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 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 230
Leagues aside... Page 5 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)

Then there is the conversation factor. I am a literature teacher - I have two advanced degrees and I am working to complete my Ph.D. - focusing on cognition - I doubt very seriously Joe (the) Plumber, Joe Six Pack, or any of the other less than average Joes could hold their own with me in a conversation.... let alone life.

An intelligent person would never confuse intelligence and education with having gone to school. (If you think I'm saying that because I haven't gone to school, you'd be wrong. I'm a nuclear physicist.) An intelligent person would realize that ``Joe (the) Plumber,'' could teach her about plumbing (unless, of course, she already knows all about it.) If I took the position you're taking, you'd be in the same position you've put ``Joe (the) Plumber,'' since the chances that you're ever going to offer a stimulating conversation about relativistic quantum field theory are zero. However, I consider myself intelligent only because I can learn anything that interests anyone else and converse with those people at their level, not because they will never know something about an esoteric, highly specialized and generally useless field that I find interesting. As a result, I've learned a lot about plumbing, machining and other things and I know for a fact that there are ``Joe (the) Plumber(s)'' (or in my case, ``Jane (the) Plumbers'') who are pretty smart. I guess the flip side of your comment is, could you hold your own in a conversation with them?



I know someone is thinking - what a snob! Well I know nothing of Nascar - so that puts me way out of the league of a good number of men.... check and then checkmate. Pun intended.

Well yes, that is what I'm thinking and, in principle, I have the educational background which would appeal to the snob in you.
 DocElffington
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 232
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History
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/8/2009 8:47:28 AM
Many women are selfish creatures......whether or not they choose to admit it.

If she goes on a date and discovers that he's Mr. Prefect, but dumps him? It's her own selfish reasons for dumping him. Why? Because she thinks that she'll always have to present herself as perfect to match his perfection. It's a lot of work and maybe she doesn't feel upto the challenge? So yeah, her own sense of inadequacy is what would shy her away from him.
Now not all women would think this way. The next woman whom thinks he is Mr. Perfect, won't be intimidate/or will, but will feel up for the challenge and thinks that he'll keep her on her toes!
I just think that too many women want to feel comfortable in a relationship and feel as though they are being accepted as they are(perfect in their flaws), not being sized upto some arbitrary standard!
 DocElffington
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 234
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History
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/8/2009 9:25:49 AM
Insecurities are selfish.

Especially when one chooses to live in them.

Many women don't like "pretty boys" because they worry about him hogging the mirror more than her!
Women like taller men, for their own selfish insecurities!

And fantasies can be healthy. So long as one can differentiate between them and reality.

Afterall, I'm better than George in a lot of ways. I just don't "The Look"!
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 236
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/8/2009 10:13:02 AM

Women like taller men, for their own selfish insecurities!

I hate when people say this, as if men don't ALSO prefer shorter women. Blame the women, instead of recognizing a societal norm. Then, project onto women as say it's THEIR insecurity. That's just silly.

Back on topic:
Just the name being a sports reference implies a man made up the term. Because, as pointed out, many men have no idea that they have no chance in hell of bagging a model, and will try despite looking like a complete idiot. Maybe men need to be reminded that they're not Adonises. A woman is likely suspicious if a super good-looking man cares for her, and wonders why he likes her (if she feels she's not as good-looking). When, in truth, there are WAY more good-looking women than men out there.
 whytwater
Joined: 8/7/2008
Msg: 237
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/8/2009 10:43:14 AM

Just the name being a sports reference implies a man made up the term. Because, as pointed out, many men have no idea that they have no chance in hell of bagging a model, and will try despite looking like a complete idiot.


