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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Creationism in schools [CLOSED]      Home login  
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 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 107
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Creationism in schoolsPage 5 of 61    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
Alas, radiocarbon dating is only useful out to perhaps less than 100,000 years.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 109
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/20/2009 6:56:17 PM
So Mark, you are now challenging basic cosmology and challenging me to offer "proof" of it - in essence, to justify the work of hundreds of astronomers, cosmologists, theoretical physicists, etc. Well, I could write an entire dissertaion on the current status of cosmological understanding but, quite frankly, I would wonder if there is truly any point since anything I offer based on current observations are not acceptable to you as "proof." And it is not my place, nor am I inclined, to justify the hard work done by those scientists.

What would you accept as proof, quite frankly, short of a an actual bible passage, is beyond me. Are you seeking to be truly educated or are you simply looking for justification of your viewpoint. I'm not going to convince you of the process of evolution, despite the evidence all around you.

Now let me ask you, how do creationists such as yourself justify placing constraints on your Creator for how He created the universe? You are, after all, the created. You did not do the creating. Do you not find it arrogant to assume you can place those constraints given the things that are being discovered about the natural world? The fact that these discoveries would seem to indicate a far greater artistry to his Creation should be something those who believe in Creation would revel in, rather than resist.

However, to get back to the original point, does creationism belong in schools? No. It's based on religious teachings, not real science. Since you refuse to acknowledge even the basics of science, I'll leave you to interpret this response however you prefer.
 EvilLolli
Joined: 12/7/2008
Msg: 110
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Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/20/2009 9:40:30 PM
I find all of the animosity against religion(since some religions seem to be allowed but not all) being allowed in school a bit foolish. JMO.
Almost all religions and sciences at the very core are based on the same thing. Observing the world around humans and trying to come up w/ a plausible conclusion as to why things are the way they are. Some cultures chose myths, some religion, some a more scientific approach. All were seeking the same thing, to use their observations to explain why the world is the way it is.
If it is taught in school(regardless of whichever class it is taught in) doesn't it give the children in that class a chance to develop their brains enough to think in different ways so they can think on their own? To think outside the box so to speak?
Also there was science before darwin, there was medicine also. And as time progresses scientists are finding out some "pre-modern-science" discovers were valid though the use of them was originally based on myth/folklore/religionist belief. For a few examples: Aspirin(indians and willow bark), pagan yule(longest night of the year), birth control medicine(ancient Egypt to the middle ages), or many more.

I am against indoctrination of anyone into any closed mindset. I do however believe you need to give as many possible options as are available in order for a person to develop their own mind. Comparision, contrast, and debate w/ information is the only way people can advance their minds.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 111
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/20/2009 10:57:18 PM
I agree with the above post. Let's teach kids that gravity doesn't exist, it's just Sin holding us down. We should also teach children that God turned into a Bull and raped many women. (Zeus myth)
We should also teach children that Gods can sometimes come from the genitalia of other supreme beings. (Greek myths)
We can also teach kids that the moon is made out of cheese and there is an old hermit who actually lives there!
We can do ALL of this in science class! It will become so pack with content that we wont even reach the actual science portion of science class.

In actuality, I heard that if America became a Theocracy, we would end up like the middle east. The middle east use to be very scientific until they became a theocracy. Now look at them.
 EvilLolli
Joined: 12/7/2008
Msg: 112
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Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/21/2009 3:59:34 AM
Wow way to totally mis-read and interpret a post! That is so not what I was saying. Good job completely missing the point.
I didn't say NOT to teach children scientific facts. I was saying that they should be given as much information about the world, theories, cultures, beliefs, etc as possible so they can learn to think on their own and learn from the different perspectives that are out there. Being taught about only one way of thinking or seeing the world is narrow minded and doesn't allow for debate, discussion or growth. If often seems to lead to a "my way is the only proper way to view the world" mentality.
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 113
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/21/2009 7:01:09 AM
^^^

True enough... but those things should NOT be taught in science classes. Rather, they are more properly taught in History, or Comparative Cultures, or some other field that doesn't suggest to the student that these are anything more than ideas.

I don't have a problem with Creation being taught in schools - my problem is when people suggest that it deserves equal footing with Gravitation, Thermodynamics, Fluid Flow, or any of the other *independently verified* concepts in modern science. (And that includes evolutionary processes...)
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 114
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/21/2009 12:49:18 PM

I didn't say NOT to teach children scientific facts. I was saying that they should be given as much information about the world, theories, cultures, beliefs, etc as possible so they can learn to think on their own and learn from the different perspectives that are out there.

