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 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 2
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Reasonable access for infantsPage 2 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
Depends on the child. My kids were taken to my old jobs and passed from person to person, they were used to being around people they did not know. This would not necessarily be the case for a child that had led a more limited life in terms of knowing people outside of family and close friends.

If the child is comfortable, access is reasonable. If the child is having a problem, there should be some type of compromise that will allow contact without freaking out the kid.
 brandy_n_3
Joined: 8/27/2006
Msg: 3
Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/22/2009 9:22:12 AM
If this was my child, I would suggest starting first with you there for the first few meetings while he becomes acquianted with the baby. Then from there, short and sweet while the baby and father get to know each other and start to bond. So 2-3 hours. Once they have bonded, and the father is showing consistency in seeing the child, then move into full days. By the time the child is 18-24 months and in the toddler stage, and the bond has been formed,a nd the father has been playing an intergral role in the child's life, full weekends would be absolutely fine. Now if he is no-showing, or refusing those terms which imo are perfectly reasonable then let a judge decide. But I think if you approach it calmly and say how much you want him and child to have a relationship but do to the fact the child does not know him you want to ease into it, I am sure he will agree if he is really wanting a relationship with his child.

My kids are older 9&10 and I have this in place in our agreement because he doesn't know them and vice versa, the age of the child isn't so much the concern as the relationship to the other parent.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 6
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Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/22/2009 11:11:48 AM
A 8 month old can learn who the father is fast. Do a few 1-3 hour visits and then grow from there to over night and weekend visits if that is what the father wants. If not set by the court the father has the same rights as you, but it does not sound like he has been pushing for them to hard. Father/mother involvement is a good thing. Once he starts to spend some time visiting he might find out what a good thing the visits are and be ready to step up and take more.
 lorelei540
Joined: 8/14/2008
Msg: 8
Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/22/2009 12:22:38 PM

Because the father feels that he can just come and take my son for the whole day because he is the father.

He can, and for just that reason.


I feel that since they dont even know each other, a mutual rapport and relationship needs to be developed first before that happens.

Then you guys need to talk about it, and reach a compromise. You have 17 years and 4 months of co-parenting ahead of you, so you need to develop a mutually respectful relationship with your child's father so that you can work together on your son's behalf. Unless a court has ordered you to have full legal/decisionmaking authority with regard to your son, you don't get to make unilateral decisions about his care. Even if he lives with you, even if his father is unreliable. You must work together. Hopefully the concrete suggestions you get in this thread will help you two do that. Good luck.
 wanderbaby
Joined: 9/4/2006
Msg: 9
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Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/22/2009 12:33:14 PM
It depends on how involved a parent is in his kids' life, if it's once in awhile. then yes, a few hours per week should be followed. But if he's responsible in his life as well as being responsible for his child, then I don't see why he can't have him more than a few hours. Perhaps he can be around you and the baby all day and let him have full reign, while you're there to see how he handles having the baby for a full day. But as the baby gets older, the longer hours. By 2 or 3, overnight visits are done. Just reverse your situation and see if you can handle seeing your baby a few hours a week, you would think that would be unfair. I would think it would benefit the baby as much as the father to have a full day once in awhile. a few hours a week isn't enough time to bond. You say that they don't have much time to know each other, rapport and a relationship, then you need to give him more time with him so he can further the relationship. Perhaps every 3 days, he can visit him for a few hours then eventually have an all day thing. Better to start early so that both of them are use to each other from time to time and it sets structure at both places. Once they are older, it will be a little harder for the baby to adjust for more than a few hours. I can understand that it's hard to be away from your child for more than a few hours, but for the best interest for your child, he should have more time with his father. Perhaps if you allow him more time, your ex willmake more of an effort to be involved as well as work with you to co-parent the child you both made together. Make sure you document when he comes and when he goes, and so forth.
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 10
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Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/22/2009 12:59:14 PM
Try to be positive about things and suggest a neutral location so that the baby can get acclimated. Remember that it is his time, he needs to learn how to hold and relate to the baby. Men are different women, and you need to kind of let him figure things out. If you stress some of the things in this thread, you want him to spend time with the baby but you want it to be positive for both so as the child grows it can continue to be this way, hopefully you will get things worked out.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 14
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Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/23/2009 11:13:37 AM
So who supervised you when you first had the child and brought it home? This would mean all new parents mothers or fathers need to be supervised right!
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 15
Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/23/2009 12:00:58 PM

dont matter how much time he spends with the child, they should always be supervised until they are both comfortable.