Hmmm, so men are uglier idiots (the "complete" kind!), but at least one of us beasts got sufficiently creative with the language to coin a term (and a concept) that has remained vital for several decades, even incendiary, judging by the length of this thread?
Maybe it's just complete idiots who accept, at face value, the persistent claims by most women that looks are unimportant.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 238
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/8/2009 10:51:21 AM

persistent claims by most women that looks are unimportant

I defy you to find where anyone--male or female --has said that looks are "unimportant". Pretty much everyone says looks are not the ONLY thing, but that they ARE one thing.
 whytwater
Joined: 8/7/2008
Msg: 241
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/8/2009 11:08:00 AM
I defy you to find where anyone--male or female --has said that looks are "unimportant


Hey, CG, I'm sure I have seen such claims, much more frequently by women than men, in several places in the thousand threads I've read in the past six months. But to find those comments would require hours of backtracking (I hate rereading something I've already read, especially if I wrote it (Lol)- maybe some day when I'm reeeaaaaallly bored. Lol.
But, OK, even if I misread those posts, at least you agree that several have said that looks are not the MOST important thing a woman, even a model, uses to judge a man. That, in itself, may explain why an otherwise gifted idiot might persue the unattainable. Lol. Myself, well, I've been saying for a long time that I like to take my share out of the middle.

P.S. Check out the current lengthy thread on "When a woman is so beautiful you can't approach her", especially the posts by good-looking women.
 TakingItSlow66
Joined: 2/2/2009
Msg: 246
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/13/2009 6:23:10 AM
rem42 equated feeling out of someone's league with the feeling of shame. For me shame is all about feeling rejection and being reminded of what I'm not and probably will never be.

So I have a quote that I've stickied on my monitor. It helps me whenever I feel that way. Maybe it'll help others.

What is the seal of liberation? No longer being ashamed in front of oneself.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 248
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/13/2009 6:30:21 AM

Actually OP, just the opposite is truth. Evolution has proven that since cavemen times women have chosen the BEST available mates. Since prehistoric times women chose the strongest, most handsome, the best hunters and more than likely the best lovers available to them.

You are trying to promote what is called ``social darwinism.'' You are equivocating society's measure of a successful male with evolutionary traits, even though society's definition depends on things which change far fater than evolution operates. If you were to look at the most successful males, those would be the wealthy middle aged men who should then naturally choose young attractive women, but that idea is almost universally reviled on these forums as being perverse.

I could just as easily say that evolution is responsible for women who consistently choose losers (i.e., ``bad boy'' syndrome), in that women are genetically programmed to seek traits which are not useful in modern society.
 whytwater
Joined: 8/7/2008
Msg: 250
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/13/2009 6:49:32 AM

What is the seal of liberation? No longer being ashamed in front of oneself.


The Mark of Cain. Demian. Herman Hesse.
I recommend it.
 celts123
Joined: 5/15/2008
Msg: 254
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/13/2009 9:36:17 AM
I hate when people say this, as if men don't ALSO prefer shorter women. Blame the women, instead of recognizing a societal norm.


Yes some women do prefer shorter men. But I think women generally care more about height than men do. I have seen many profiles on POF and other dating sites. Both from men and women. Among the profiles I have seen, a much higher percentage of women's profiles had some type of height requirement.

As for this subject, I think leagues do exist to at least some extent. Leagues can apply to other things in addition to physical attraction. Income, social status, education level, profession etc. I would probably have no shot with a woman who has a PhD and is a doctor or a lawyer. I would probably have no shot with a woman who is a famous actress or singer. Most likely, these women would date men that have many of the same traits that they do.
 Stray__Cat
Joined: 7/12/2006
Msg: 256
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/13/2009 2:38:11 PM
Most men are competitive and go for gold.
Most women are realistic and go for what works.
 celts123
Joined: 5/15/2008
Msg: 257
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/13/2009 2:54:53 PM
I've never met such women. They all PREFER taler than them but go with what's is available.


That was a typo. I meant to write Some men do prefer shorter women. But I think women generally care more about height than men do.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 258
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/14/2009 11:50:02 AM

Yet, it is a universally held truth that it is fine and very acceptable for a middle aged and even older man to not only desire a 20 year old woman but to actively seek and procure same. One example; mail order brides.

