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Show ALL Forums  > California  > The latest stimulus 'deal' -- a deal or a steal?      Home login  
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 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 174
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Back to the StimulusPage 11 of 17    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17)

Why do you think the ACLU and other liberals are so dead-set against confinement w/out habeas and military tribunals?


I'm not sure of their motives. No one favors those things for U.S. citizens, except under circumstances like those in which Lincoln applied them. But I don't see any reason not to apply them to unlawful enemy combatants. And there are very good reasons not to. I won't get into the details here, but anyone in a regular Article III court, inside the U.S., would have rights that would guarantee his release. So why even bother? We might just as well save the effort, and let all these people go free right now.

How can any American want that result, when nothing in the Constitution, or in the laws of war, or in our traditions demands it? Maybe they aren't aware of what these men have done, but that's not much of an excuse. A lot of it's been widely published. Or, they feel more empathy with brutal jihadists who are committed to killing Americans than they do with their fellow Americans.

The legal organizations (including most of the highest officers in the DOJ) who call for these things know very well that what they're really calling for is to let all these people go scot free. We know that the ones already released have since killed at least seventy people, some of them Americans. When people do things that are indistinguishable from what traitors would do, they shouldn't be surprised if someone wonders about their loyalty.

Everyone seems to be wailing about Scotland's release of the Lockerbie bomber. But this President has released several Islamists responsible for even worse acts of terrorism against the U.S., and it never even made the news. These included Laith Qazali, set free in May, who led an Iranian-planned operation that resulted in the capture and murder of four U.S. soldiers in Iraq in 2007. These men were shot to death while handcuffed together--a war crime.

At least 400 American servicemen have been killed in Iraq by powerful antitank mines made in Iran, planted by terrorist cells whose leaders Iranian agents trained inside Iran. The terrorists released also included the leader of one of the three covert operations "batallions" Iran's Revolutionary Guard established in Iraq. This man was directly responsible for planning the operations that killed a good part of these 400 Americans. He was released July 9, along with several other senior Iranian agents who had become known as the "Irbil Five," after the Iraqi city where the U.S. captured them.

This man had been captured long after they had, in another part of Iraq, and he was not closely associated with them. But on July 9, the administration portrayed him as one of the "Irbil Five," apparently to avoid possible public outrage over his release. It's clear the Obama administration has released all these terrorists in exchange for American and British hostages held by Iran. Could that be why candidate Obama was so eager to talk with the leadership in Tehran, and why President Obama was so reluctant to speak out against it during the rioting there in June?

Maybe Mr. Obama'd like to just quietly give the mullahs a couple of our nuclear weapons, while he's at it, to save them the trouble of making their own. After all, they seem to be such good pals.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/07/us_releases_iranian.php
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 175
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History
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 12:00:55 PM
You probably know that treason's one of only two crimes defined in the Constitution. It's kind of interesting to read the history of treason cases in this country--there used to be a lot of them in the 1800's. And as often as not, the people convicted were pardoned or released early. The idea was more to put the mark of Cain on someone for life. Now, of course, a conviction for treason would be more likely to make someone a celebrity who'd make a fortune from public appearances and book sales.

It's always been somewhat of a political crime. Do you really think Ramsey Clark, that friend of everything anti-American, was about to have his DOJ build a case against Jane Fonda? And yet after WWII, several Americans who made radio broadcasts for the enemy were convicted of treason and served long prison terms. Two relatives of one of the Nazi saboteurs who landed by U-boat in Florida in 1942 were also convicted of treason for helping him, and imprisoned for it. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were convicted of violating the Espionage Act, rather than treason. I suspect the government couldn't come up with the two witnesses to the treasonous act that you need to have testify to it.
 Petrified_Wood
Joined: 7/29/2009
Msg: 176
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Posted: 8/24/2009 12:18:57 PM
PW you will have to explain that in allot more detail.
Any and all revenues should be paid to the people not the government.


The people are the government. The government represents the people. WTF? Is it THAT hard to understand? The government represents our interests. We don't need to receive additional "revenue" from products that everyone else sells. The government can keep all of that. We get to work to make our own revenue. We keep it ALL. We don't pay taxes. The government gets what they require from the sale of products. We don't pay the government to operate.

