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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Creationism in schools [CLOSED]      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Snapington
Joined: 7/29/2008
Msg: 26
Creationism in schoolsPage 2 of 61    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
Frogo, read carefully I said Cro-mag and Neandertal are the same not Homo-sapiens.
I like a good fairey tale at bed time not during school.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 27
view profile
History
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/16/2009 6:54:40 PM
Cro-magnon are H.sapiens. Neanderthals are H.neanderthalensis. They existed in the same times and regions, and differ both anatomically and genetically. Cro-magnon is modern man, not neanderthal man. It's off topic, but no sense giving pseudoscientists more ammunition via false information.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 28
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 3:07:02 AM
Creationism cannot qualify as a scientific theory. A scientific theory must contain the means to test and falsify itself. To the best of my knowledge, no creation advocate has offered a theory which contains within it the means to disprove the existence of a creator. Without that, creationism cannot be subjected to the scientific method and does not qualify as science. Since it does not qualify as science, it should not be taught as science.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 29
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 3:15:38 AM
I teach an epistemology course to 11th & 12th grade students. We discuss creationisn and intelligent design as part of the course content and compare them, as knowledge issues, to the theory of evolution.


Do you also point out what kinds of ``theories'' qualify as scientific theories? That should be right in line with your course, since the person most responsible for pinning down what constitutes a scientific theory and separates it from faith was Karl Popper.
 HO2
Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 30
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 4:15:02 AM
Since we have many students who are of different faith,
we can't possibly teach creationism and teaching creationism is illegal
and should remain being illegal."


If the USA really cared about students , ALL students in all 50 states would get the same education,
with the same books and resources under citizenship in the USA.
**This nonsense of being born into a poorly funded community school system has got to stop.**

It's illegal to cheat and steal proper education from children in the """united states"".
If it was called the ""seperate states of america"" or the "unique communities of america"" I might understand differently.

Creationism has no place in the USA school system.
Church and state are to remain separate at all times, no infractions, ever.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 31
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 7:12:44 AM

If the USA really cared about students , ALL students in all 50 states would get the same education,
with the same books and resources under citizenship in the USA.

That would be a terrible way to educate students. Instructors ought to be able to evaluate textbooks and pick the textbooks they consider most suitable rather than leave the selection to administrative people with no specific knowledge of the subject. A diversity of textbooks is much better.
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 32
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History
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 8:19:04 AM
It is an American issue because of the separation of church and state so important in the country's founding. Almost all monarchies have some religious basis that grants political power and/or dominion over others at the expense of the individual and that is counter to democratic ideals.

When some religious movement perverts science to put their religious philosophy in state functions such as schools, then they are attacking democracy itself.

At the same time, science is often perverted from the inside when theory is taught as fact. I would much prefer students be taught to think, not memorize because "that is the way it is". Teaching evolution as a theory to be developed gives students a purpose to question and inquire. That does not happen with dogma of any kind. National education standards are fine as long as done in very limited moderation as such standardization risks becoming dogma. Its much harder to argue for the teaching of the dogma of evolution verses the dogma of creationism in whatever wrapping.

I find it interesting that those to the North who's pledge is:
"I, ...................., do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors. So help me God."
would be critical of the religious beliefs of those to their south with no inbred monarch.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 33
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 8:26:58 AM
Abelian - Like that science teacher that taught evolution wasn't real and burnt crosses into his students arms, right? If we leave it up to individuals to decide what to teach, some people wont get a proper education.
 HO2
Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 34
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 8:46:31 AM
So some poor kid in a poverty stricken community in the USA gets a half ass education
while some kid in a wealthy funded school district gets boatloads of resources.
Both are American citizens, born into the country not of their own free will,
yet one suffers immensely thru life because of a lack of decent education resources....hmm.

Teaching intelligence : the roadblocks
They are so many factors affecting achievement -- poverty level, cultural background,
administrative habits, state funding formulas, union strength, taxing authority, school board politics
-- it is almost impossible to decide conclusively what has a positive impact.