Um, no, it's a universal truth that it is a route for men who have no options with "real" women. I've known four guys who've done this (Filipino and Ukrainian women), all every guy was a real soft milquetoast who was put off by American women (and they, them). It's the option for men who can't get women on their own, so they have to buy a woman, and--if you go by my admittedly too-small sample--only a 25% "success" rate.

One of the guys brought a woman over, lasted not even a year, and then brought ANOTHER one over, with the exact same result. He figured they would be so happy to be here in America that they would swoon at his feet and do his bidding--and found out that they were very real human beings with thoughts and desires of their own (duh). He was disillusioned (and probably out of cash), and now is alone and not even trying any more.
 xeot
Joined: 10/25/2007
Msg: 259
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Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/14/2009 3:29:54 PM

> I could just as easily say that evolution is responsible for women who consistently > choose losers (i.e., ``bad boy'' syndrome), in that women are genetically programmed to > seek traits which are not useful in modern society.

The fact that women, myself included, love “bad boys” is that these men posses many of the same qualities that good men do but they have a bit of a dangerous edge to them. They are exciting, daring, take risks, are non conformists…..the very qualities that most successful men possess.


Only non-conformists in the way that conforms to what is currently considered cool. If a guy is a non-conformist, a true one, somebody really doesn't fit in anywhere, well he's not going to do well in dating.

As far as the 'bad boy' and social Darwinism goes all that aims to do is promote the worst humans have to offer. We see the ultimate expression of this in how democracy elects 'leaders'. Most often these people are the most ruthless, the biggest liars, the biggest cheats, and so on. There is a quote that basically says that great men are generally not good men. That is so and so the great was often someone who killed many to achieve his goals.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 260
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/14/2009 5:57:50 PM

I live in what is considered a resort area. We have a lot of retirees, some quite affluent. I have witnessed, on more than a few occasions, while dining in a nice restaurant older men with very young women. The reason I even noticed them is because they were not communicating. It is so strange to see persons together, dining unable to speak to one another. The young women were, of course, of a different race, nationality. Mail order? This merely adds to my argument that women are much more likely to desire to marry up, it is inbred, than are men.


That may be the perception but not necessarily the rule. I often thought that might be the perception when Me & my stepdaughter go out together. She is 22 & a different nationality. But my wife happened to be three years older then me.

Some people make assumptions without knowing all the facts.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 261
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/14/2009 8:54:59 PM
He's saying that it is quite the leap for YOU to think all men who are sitting eating a meal with a younger woman of a different nationality means that he has bought himself a mail-order bride.

I have to agree with him.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 262
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/14/2009 9:22:37 PM

You do not make any sense whatsoever.


Your kidding, right? Post 296 got it right away.


What does your wife being 3 years older than you have to do with anything?


Many of your posts have to do with middle aged man with a much younger women in your trading up theory.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 263
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/14/2009 10:22:23 PM

I have witnessed, on more than a few occasions, while dining in a nice restaurant older men with very young women. The reason I even noticed them is because they were not communicating. It is so strange to see persons together, dining unable to speak to one another. The young women were, of course, of a different race, nationality.

That's a quote from YOUR previous post. YOU brought up race and nationality.


Successful, middle aged men are in their zenith. They can choose from the entire spectrum of women available to them. If they’ve not married and want a family they will choose younger, no doubt about that.

Here's another quote from your previous post. This is, if taken from the perspective of a society where younger women are more valuable than older women, an example of the more mature men "trading up".
 xeot
Joined: 10/25/2007
Msg: 264
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Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/15/2009 7:43:50 PM

Um, no, it's a universal truth that it is a route for men who have no options with "real" women. I've known four guys who've done this (Filipino and Ukrainian women), all every guy was a real soft milquetoast who was put off by American women (and they, them). It's the option for men who can't get women on their own, so they have to buy a woman, and--if you go by my admittedly too-small sample--only a 25% "success" rate.