It REALLY can work that way. Ya just have to stop being stupid about OUR role in this.


He is one of the minority here that actually looks much better in person...


Actually - SHE is.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 177
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 1:16:39 PM

... Learn to live on an income that is less than half of what you have been living on in the past. Because within less then a decade your income will be far less and/or it will buy far less goods and services. ... Try to network with mature astute citizens who understand these issue.


Yep. We're going to have to rebuild our economy one way or another. So since that's likely to be the case, we might as well rebuild it along more sustainable lines.

If all these people are smart, they'll unwind things slowly with strategically placed bailouts, strategically financed R&D and start-ups, and lots of public input. We'll see how smart they are.
 Petrified_Wood
Joined: 7/29/2009
Msg: 178
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 2:16:58 PM
Don't worry about my tone. The idea is what's important.


I could see this working as the fed holding a patent, but actually producing a product. You have allot more faith in the government than I do.


The government doesn't produce products in my plan.


What about the people that actually develop this stuff what is there incentive to participate in it. If their ideas are that good why not just keep the product in the free market and sell it yourself..


The government (we) is subsidizing the development of their products. If I have a great idea, I may be pushing the limits of my capability simply THINKING about that idea. We all know, everyone with a great idea doesn't have the know-how to make it into something worth money. So the guy with the great idea gets a percentage of the sale. We subsidize the development (by making it easy) - that's how we earned our cut. Somebody else may be involved in another aspect - marketing perhaps. They get a cut. Products that are part of this system will carry some type of "UNION" label. Americans will want to give preference to these products of course since we are all benefiting from these.

Now you may have a great idea, and the resources to develop your product on your own. You can do this if you like. Your development costs will drive your price up but depending on what you intend, you could be very competitive with the "UNION" products. You are free to do so. The thing is - we're going to give a huge advantage to those who want it by speeding up their development time while eliminating their development costs.

Imagine a drug company that comes out with a new drug. Typically, their development costs are huge. Now, by going through the "UNION" system (I just pulled that name out of my butt for this posting, BTW) - they can keep their costs to a minimum - compete VERY well with drug companies who have incurred huge development costs, and still make a reasonable (almost the same) profit - while being more appealing to the public.

And getting a slice of the drug-company pie is something we the people should be interested in. Starting to make sense?
 Petrified_Wood
Joined: 7/29/2009
Msg: 179
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 5:20:23 PM
You're understanding what I've written so far - but you're jumping to conclusions about who will be running things. What I am proposing sets up a special zone that is free of political restraints and controls.

My stimulus proposal starts with a building project that I call SciTown. It's a science community worth building (hey better than bailing out another failed institution).

When completed, SciTown will be the worlds most advanced scientific, technological and industrial campus coupled with laboratories, research centers, prototyping and testing facilities. It will be structured in a way that invites scientists, thinkers, inventors and product developers to collaborate in new ways that have been impossible before. It also allows for the private development of infrastructure that supports the development of new ideas arising from these collaborations.

There are many research centers throughout the world with many good scientists working hard to create new treatments for many of man's illnesses and diseases. Unfortunately in most countries, political and special interests limit the availability and unnecessarily delay the introduction and use of many groundbreaking treatments and technologies. The first challenge is to cut through the red tape and disencumber the participants so that new technologies can develop in a natural and productive way.

In the scientific community, as well as in the university, the various sciences are divided into separate departments so that scientific research and education is segmented and specialized limiting the researcher's/student's ability to understand and use the various science areas together. In nature, the sciences are not segregated. For example; principles of physics are actually the controlling factors in biochemistry and can be used to measure and manipulate chemistry itself. It is rare however for a student to be adequately educated in both physics and chemistry. The second challenge is to provide an environment in which scientific concepts and ideas overcome the boundaries of the individual scientific disciplines.

There are also inherent problems in the university research grant system. The performance of research for research's sake represents a significant waste of human and financial resources. Throughout the world's universities many researchers survive on research grants. As long as they continue doing research they apply and receive grant money. It matters not that their research never results in practical application for the good of mankind. In many cases, if practical application were achieved as a result of research, the researcher's grants would end, disrupting their livelihood. The third challenge is to motivate researchers to achieve results by freeing them of financial burdens and grant programs that are counter-productive and to provide financial incentives that encourage success.

