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Show ALL Forums  > California  > The latest stimulus 'deal' -- a deal or a steal?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 276
Back to the StimulusPage 12 of 17    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17)
You stimulus true believers should get on the leading edge of your commune and go study some research out of U of cal Berkely that seems to indicate cars4Clunkers is an environmental misfire.

Or you can just go study my words a week or so ago and reprogram all your "food comes from grocery stores" thinking.

It's a terrible burden being corrct and right all the time lol.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 277
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 9:08:32 AM
Ace I base my model burg on how the setup is in Alaska and the oil industry. You want to build in the burg then each person in the burg gets a share of the profit, not the government, each person, man woman and child.

All of the natural resources in this country belong to the people and the people should reap the rewards of any contract that, not the government.

I am not saying you wouldn't have federal government bu their only mission would be to see that the right of people are not violated.

The concept is way to large to try to explain in the forums.
 Petrified_Wood
Joined: 7/29/2009
Msg: 278
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 9:30:30 AM

All of the natural resources in this country belong to the people and the people should reap the rewards of any contract that, not the government.


Under my stimulus plan - WE are the government.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 279
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 9:38:44 AM
PW says Under my stimulus plan - WE are the government.

PW your picture alone makes me want to buy gold and bury it in the backyard. You should swing by the library, buy a book by a guy named Marx, stop by Blockbuster video and rent "Reds". The jury is in, and we're letting OJ out and giving his cell to you.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 280
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 9:44:08 AM
PW you will have to explain that in allot more detail.
Any and all revenues should be paid to the people not the government.
 Janet4ever
Joined: 4/14/2008
Msg: 281
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 10:10:45 AM

PW your picture alone makes me want to buy gold and bury it in the backyard.

He is one of the minority here that actually looks much better in person...
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 282
view profile
History
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 10:45:16 AM

Why do you think the ACLU and other liberals are so dead-set against confinement w/out habeas and military tribunals?


I'm not sure of their motives. No one favors those things for U.S. citizens, except under circumstances like those in which Lincoln applied them. But I don't see any reason not to apply them to unlawful enemy combatants. And there are very good reasons not to. I won't get into the details here, but anyone in a regular Article III court, inside the U.S., would have rights that would guarantee his release. So why even bother? We might just as well save the effort, and let all these people go free right now.

How can any American want that result, when nothing in the Constitution, or in the laws of war, or in our traditions demands it? Maybe they aren't aware of what these men have done, but that's not much of an excuse. A lot of it's been widely published. Or, they feel more empathy with brutal jihadists who are committed to killing Americans than they do with their fellow Americans.

The legal organizations (including most of the highest officers in the DOJ) who call for these things know very well that what they're really calling for is to let all these people go scot free. We know that the ones already released have since killed at least seventy people, some of them Americans. When people do things that are indistinguishable from what traitors would do, they shouldn't be surprised if someone wonders about their loyalty.

Everyone seems to be wailing about Scotland's release of the Lockerbie bomber. But this President has released several Islamists responsible for even worse acts of terrorism against the U.S., and it never even made the news. These included Laith Qazali, set free in May, who led an Iranian-planned operation that resulted in the capture and murder of four U.S. soldiers in Iraq in 2007. These men were shot to death while handcuffed together--a war crime.

At least 400 American servicemen have been killed in Iraq by powerful antitank mines made in Iran, planted by terrorist cells whose leaders Iranian agents trained inside Iran. The terrorists released also included the leader of one of the three covert operations "batallions" Iran's Revolutionary Guard established in Iraq. This man was directly responsible for planning the operations that killed a good part of these 400 Americans. He was released July 9, along with several other senior Iranian agents who had become known as the "Irbil Five," after the Iraqi city where the U.S. captured them.

This man had been captured long after they had, in another part of Iraq, and he was not closely associated with them. But on July 9, the administration portrayed him as one of the "Irbil Five," apparently to avoid possible public outrage over his release. It's clear the Obama administration has released all these terrorists in exchange for American and British hostages held by Iran. Could that be why candidate Obama was so eager to talk with the leadership in Tehran, and why President Obama was so reluctant to speak out against it during the rioting there in June?

