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 RenaissanceMan1950
Joined: 2/20/2009
Msg: 76
Woman won't tell me her last namePage 4 of 16    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16)
As any mental health professional would tell you, "controlling" people are responding to fear, by needing control. Fear can always "justify" itself, and reasonable caution in online dating emotionally healthy. I haven't read anyone suggesting that you should supply first and last name, address, social security #, and home phone # on a first email.

Emotional balance is about gradually revealing yourselves to each other, and allowing a modicum of trust to develop, unless one, in the screening process of early contact, sees "red flags".

The posts I've read from those who think it's perfectly fine to withhold their last names, after starting to date someone, and having met 3 times, seem to be expressing that their fears are the strongest motivators of their conduct in dating, and that they have a need for "control".

We've all had "bad experiences" in dating. If we all let fear of a "bad experience" in the past, or news stories we've read, be our guides, then no one should be dating. There's always a risk. As someone posted earlier, for all you know, the clerk at a store could be a sociopath, who, with your name and address in hand, could turn out to be a rapist or stalker. For others, there is a reasonable balance between hope and fear, and we take minor "chances", in the hope of developing intimacy.

The OP posted about someone he met 3 times in the real world. If at that point, a woman isn't acting "normally", which would include sharing simple things about herself, like her last name, it would indicate to me that she has "issues", and I am not looking to do "therapy" in an early relationship.

She has every legal right to share, or not, whatever she chooses to share. Likewise, it's perfectly reasonable for me to decide that she has too many fear and control issues to want to continue on.

Were it me, in the OPs situation, I would have moved on long before this. I seriously doubt that this is the only "red flag".
 RenaissanceMan1950
Joined: 2/20/2009
Msg: 77
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/9/2009 10:31:42 PM
Asking for the last name after three weeks, let's see. Why? What is the relevance unless you are seriously in the process of having each other in your lives.


I don't know that I'd "ask", but if it weren't freely given in the normal course of events, I'd eventually notice, and think it odd. Exchanging names is normal part of social interaction. Like most business people, I give out 500 business cards in 6 months with my name, where I work (obviously), cell phone, and an email address. I can be "found" on the internet, in terms of my public life, but my address, social security numbers, bank, etc. could not.

I give my name to countless people, from secretaries to clerks in stores. It's no big deal. The fact that someone withholds it would indicate an "issue", because it's odd, weird, and delivers a subtle, negative message.

How could one send a little card, or flowers after an especially great time together? How does one tell others in his life that he's "seeing someone", and come up blank, when asked for her name?

Fact is, there are normative behaviors in social relationships. When someone acts in a way that runs counter to the "norm", it raises questions. Early on in dating, if something gives me pause, because it's odd, there's no reason to continue on. It's not as if the world isn't full of relatively normal, attractive women, and it isn't all that difficult to "get a date". So, why pursue something, if she is acting "weird"?
 The_Standard_Model
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 78
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Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/9/2009 11:48:37 PM
But three weeks and someone preoccupied with the last name? Flowers that early? Is that her birthday?


No. There is no pre-occupation with her last name. The issue is that some how (after three weeks of dating) the topic of her last name came up and she refused. At no point was there anything said about being pre-occupied with her name, demanding her name or arguing about her name. It's her refusal to give her last name after that period of time that is the topic. As in Why would someone feel that after three weeks of dating the time is right/ is not right to share that level of information?


Sole parents aren't just protecting themselves by being careful about revealing information which could easily identify where they live: they're also protecting their children.
I think some men just don't get it.

Some may not, but there is another side to that idea too. If you have reservations about exposing your children to the people that you meet on an online dating site ( a reasonable concern on SOME levels) then why would you use online dating? There are plenty of other avenues to meet people that are not essentially blind dating (which this is). If this is a concern of yours then why would you even risk it? Why not simply meet potenial dates in a more conventional manner? It would seem to me that if you feel that there is such a viable risk risk to your child that you would not share your name (like millions of people do on business cards and junk mail flyers), then you would not use that venue to look for dates!
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 79
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/10/2009 9:59:14 AM
1. In three weeks OR three dates, I feel in the dating process it's early on. I may or may not tell someone a last name, but it's not a topic or issue where one or the other person should be directly asking "so what's your last name?" as the other person if they have any common sense whatsoever would find that intrusive. From there if someone rides the issue and gets pushy about it it becomes less about the last name, and more about the intention of asking. However, IME - it's never been an issue...for either side.