Duplicated effort is wasted effort. Knowledge that isn't shared is wasted knowledge. Throughout the world, scientists and researchers are unknowingly duplicating each other's experiments, following each other's footsteps often to the same dead-ends. It is clear that if scientists could know the dead-ends in advance, much effort could be saved. Often, scientific discoveries are a race between competitors. The recent decoding of the human genome is one example of this. Wouldn't this project have taken half as long if the competing scientific teams pooled their efforts? Recently, the same scientists who were competing to decipher the human genome challenged all scientists to participate in a cooperative effort to unravel the mysteries surrounding this important discovery. This is, however, unlikely to happen. Part of the problem is lack of communication and cooperation between research scientists - a natural byproduct of the grant system and the competitive nature of commercial science. Perhaps among scientists, a desire for personal recognition plays into this too. The fourth challenge is to achieve an environment where scientific research and ideas can be shared freely, advanced and built upon and where good scientific discussion and debate can lead to discoveries and products for the next millennium.

After many discussions it is very apparent that many researchers would jump at the chance to work in an environment free of political and financial agendas and self-interests. The creation of SciTown will create an environment where lifesaving research in its pure form and for the good of mankind can mature into real life treatments for many of the catastrophic illness which continue to plague mankind. Through humanitarian grants and corporate support (without corporate interference), scientists will be able to maintain an excellent standard of living.

Besides the direct medical and health benefits to mankind, many new technologies will be developed among which are technologies for water purification and the safe and increased production of food. These technologies can be brought into practical use alleviating starvation around the world. Many beneficial engineering technologies will develop here as well, among them bio-robotics and nanorobotics, prosthetics, fuel sciences and bio-organisms that aid in oil spill control, advanced medical diagnostic equipment, advanced bio-photographic and imaging technologies, therapeutic technologies and advanced sports and safety equipment. SciTown will also be the world leader in the development and manufacture of high-tech medical and surgical equipment.

As scientific breakthroughs evolve into new consumer products, a substantial manufacturing base will develop in SciTown. This manufacturing base will not only be able to support itself, but it will continually infuse capitol into the research and development of new products. It will be a self-perpetuating system that promotes product development and eliminates the need for taxation.
 Petrified_Wood
Joined: 7/29/2009
Msg: 180
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 6:46:17 PM
Have you SEEN Amgen? I helped design Amgen's facilities. Building after building - (30+) hundreds of people supporting what? Two products. THAT's about it. Two products (at least when I was there). They make enough money off of those two drugs to support hundreds of workers. They HAVE to. And what do those workers do? They are the LEAST productive of any workers I've ever seen. They never worked - they spent their whole time attending meetings about the corporate structure. It was a TOTAL WASTE.

So yeah - NO... nothing like the corporate structure you're talking about. I'm talking streamlined efficiency - not the kind you find in corporations. If you think my model resembles the Soviet Union, you need to have a doctor look at that knee-jerk.
 Petrified_Wood
Joined: 7/29/2009
Msg: 181
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 7:37:48 PM

I attend many meetings about the corporate structure, it's hard work, it's important to do correctly, necessary but not sufficient.


Entire countries could live on the stale donuts from Amgen's meetings.


I'm not certain you understand the subtlety of the system and process you despise.


I don't despise any systems. My job is to improve systems. To do this, I must understand the subtleties of the systems I improve - otherwise I wouldn't be any good at what I do. I'm not certain you understand how ridiculous you sound when you question my understanding of things that are way over your head.


Accordingly, lacking this profound understanding, I suspect you'll find uncommon resistance in selling alternative processes.


IOW, you've got nothing here to disagree with - so you want to pretend I've wasted my time and haven't thought this out. Too bad it went over your head. The plan is not only sound - I've already sold it to a sovereign government that wanted to jump-start THEIR economy. Better call them and tell them to ask for their money back.
 Petrified_Wood
Joined: 7/29/2009
Msg: 182
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 11:52:02 PM

You may be an expert in your area, but I happen to be one in mine and would at least have the common decency to explain my thoughts on an idea to some one so they understand it, that's how you get buy in. But, then arrogance is a trait of the academic elite.