Maybe Mr. Obama'd like to just quietly give the mullahs a couple of our nuclear weapons, while he's at it, to save them the trouble of making their own. After all, they seem to be such good pals.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/07/us_releases_iranian.php
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 283
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 10:54:03 AM
14th Amendment

Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

So match does some of this qualify as aid and comfort to the enemy, Reid, Pelosi, Murtha statements, emboldening/ aiding the enemies.
If you have ever been to Gitmo Bush and Obama are both guilty of comforting the enemy.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 284
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 10:55:07 AM
Janet I'm joking PW is a handsome guy. I expected an insult back for which my answer would be the last person to see me sought end of life counseling:)
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 285
view profile
History
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 12:00:55 PM
You probably know that treason's one of only two crimes defined in the Constitution. It's kind of interesting to read the history of treason cases in this country--there used to be a lot of them in the 1800's. And as often as not, the people convicted were pardoned or released early. The idea was more to put the mark of Cain on someone for life. Now, of course, a conviction for treason would be more likely to make someone a celebrity who'd make a fortune from public appearances and book sales.

It's always been somewhat of a political crime. Do you really think Ramsey Clark, that friend of everything anti-American, was about to have his DOJ build a case against Jane Fonda? And yet after WWII, several Americans who made radio broadcasts for the enemy were convicted of treason and served long prison terms. Two relatives of one of the Nazi saboteurs who landed by U-boat in Florida in 1942 were also convicted of treason for helping him, and imprisoned for it. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were convicted of violating the Espionage Act, rather than treason. I suspect the government couldn't come up with the two witnesses to the treasonous act that you need to have testify to it.
 Petrified_Wood
Joined: 7/29/2009
Msg: 286
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 12:18:57 PM
PW you will have to explain that in allot more detail.
Any and all revenues should be paid to the people not the government.


The people are the government. The government represents the people. WTF? Is it THAT hard to understand? The government represents our interests. We don't need to receive additional "revenue" from products that everyone else sells. The government can keep all of that. We get to work to make our own revenue. We keep it ALL. We don't pay taxes. The government gets what they require from the sale of products. We don't pay the government to operate.

It REALLY can work that way. Ya just have to stop being stupid about OUR role in this.


He is one of the minority here that actually looks much better in person...


Actually - SHE is.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 287
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 12:50:32 PM
Wow well your tone does not a teacher make(as you posted in another thread)
So what if the government product don't sell.
I could see this working as the fed holding a patent, but actually producing a product. You have allot more faith in the government than I do. Just look at development of defense materials, at what point does the government scrap a potential product or do they just keep dumping money in it.
What about the people that actually develop this stuff what is there incentive to participate in it. If their ideas are that good why not just keep the product in the free market and sell it yourself..
No I understand the concept but like many feel good ideas they never take it out to its full conclusion, never ask the what if.
Especially under the current take over regime, the government products aren't selling but hey that guy just invented a new cell phone. Lets pull an eminent domain and take his company for the good of all. Or a thug/government boycott against that cell phone maker until they give up the product to the feds.
You would have to show me how this would run and a full set of unmanipulable checks and balances built into the system.
If you really think we are the government and the government is us, you have a very Utopian view of the last hundred years of history.
It is an unforgiving bureaucracy run by less than talented drones who create or produce nothing other than more bureaucracy and more drones, that do nothing but consume and hinder what the productive create.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 288
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 1:05:15 PM
The coming economic crash caused by world debt

By Don Koenig with 2009 update

2009 update- I actually wrote this article in 2000 and updated some debt figures and inserted a few comments along the way but it is now 2009 and what I said about what would be coming is now taking place as I speak. Since this articles is read by thousands each month I think I owe my readers a update on the crises. The original article follows below.

We are now at the point where we will either go into a full fledged depression or where government bailouts will cause hyperinflation. Which one happens is hard to say it may be out of our control and it makes little difference anyway. Either path will bring the worst economic depression in living standards in modern times.

There is no answer to the problem because many people and nations have been living beyond their means for many decades amassing debt. So now the chickens have come home to roust. Our credit line is now maxed out. As a nation we cannot keep living like we have twice the income that we really have. Trying to throw more money at the problem like our government is doing now will just make matter worse in the long run because this nation cannot afford to take on more debt.

Passing the costs of this downturn to the future is simply not going to work. First, there is no future generation that can pay this huge rapidly increasing debt. Second, nobody is going to be stupid enough to finance our debt at low interest rates. The more risk of default or currency devaluation the more we are going to be charged in interest to finance our debt. We may be able to pay $15 trillion dollars of interest at 3 percent with a little pain but at 6 percent it is a major problem. Taxes would have to be raised causing a further downturn. If interest rates go higher than that which is extremely likely, we would either have to default on our debt or just create money and then find ourselves in a situation like what is happening in Zimbabwe.