Level the playing field while raising the bar quite high
--each citizen gets the best American can offer as a nation
--teachers become governmental employees getting paid a decent salary wherever they live

In my opinion :
Each state CANNOT make up its own rules willy nilly or the union (state of the union) falls apart.

The children of the USA suffer because of the ego's, arrogance and selfishness of the educators
--Combine all that, with th Religious Beliefs of the educator, and it all falls down the toilet.
Throw out the babies with the wash water so to speak.
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 35
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History
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 9:15:25 AM

I don't think it has to do with monarchies or separation of church and state.

The US emphasis on separation of church and state is pretty much all about totalitarianism in any form and freedom of the individual even in religious matters. In the time of the US founding, totalitarian government came from monarchs that were often tied to their country’s religion and sometimes considered head of the church. Had the founding fathers of the US been able to foresee Marxist based liberal ideals, I don't doubt they would have addressed this form of totalitarianism as well. They saw government as having a tendency toward totalitarian suppression of individual freedoms and created the US constitution to limit government. This lack of foresight has allowed the US government to grow along liberal lines almost unchecked with a conservative, often religious, backlash in response. Thus we have the evolution in schools debate with the fundamantalists claiming to be the oppressed.


...there is no question that creationism or intelligent design would be taught in schools as a discipline, thought or theory comparable to evolution.

That would seem to imply ALL the teachers are identical. In reality, all are individuals with biases as are those who dictate curriculum by the state.
 HO2
Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 36
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 9:23:59 AM
Teaching is all about the majority -- not just a few flashy people who happened to excel against the odds.
Education is for the masses, not the exceptions, not the unique, not the privately funded.

Perhaps if we taxed all the money churches touch we could finally properly fund our schools
....there is a awful lot of land with religious intent being used as a way of avoiding taxes

The fact IS - church and state being separate is a complete myth in the USA

The Christian Coalition holds a 501(c)(4) tax exemption that allows it to endorse
candidates as long as partisan politics is not its primary activity.......wtf !

President Bush's successful reelection effort owed much to the support
he received from highly religious voters, especially white evangelical Protestants.

Perhaps Obama will break this idiotic trend and make the USA whole again,
regardless of cultural, religious or ethnic background.

 HO2
Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 37
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 9:54:12 AM
^^And our kids still suck in remedial skills when stacked up against other countries
--repeatedly getting their arses handed to them because USA families don't value education

They would rather send their kids to Catechism and Church instead of crack the books.
If the USA had its priorities straight this forum thread wouldn't exist.
 tuezdaye
Joined: 12/11/2008
Msg: 38
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 10:09:18 AM
I think it's an error to assume that modern science is somehow contrary to Genesis and disproves it. The quarrel between evolution and creationism seems to me to be taking place in a world utterly devoid of imagination, in which supposedly learned intellectuals and the most fundamental fundamentalists read Genesis with equal literalness and simplicity of mind.

Genesis, of course, can't be disproven by modern science, any more than modern science can be disproved by Genesis. The biblical story of creation and the science of evolution come from two radically different kinds of thought -- or two kinds, even, of consciousness. The early chapters of Genesis welled up out of the deepest reaches of human imagination and inspiration. They tell a story of great sanctity and beauty that's resonated through our culture for thousands of years. As a not overly qualified supposer, I suppose that we ought to know this story and heed its warnings. Evolutionary science, on the contrary, is rational and empirical, excluding by principal the sort of genius that gave us the Genesis story. Like all science, it's an attempt to deal with evidence that's available, and to limit itself to that evidence. I suppose also that we need to know about this science, which, like Genesis, has important things to tell us about our relation to this world -- and which, intelligent as we may be, we haven't much applied to our way of thinking in this world.

I venture to say that no young mind is going to be seriously warped by exposure either to Genesis or to the theory of evolution. If I had children in school, I would prefer that they should be taught both. But I would prefer that they should be taught intelligently about Genesis rather than unintelligently about evolution -- and vice versa. I would say moreover that a governmental requirement to teach only one or the other is not consistent either with freedom or with the dignity of teaching.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 39
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 10:34:39 AM

Abelian - Like that science teacher that taught evolution wasn't real and burnt crosses into his students arms, right? If we leave it up to individuals to decide what to teach, some people wont get a proper education.