I'm not here to make friends, but I'll take your point. I just get a little annoyed at people trying to pigeonhole my idea as something they've already tried.


I'd need an existence proof, just one. One? Show me one country that has improved their lot with this approach.


This doesn't happen over night. I only sold the plan in 2000. Construction on the city didn't begin until 2002 and it's still being built but many companies (including Amgen) have bought into the business park system already and are setting up shop there. Dubai's economy is tanking faster than this can save it, but they are indeed trying what I have laid out.

http://www.dubiotech.ae/index.php?
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 183
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Posted: 8/25/2009 12:21:41 AM
GW and FZ, you might want to look into the Mondragon co-ops in Spain. They might afford you an existence proof and/or a working model of an alternative to the free-for-all market system.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 184
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/25/2009 12:42:40 AM
They'll be more than happy to tell you all about it. If you ever decide you want to try something like that, count me in.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 185
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/25/2009 8:35:26 PM

I believe in employee owned companies, not union owned or government owned.


Then you'd like Mondragon. That's how they do it.

You might also like some books by Kim Stanley Robinson. The Mars series has been around a while, but it is still relevant and some of the best-researched sci-fi ever!
 Petrified_Wood
Joined: 7/29/2009
Msg: 186
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/26/2009 6:27:55 AM
Companies offering product design services are springing up to develop new products. There are lots of ideas out there for products. Some are good ones. Not everyone who has a good idea has business savvy, unfortunately, and some will lose a huge percentage of their profit potential to patent attorneys, venture capitalists and general bleeding from bad business.

http://www.absolutelynew.com/intro/g2/?gclid=CLamoJO0wZwCFRYiagodk1b0oA
http://www.buildmyproduct.com/About%20History.htm
http://www.mantaro.com/?gclid=CN7u2ba1wZwCFRxNagodKkC_ng
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 187
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/26/2009 11:47:00 AM
Or maybe, without any particular intention to do so, the schools that impart the technical and managerial skills needed to operate both stock companies and employee-owned co-ops also instill an orientation that favors stock companies.

Governance is difficult enough in a stock company, and unless a management is competent to deal with employee owners, a co-op can be very difficult to manage. I only know of one academic discipline that deals with the management of such an enterprise: membership club management (within hospitality management).

Managers with that skill set are rare. Not being able to find a good one could lead an employee-owned co-op to pack it in and allow themselves to be bought out.

The people who make big donations to business schools typically aren't employee owners or co-op managers. But who knows, maybe there is a program out there that would like to specialize in this particular niche.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 188
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Posted: 8/26/2009 6:23:47 PM
What you call obvious I call self-fulfilling. Presume the worst and that's what you get. Build a system around that presumption and inculcate everyone in it, and you will find it is difficult to break people out of. Co-ops are tougher to run than stock companies in a stock-company oriented system, but the nature of cooperation plays out in both cases. What makes co-ops tougher is that people don't know which rules still hold when they are part-owners and which ones don't. When they're wage serfs, they all know the deal.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 189
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/26/2009 11:30:54 PM
Well, back in the day I did a co-op--a self-managed cafe at a college campus. It served pizza & sandwiches, beer & wine, espresso & desserts. The lessons I learned were these: 1) the prevailing competitive culture played out within the co-op despite everyone's good intentions--so much so that in order for the co-op to survive, I had to resign. Part of that was on me, part of that was because of the conflicts surrounding the role of founder vs. member. I was too young to understand how to finesse it. But my act of leaving and the crisis it precipitated forced the members to step up, and they did. It had a 10-year run, averaged $30K in monthly sales in a 900 sq. ft. store, and the rent it paid for the concession funded many student life activities that otherwise would not have happened. 2) People in a co-op have to have a strong business plan and stick to it. Every time they followed the plan, they made money and had fun. Every time they deviated from the plan they lost money and had struggles.

It took me a long time to get over the heartbreak of losing that dream, but the members of my new co-operative household will be moving in soon. I can hardly wait!

BTW, not having a formal hierarchy doesn't mean there isn't room for leadership. It means that there is more room for leadership to emerge. I wouldn't have had to quit if I had understood that the leadership was emerging and testing itself against me in my role as founder. All I needed to do was step back and support them, but my own comeptitive upbringing got in my way.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 190
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/26/2009 11:38:04 PM

Ace my point was entirely values neutral.