2. Yes, if I asked a guy his last name (or where he worked or lived) in the first couple weeks, I'd expect him to want to know why I wanted to know, so this isn't gender specific. I dated one guy last year who's whole name is in his profile info, and I asked him if he thought it was a good idea to give people that type of info being that he's got a child. He told me he didnt' care. That's fine, but not everyone feels this way about personal information. The first few dates you're both still deciding whether or not to continue, so it may not matter what that information is anyway.

3. This isn't about fear, or paranoia with me, it's about respecting personal information that's not required early on, and respecting personal privacy and space. I can't be sure someone who has a last name, a workplace or address will respect that information and basically not use it for anything - nor can he be sure I won't do this if he doesn't know me that well. Of course I have been thru this, so that's why I am leary of it. I have to know you don't have any intention of contacting me or showing up somewhere unless/until I am ok with it to give you that information. It's why I meet someone out for at least the first couple weeks and why where I am when not on the date isn't information I openly throw on the table.

4. It's a matter of how comfortable I am with someone. I may tell them in the first meet if I feel comfortable doing so. I may not tell someone till a month later. It's basically how well I click with and read a person. I don't withhold to be controlling and I don't like someone pushing me for the info for the same reason. And since I don't ask them either and allow them to tell me when they are ready, I respect their space and privacy also.
 The_Standard_Model
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 80
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Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/10/2009 11:31:48 AM
But really, I think at this point we're all just arguing in circles. People should just do what they feel comfortable with doing.

Well only a few are arguing. The rest of us are attempting to have a reasoned conversation and see this as an oppertunity to explore a different point of view. A chance to expand our understanding of why we do what we do and why other people do what they do. For the vast majority of us, this is not an argument.


So what's the difference whether we're being careful because it works, or we're being careful because it makes us feel more comfortable?

Well because some of the actions that are done just feel comfort but that do not actually create security are harmful to the relationship that you are trying to create. Like if you were driving and you suddenly saw a car swerve into your lane, while it might make you FEEL more comfortable to put your hands over your eyes,you would actually be safer to keep your hands on the steering wheel and attempt to avoid the collision! It is the same with the last name thing. I am quite sure that most guys here ( I know that had had not) considered that a woman that I had spoken to a few times online, on the phone and dated a number of times for threee weeks would have any reservations about sharing something as basic and easily shared with everyone else as her name. I would have been kind of taken aback(and still would) at a wary even offended response.
I think that most of the men here share this view.


it's not a topic or issue where one or the other person should be directly asking "so what's your last name?" as the other person if they have any common sense whatsoever would find that intrusive.

Many many people would disagree? Now obviously many people would and do agree with you, but not to the extent that
as the other person if they have any common sense whatsoever would find that intrusive.

Many people simply do not find that intrusive after three weeks of dating.... or a first date.


From there if someone rides the issue and gets pushy about it it becomes less about the last name, and more about the intention of asking.

True but, that is true in all cases! Anyone that becomes pushy and insistent about getting information that the other person is not willing to share has their motivations become suspect (whether it is to invade our lives beyond a level that we are comfortable with or just because they are attempting to have an unpleasant conversation), but that is not the topic here. The OP never claimed to have badgered her (although this is written from his point of view so he may have). He simply said that she is insistent on not telling him her last name. Heck she may have said it outright, simply out of the blue trying to set some boundaries in the beginning!
The question that most of the guys here keep coming back to is, why would you continue to date a guy that you still felt fearful of sharing information with that you share constantly with strangers (Look at all the junk mail you get with your name AND address on it)?
Now DJChicky says that 3 weeks is not enough time for her and is still quite early in dating. Fair enough, but she stresses that it is a fierce desire to maintain her personal space, not fear that motivates her!
You MIGHT see my apartment after three months (I prefer six, but will relax that if I feel you won't show up there unannounced)...and it's not about safety alone, it's about my space and my privacy, both of which I value fiercely.
and while I feel it is a bit extreme, it is completely fair and reasonable. She has a boundary that she is comfortable with and effectively does things to maintain that boundary.
But to screen a guy online, then over the phone and then go out with him a number of times... but feel less 'safe' with him having your name than with absolute strangers having your name seems... backwards!
That is the explanation that is being asked for!! Every single fear that women here have expressed is just reasonable for the date as it is for the people at Block Buster that we give all of our information to, or that we give to telemarketers on the phone!!