We soon will all have a lower standard of living because spending beyond our means is not sustainable forever. Worse than that we have amassed and are increasingly amassing huge debts that we can never pay off or even finance. That means the Fed will just create more and more dollars to pay our debts. Nobody has ever done that with causing hyperinflation. It is basic economics. You cannot put more and more dollars out there and expect prices to stay the same. Those holding the surplus dollars will soon bid up the prices of goods and services paid in dollars causing hyperinflation.

Trying to stop the inflation would bring further downturn and default on our debts. When that happens major nations would no longer take U.S. dollars and imports of products would stop. What do you think that would do to your standard of living when you go to Wal-Mart and the shelves are nearly empty and what they do have costs three times as much? Or you go to the gas station and gas is $50 a gallon, if you can even get it at all?

If the spending beyond our means for decades has not been enough many people in our nation have been gambling with your investments. They took your money and used it as security to leverage investments worth thirty times that amount. Now that some lost when bubbles burst they could not pay their debts. So they either had to default and go bankrupt or the government bailed them out and took on their debt hoping someday the paper they hold regains its value. That is going on now but since everyone in the nation was spending beyond their means driving up prices of things like real estate the paper they hold will never again be worth what it cost in inflation adjusted dollars. So the losses will one day be added to the national debt. For example, say that banks now taken over by the government invested by giving out loans on California real estate. The government is lucky if it gets back 50 cent on the dollar on these properties. The rest will be added to national debt.

If that is not enough everyone is now afraid to lend because the chances are good that they will never get paid back. That means that corporations cannot borrow to cover short term loses and expenses. So instead these corporations cut back on employees and benefits trying to keep their company afloat. Obviously when more and more people no longer have jobs and income they will start defaulting on their own debts causing a further downward spiral.

The government cannot even institute a policy to buy American or they risk a trade war with other nations in the global economy where other nations were also living beyond their means. The trade war probably is coming anyway because unemployed people of nations will demand that their government does something to protect their jobs and all they can do to keep jobs at home is to allow protectionism. That happened in the 1930's and it made a bad recession into a decade long world depression. That now seems to be our future and along with the deflation depression or hyperinflationary depression that is bound to come, it will allow the rise of populist demigods who will convince people that they have the answers. In other words we are now repeating the same mistakes of the 30's that led to the nationalist socialistic movements and the start of World War II. It will not be different this time except the stakes for the world will be much higher.

If I have a sure message to people who are listening. Learn to live on an income that is less than half of what you have been living on in the past. Because within less then a decade your income will be far less and/or it will buy far less goods and services. Also prepare for big government trying to manage and run every aspects of peoples lives. Certain people are going to think the only way to handle this is through forced government control and then rationing. Do not be surprised if there is civil breakdown and even secession movements when the people get fed up. It has already started in some nations. It is going to get much worse than most anyone imagines.

Try to network with mature astute citizens who understand these issue. It is going to be a tough time for everyone and those who stand alone will have little support. The dam has now broken. Much more spending beyond our means in not going to solve a problem that was caused by spending beyond our means. It will only make things worse in the future. The coming decade for the U.S. and the hard choices it makes will determine if it even survives as a nation.

Original article on the coming economic crash caused by world

Almost every nation of the world has such severe debt that just making the interest payments takes a large amount of their financial resources. Much of this world debt is owed to world bankers that then dictate their own economic policy to these countries. These policies do not favor the poor.

The largest economy in the world is the United States. The US government is currently 11 trillion dollars in debt and I project that to go to 15 trillion or more by early 2011. Paying the interest on that huge debt in future years will cost about as much as what is spent on national defense (using modern historical interest rates and the cost of defense under normal peace time conditions).

The United States is now by far the biggest debtor nation in the world. For many years we have been importing hundreds of billions more dollars in goods and services than we are exporting each year. In 2005 through 2008 the trade imbalance averaged well over 700 billion dollars per year! Trillions of US dollars are now in the hands of foreign investors who at any time could dump the dollar causing a devaluation of the currency.

Just a few years ago, the US government was forecasting surpluses of trillions of dollars based on the stupid assumption that there would not be a downturn in the economy for decades. This foolish assumption was of course proven wrong and deficit spending in 2009 and 2010 will be at least two trillion dollars a year if everything is counted. The only reason the United States is not yet feeling the pinch of spending beyond its means has been the record low interest rates. The low interest rates were brought about by Federal Reserve manipulation to stimulate the economy but interest rates now will rise. Soon all who need loans will be making higher payments and the US government will be paying much more to service the national debt.