That is a strawman. Hire instructors that are competent to teach the subjects for which they are hired. Any instructor who is competent to teach a subject is competent to choose a textbook which contains the subject matter.
 Snapington
Joined: 7/29/2008
Msg: 40
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 11:16:44 AM
ismene1 Why don't you google church attendance in Europe. You will find that your claims of being in a very religious country rather weak with attendance levels about 20% or less if it wasn't for tourists the churches would be empty. The europeans are very much over the BS spouted by the pope and his cronies. Creation myths belong in literature class wwith all the other fiction. As far education you have touched on something I know money does not equal brains and resources would be better spent on smart kids equally without regards of income.
 HO2
Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 41
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 11:28:16 AM
Sooooo the gym teacher who teaches history is competent........please, stop the insanity


Any instructor who is competent to teach a subject is competent to choose a textbook


Far tooo many schools have teachers teaching outside their core competencies
State by state teacher competencies are quite broad for the generalist
and many states base them on the INTASC Core Standard Competencies
(Interstate New Teacher Assessment and Support Consortium)

Damn...almost anyone can teach in the USA
You must hold a bachelor's degree.
You will """usually""" need a degree in the area you wish to teach.
You """may""" be required to show proof of a strong liberal arts foundation

In an effort to attract more teachers, especially in shortage areas,
a number of states have encouraged and established programs
that offer nontraditional routes to teaching.
As such, they have often established special licensing procedures
for non-traditional candidates.
Requirements for an alternative teaching license vary by state.

Sure--let ANYONE choose the books for our youth.............holy snot
 compleat_man
Joined: 10/3/2008
Msg: 42
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 11:36:55 AM



.Austria is very religious. Every Catholic holiday is celebrated with stores closed and schools off, etc


huh..were they very religious when they supported the nazis and persecution of Jews and other minorities, as well?

well, perhaps, since some Roman Catholic priests, bishops, cardinals and the pope felt that Jews needed to be 'punished' for their 'role in Christ's death'..also they always align with the power, they felt the nazis had the power, therefore follow them

and please, don't lie and/or try to insult my intelligence and say that many/most Austrians never did that..even the infamous Kurt Waldheim was a 'good nazi'..

you can keep that kind of 'religion'..
 HO2
Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 43
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 12:05:59 PM
^Ismene1 , we agree
Often I worry that those who attend church a lot are the very ones who need it the most (i.e. they have the worst conscious)
 HO2
Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 44
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 1:17:49 PM
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
That represents the Seperation of Church and State JUST, by not establishing an official religion.
That line does NOT state that the government can not use religion.

All American's said the pledge of allegience with the phrase "one nation, under god..."
Everyone handles our currency, which has the phrase "In God We Trust" on it.
During the presidential debates, both the candidates, John Kerry, and George Bush,
ended with the note of "God Bless."

Well what about those of us who don't believe in god--maybe we should have a say in how the schools are run.

Taken from Lemon v. Kurtzman (1971), the Court established a three-prong test
to determine if a governmental action is neutral toward religion, and therefore passes constitutional muster.
First, the governmental legislation must have a secular purpose;
second, the primary effect must be one that neither advances,
nor inhibits religion;
and third there must not be excessive governmental entanglement with religion.

The USA school system definitely has its share of interesting hurdles to overcome
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 45
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 1:21:12 PM

Far tooo many schools have teachers teaching outside their core competencies

Well gee, then I suppose buying a textbook solves that problem, NOT. Hire competent teachers and let them use their education to teach. Fix the problem, don't try patching it with another problem.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 46
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 1:26:23 PM

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
That represents the Seperation of Church and State JUST, by not establishing an official religion.
That line does NOT state that the government can not use religion.