The reality of the situation is that these women are almost always scammers of one variety or another. Sometimes they aren't even women, but some guy using pictures of women online to get men to send money. The internet has allowed for that sort of scam to blossom. These women go around looking for lonely men they can scam. They are everywhere online and one must actively ignore them. Is that astounding that some guys are just simply lonely enough to fall for it?

On another note, why is it that so many women in these forums have such dislike for what other people do with regards to meeting women from overseas? If the guys that do it are so horrible and undesirable why even bother wasting thought on it? Why chastise them? It's their choice. It's not like they were desirable to the women making the complaints, so why? What does it matter?

And as far as 'real' women go, ever think that there may be something that wrong about American society, or at the very least it is a society that is so weighted to favoring certain kind of people that others are just left out? Maybe that's it. The refusal of some to just conform to the mass.
 GeneralizingNow
Joined: 10/10/2007
Msg: 265
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/16/2009 4:43:37 PM
why is it that so many women in these forums have such dislike for what other people do with regards to meeting women from overseas?

It's not REALLY my business, but I was under the impression that I'm allowed to have and give my opinion on things. This IS a Forum, not a "meeting of like minds" website.


And as far as 'real' women go, ever think that there may be something that wrong about American society, or at the very least it is a society that is so weighted to favoring certain kind of people that others are just left out?

Actually, that's a very American attitude, to think that everyone "should" have the same chance as everyone else (in this case, to marry happily, I guess). IS it a "right" to get to mate? Nope. Not constitutionally and not, apparently, really.
 xeot
Joined: 10/25/2007
Msg: 268
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Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/16/2009 8:17:17 PM

> why is it that so many women in these forums have such dislike for what other people do
> with regards to meeting women from overseas?

It's not REALLY my business, but I was under the impression that I'm allowed to have and give my opinion on things. This IS a Forum, not a "meeting of like minds" website.


Who said anything about not being allowed an opinion? Not I. The question is why is there such a dislike? What is the reason behind the opinion? I'd like to understand why even have an opinion on it. Two people get together for their mutual benefit or hope to find a mutual benefit. I don't see why it is of anyone else's concern or why it should even elicit such feelings. Trying to put words in my mouth to avoid answering is poor form, simply don't answer at all if you do not wish to.


> And as far as 'real' women go, ever think that there may be something that
> wrong about American society, or at the very least it is a society that is so weighted to > favoring certain kind of people that others are just left out?

Actually, that's a very American attitude, to think that everyone "should" have the same chance as everyone else (in this case, to marry happily, I guess). IS it a "right" to get to mate? Nope. Not constitutionally and not, apparently, really.


I said nothing about 'same chance', that's your assumption. Please do not put words in my mouth. I also stated nothing about a 'right' to a mate. I spoke of the right to seek happiness. For some reason if a person should decide to shrug off the norms of this society they are worthy of scorn. Why? Can they not seek happiness in their own way? Or must they conform to your ideas of how things should be?

It appears that you would have it that some people cannot seek happiness except in the approved manner and then must go without if they aren't good enough for 'real women'. Where good enough refers to the culture of the USA. Apparently these men don't get to find anyone, that any woman who would be with them is not a 'real woman'. Now if they aren't even interested in a 'real woman' whatever that is, they are really worthy of scorn. Now I can only assume what a is or a 'real woman' is, but I assume it is something like the norm of american consumer society.

Then again, this nation has long thrown away the principles of liberty and instead become a nation where far too many people are far too concerned with the private lives of their neighbors and then seeking to use the power of government or just plain old ridicule and worse on those who dare be different and force conformity. I can never understand this control freakish mentality.

If a man finds that he more compatible with women from another culture, so what? Or is it that american imperialism at work where the other must be converted? Perhaps it is market protection, keeping people in their appropriate 'leagues'? Is that these women represent some form of competition so they have to be maligned as not being 'real women' and the men being bad for choosing them?
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 269
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/16/2009 9:50:28 PM

The fact that women, myself included, love “bad boys” is that these men posses many of the same qualities that good men do but they have a bit of a dangerous edge to them. They are exciting, daring, take risks, are non conformists…..the very qualities that most successful men possess.