Debt and unfunded liabilities promised through entitlement programs is now over 50 trillion dollars. This amount of money in non inflationary dollars is impossible to raise! Thus, the US is now technically bankrupt. In order to keep up the facade that the US is solvent for even another decade or two one or more of the following must happen.

1. Taxes must be raised.

2. Government spending will have to be drastically cut.

3. Deficit spending will dramatically increase.

If taxes are raised, it will kill the economy and the debt load will get worse and not better. Spending will not be drastically cut because these types of cuts would never get through the political system. Therefore, massive deficit spending will take place. The monetary system will be inflated so that this debt can be paid by using a dollar worth only a fraction of what it is today. This means a much weaker dollar in the future and much higher prices for all goods and services imported to the United States (in short it means we should expect hyper-Inflation).

The best long term scenario is that the economy will expand for decades and we will partly grow our way out of this debt crunch (like we temporarily did under Ronald Reagan). But, I do not see stability for that length of time as even a remote possibility in this world full of crises. I think it is only a matter of time before a downturn in the economy or an unforeseen world event brings about the collapse of this house of cards.

The catalyst for a crash can come in any number of ways. One likely scenario is that confidence in the US dollar will falter. When this happens interest rates will have to rise dramatically to try to lure foreign investors to re-service our debt. Higher interest rates will then shut down our economy and less tax money will be raised. The debt will still have to be paid at the higher interest rate so the government will print even more money and deficit spending will increase. The dollar will fall in value against other currencies bringing about an inflation spiral in the United States and even more dumping of US dollars for a more stable currency.

Banks and financial institutions holding today's unrealistic low interest loans on property will go under, causing a collapse of pension systems and/or a taxpayer bailout that will worsen the deficits even further. Many with adjustable rate mortgages will not be able to make the payments and they will default on their loans. The foreclosed houses will be dumped on the market bringing a collapse in all home values. All this in effect will cause an inflationary depression in the largest economy in the world.

The fall of the US economy will have a domino effect and bring about a worldwide depression that will further depress the US economy and bring a full fledged inflationary depression worse than the great depression of the 1930's. When this happens most companies will go bankrupt and will be nationalized.

When I first wrote about the coming economic crash caused by debt in the year 2000, I said the stock market was three times higher than it should be. Since then the market has fallen to nearly half of what it was. It is still over valued. If investors today had a proper perspective on interest rates, the falling dollar, record oil prices, record deficit spending, the housing crash, terrorism and the foreign conflicts the value of stocks would decline to less than half of what it is in the winter of 2009. Eventually it will!

Paper money is only worth what it can be traded for in real goods and services. The United States record deficit spending is putting cash into the economy but like all who spend beyond their means the bill will come due. Soon foreign investors will lose confidence and others that hate the US will deliberately cause more pain and the dollar will fall like a rock. The fall of the dollar has already begun. The US dollar only buys half of what it did in Europe only a few years ago. Only time will tell if the current fall of the dollar will briefly stop or continue descending into a worse crises. Meanwhile, if there is another downturn anytime soon caused by economics or terrorism, or further collapse of housing we will not be able to buy our way out of it again without hyper-inflation.
Inflationary depression worse than the great depression

Two thirds of the families in the US are now invested in the stock market compared to three percent in the great crash of 1929. When the economic crash comes, retirement accounts, mutual funds and most paper wealth will be wiped out. Most banks and financial institutions will fail, be bailed out, or be taken over by the government (causing further devaluation of the dollar). Most people making a living on the service sector of our economy will be unemployed. Prices on everything made in this country will either deflate or paper money will lose most of its value. The resultant depression will affect everyone and it will be the worst that this nation has ever known.

When the US economy goes down it will take the world economy with it. This economic collapse will cause great civil unrest all over the world, cities will be filled with riots and later with troops. Democracy will be dead and people will look to demigods to solve their problems. When the economy of the West crashes Russia may get ideas to invade the Middle East to seize its riches.

This day will not take some of the elite of the world by surprise. They know that this day is coming (Satan pulls their strings). At the appropriate time, the solution to the crises will be to abolish almost all debt and all savings and to start over with a new world economic system that will set the stage for the end time economic system described in the book of Revelation.

