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 Me Leona
Joined: 7/31/2008
Msg: 76
About the Friendship FirstPage 4 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
^^^ who's attacking whom? You even had to quote that sentence twice? I never thought I was attacking, just asking questions. The fact that you state you're 28 in your profile and I observed that doesn't mean I'm judging you. Anyway, I agree, YOU and I are never going to be an item. or maybe we already are! (my sense of humor, tell me you did not think I'm serious!) May I borrow your name please? And yes, I added it after your response, BUT I did have the laughing face there to indicate I was laughing but you took it serious. ALSO I had to put it here because the forum won't let me post after you now... forum rules you know.

I thought my last sentence:

No one approach is right or wrong, it all depends on the two people involved.

pretty much said I'm not judging you or your way .
Joined: 1/17/2009
Msg: 77
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/24/2009 12:46:56 PM

You have a lot of assumptions about me which are not even close to being true. Stop ANALYZING me, because like a true VIRGO you are, you are by birth in the boat you accuse of being in.

My! A wee bit testy aren’t we? Did you read that in a book too? “Dating the Astrologers Way”

Pretty presumptuous on your part., now we’re using astrology? Relax, I have no desire to analyze you, there isn’t that much depth in the pool for a good swim.

You admit to being unable to read women’s signals in this and your previous thread. A number of people have already suggested stopping thinking so much and just be honest. I can add nothing more to what has already been said.

Best of luck, You needn’t worry any longer about me OP, I’m off of this one.
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 78
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/24/2009 12:49:46 PM

when a woman says she wants to start out as friends, does NOT mean she's not romantically interested

Not all women, hence the OP's first message. You're right on the majority of it, though. But still begs questions, and points to the OP's first message. It can be grouped in 3 very different categories in general:
(1) A -claim- to want to be JUST friends. Strictly platonic. Not taking it slow, as there's nothing to take slow. Treating going out with someone as if they're a 1st cousin (that's what strictly platonic means).
(2) Wanting to take it easy with no expectations at first. Being on a friends-like level at first meeting, and taking it slow from there if it progresses. But it's never assumed to be a platonic endeavor.
(3) Wanting to take it easy with no expectations, with no commitments in mind in the future. Not looking to date, but just looking to have fun. Basically friends-but-more-than-friends. This could mean an all out FWB or the PG-13 version.

Reduces potential problems when one marks "Friends", if their profile explains what they mean by it.

(1) is total BS. It's a claim, but you wouldn't be on an online dating site looking for something strictly platonic. Myspace and facebook is for that.

(2) is the most solid. They should point this out in their profile, as again, Friends has multiple meanings.

(3) is vague.

Bottom line -- multiple meanings and some people use this to their advantage and keep it vague... and pin down a particular version after they've met them. Can be used to string people along, attention-getting, etc.

I'm not complaining though -- you can usually see thru people rather quickly anyway.
Joined: 10/1/2007
Msg: 79
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/25/2009 8:29:04 AM
If it helps... Friendship is a strong bond between persons based on a common activity, interest, hobby, or situation. Friendship is about common ground, the attraction of personalities without the confusion and distraction that sexual energy can create. Friendship relies on a level of attraction (physical, emotional, spiritual, psychological) just like romance does but it doesn't depend on it. Friendship blossoms even at a great distance and long time intervals, but romantic love tends to dwindle in the same set of circumstances. Friendship can survive dishonesty or betrayal much more than sexual or romantic love can. Friendship embraces the heart of another without regard for gender, preferences, body type, age, habits, family situations, hobbies, interests, and all the other factors that come into play when one is "in love" or "falling in love" or "being in love" or just down and out horny for another person.

Can friends be lovers and lovers be friends? Like most human relationships "it depends". I know that for myself, most of the women who are my friends have never been lovers and probably never will be. It seems that once the "friends" path is taken, the "lovers" path is never present. And I'm fine with that.