There is a slight difference, though. It's easy to see how someone like Hugh Hefner has a lot of appeal to women. He has all of those characteristics, but above all what made him successful is that he's intelligent. Women also choose men who are daring and exciting without regard to any benefit that could be related to an evolutionary goal, at least not in this society at this time. They lack intelligence, they get killed doing stupid things, etc. So, in the sense that evolution was cited as a factor in choosing men, you would be correct in what you said above. However, that was the point I was trying to make because it conflicts with the sort of evolutionary preference that I was referring to. Donald Trump, for example is none of those things. He started out with several hundred million dollars from his family and hasn't done anything with it that the average person couldn't have done, nor does he seem very exciting or daring or take meaningful risks. He's the ultimate conformist in that he's whatever his pr advice tells him is good for image. His only excitement value is directly related to what he can spend. In short, he is not exactly what a woman would choose for survival for any evolutionary reason.


Successful, middle aged men are in their zenith. They can choose from the entire spectrum of women available to them. If they’ve not married and want a family they will choose younger, no doubt about that.

Surem but I'm not sure evolution is responsible for all of that. I'd say it's more cultural.


Yourself for example…. don’t know if you’re successful but certainly you posses great intellect, an equalizer IMO.

Well, not in terms of being wealthy, but I do recognize that wealth creates opportunities, if for no other reason than someone who is wealty can afford to be more places where there are women. I think I prefer younger women for the same reason I prefer being around younger people in general. Younger people are generally more open minded. I don't feel like I have a lot in common with people my age. Most of them care about things to which I can't relate, like planning for retirement. On the other hand, even though someone who is 20 or whatever might lack life experience, an intelligent 20 year old is easier to talk to than the average 40 year old who has become set in his/her ways because of experiences that were primarily beneficial to his/her current situation. With age, people tend lose objectivity and see things in terms of their own bias. Young people are typically still typically interested in learning new things and are more open to questioning what they see. I apparently didn't live up to the predictions adults made when I was young in that I never have come to recognize the wisdom they told me I would when I got older.



I cannot help but comment on the fact that when it comes to mating if I were to have on my profile that I was seeking 20 year old men I would be considered a pervert.

Well. moreso than a guy anyway. But, if that's what you wanted, who cares? You're the person who has to live with who you end up with.


I might also be inundated with mail from young guys who would naturally assume that I am only seeking marathon sex

Probably, but (1) that might not be so bad; and (2) you don't get to choose the applicants. You only get to select from among them.


for what else would a middle-aged woman have in common with a 20 year old man?

Well, I'd say whatevver it was that you thought was more available in a 20 year old than someone older, but I try to avoid making judgments about individual cases even if something might be true in general.


Yet, it is a universally held truth that it is fine and very acceptable for a middle aged and even older man to not only desire a 20 year old woman but to actively seek and procure same.

I'd say it's more acceptable, but I doubt that any couple separated by 20 years will seem ``normal'' to most people. I think guys are more inclined to want to be the guy with the younger girlfriend (or older girlftriend) and women are more likely to not understand why anyone would choose a partner who is much older or younger for anything but nefarious reasons. As far as older women seeking younger me, I think women are their own worst enemies in terms of acceptance, while guys would tend to say ``go for it.''
 compleat_man
Joined: 10/3/2008
Msg: 270
Being in The Right League
Posted: 2/17/2009 7:06:16 AM
Cassago:


It's not REALLY my business, but I was under the impression that I'm allowed to have and give my opinion on things. This IS a Forum, not a "meeting of like minds" website.


interesting, yet in another thread, I seem to recall you saying that no-one had any 'right' to have any opinion, or to question, a young woman having 8 abortions?

what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander according to you?
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