Pardon me, but this is simply bullshit. You haven't uttered a single thing that was values-neutral since the day you showed up in these forums. If you _think_ that your story about Lincoln Electric was values neutral, you really have been sipping the kool-aid. You are a partisan, and an ideaogue, but I've come to like you anyway. But please, please, please don't think you can pose as objective. You're not. You're on the lookout for any shred of evidence that will appear to corroborate the position you hold already. That's what you do. It's obvious to everyone else. You might as well admit it to yourself. If you were even slightly open-minded, you wouldn't have to end every posting with a slam against someone. Values-neutral. That's rich!!!!
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 191
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/27/2009 7:02:54 AM
That's the quality of your "lessons learned?" And here I was starting to like you.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 192
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Posted: 8/27/2009 10:08:14 PM

Sorry Ace I got a little devil inside me that takes control whenever I'm confronted with profoundly wrong thinking.


Do you mean "profoundly wrong," or "challenges the values that you claim to be neutral about?"

Perhaps we're both plagued by that same little devil! LOL!!!
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 193
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/27/2009 10:11:22 PM

From what we know, it seems like a big political pay back program.


Probably so. Still, I'd like to see just who and how well connected the recipients are. My guess is it's the same crew that made out under the Republican administration for the most part. Care to take that wager?

You can bet that Ayers and Wright aren't getting any of it. And I'll bet that ACORN is way down on the list, if they're even on it at all. So who is?
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 194
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/27/2009 11:02:45 PM
No problem, fz. You generally back your stuff up. You & Match are both pretty tough to argue against.

I haven't been following ACORN all that much. Do they rely on Americorps volunteers?

Personally, I see the volunteer bill as a part of the stimulus that will actually stimulate the economy in a positive way. Kind-of like the old NRA of the '30s.

JD, I'm not seeing anything mandatory about the volunteer program as of yet. What am I missing?
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 195
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History
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Posted: 8/27/2009 11:52:10 PM

Kind-of like the old NRA of the '30s.


I wonder if the statists of today would wince a little at the fascist overtones of the National Recovery Agency. Just to cite a couple, its symbol was a stern-looking Blue Eagle, clutching a bunch of gears in one talon (cooperation, power, industry!) and a cluster of lightning bolts (energy, creativity, vitality!) in the other. (Mussolini's symbol was a sheaf (or "fasci") of wheat.) And the Nazis, of course, also had the German eagle on banners, etc.

FDR named a man with connections in Hollywood to promote the NRA, and they made a musical. It had quite a few stars in it, and one number featured a line of Rockettes with little blue eagles stamped on their thighs. There's an overhead shot where the dancers all go through their moves, and like a card trick at a football game, suddenly form the image of a giant blue eagle. Say, that was a swell show!

They even had a 5th Avenue parade, where all the workers in New York got the day off and marched in different colored uniforms, each trade with its own color, marching in formation. Giant blue eagle banners were put up everywhere, and carried by the marchers. That's an awful lot like the parades the Nazis put on, although I'm not sure many people realized it. A few journalists did though, comparing Roosevelt to the two European dictators. And toward the end, they had grandstands put up so Eleanor Roosevelt could review all 100,000 of them, or whatever it was, and wave.

Of course, Mrs. Roosevelt had never said that the first time she'd ever felt proud of America in her adult life was when Franklin won his party's nomination. She loved this country. And even though she grew up with a silver spoon in her mouth, she was no snob.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 196
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Posted: 8/28/2009 7:20:15 AM
Yow! Looks like you caught me out, there JD. I thought the NRA was a public works program. I had no idea of its full complexion. I think that the Supremes of the day did right to pare it back.
 MermaidSari
Joined: 2/4/2007
Msg: 197
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History
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Posted: 11/21/2009 7:31:34 PM
The Chicago way (lol...just got a chuckle out of this Jack). :-p
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 198
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Posted: 11/21/2009 10:41:56 PM
Oh the Chicago way is right though and sorry to say, it's not really funny, but glad you got a laugh MS :-D
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