That statement can easily be applied logically to either parent? All mothers should be supervised before they are allowed to parent their child alone!

The problem is all to often mothers seem to feel they have this inherent ability to parent. Now if you believe that to be true then perhaps one might then ask why you are not barefoot and pregnant also?

Perhaps if that was in fact a requirement then fewer children would be harmed. Supervised parenting would be mandatory for any woman who demonstrated any indications of postpartum to insure the continued safety of the child or children.

After all woman are very quick to discuss or suggest children are at risk with men....why not look at a few numbers and perhaps one realizes that young children under the age of 2 are probably more at risk from mothers than they are of fathers.

I will admit that is going by memory and not 100% confident of its accuracy.

B.C. stats;

Between 1979 and 1998, 55-70% of all children killed by parents were three years old or younger (rate varies by parental perpetrator, Statistics Canada, 2000). In seventy per cent of young child deaths, mothers were responsible, and in 55% of homicides of children under 3, fathers were identified as perpetrators.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 18
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Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/23/2009 1:00:50 PM
But may be the OPs child's father knows a lot about children and babies too. Please we know what you ment about supervision, you can back step or tap dance, but you were questioning dads not moms. My point is dads can and often time do a better job with kids. Now the OP case the dad has not steped up yet, but he might. He has the same rights as the mom, but should work to make everyone happy if possible. If not leave it to the courts. If someone had asked to supervise me with my kids you can bet it would have been on!
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 19
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Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/23/2009 1:49:44 PM
Teaching and helping vers supervision and words that will help the dad make the transition in a friendly way. Some dads do not step up and think I said it in my posts it does not look or sound like the OP's childs father has but, using words like helping to teach so you and the child are comfterble is much better then words like supervion. There are mothers out there that think they have extra rights with regards to infants and in fact they do not (think you had a few post like that jaxi remember).It does need to be looked at case by case. Yes, I had lots of one on one time early with my kids in fact because my ex had problems after the first C-section it was daddy by himself for the first two weeks. I did not ask to supervise her when she got out of the hospital lol.
 ChocolateNutt
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 23
Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/23/2009 4:04:13 PM
hey soul, I understand how they got that impression from your post. I've seen other posts and so realized you were not necessarily questioning the OP but rather provoking her thought. Maybe next time you could specifically mention that you think those are things she should think about--it would keep others from thinking you personally are questioning their beliefs or standards.

I think part of the difference in these situations is the timeframe. When you first take a baby home, they nurse, sleep and pee. You have a little time to grow into understanding their needs as they develop. I understand there are more complications with colicky babies or babies that have other problems, but really, in lots of those situations there's not much more you can do than love them, hold them and try to comfort them as best as possible. Their needs as infants are fairly basic. As they grow and develop preferences and their personalities become more obvious, you grow in experience with them. At least that's how I felt with my baby.

It's difficult for someone jumping in to fit into all those needs and wants without a little practice. As for childcare, I never left my baby with someone I didn't check out first and sure didn't start for a whole day at a time. I took her to a childcare I checked the references on and started out with a couple hours before I started work.

The other thing to consider is that Dad lives three provinces away from this woman and their child. It's not as though he lives down the street and so can make the effort to develop some familiarity with his child. And he hasn't shown any actual effort to be Dad when he is local. Not a very shining example of his ability to be responsible.

I don't think it's fair for people to be assuming that all Mom's believe they are only capable of taking care of the child and the father is inept. I know many fathers who are stellar parents and some whom I consider more capable than the mom. I made great efforts for my daughter's father to be in her life--he chose not to. Since the OP has commented that she set up dates and times for him to visit his child, and he didn't show up, I'd say that father is making the same choice.

Nutt
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 26
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Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/23/2009 6:38:27 PM
God damm you need to just stop talking. We don't need your win!
 ChocolateNutt
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 27
Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/23/2009 6:45:15 PM
freetime that is unacceptable and nonsensical.
 MuseInspired45
Joined: 1/6/2007
Msg: 29
Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/23/2009 8:08:25 PM
Option 3 it seems. No room for women bashing here freetime (or assumptions about women). Here's an alternative perspective:

Women have been socially conditioned (and socially constructed) to be the primary caregivers for centuries - it is only in very recent times that fathers have had primary care involvement - hence it will take time for several generations of fathers (on a general, collective level) to internalise what women have had access to for generations (despite little economic or social status attached). In other words, we had no choice but take up the primary care function because legally, morally, psychologically and socially, women were expected to perform these functions on the basis of being born with female genitalia - this is the result of patriarchal discourse (up until 1930's fathers had automatic legal rights to children and property) and essentialist assumptions about gender. Individual men have responded to this with the development of masculinist constructs that incorporate ideas associated with recognising the responsibilities inherent in raising children. Individual women have developed feminist constructs that respond to this by letting go of the aforesaid social conditioning.