C. S. Lewis wrote an excellent book, "The Four Loves". In it he defines and explores "love" using the Greek words stergos,eros,phillia, and agape. When he speaks of "Friendship"/"Phillia" he contrasts it with "Eros"* and says something like, "eros wants naked bodies, phillia wants naked personalities", "eros is face to face, phillia is side by side". He also points out that a close friend can say something to you that may hurt a little but is accepted regardless, but a close lover saying the same will cause much pain. Eros and Venus are about "self" and the object of the affection or interest and thus looks inward to satisfy needs or to the other in adoration or a desire to have your need fulfilled by or in that person. Friendship is about the commonality and thus moves the focus outside of the individuals and way from the "me-ness" and desire to satisfy or be satisfied. The ancients believed "phillia" to be the most honourable of loves because of this movement away from self.

*Note: "Eros' is usually regarded as "sexual love" but this is not necessarily so (Lewis calls sexual love "Venus"). "Eros" is "being in love", possibly "infatuation", but not necessarily sexual and in fact may have no sexual component or expression to it. It's an inordinate (but not necessarily "bad") affection for and concentration on another. It is a "good love" unless it becomes the whole of the focus. The intensity of focus is what makes it "bad" - raised to the level of a god it becomes a demon.

Note: nothing here is cut in stone. General principles, general observations, applicable to most but not all because the great thing about human beings is that they are so unpredictable
Joined: 12/30/2008
Msg: 80
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/25/2009 10:10:53 AM
I think she was just saying she wanted to take her time and know you as a friend before she got to know you in a more intimate way. It sounds like she still viewed the 'dates' as dates because she let you pay but wanted you to know she was not in a hurry and wasn't ready to pursue a physical realtionship yet. However if you were in any doubt about this or confused, this was the ideal time to ask her about it.
Joined: 11/12/2008
Msg: 81
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/25/2009 10:19:12 AM
I agree with the idea of friendship while going on a date, but there are some exceptions to the rule.

If you meet someone just attractive, things might go the way you want them, with friendship and everything.

But if the other one is really attractive to you, you might lose your balance with the friendship after a while and start having feelings before they are due. Then one becomes impatient, moody, ready to move forwards and he or she can't, and everything goes down the drain, because the other one is not prepared to move forward...

This is where the real discussion and conditions to move forward appear. Everything should be fair and square, otherwise it is without safety net or recovery. If you know very well what the rules of the game are, it is easy to relax, become patient and go with the flow wherever you should be...
Joined: 12/30/2008
Msg: 82
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/25/2009 10:44:13 AM
I think most people are in the same boat, looking to meet someone and don't want to be messed about or ripped off. There are exceptions to that, the game players, but you ususally spot them quite early on. They are the ones that leave you analysing the things they have said and trying to work out what's going on. You will never be on the same page as these peolpe as they clearly have their own agenda and are not capable of honest genuine communication.

Getting to know someone as a friend first is somthing that should be fun, engaging, lighthearted and mutually enjoyable. If the balance is not right you will know quite quickly and then can decide to move on or continue with the friendship.

Relationships really shouldn't be this hard, you always get to a point where you know enough to know, it will either go one way or another and if you have to question it so much. . . then you know it is not working out. Simple as.
 Me Leona
Joined: 7/31/2008
Msg: 83
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/25/2009 12:35:48 PM
I like Ann Landers' definition:

"Love is friendship that has caught fire."
Joined: 7/22/2007
Msg: 84
view profile
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/25/2009 4:38:32 PM
I don't understand what all the buzz is about on this topic.
As kimbo has said before, I'll take a good friendship over a shaky love affair any day.
I know that my friends are very important to me, and I would not give up one of the name of Love for another. uh uh. If a woman I am dating is twisted because I have some friends that happen to be girls, then, I guess they'll have to make a choice.

You know.....I really dig this part of the post by RomanticOptomist:

Friendship embraces the heart of another without regard for gender, preferences, body type, age, habits, family situations, hobbies, interests, and all the other factors that come into play when one is "in love" or "falling in love" or "being in love"

In some odd way, it's like there is a world of people out there who diminish the wonderment of true friendship....and want to go straight for the 'heart'. Ahhhh...and isn't this where most of the trouble starts.???

Plus, there is that very distinct possibility that a friendship will catch fire and lead to more., as Liona says above^^. Call me wacky, but this seems perfectly logical in my head.
I can't imagine sitting down for the first or second time with someone and saying..."That's it...we're an's me and you girl, so let's call it exclusive, aigh't?"