That requires clearly dileneating between ``science'' and ``not science,'' and then teaching science in science class.
 themoreILearnthelessIknow
Joined: 1/4/2009
Msg: 115
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/21/2009 2:12:18 PM
Creationalism/Intelligent Design....is this garbage still being pushed?

ID a name for something that continually gets shot down in court, they have a new name I read about a few weeks ago but can't remember it at the moment. No matter how many times Creationalists try and change the verbage they can't get away from the core problem. Creationalism teaches nothing, science does. Creationalism dosn't help us understand the world around us science does. The anti-intellectualism behind the ID movement is scary, they would destroy science to keep their beliefs safe. They want science to teach the supernatural but only their version of the supernatural. I think the interesting part is that the ID movement is actually afraid to admit what it stands for and what it wants. Claiming to be right, claiming to hold the moral high ground it does nothing but slip around and get meally mouthed when asked for specifics. Dixie I bet you could move to the middle east and find plently of places to teach Creationalism but then again most countries in the middle east cant even make their own aspirin.
 HO2
Joined: 10/11/2008
Msg: 116
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/21/2009 8:56:05 PM
We currently have a faith-based presidency and therefore the "Church" thing never goes away in the USA.
George Bush has absolute faith that Jesus Christ is the son of God who died for our sins.
He also has absolute faith that invading Iraq was the right thing to do,
despite all the evidence to the contrary.
It's difficult, if not impossible, to separate these faiths.

Mitt Romney has been quoted in the Washingington Post
"freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom…freedom and religion endure together or perish alone."

Until American voters grow a set of steel balls and eliminate religion from politics
--this issue of Creationism in our school will continue to rear its ugly head
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 117
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/22/2009 7:15:26 AM
But you *don't* have a faith-based presidency anymore... unless you're going to lump Mr. Obama into that category as well...

Also - the American voters have already voted down adding Creationism to school curricula several times... it's just that those pushing it are unable to take 'NO' for an answer.
 ForeverLong
Joined: 11/22/2007
Msg: 118
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History
Creationism in schools
Posted: 2/22/2009 8:33:24 AM
Creationists and their new approach called Intelligent Design have no proof that their theories are valid. Evolution has fossils, DNA and plenty of other proof that cannot be disputed. Why are people still arguing about this? I think it's a religious problem for a lot of people. But why is it? Even the Catholic Church accepts evolution. Look it up if you don't believe me.
 DixieGent
Joined: 1/1/2009
Msg: 122
Creationism in schools
Posted: 4/26/2009 12:39:53 AM
Haha! I love how all you Darwinist type were aroudn back then to tell us with authority that an explosion was not really an explosio in the sense that we think it was!--Hahaha That really cracks me up.

Either the "big Bang" was just that, or it wasn't I can't be only when it suits, then NOT be when it doesn't exactly fit.

SCIENCE does not work that way. Course we don't want to confuse the kiddies so they can't distinguish "fact" from "fantasy" now doe we? --that is rich.


 DixieGent
Joined: 1/1/2009
Msg: 123
Creationism in schools
Posted: 4/26/2009 12:49:35 AM
Hello Fugacity,

The problem is not with the term "evolution" per se. Even as a Creationist I believe in evolution of a sort. The type of evolution that IS scientific because it IS observable, demonstratable, and to a great degree of success-- repeatable. This is the type of evolution that we call microevolution (big changes in a short span of time). Certainly there is no argument against it.

By the processess of microevolution, we have black cows, white cows, black & white spotted cows, brown cows, red cows, cows with long hair, cows with short hair, cows with long horns and even cows with no horns--> BUT they are all still COWS and the common ancestry can be seen between them all it is called --> BOVINE.

What we DO NOT SEE, in nature now, NOR in the fossil record, are ANY suggestions at all that a "cow and a whale evolved from a common ancestor" Darwinist try to muddy up the argument by falling back on an aspect we are all actually in agreement with (micro-evolution) However, I have YET to see how any of them have extrapolated any evidence to suggest that microevolution (reality) in ANY WISE supports Darwinist fantasy (macro-evolution--> or small changes accumulating over vast spans of time) THAT is basically the gist of the biological argument.

Thank you all and God Bless!