Individual men and women still are struggling with these issues. And so humanity continues to develop - it requires self reflection and new ideas.

Babies require secure attachment with people (mothers, fathers, grandparents, extended family) in order to appropriately develop trust and functional life skills. Secure attachment for newborns requires daily, responsive, active people TO BE THERE.

This guy has CHOSEN to be non responsive, it is not her role to continuously "encourage" him to engage in a relationship with his child (afterall, no one encourages women to be engaged - we just do because there are no other options!!)

The consequences of HIS actions are that he will not develop a life enhancing relationship with his child - his choice.
 Irishgurl21
Joined: 5/22/2007
Msg: 30
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Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/24/2009 8:19:15 AM
Option 3 it seems. No room for women bashing here freetime (or assumptions about women). Here's an alternative perspective:

Women have been socially conditioned (and socially constructed) to be the primary caregivers for centuries - it is only in very recent times that fathers have had primary care involvement - hence it will take time for several generations of fathers (on a general, collective level) to internalise what women have had access to for generations (despite little economic or social status attached). In other words, we had no choice but take up the primary care function because legally, morally, psychologically and socially, women were expected to perform these functions on the basis of being born with female genitalia - this is the result of patriarchal discourse (up until 1930's fathers had automatic legal rights to children and property) and essentialist assumptions about gender. Individual men have responded to this with the development of masculinist constructs that incorporate ideas associated with recognising the responsibilities inherent in raising children. Individual women have developed feminist constructs that respond to this by letting go of the aforesaid social conditioning.

Individual men and women still are struggling with these issues. And so humanity continues to develop - it requires self reflection and new ideas.

Babies require secure attachment with people (mothers, fathers, grandparents, extended family) in order to appropriately develop trust and functional life skills. Secure attachment for newborns requires daily, responsive, active people TO BE THERE.

This guy has CHOSEN to be non responsive, it is not her role to continuously "encourage" him to engage in a relationship with his child (afterall, no one encourages women to be engaged - we just do because there are no other options!!)

The consequences of HIS actions are that he will not develop a life enhancing relationship with his child - his choice.


Very well put!!! If only everyone could think more "outside" of their own narrow vision and situations as you have done.

Yes, we all agree that the father should have access to his child no matter what. That is not in dispute, but as the above poster just mentioned it in different words, an infant, children in general, need a stable and loving environment.

In a perfect world, we would love to have the father's involved, but the truth is, we can't control anyone, but ourselves. And thus, all these petty fights (woman bashing and men bashing) ends up occurring, mostly out of frustration in our own situations. But we fail to see what is really in the midst of it all.... these kids.

Infants and children need stability, consistency in their lives... to have fathers (and even mothers) pop in and out of their life isn't always good for them either. Infants especially have to rely on us by trust! They depend on us being there all the time for their needs. (and I mean us with both genders included).

My ex has visitation every Wednesday and Saturday. I don't mind, its finally court ordered and I don't have to hear him blaming me for not seeing our boys when in fact prior to the court order, he just simply never called or always canceled. It just showed what his true priorities are in life. A good example is our second son was born on Jan 31 last year... he never came to the hospital to see him, I called him he said he was coming... never showed up. For the first 10 months, my ex never asked to see him, but had always complained I kept our son away from him. Now that he finally gets to see him on a much more regular basis... considering his 1st birthday is next Saturday, on a day he has a visit, he has chosen to go to the next province to take his gf to a concert instead of being there for his son's 1st birthday. Now you tell me what his priorities are in life....

Another example was our oldest son spent two weeks with my parents in Aug last year. I told him that I still had our youngest and he could call anytime he wanted to see him. In the two weeks our oldest was gone, he never called to see our youngest... he had simply sent me an e-mail at the beginning of the two weeks, mentioning he would see our oldest when he returned... then I didn't hear from him for two weeks. And the kicker is, after that he then started saying our youngest wasn't his... did so for awhile and then in his affidavit claims that I taunted him saying he was not the father... and this man is 29 years old. Pretty petty crap if you ask me. Our children deserve better, they deserve stability and loving parents, something my ex has yet to figure out.