Yes, if I asked a guy his last name (or where he worked or lived) in the first couple weeks, I'd expect him to want to know why I wanted to know,

Although DJChicky has made her desire for personal space clear, on a date people want to know these things in an attempt to get to know you you more. That is the purpose of dating!! To get to know the other person and see if there is chemistry! Now personally I rarely ask a person where they work. I don't care unless you have a really interesting job. People tend to define you by your employment.
 The_Standard_Model
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 81
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Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/10/2009 2:33:01 PM
You know, over the last few hours I have been considering the issues that have been brought up during this conversation.
It is kind of sad that so many people feel unable to simply relax and let go. Dating is really just supposed to be fun. A chance to laugh, be excited and deep down hope that the person that you are sharing a drink, a walk, a meal or a dance with may be the next great romance in your life.
That's how I Feel anyways!

I think that it unfortunate that so many others are not able to approach dating with the same pleasure that I get from it. Personally, I do not purposely put myself into social situations for long periods of time with people that I am not comfortable with.
Yes there is risk in meeting new people and dating for all of us. Yes there are bad and nefarious people out there. I do what I can do protect myself from them, but not at the expense of becoming fearful of everyone around me or that I may meet. I would rather risk the pain or financial loss than become suspicious of everyone that I am in contact with. And sometimes I have been hurt, taken advantage of and stolen from.

The question has been asked repeatedly 'Why would someone even ask for your last name?" When I am on a date and it is going well, I want to get to know the other person. After a few dates I want to start to create connection. To dig a little deeper and discover more and more things about the other person.
The funny quirks that they may have, Whether you snort when you laugh, can you swim, do you enjoy your job, Do you lose all control over cheese cake or chocolate, would you rather spend Sunday afternoon lazing around the house in shorts and flip flops or out at a ball game... or driving really fast down the highway with the wind blowing through your hair, are you as frustrated by fractions as I am, do you speak another language, do you have brothers and sisters, what did you look like as a kid, where do you want to go and who do you want to be? I want to learn you.
Does that involve opening up and becoming vulnerable to some degree or another? Well yes. It does, but Guys generally don't want to know all of this on the first date! But after three weeks (including a few dates, email messages and a number of phone calls) and the other person still is not willing to open up enough to share... her name. The same name that she shares with strangers... and she is staying closed up out of FEAR and CONCERN, well for me, that is a sad way of going through life.
Is it hard sometimes to trust people? To give them the benifit of the doubt? Sometimes.
That is why it is called trust, not proof. But I honestly believe that life is better spent believing others and trusting than believing that people are out to get you or take advantage. Have a little faith.
People are usually worth the risk.
 RenaissanceMan1950
Joined: 2/20/2009
Msg: 82
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/10/2009 3:36:53 PM
It is kind of sad that so many people feel unable to simply relax and let go. Dating is really just supposed to be fun. A chance to laugh, be excited and deep down hope that the person that you are sharing a drink, a walk, a meal or a dance with may be the next great romance in your life.


Bingo!

That's it, exactly. Like so many other topics about dating, I'm amazed that so many people have all the complexity and confusion and stress factors over things that happen naturally.

Truth is, I've never "asked" a woman for her last name, but it has never happened that I haven't known a woman's last name, if we've met once, and plan to see each other again. It's just something that people normally and naturally share with each other. And, my response to the OP is that, if it didn't happen naturally, when it suddenly occurred to me, it would just be weird. Once I start "wondering", there would be no point in going forward. Something would be "off", it would make me too "self-aware" of being "under scrutiny", and it wouldn't be natural or fun to keep seeing her, so I wouldn't.