As far as who pays for about splitting hairs. I have several wonderful woman friends....that's right, hanky panky, no illusions, no sexcapades. Do we go on dates? well, yeah, I guess so, I mean, sometimes we go to a movie, or grab a bite, like that. Sometimes we split the bill...sometimes she'll leave the tip.....if she's short on money, then I'll pay, in other words...we don't keep a ledger on the fund thing.
We talk about cool stuff, compare notes, yuck it up...and it's all good.

I've noticed that it's usually the people with few to no friends that are the 'desperately seeking' , in the love department. Ever notice that?

When a woman of substance declares that she would like to be friends with me...or, if it just happens naturally....I' m honored, man....I'm honored.

lighten up folks
Kimbo ********************************************

 Me Leona
Joined: 7/31/2008
Msg: 85
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/25/2009 6:05:33 PM
AMEN Kimbo! Friendships are so much more enduring than many affairs of the heart, eh? For some reason I just loved the "Dear Ann" column in the newspaper when I was growing up. Here's her entire quote:

“Love is friendship that has caught fire. It is quiet understanding, mutual confidence, sharing and forgiving. It is loyalty through good and bad times. It settles for less than perfection and makes allowances for human weaknesses.”
Joined: 11/1/2005
Msg: 86
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/25/2009 6:27:00 PM
Whatever happen to getting to know someone first. It seems people want to move fast and than get mad when the relationship fails and than wants to blame someone for the mistake they proably made. It is just like when you go for a job interview sometimes the people who are interviewing you might take their sweet time to decide if they want to hire you. That is how it is when it comes to wanting to date someone, you have to take time to get to know someone and see how you connect with one another. Granted alot of people proably on this site can get a booty call but in the end what does it lead to if you don't know how to relate to the person. Take care now.
Joined: 7/22/2007
Msg: 87
view profile
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/25/2009 6:43:43 PM
~~~ It seems people want to move fast and than get mad when the relationship fails and than wants to blame someone for the mistake they probably made.

Very good point there Extrememale.....thanks much for sharing that.

and, I like the complete Ann Landers quote too Liona.....hearing it that keyrrrist....I don't know anyone that's in love then......hahaha

good words all

 Autumn Marie
Joined: 7/11/2007
Msg: 88
view profile
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/25/2009 6:57:00 PM
It all depends, in this instance maybe she was saying, we're just going to be friends, there is no chance of otherwise.

But, I for one am a strong believer that the best relationships come out of friendships first, unless you develop a strong friendship while you're dating, then that works too. I've just heard about so many relationships that didn't last, because the two really didn't have that friendship bond, where they truly cared for each other and knew each other so well.
 Me Leona
Joined: 7/31/2008
Msg: 89
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/25/2009 7:56:07 PM
I'm sorry for over-posting. My online source did not give me Ann Landers' complete quote which I do have in a book, so I felt remiss for not quoting the whole thing correctly, so I must:

"Love is friendship that has caught fire. It is quiet understanding, mutual confidence, sharing and forgiving. It is loyalty through good and bad times. It settles for less than perfection and makes allowances for human weaknesses.

Love is content with the present, it hopes for the future, and it doesn't brood over the past. It's the day-in and day-out chronical of irritations, problems, compromises, small disappointments, big victories, and working toward common goals.

If you have love in your life it can make up for a great many things you lack. If you don't have it, no matter what else there is, it's not enough."

That last sentence to me just kinda hits me some way, like a block of wood over the head, why is that so hard to get?
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 90
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/25/2009 9:26:12 PM

So, I met offline a few weeks back this woman. We hit it off, met for a coffee, went on several what I thought were dates (she let me pay for everything) and then, to my astonishment, she says to me that she is looking for someone to be friends with, and see if anything else comes after that.
In this particular circumstance, I'd say the woman is stringing the guy along, expects "chivalric" largesse and entitlements. Now if for some reason you really like this woman (she might just be old fashioned but you may think she's still a dynamite lady), be her "friend". Just don't go out anywhere expensive, and hell suggest she pay for the next few times you go out. Then you'll know if she really thinks of you as a friend or a "friend" that she can sponge off of.