We don't push these men out of our kid's lives, they do it to themselves. It sounds like the OP is in a similar situation. Despite her attempts at arranging times for the father to see their child, he still refuses to do so. OP, my advice for you is to just simply enjoy your time with your child. When the father does call asking for a visit, never deny him, but simply state that because he isn't in the child's life all the time that you will be present to make sure he is comfortable, and I mean comfortable in being around a young child that by the sounds of it, he doesn't really know. Infants need to learn to trust those that take care of them, and I think it is very reasonable to say that for the first 3 visits or so that you are present and the visits be like 2-3 hours long. Nothing more... as the child gets older, then you can look at day visits and overnights, but at this point, until the father shows more initiative, you are doing the right thing. Always let him see your guy's child, always make those plans, even if he doesn't show up. Your child will one day see that at least you tried to involve their dad in their lives. In the end, the child will see.

Good luck OP. I hope things turn out for you and your child and hopefully soon, the father will realize what he is missing out on.

 MuseInspired45
Joined: 1/6/2007
Msg: 32
Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/24/2009 3:34:25 PM
Thanks - there is such sensitivity for fathers around their lack of engagement - in Australia statistically only 40% of fathers pay child support, we have had to put up with a New Right fathers movement agenda (which inherently positions mothers and the family court as anti-male), so the development of a reasoned, logical approach has been politically necessary. Of course, what is often so very clear and validates the need for wariness, is the experiences of the children. As mothers we need to stop 'encouraging' men to be better fathers and promote the idea of self responsibility and choice - and at the same time, support our children through the journey. Am speaking very generally of course as there are many fathers who undertake the task responsibly. What always amazed me was when people would say, oh your kids dad is so good for paying his maintenance. My response was invariably - that is what they deserve and what he is responsible for - just as I am responsible for contributing financially as well. We put him on a pedestal for doing what he should be doing anyway, but give mothers no credit for their financial contributions. This of course is an entirely different thread and area of controversy!!! lol
 ChocolateNutt
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 39
Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/29/2009 8:01:11 AM
Oh Niki,

I'm sorry, I know that it is tough for the actual parent to see the parent who's not behaving like a parent to treat the children as conveniences or hobbies.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's anything you can do. It is the Dad's right, and more importantly, the child's right to have contact with both parents. Really, all you can do is arrange the appropriate visitation with Dad and hope he comes through. If he doesn't, all you can say is I'm sorry I don't know why Daddy didn't come today.

Nutt
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 40
Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/29/2009 2:00:54 PM

And the first week he visited, it was (obviously) at my house..v



Why should it be obviously at your house?

Can one say passive aggressive? Can one say controlling behaviour?

Why could it not be obviously a controlled access center where the supervised access personal are qualified NON judgemental individuals and perhaps not a vindictive ex with an axe to grind or the unfounded belief they have greater empathy for what is or is not proper handling of the child in question?


Women have been socially conditioned (and socially constructed) to be the primary caregivers for centuries - it is only in very recent times that fathers have had primary care involvement - hence it will take time for several generations of fathers (on a general, collective level) to internalise what women have had access to for generations (despite little economic or social status attached). In other words, we had no choice but take up the primary care function because legally, morally, psychologically and socially, women were expected to perform these functions on the basis of being born with female genitalia - this is the result of patriarchal discourse


So please tell me when you put on shoes and left the kitchen? In fact it seems too many woman these days have a hard time even knowing what to do in the kitchen, let alone being barefoot and pg there.

And centuries ago I believe the man was also buying the woman aka the dowry....and getting blind obedience from the wife and they were out toiling in the fields or battling in clan wars...all of which have little to do with today. So since the male conditioning for gutting enemies or social conditioning in respect to the strongest and healthy surviving has given way to over weight and heart conditions...I might suggest your tired arguement about social conditioning is centuries obsolete as well.....as centuries ago woman also were not challenging men on the weigh scale.
 wanderbaby
Joined: 9/4/2006
Msg: 42
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Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/29/2009 3:15:39 PM
Op, from w hat you've posted, it sounds like you moved, he stayed in Calgary, thus makes it his fault for not moving so he can be close to his son, right? or he was the one that moved back?

I can understand about the concern of someone not having the experience of taking care of a child prior to parenting, but just because you may have had more experience in child raising mean you're superior thus not needing supervision.