For those who have made the long posts seeking "validation" of their fears, I have to wonder what "fun" they find in dating at all? Fear, like any other emotion, is neither right nor wrong. It's a feeling, and feelings just are, but if one is afraid of something, then one can either choose not to do that which induces fear, or one can do something constructive to try to overcome it. Fear can always justify itself. Even agoraphobics can cite street crime statistics to make it seem "reasonable" to never leave their homes, if someone pushes them. The thing that's odd here, though, is that if one is afraid of who one might meet in dating, then why date? No one "has to", unless he/she enjoys the process.
 Portlan
Joined: 12/2/2008
Msg: 83
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/10/2009 6:22:26 PM
After a month of going out and and not willing to give you her last name? I say something is seriously wrong there.

You should be asking her what the deal is.

LOL be different if it was a social security number, ATM pin or such but last name? Come on. $10 says after a month at work you know the last name of the person working next to you.
 RenaissanceMan1950
Joined: 2/20/2009
Msg: 84
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/10/2009 6:28:16 PM
People pose questions on POF, and others respond. Hopefully, in posting and reading responses it spurs introspection, and has one look at his/her assumptions, question them, and decide for himself/herself if they are valid. There is no "objective truth" that does, or should, apply to everyone. Women, for example, who I find incredibly attractive might not be some other man's cup of tea.

Dating is an "open market", and so long as one is satisfied with the "available universe" of the opposite sex, based on his/her "offer" and "expectations", there is no external pressure to change. The only people who might want to consider change, are those who are unhappy with those available to him/her based on his/her "offer".

There have been posters, who claim to be enjoying dating and having fun, whose "offer", including such things as withholding their names, and, for such people, there's no reason that they "should" change. They aren't "wrong", so long as it works for them, but they'd be "wrong for me", and I wouldn't put up with it. Conversely, I have no intention of adjusting my perception of what's "acceptable" in dating, because I am perfectly satisified with the results I've experienced "on the market". and see no reason to date someone, who makes dating uncomfortable.
 The_Standard_Model
Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 85
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Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/10/2009 6:56:48 PM

others, such as yourself (and me), are definitely arguing. You even argued about the fact I said it was an argument, lol!

Nope. Not arguing. Just because I disagree, I am not arguing. Trying to explore your thought process and introduce mine. I am yet to insult or call you or anyone else her a name or insinuate that 'you have problems'. There has been no angry post from me.


What is your problem with the way I, and others like myself, date? Clearly, as has been expressed, it's never been a problem for us... never harmed MY dating life one iota. So really, why again should we follow your advice? If it isn't broke, don't fix it. And my dating style works just fine for me, but thanks for your concern.

You have lost the context of that statement. You asked specific question...
So what's the difference whether we're being careful because it works, or we're being careful because it makes us feel more comfortable?

Which I then answered with...

Well because some of the actions that are done just feel comfort but that do not actually create security are harmful to the relationship that you are trying to create. Like if you were driving and you suddenly saw a car swerve into your lane, while it might make you FEEL more comfortable to put your hands over your eyes,you would actually be safer to keep your hands on the steering wheel and attempt to avoid the collision! It is the same with the last name thing. I am quite sure that most guys here ( I know that had had not) considered that a woman that I had spoken to a few times online, on the phone and dated a number of times for threee weeks would have any reservations about sharing something as basic and easily shared with everyone else as her name. I would have been kind of taken aback(and still would) at a wary even offended response.
I think that most of the men here share this view.



Who's not enjoying the process? Not me. My dating instinct has worked just fine so far and I'm actually having a really good time!!!!!! :)

Well...


Don't post at all because not EVERYONE is going to think your ideas are worth arguing over

She ain't havin' a real great time (other than bashing people)

Yes they are that paranoid only it's called being careful or prudent. The foundation for the fear is stories about deranged men who stalk and harm women.

Sounds like the plot to a horror movie...

Had a few loonies from social network sites land on my door at the old place so I never answer the door unless I know them.

