wasn't a match, even though it looked good "on paper."
Joined: 12/6/2008
Msg: 100
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/8/2009 10:46:47 AM
suppose you like her and she likes you but you can tell right off the bat that she would never feel comfortable introducing you to her parents or her friends?
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 103
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/8/2009 12:06:49 PM
I think there's something to that, but not quite so simple.

I wouldn't say that for a woman who's in "frisky mode". Such a woman can get a guy out of their league, but only in the later part of the night at a club (or from online), where the guy's looking for a quick fix and lowers his bar. I think not-too-attractive, sub-30-yr-old women whose dating experiences have stemmed from clubs or online can mistakenly think they're in a higher "league" than what they truly are. Why? Because in such environments, there are many guys "after one thing", and not all are trailer trash. A girl who's a 4/10 in looks, could find a guy-on-the-prowl who's a 7/10 in looks around 1am at a bar, or online, and have a roll in the hay. Repeated situations, despite the guy not calling, may make her think she's in his league, when she's really not. Hence, the stigma of just blaming guys in general... when in reality, she's going for the higher league -- which means less for guys on the prowl, the thicker the beer goggles and higher the hormones.

With that said, this affects the girl when she's relationship-minded. After the flings and adventures, there becomes an association of a guy out of their league to the guy who doesn't call them back (due to their previous flings where they can get a guy above their league in looks). Hence, a sense of insecurity, if he's too outgoing, charming, and good looking. He MUST be after one thing, right? "I'm no super model" she'll think, thus feel a tad uncomfortable.

Another similar factor, even without the backlash of previous flings with guys-out-of-their-league... just general security when it comes to relationship thinking. Status is more important than looks. The beta male becomes more of an option. He's not going to leave so easily. With the stigma of guys being players, a guy who's cute to them but isn't so much a stud would make sense to be the best of both worlds, I imagine.

Also, you may see some good looking women who are always around "ugly friends". This is 100% a result of low self esteem, if it's appreciated by her or done on purpose by her, thus, she's highly likely to be attracted to guys who aren't THAT good looking. It will hurt her less if her feelings get hurt -- she would lose less. He's less likely to leave.

OP, I think your situation of approaching girls "below your looks standard" is due to the fact that if a girl thinks you can clearly get a better looking girl, and your come on is pretty direct, they'll assume you're just after a piece of a$$. If the girl isn't in that "frisky mode", she'll shoo you away.
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 104
view profile
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/10/2009 2:53:50 PM
RE msg 107 by compleat_man:
uh, I take it that "CBT" in this context doesn't mean the same thing as it does in BDSM circles??
Not unless you also call spanking "Cognitive Behavioural Therapy".

RE msg 108 by boho_bookworm:
the girl who refused to date a guy she thought was "out of her leauge" MIGHT have had enough self esteem and worth not to be someones "goodtime girl."
That's admirable. But in my experience, what many women need to appreciate is that guys don't think that a girl is not good-looking enough to marry. They think that a girl may act too slutty, or be too much of a b*tch, or won't fit in with his lifestyle, or his family, to marry. I've seen guys marry the nice, average-looking girl, over the hot, but slutty girl. So choosing to date a guy, because they will be more likely to marry you, based on how attractive you are, is just not understanding what makes men likely to marry you. Guys marry who you are, not what you look like.

Even in "Dirty Dancing", the girl's father would never approve of Patrick Swayze, because he's much older, with no real job prospects, and not Jewish either, unlike his daughter, but not because he's good-looking or a good dancer.

suppose you like her and she likes you but you can tell right off the bat that she would never feel comfortable introducing you to her parents or her friends?
You'd be better off finding out. You may be misinterpreting her behaviour. All you need to do, is ask her to go out with her and her friends. If she keeps refusing, you know she feels embarrassed about you, or about her family and friends.
Joined: 12/12/2008
Msg: 107
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/10/2009 5:32:36 PM
Whether we like to admit it or not, there ARE "leagues" out there, most of them based on class, money, education, and sometimes race, although class, money, and education have been shown to "trump" race. For example: Condoleeza Rice would be more likely to date a professional white male than she would a black male rapper.....

Professional people tend to date other professional people....

Wil the attorney date the janitor? Hardly, or rarely...

Will the hillbilly date the socialite? Not likely........
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 108
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/12/2009 1:10:52 PM

So Im looking for one ugly under achieveing broad.
everybody chooses for him/herslef what they THINK they deserve
it's why people with high self-esteem are doing better job here
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 109
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/12/2009 1:22:12 PM

Whether we like to admit it or not, there ARE "leagues" out there, most of them based on class, money, education, and sometimes race, although class, money, and education have been shown to "trump" race. For example: Condoleeza Rice would be more likely to date a professional white male than she would a black male rapper.....

The only people who are in leagues are the ones who really want to be.

If I am a business executive & I decide I want to take out the waitress from the local dinner, so be it.
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 124
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/12/2009 7:21:02 PM


Here are a few questions to your conundrum with the business executive dating a waitress:

1. Would he want a serious relationship with her, so he could bring her and present her to his circle and family? Related to this, would his circle and family accept her?
2. Would he marry her and make her kids?
3. Would that marriage last more than 10 years?

If the answer is yes to all the questions above, they are in the same league. Otherwise, the situation you present is nothing more than the business executive abusing the social status of a waitress and a waitress taking advantage of a business executive.

Otherwise they are not in the same league and they have nothing to do one with the other.

There could be any number of scenarios that could happen how they meet.

Perhaps they meet at a old family friend....maybe he has been going to the diner for a number of years and they became good friends. Perhaps have many shared interests.

The three examples could be easily applied to almost any situation not just from different economic backgrounds.
 i like cats
Joined: 10/28/2007
Msg: 125
Being in The Right League
Posted: 1/12/2009 7:55:28 PM
Have never considered the "league" theory.
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