Now in general, I don't see why a guy couldn't date a woman who stated "friends first". It certainly wouldn't be my cup of tea, and I'd expect her to pay her part of any bill while we were out as friends. If I invite her out and don't discuss expenses, then I'll pay, but I'd probably discuss who's paying for what before we meet. I wouldn't agree to go anywhere expensive, because I'm generally not appreciative of that sort of self-indulgence. Now while we're on dates, I'd talk about stuff that friends discuss. I'd have no problem whatsoever with the concept of flirting with any other women while I spend time with her. She would see me do this, then if she still wants to go out as "friends", she knows what I might do when we're out (wouldn't someone want their friend to have a happy romantic life??)

Oh, I'd definitely be clear with a "friends first" woman that I will seek other women at any and all possible opportunities for romance. This statement then ought to clear up any misconception she might have about what "friends first" means. In other words, I'd elicit an intelligent conversation about the topic. It's called communication skills, expressing opinions, making polite observations, etc.
Joined: 10/13/2008
Msg: 91
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/26/2009 3:14:02 AM
Friendship fiirst is very important , without that u have no relationship
Joined: 8/10/2008
Msg: 92
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/26/2009 5:16:29 AM

Yes I agree. However I have met a guy I really like who has stated several times he only wants to be friends with me. WTF do I do with that??? Is the world going mad
Joined: 12/23/2008
Msg: 93
view profile
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/26/2009 5:23:38 AM
If sex is your priority (which it seems to be), the "friends first" thing means you're stuck in the friend zone. If she wants to be just friends, fine--she can pay for the next "date", and you can drool over other women in her presence without any jealousy on her part.
Joined: 5/31/2007
Msg: 94
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/26/2009 11:15:07 AM
I have skimmed through most of what everyone thought on defining "friends". I am not going to define nor explain this platonic friends things between a man and a woman. Luckygohappy68, like you, I was put in the friends zone after communicating with this guy for near four months. I can say from chatting and emailling with him, I was into him. After, I met him, I was more into him. I knew from the get go, that I did not want to be friends only. I wanted to be his friend and more. I don't have to explain the whole scenario, but I ended cutting off all interactions with him. Now, why did I give you this short synopsis. The honest truth, when you chatted and met with someone, some kind of frienship is already built there, but something else also develop within this frienship. So when she told you that she wanted only to be friends, it was a rejection in disguise. Instead of being blunt, she went around the bushes, using the friendship method. If I chatted, emailed, and met a couples of time with that particular person, I know I want to be friends, but I also know that person has my interest to something more. But, if I only see that person as friends only, he would be aware from the beginning. But, when someone says that he or she only wants to be "friends", then that is all he/she wants, keeping you as a buddy, until someone better come along, and you who accepts being "friends" while hoping that person will change his/her mind, will be the one getting hurt. My suggestion is cutting off all interactions, and move on. Your time and energy are too precious to waste on someone who can only see you as friends whether or not he/she has issues that he/she has to deal with. Issues are BS.... Excuses in my book. When someone WANTS something that he or she really wants, he or she does not let issues/anything stand in his or her way of happiness.... that is what I know.
 sally bentley
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 95
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/26/2009 11:24:52 AM
This is where that lady went wrong...

Personally, I'm all for taking it slow and getting to know someone before you date them. Everyone has a different relationship pace - and none are wrong as long as you are clear from the get-go.

She did not make her intentions clear from the get-go. She allowed you to pay and probably knew full well that you thought these were dates. She switched gears on you.

She started to date you and then had doubts about it, IMO. I'd write this one off unless you are interested in a friendship.
I totally agree. I met a man for coffee - I always insist on just coffee so there is no
big expense involved. Right upfront we both declared we just wanted friendship.
However, within 2 dates it became romantic and now I have been seeing him
exclusively for 5 months and adore him. I think we were both a bit scared at first so
the "friendship" thing worked well. It should be talked about right up front IMO as
everyone may be in a different place.
 sally bentley
Joined: 7/9/2008
Msg: 96
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/26/2009 11:31:51 AM
Yes I agree. However I have met a guy I really like who has stated several times he only wants to be friends with me. WTF do I do with that??? Is the world going mad
I would keep looking and dating others. If he is not romantically available, that is the
way it is. He is certainly being honest.
Joined: 3/20/2008
Msg: 97
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/26/2009 12:44:58 PM

I would keep looking and dating others. If he is not romantically available, that is the
way it is. He is certainly being honest.