Scared to even answer the door...

i weed out the garbage before i meet them.
by the time i meet them, i want their birthdate, last name, workplace, home address, all truths....

Garbage!?!

people need to be careful so what you perceive as unfounded fear is real fear to many people,


once you give out your surname then you can be looked up and they can find all sorts of stuff about you including your children's names and unfortunately we have all types of people on here.


Women can never, i repeat, NEVER be too careful these days.
OR men either for that matter!! Identities get stolen every single day, peoples homes get broken into, etc...their cars get stolen..all in the name of friendship online.

from you personally...

It angers me that people are so quick to jump all over the woman for doing the smart thing and respecting her life enough to be careful. Sorry, but we don't jump when you ask us to. And if you leave us for it, so much the better.


A person SHOULD NOT be giving out personal information to a stranger!!! They can if they want, but it risks their safety.

Many of us are not fretting about our personal safety and then dating the object of our fear, but more of your words...

There have been some famous serial killers who were very charming and were able to make women feel comfortable enough to give their information freely, and if those women were alive today I bet they'd regret it.

Again, sounds like you are equating dating with being killed by serial killers. Learn a lesson from the serial killers victims or end up like them!?! Does not sound too fun.
Just because you told her YOUR last name doesn't mean SHE should take the same chance. Plus, how does she even know it's your real last name and not a fake name you gave to coerce her into giving you hers?

Take a chance? Your words. Take a chance does not sound like a good time and enjoying the process. Obviously you are considering that your date is lying to you from the get. How much fun can that be?

YOU guys are the minority here and have lost opportunities with women because of YOUR dating attitude... and that's why you're so persistent in trying to convince us that there's something wrong with OUR dating perspective, and thus something wrong, mentally or emotionally, with us individually... because you want us to change our game plan but don't want to have to change your own.... Eh, that's just a guess... Else I have no idea what your problems are. But, really, they're your problems. Not mine.

Actually none (I think) of the men have felt the need to become insulting during this conversation. How much fun can you truly be having?
 Vannili
Joined: 7/8/2008
Msg: 86
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Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/10/2009 7:12:35 PM
" I usually don't tell a woman my real name until I 've noticed that we've been dating for over 2 years".

Well ,over a period of 2 years for good sex ,a guy should be called on his real name when she is in orgasmmo.Like Ooooh!! John Doeeeeeeeeee.
 thecheekychick
Joined: 10/18/2008
Msg: 87
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/10/2009 9:09:01 PM
Maybe she might have a bad background, or married. With a last name you can find anything about a person and their past.

Maybe you should stay away from her... She might be one crazy beeeotch! haha
 ohthereugo
Joined: 2/12/2008
Msg: 88
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/11/2009 3:51:33 AM
her last name is whatever
 RenaissanceMan1950
Joined: 2/20/2009
Msg: 89
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/11/2009 10:54:00 AM

trust needs to be earned


Actually, that's the fallacy that lies beneath those who refuse to trust. Some trust has to be given, in order for trust to be validated, and being comfortable in trusting more. Those who violate a small trust, like looking someone up in the phone book, and calling prior to being invited to do so, will have violated a "small" trust, and can be adjudged as untrustworthy. Wheras, if one refuses to trust someone she's dating with her name, seem to be trusting in their own "control" to feel safe, and it would seem very difficult to imagine developing trust.

Those who reference the bible might remember the parable of the "3 talents".....the servant who was given most, and performed well, was given greater trust, whereas the servant who was responding to fear, and tried to hang on what he had, was adjudged untrustworthy.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 5/19/2005
Msg: 90
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/11/2009 11:32:10 AM
I've had a part time job at a bookstore for 7 years...only the first names of the employees
are printed on the schedules and name tags. I'd say I maybe know the last names of half of those people.
To be honest...I don't even know the last names of some of the managers...hahahahaha!
But then...I guess I don't need to know them.