If you were to lighten up and realize that if you let him know thru verbal or written what your son likes and how he likes to be changed with diapers/clothes, then supervision isn't needed unless you have evidence that he has shown abuse or neglect when he did have his son. Courts go by that, not by how limited amount of taking care of a child. Everyone has to start somewhere. Yes, he's had limited time do to being around the baby but doesn't mean he needs supervised unless he's issuing a threat.

having this conflict over whose in control isn't going to help in the long run, may get worse so you need to find some leighway, perhaps meeting him halfway and let him have the baby for a few hours whle you can shop, watch a movie or whatever and then come back to get him. Maybe he doesn't want to go there much because he feels you are controling everything he does around the baby. When your son gets older and interacts more, he may interact more.
 ChocolateNutt
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 43
Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/29/2009 4:22:18 PM

Why should it be obviously at your house?

Can one say passive aggressive? Can one say controlling behaviour


I thought it would be so she could breastfeed when necessary--week old babies do nothing but eat and sleep. I know many people pump and bottle breast milk, I did myself, but it often takes a while for the milk to be abundant. I know he could use bought milk, but sometimes change doesn't agree to infants, and to the Mom whose breasts are swollen from not nursing, it's not a very pleasant experience. I would expect the Dad to be a little compassionate about those issues myself.

Nutt
 wanderbaby
Joined: 9/4/2006
Msg: 44
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History
Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/29/2009 5:05:09 PM
you can breastfeed anywhere, so that's really not a valid reason to have it at her house. The pump could be used to ease the breast from being swollen as well as storing milk to take anywhere in the few hours the baby is with the father. The baby is 8 months old, so is more active than a newborn that requires milk and sleep most of the time.
 ChocolateNutt
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 47
Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/29/2009 7:24:26 PM
wanderbaby, I wasn't referring to the child at 8 months. The OP said that the first visit was the during the baby's first week of life and that the visit was obviously in her home. Tealwood asked why it's obvious that it should be in the OP's home.

Yes you can pump. As I said, I did it myself. But the milk isn't abundant usually until after you've been nursing awhile--also from personal experience as well as reading of others' experiences.

It's a myth that you shouldn't give a baby an artificial nipple until they're a certain age--in fact if you hold off, some babies won't accept a bottle or pacifier. This happened to a friend who spent MANY sleepless nights trying to comfort her first baby who wouldn't accept a pacifier in place of the breast--even just for the comfort of sucking as she slept. My baby was in the neonatal intensive care unit because she was very tiny, there were times the parents weren't allowed in there, so she took both breast and bottle from day one. I think it depends on the individual child--maybe my friend's baby would have enjoyed a pacifier if given one right away and maybe she still would have refused it. . . . no one can know.

I agree, I never got any impression that the OP is ranting about the dad--she's just concerned that her child isn't going to be a priority or looked after because of Dad's inexperience.

Nutt
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 49
Reasonable access for infants
Posted: 1/30/2009 10:21:59 AM


I'm sorry for "going off" like that..its just I asked for advice, then I was being critized
And I was starting to feel bad by the things I read, when I really believe I am doing the best I can and am handling the things the best they can be given the situation...


I have always marvelled at those who are suggesting they are looking for advice when in reality they are looking for support...or validation for their direction that they have chosen to go.

In my choices I always looked for those who gave me true or honest answers and were critical or gave me answers that might be from my ex wife's perspective.

The truth or reality of what is in the best interest of my children based on my perspective is not necessary going to be the perspective of what my ex is going to view the best interest of our children.



Some people come in with their own agendas, and everyone's advice is, at the end of the day, based on their own perceptions. "You" know what your "Mama Instinct" is telling you, go with your gut on this one.


Of course everyone has their own agenda. It is based on their circumstance and where they have been and where they may go. Try being a single father who has to fight for every little right to be an involved parent with the ex partner where they in a relationship were unable to co-exist. They become dependent on the woman to allow a co-parenting relationship exist. They have to hang in and perhaps take the emotional abuse...the emotional blackmail the emotion ridicule so that they can become or stay involved with their children.

Now i was and have counselled fathers to stay in the marriage at all costs until the children reach a specific age. It is not the same reality for woman but for men who see the marriage failing the reality is simple. if your ex is controlling...suggests she alone or woman alone know how to raise children...sound familiar ladies...then you stay with the cow until your children reach an age where they are able to articulate their own choices and you have established a relationship that the vindictive ex cannot harm.

Again that is the reality that men face...something woman do not have to ever consider.

So yes a father who is absent should be perhaps supervised under qualified access conditions...


But understand how the other side feels having to listen to some who feel they have this predisposition to knowing how to parent...simply because of their gender.

and at the same time they supposedly suggest that they can be just as good in the work place because gender discrimination is no longer valid in the work place..

Ladies...some of you have no morals...you ask for rights on one side of your face while suggesting special consideration out of the other side.
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