AGREED....women have just as much right to do this as men do.
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 98
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/27/2009 5:38:32 PM

How would you like to find out that the man you try to get to know and be friends with for sometime is friends with you and everything, but sleeps around with other women? He got tired of waiting for you and already moved on to other targets, but kept on the list just in case.

It happened to me...........and I count myself lucky he moved on. I wouldn't even want someone like that. I was friends with my late husband for a looooooooooong time before even the first kiss. We flirted, etc.......but that was it. We lasted 20 + years until his death. Most loving passionate man I have ever known. But he was interested in more than " a lets hurry up and see". Something that burns fast........burns out fast. I like friends first. I wanna know what kind on man he is, before I get even a little involved. Once you get involved you become blind or less discriminating and sometimes discount things that bother you because of your feelings you rushed into. I want friends FIRST
Joined: 11/12/2008
Msg: 99
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/27/2009 9:33:38 PM

I placed a lot of thought recently about this topic, and got some new insights about it.

I got a story to back up my findings.

I dated my ex-wife for two years before marrying her. We started as many people here recommend, as friends. Intimacy occurred only after a few months.

I thought I knew her pretty well before marrying her, and yet I was wrong. That marriage started faltering after only a year and dissolved after seven...

There are limits on how well you get to know someone without being in a relationship with them, and before living with them under the same roof. The researchers say that it takes ten years to really get to know someone, and only if you are in a relationship with that person and live with him or her.

My conclusion is that the attitude with friends first won't get you far, except for the situation when you really meet the right person, which usually does not happen.

Than what is the solution to this conundrum?

The solution is dealing in numbers. Take a risk and meet many people. With some of them you might get intimate, with some not. The more dating experience one gets, the more likely he or she is able to find that partner they look for.

Of course, disappointment and failures may appear along the way. But the good word says, no pain, no gain. More you meet people, more you will find easier to size up people and weed out earlier the ones you do not want. In time, you will know exactly what you want, what works for you and what not, and have enough human experience to assess people in a relative short time...

Having a very conservative attitude and being stuck up in it will get you only that far...
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 100
About the Friendship First
Posted: 1/27/2009 10:06:34 PM
I am shaking my head...
1. There's a difference between taking it slow and being 'just frends' (platonic). Taking it slow means "it" is a form of romantic situation that you want to take slow, and not roll very fast (physically, meeting the parents, trips, etc). Being platonic means you mine as well be cousins, as there is nothing to 'take slow', because nothing exists -- you're just friends.

2. 'Friendship first' means you're friends and only friends. The term means it's first before something else. Not by actions, but by feelings. If this is the case, you're considering it strictly platonic, which is silly for prospecting on a dating site. You can't 'take it slow' and be 'friends first' at the same time. If you're friends first, you're just friends, and there's nothing to 'take slow'.


"Let's just be friends" -- does that mean let's take it slow, or does that mean they're not interested anymore?
"He's just a friend!" -- if friend = taking it slow, that means it's okay for your girlfriend to 'take it slow' with other guys? lol

Problem here is people like things vague. They don't know what they want or will want. Hence, they make the mistake of equalling "Friends First" to "Taking it Slow" (see above).

Friends first? You could be hanging out with a 'friends first' girl and ask her to meet up with you and your hot (real) date after dinner, to the bar. What's wrong with that? The other week you had your buddy's girlfriend meet up with you and a hot date before. That's what friends are, right?

Friends first means you're JUST friends before there's any possibilities of romance (fling, serious, casual, whatever) between you two.

Personally, I think that's people fooling themselves. Sure, we'd LIKE to be robots and have ZERO feelings before we knew the person on a trusting, solid level. But that's not the real world... and folks who kid themselves get in this classic situation:

"We're just friends. But we kissed some on our 2rd date... err, I mean hangout. And then I saw him at the bar with this skank, and he kissed her. In email, he told me she was just a friend and didn't sleep with her or anything!"

Bottom line: Call taking it slow or call it no expectations first. Otherwise, why would you go beyond the first meeting and spend time with them and continue to be only friends? That's silly. Call it what it is -- just taking it slow. That's not friends (see above).
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