Trust does need to be earned...thats not a fallacy. When we first meet people...we maybe give them the benefit of the doubt...but I'm pretty sure you're not going to give a stranger the end of a rope...say" hold this"...and then proceed to jump of a building.
After knowing someone...you become comfortable with them...and your trust grows. As it comes...it can also go...you can also lose your trust in someone.
I feel the same about respect...I give everyone the benefit of the doubt when I first meet them...what happens after that...depends ENTIRELY on them...regarding whether or not I respect and/or trust them.

P.S. I think quoting ENTIRE posts line by line and responding to each line (especially when you haven't learned to use the quote feature correctly) should be against the rules. Jeepers...talk about annoying...and pompous.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 91
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Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/11/2009 11:57:19 AM

Trust does need to be earned...thats not a fallacy. When we first meet people...we maybe give them the benefit of the doubt...but I'm pretty sure you're not going to give a stranger the end of a rope...say" hold this"...and then proceed to jump of a building.
After knowing someone...you become comfortable with them...and your trust grows. As it comes...it can also go...you can also lose your trust in someone.

Ultimately, trust is always given... even those who say it has to be earned are giving it at some point.

"When you have done abc or not done xyz I will then determine that you have proven trustworthy and at that point I will give you my trust"

So, what's abc... and over what time period? What's xyz... and over what time period? << Most usually I've found people haven't really thought about what this criteria is for them. That kind of comes down to they are blundering their way through things with a vague sense that they are secure because someone has to prove they are worthy before trust is given. But if they can't articulate what that looks like to them, I can't see how they would be particularly effective in judging if the person in front of them is in fact worthy or not of trust. And to what degree? And when?

I think that's actually how people dupe themselves. As others on here have said, the notion creates a false sense of security that actually does nothing to make you secure.

Fact is, you can never really know whether people are worthy of your trust until it is in play. You've given it and they have by their actions proven it was appropriately or inappropriately given.

Relating with someone is dynamic, never static. It is either building to something or it's in decline.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 5/19/2005
Msg: 92
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/11/2009 12:00:26 PM
I don't always give trust...but maybe I'm just weird. Sometimes I never trust someone I meet...I might talk to them...I might interact with them...but trust them with my life...my secrets...heck my money? nope.
I couldn't read past the abc and xyz...sorry...my ADD kicked in.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 93
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Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/11/2009 12:07:02 PM
^^ I don't always give trust either.** Do you know why you don't? What behaviours they have either done or not done that have made you pull back and not give them trust? (that's the abc/xyz thing).

What sane person would trust someone with their life within 5 minutes of meeting??? Well, there are circumstances where you trust people you haven't met (a pilot comes to mind) but not in the dating world. I don't believe the thread is about trusting new people with your bank information in the first meet. It's actually would you tell someone your name within 3 weeks.

** Edit to add: Of course I don't date people I'm not prepared to give trust to either.
 karma1160
Joined: 6/10/2008
Msg: 94
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/11/2009 12:42:41 PM
I guess that would depend on how many times you have seen each other in 3weeks.
I don't like it when people ask too personal of questions right away simply because if it isn't a match I don't feel like I should have to reveal everything about myself to a complete stranger maybe never to see them again. I also truly believe that people get so caught up in trying to figure out if the other person is good for them or if they are liked that they lose the ability to be themselves and have fun. I want to know that I can enjoy someones company FIRST AND FOREMOST.
If you have seen each other more than 3 times or so and the person is still hesitating they either feel like you are trying to be pushy and they are holding their ground, or the have something to hide and they figure in your line of work you can dig it up.
 RenaissanceMan1950
Joined: 2/20/2009
Msg: 95
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/11/2009 2:29:10 PM

Saying that there's no trust at all without a last name is ridiculous. If a woman gives you her phone number, she's given you trust to either validate or violate. At that point, you usually wouldn't know her last name, right?. Does that hinder communication? It shouldn't, unless you make it an issue.


It's not about the last name, in and of itself, being the "holy grail" in getting to know someone. It's what it represents. In the hypothetical situation that you gave, where a woman has given a man her phone #, it's possible, especially for younger people, that it just "never came up".

The process of getting to know each other, developing comfort with each other, etc., is one where each person wants to reveal himself/herself to the other, as the other, likewise, reveals himself/herself. It's not about learning "facts", but in coming to "know" each other.