Using religion is the same as establishing an official religion. Religious nuts try the most tortured arguments to try and evade what's staring them in the face.
 HO2
Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 47
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 1:34:53 PM
Buying textbooks post 64
^^^nicely taken completely out of context--well done--superior job !
My posts have focused around a national school system, with the same books for all citizens of the USA,
regardless of which state they got their education in.

Check out---Religion & Politics a Frontline documentary on PBS
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/view/

for further references
http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/withgodonourside.php
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 48
view profile
History
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 3:51:16 PM

Should schools respect the supposed "controversial view" of creationism vs evolution in science class?
No.

Should they be on equal ground as far as theories go?
No.

Should creationism be banned in a school setting?
Not in faith schools.

Do you think that people who don't believe in evolution should be taught creationism instead?
No.

Why or why not?
Over 10 years ago, I told people about caloric restriction that was written by a Jewish Rabbi who was a doctor, and they said I was crazy, because religion has no place in science. Now, scientists are going crazy about how wonderful caloric restriction is. I'm fed up with the number of times I've been told that religious people were crazy, or ignorant, or someone else was crazy, or ignorant, and then scientists came along and said the very same thing, and claimed that they'd discovered it. I'd rather be able to tell my kids about all these examples, show them the articles, let them talk to these scientists, and then let them realise just how fubar and anally-retentive the scientific community is, so they can develop a healthy scepticism of anything in science, and then whenever they read a science article, they don't accept it like it is out of a gospel, but actually analyse what's written and check it out for themselves, with experiments if possible.

At least that way, they stand a good chance of realising that 90% of what is taught in our school curriculum and portrayed by our media, is controlled to make us into nice, comsumer-driven drones, and that since science is funded mostly by the government anyway, the government tells scientists what to say, and can be trusted about as far as anyone can, whose family is being fed on the say-so of politicians.
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 49
view profile
History
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 7:05:19 PM
Austria, is exceedingly liberal. Yet,though it is also a very religious country (Catholic) there is no fundamentalist Christian conflict between church and state and the struggle between creationism and evolution simply does not exist.

The US religious identity is primarily protestant, not Catholic. Generally, Catholic philosophy is not far from classic liberal philosophy in many ways. The dominance of the church and dominance of the state over individual freedom and opportunity are interchangeable. This essential difference between the impact of Catholic philosophy and Protestant philosophy brought many people to the US from Europe to escape the church and state oppression. Too often, the classroom is a similar environment. That is part of the concern over teaching creationism in the classroom.


I'd rather be able to tell my kids about all these examples, show them the articles, let them talk to these scientists, and then let them realize just how fubar and anally-retentive the scientific community is, so they can develop a healthy scepticism of anything in science, and then whenever they read a science article, they don't accept it like it is out of a gospel, but actually analyze what's written and check it out for themselves, with experiments if possible.

My earlier comments concerning science becoming dogma from inside was this same point but to paint all science as some kind of evil is as wrong as finding all religious thought as wrong. It ceases to be science and becomes a "religious" belief when it ceases to embrace challenge. Many sciences grew out of religious questioning although many of those who did it were punished for their efforts.
 Snapington
Joined: 7/29/2008
Msg: 50
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/17/2009 8:26:12 PM
Creationists can now vacation in the wonderful valley of Swat in beautiful Pakistan where their fundy views will fit right in. In am afraid of fundies.
To believe that protestants were not as dogma driven as catholics is wrong. They used their ministers to rule the peasants. The reason so many germans came to America was to get away from the oppressive class structure aided by the church that was supported by the gentry who owned the land.
Not to mention our own taliban known as the pilgrims or puritans who used a theocracy to rule Massachusetts. The whole seperation clause in the constitution comes from my states colonial charter of 1663 written by Dr. John Clark of Newport. This is the document James Madison used to help draft the constitution. It was so good that we used it as our state constitution until the 1840's. I am from the birthplace of freedom from religion. From Roger Williams, Anne Hutchinson And Dr. John Clark the first totally free colony in America even non-believers were welcomed.

Sorry for derailing the thread earlier.
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