DixieGent
 Intent8762
Joined: 1/6/2009
Msg: 124
Creationism in schools
Posted: 4/26/2009 1:59:49 AM
What an epic waste of time. I believe in a God.. you don't Verzen.. get over it! so fricken what!. Why even debate it, seriously....Neither side can prove either wrong. Live and let live ffs.
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 130
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Creationism in schools
Posted: 4/26/2009 1:38:07 PM
The current "Big Bang" model isn't "Darwinian." Darwin's theories were about biological evolution, not cosmology.
Whether humans and other primates have common ancestry is completely irrelevant to the origin of the Universe- for all cosmology cares, we were brought here by winged cherub-like angels for the glory of Baal, or by arachnid-like aliens in purple space ships to control the Dodo Bird population- or we evolved from other species over a very long period of time, through natural selection.

...and I find it infinitely amusing to see non-scientists debating with actual scientists about the value of a "theory."
Basic rule: any time someone says "it's only a theory," you're dealing with a crackpot.

Ignore them.
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 137
Creationism in schools
Posted: 4/26/2009 4:11:05 PM
Joshua...

The reason evolution is taught is because it is a SUPPORTED theory - that means there is testable evidence that leads us to the conclusion that it is valid.

The only 'evidence' the supporters of Creation bring forward are supposition, denial, and the arrogant notion that if THEY don't understand it, then something greater than them must have MADE it.

Nothing they say is testable, and thus has no place in a scientific setting.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 138
Creationism in schools
Posted: 4/26/2009 5:10:33 PM
Actually, if I were to support the teaching of creationism, it would be in the social context of how science has and continues to have to deal with religious influences on society, the creation vs. ID debate and how the science works. I think, if you teach students how the arguments for creationism fly in the face of the actual science, they might gain an even better appreciation for the science.

Additionally, I think it's important to point out that describing evolution in terms of "Darwinism" is a little like describing gravity in terms of "Newtonism." They are effective starting places, but the science has, well, evolved.

Speaking cosmologically, the evidence of the Big Bang is strong enough that it serves well as a guiding principle. Is there more to be learned? You bet. However, what started as a perjorative phrase accurately describes the formation of the universe. But please, feel free to come up with an alternative theory that incorporates cosmological expansion as evidenced by galactic redshift, as well as the cosmic microwave background.

Joshua also brought up the odds. That's a typical creationist argument. Sure, the odds for all of evolution leading to one single cell of a particular DNA configuration is in the trillions to one....unless you take into account the sheer number of alternatives from the first pre-biotic chemistry of the planet to the first semi-biological forms to the first single cells, then the odds pretty much become 1:1.
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 139
Creationism in schools
Posted: 4/26/2009 5:21:39 PM
Good point, Stargazer... but that kind of teaching, IMO, is more appropriate for a History class, or Social Studies. It can be touched on in Science classes - but the details belong elsewhere.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 141
Creationism in schools
Posted: 4/28/2009 10:40:40 AM

Evolution is now the defacto state answer why we are here in lieu of intelligent design who may 'offend' some.
Evolution explains change. Not origins. That is Abiogenesis. Before you make an argument please research it.


And the fact is, evolution is being taught as 'fact' and not a 'theory'.

Wrong. Evolution is a fact. Evolution via natural selection is a theory and it is the model for which we gauge our understanding.



But let's take your argument that 'creationism' is religion.

Is it?

Who made that rule?

When it said some supernatural power created us.


I just demonstrated that the odds of just one cell forming by 'accident' is astronomical.
Do you admit that there is a slight chance it could happen? Need I remind you one of the laws of physics? Whatever can happen, will happen. If it has a .00001% chance of happening, given enough time, it will come to fruition. This is not a once in a life time resolute.


Logic would dictate there is another part of this equation missing.

Then you aren't using what we know as "logic."


They will beat 'evolution' to death trying to 'prove' a theory when archological evidence more and more points that the theory has serious flaws.

What flaws? They do not exist. We can date dinosaurs to be 65 million years old. We can date neandrithals to pre-date early homo-sapiens. We can date slight changes over the course of years upon years.


So many philosophical questions, so little time.

Philosophy simply opened up the state of mind of questioning ones belief system and trying to make sense of the world. If put against one another, science or philosophy, science would win every single time because they require PROOF for their belief.. Not just what one feels is the best answer.
 PirateJohn09
Joined: 1/7/2009
Msg: 142
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Creationism in schools
Posted: 5/5/2009 8:03:45 PM

Should schools respect the supposed "controversial view" of creationism vs evolution in science class?