Rarely have I learned much worth knowing by asking closed end questions, but how well we are "relating" is discovered by how we each respond to the invitation implied, when we have asked each other open ended questions.

The "name" thing just seems weird to me. I don't know how many "first dates" I've had in life, but it's well into the hundreds. I'm not even sure how many women I've seen more than once, but I do know, that there's never been anyone with whom I've had a "second date", where we haven't known each other's names. Most of the time, at this point in life, we exchange business cards. It's a good conversation starter, among other things, inviting each other to talk about our careers, and so forth. A rather "safe", yet interesting, conversational topic that can engage the other in a free flowing conversation.

No biggie. I just know, if I'd been actively dating someone for 3 weeks, and it dawned on me that I didn't know her name, it would seem "off", and once things seem "off" in an early relationship, that's usually the end of things.
 oregonmeetsmesa
Joined: 9/22/2005
Msg: 96
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/11/2009 2:35:05 PM
When you have been dating a woman for three weeks and she won't divulge her last name,that's very wrong,and what ,could it escalate the danger on your dates as soon as your learn the last name? Boy sure raises some red flags.That is being overly paranoid without realistic justification.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 97
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Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/11/2009 2:36:23 PM

The issue of a woman not giving out her last name is constantly being related to be *controlling.* Controlling over what? Her own dating life?

It is attempting to control. Not always the other person (although they may perceive it that way), it's attempting to control risk. While there is nothing inherently wrong with attempting to control risk... there is a balance between opening up and getting to know someone and being closed off. Too much protection = closed.

There are women who are afraid to meet someone in a public place << that level of risk aversion is not conducive to developing a relationship initiated on an on-line environment.


What you're doing here is creating your own time table of when a woman should be ready to trust you with what, and if she doesn't meet your expectations, there must be something wrong with her because she doesn't trust you at all, which is clearly not true.
Maybe there is something wrong with her, maybe there isn't. But when a woman should trust you and with what is completely subjective. Everyone has fallen into waxing poetically about life and love because we're talking about feelings, not facts.

As information is shared during the "getting to know you" phase the connection begins to deepen and develop or it begins to wane. Arguably, a compatible couple will fall into similar ranges of how much and freely they communicate. So yes, while it is subjective, it does reflect how the two are relating together. If there isn't a mutual ease in developing the relationship it's likely going to wither and die pretty quickly out of the starting blocks. The exception to that would be if one person communicated a reason (that was reasonable or acceptable to the other) for wanting to hold back/rush into it.

It's not so much the timetable as it is the mutuality... being 'on the same page' as it were. As I've said earlier in this thread, if I wasn't feeling by three weeks that I was ready to give out information like my name, I would be thinking this relationship is going no where and wind it up.
 oregonmeetsmesa
Joined: 9/22/2005
Msg: 98
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/11/2009 2:52:20 PM
To the lady above me,meaning no disrespect but most of us have a phone number after a couple emails,let alone a last name.What you described made you sound like what the OP was saying.

I have had girls play the paranoid card with me,and on explaining how could it hurt,I still didn't get the info and of course I dumped them,understand my point,its not that I think they're so wrong,its that they're wrong for me, its that I greatly value a lady of adventures,and bravely travels the world unknown,one that takes risks,and in my book,this doesn't even qualify as a risk.So I believe this lady is too different for what I'm looking for,so I would dump her,without haste.

I bet there are as many men that act as what I believe is called paranoid also,and I'd bet the word they'd use to describe themselves would be cautious.

A lady once said, per her profile ,that she lived in Somewhere Arizona,I pried away her name from her and learned she was Sue.She later on the next email refused to tell me where in Arizona she lived,I only asked for a city.She said if she told me that I might stalk her. People are you kidding me,You learn a Sue lives in say Glendale,then what we drive into Glendale stop at the gas station ,slip the station man a five and say,hey,where does Sue live.

I think a fear should have some solid grounds behind it,I realize an unfounded fear is still quite scary to the beholder and I'm sorry they have those fears,but it is truly unfounded,so guess it will take a man that does not mind coddling this lady and a single fear like this usually is accompanied by more unrealistic fears.