Absolutely not. Science is not a democracy -- never has been. There are only theories that pass rigorous scrutiny and hypotheses that do not. Creationism simply does not pass scientific scrutiny.

People are free to believe creationism if they like, but science class is for teaching science, not religion. The US is already far enough behind the rest of the developed world in science, so let's not set ourselves further back by diluting our science education with religious dogma.
 PirateJohn09
Joined: 1/7/2009
Msg: 143
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Creationism in schools
Posted: 5/5/2009 8:06:41 PM

And the fact is, evolution is being taught as 'fact' and not a 'theory'.

That's because evolution is both fact and theory. That's how science works.

Take gravity for example. There is a fact of gravity -- I am sitting on my couch and not floating around in my living room. There is also a theory of gravity, which is a series of equations and experiments that attempt to explain how gravity works.

Similarly, there is a fact of evolution -- we see species evolve all the time both in the lab and in nature (know why you need a flu shot every year?). There is also a theory of evolution, which is a series of explanations of why the fact of evolution exists.
 WanderingRain
Joined: 3/9/2008
Msg: 144
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Creationism in schools
Posted: 5/5/2009 8:33:43 PM
Creationists have had to give ground plenty of times in the past.

Now, they have accepted the gradual evolution of a species -- the many types of dogs or cows that humans have bred, for example. Certainly, they have accepted the irrefutable fact that Adam never even saw a Chihuahua in the garden of Eden.

No doubt, given time, even they will retreat from this. It's just that the Bible writers have already established that God made man in his image. And to them, the very thought of man coming from an ape-like ancestor is an appalling idea.

But I have personally come to accept that God is huge -- larger than any of us even imagine. God has an image that transcends even the bearded old man we see in the paintings. I truly believe God does not care about his "image". It's the men who represent God that have problems with this.
I believe God can turn himself into a small bird and not think he's demeaning himself in the process. After all, whether God is in the form of a chimp or a ladybug, if God is God, he can still, even in chimp form, conduct the business of heaven as God does.
It's only men that have this image problem because humans think in terms of hierarchies -- that I am better than "those others".

So in the end, it's only human pride that prevents us from acknowledging that we came from lower life forms. We are better than "those filthy animals", is the prevailing thought of this kind of close minded thinking.

If God intended for man to come about through evolution, then we should just accept it. Not my will but God's will be done, right?
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 145
Creationism in schools
Posted: 8/27/2012 9:15:51 AM
Bill Nye: “Creationism is not Appropriate for Children”
Robert T. Gonzalez

If the denial of evolution is holding society back, what can be done about it?

According to Bill Nye, the answer lies in cutting our losses, favoring science education in our youth over stagnant arguments with benighted adults.

Here, Nye makes the astute observation that those who opt to deny evolution elect to live in a world that's much more complicated than reality, a world that's "completely inconsistent with everything we observe in the universe." And you know what?

That's fine — provided they don't subject their children to that way of thinking. Because the truth of the matter is: we need them.

It's an interesting modus operandi, but perhaps one worthy of consideration.


Link to video: http://io9.com/5937947/bill-nye-creationism-is-not-appropriate-for-children
 2findU
Joined: 11/19/2005
Msg: 146
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Creationism in schools
Posted: 8/27/2012 4:47:29 PM

Should schools respect the supposed "controversial view" of creationism vs evolution in science class? Should they be on equal ground as far as theories go? Should creationism be banned in a school setting? Do you think that people who don't believe in evolution should be taught creationism instead? Why or why not?


Creationism does NOT belong in schools. It is nothing more than biblical mythology. If they want to teach about it in some elective class that teaches about religions of the world. That may be acceptable. But it is not the truth. Otherwise keep it in the Sunday schools.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 147
Creationism in schools
Posted: 8/27/2012 4:53:44 PM

...Atheist are supposed to be free thinkers yet they quote and copy and paste more than anyone.

Do you see the contradiction in what you wrote?

A free-thinker is someone who is open to others ideas and is willing to read from multiple sources and not just take the word of one.

Though that said if you are calling you an atheist, you can add that to the list of things you are wrong about.




...They always seem to need the saying or teaching of someone else to reassure them ..I think secretly they want to be led or need to be led or have to be led.

The irony, it burns.
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