Hope you have alot of patience.The good side is there are people available as a complementing match for every personality out there.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 99
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/11/2009 3:00:50 PM
^^^I agree with this, in normal conversation and during the getting to know you process, this never comes up as a topic really. The fact that it would be a topic when you're supposed to be learning what that person and YOU have in common is what's odd. IME it's something I give freely UNLESS I feel it's something they are fixated on or would use for any reason. It's the vibe of the person you're dealing with, really.

In the OP it was mentioned that being asked a couple times she "insisted" on still not giving it. Most people don't insist on keeping something from someone who could care less or asks in casual conversation. It's totally possible that she was reacting to an urgency on his part to know it...or a feeling of needing to keep it to herself because he was making it a priority, and it just wasn't. His posting a thread about it proves he has an issue with it.

If both are reacting to each other (one pushing because the other isn't giving, the other not wanting to give because it seems so important for the other to know) then they're both wrong.

Back to my point...after three weeks of face to face meetings I'd think I'd be a little closer to seeing her living room...NOT still trying to figure out who she is.

There's a lot to learn, and three weeks isn't a lot of time to do that - unless you're spending 7 days a week together...and that's not likely. What does her living room have to do with anything? lol
 oregonmeetsmesa
Joined: 9/22/2005
Msg: 100
Woman won't tell me her last name
Posted: 3/11/2009 4:20:00 PM

I agree with this, in normal conversation and during the getting to know you process, this never comes up as a topic really
I agree, its nothing I'd ever have an interest in knowing at first,but to each there own,in the old days everyone introduced themselves with a first and last name,so it would be a something or curiosity to half this world of older people or even a great number of church goers,who would say,hi were the Hendersons,this is Marge and he's Hank.The fact that your dating makes not difference in being open and polite,it even starts the trust process,something lost in todays dating rituals.


It's the vibe of the person you're dealing with, really.
If your getting the type of vibe that one could not give out something as harmless and mundane as a last name,then you should end it with that person.


In the OP it was mentioned that being asked a couple times she "insisted" on still not giving it. Most people don't insist on keeping something from someone who could care less or asks in casual conversation. It's totally possible that she was reacting to an urgency on his part to know it...or a feeling of needing to keep it to herself because he was making it a priority, and it just wasn't. His posting a thread about it proves he has an issue with it.
He dated her for three weeks,he should have known volumes about this person as should of she,there was nothing wrong with insisting,it shows hes ready to walk,which he should if openness is an important thing to him


There's a lot to learn, and three weeks isn't a lot of time to do that - unless you're spending 7 days a week together...and that's not likely. What does her living room have to do with anything? lol
Lots of people sleep together on first or second or third dates,that's what he meant,that he would think at that point he was cuddling arm in arm on her couch having wine.Now considering most the ladies I talk to ,even if I asked 5-6 person questions might respond with a sentence, so for these types that are severely challenged at the art of conversation, then yes, it would be hard to learn much,but he indicated they were dating for 3 weeks,and one cannot be on 3 dates and not know a ton,that is unless once again they are challenged at the art of conversation and so many are,they contribute almost nothing,as if they do not have to,and if thats how they feel,fine,they need to find someone that digs a lady that does not give of herself.

This tiny amount I wrote here in this one response,has been more than I have got back from some ladies in three weeks of trying to learn about her life over a course of 10-12 emails,me just basically taking an interest. Sometimes I think "some" girls miss the concept of dating,I think in their head its more like an act of listening rather than participating and withholding as much info as possible as long as they are able rather than being forthcoming,its as if no one told them how to be a affective communicator on an email or a date or explained why we share personal and non personal stuff.

That just makes her a type opposite of me,which is fine,others would really love that type.That's why the OP needs to split,shes not like him,not his type,that's OK,he needs to fish more and she needs to find someone that asks nothing personal of her,and end the getting to know you part,an act hard to imagine for some of us and normal for the others,and thats OK,takes alot of different fish to fill an ocean.

I'm OK You're OK..........its a good book....by Thomas Harris
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