There is little question that the world debt crash is coming. It does not even have to start in the United States (it could begin in Japan, China, Europe or elsewhere). The only question is the timing of this crash. The world debt situation is so bad now, that a deliberate or accidental crash could occur at any time. The world bankers and world leaders have been putting off the inevitable by huge bailouts and extensions of debts but with these bailouts there is loss of sovereignty to world government and world bankers. They will continue in this mode until the house of cards collapses of its own weight, someone pulls a card, or some large scale economic disruption blows this house of cards over.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 289
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 1:16:39 PM

... Learn to live on an income that is less than half of what you have been living on in the past. Because within less then a decade your income will be far less and/or it will buy far less goods and services. ... Try to network with mature astute citizens who understand these issue.


Yep. We're going to have to rebuild our economy one way or another. So since that's likely to be the case, we might as well rebuild it along more sustainable lines.

If all these people are smart, they'll unwind things slowly with strategically placed bailouts, strategically financed R&D and start-ups, and lots of public input. We'll see how smart they are.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 290
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 1:40:22 PM
Now ACE, focus, focus like a laser beam and imagine me needing the government, or anyone, in planning and executing survival/coping strategies. The only people who need that assistance are the clueless who will continue to be clueless with a parasitical dream of connecting with the competent.

The next 10 years will be more like the past 10,000, a recognition we all live on the Serengheti Plains where the predators are likely to come in human form but twice as dangerous.

Please form a commune, share with them your plan to low impact living, invite Obumbler if you can get through to him at Martha's Vineyard, notice how seriously he's taking your concerns lol.
 Petrified_Wood
Joined: 7/29/2009
Msg: 291
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 2:16:58 PM
Don't worry about my tone. The idea is what's important.


I could see this working as the fed holding a patent, but actually producing a product. You have allot more faith in the government than I do.


The government doesn't produce products in my plan.


What about the people that actually develop this stuff what is there incentive to participate in it. If their ideas are that good why not just keep the product in the free market and sell it yourself..


The government (we) is subsidizing the development of their products. If I have a great idea, I may be pushing the limits of my capability simply THINKING about that idea. We all know, everyone with a great idea doesn't have the know-how to make it into something worth money. So the guy with the great idea gets a percentage of the sale. We subsidize the development (by making it easy) - that's how we earned our cut. Somebody else may be involved in another aspect - marketing perhaps. They get a cut. Products that are part of this system will carry some type of "UNION" label. Americans will want to give preference to these products of course since we are all benefiting from these.

Now you may have a great idea, and the resources to develop your product on your own. You can do this if you like. Your development costs will drive your price up but depending on what you intend, you could be very competitive with the "UNION" products. You are free to do so. The thing is - we're going to give a huge advantage to those who want it by speeding up their development time while eliminating their development costs.

Imagine a drug company that comes out with a new drug. Typically, their development costs are huge. Now, by going through the "UNION" system (I just pulled that name out of my butt for this posting, BTW) - they can keep their costs to a minimum - compete VERY well with drug companies who have incurred huge development costs, and still make a reasonable (almost the same) profit - while being more appealing to the public.

And getting a slice of the drug-company pie is something we the people should be interested in. Starting to make sense?
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 292
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 2:27:35 PM
PW, so break this down, the government is like a bank. If I get a great idea, I need to write a proposal to the government for funding? Then some really experienced government bureacrat intimate with the competitive marketplace, substitutions, mfg. issues, technology trends, and distribution placement of goods and services will vet my idea?

Am i getting close? So we have millions of business's that live in tiny unknown niches who spend every minute of everyday pondering how to make their product better, cheaper, more usable...you're gonna have a bureacracy replace that.

Did I get an "A" for understanding?, or did I miss the special sauce which makes this not sound like a sophomore showing off for freshmen?
 Petrified_Wood
Joined: 7/29/2009
Msg: 293
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 5:20:23 PM
You're understanding what I've written so far - but you're jumping to conclusions about who will be running things. What I am proposing sets up a special zone that is free of political restraints and controls.

My stimulus proposal starts with a building project that I call SciTown. It's a science community worth building (hey better than bailing out another failed institution).

When completed, SciTown will be the worlds most advanced scientific, technological and industrial campus coupled with laboratories, research centers, prototyping and testing facilities. It will be structured in a way that invites scientists, thinkers, inventors and product developers to collaborate in new ways that have been impossible before. It also allows for the private development of infrastructure that supports the development of new ideas arising from these collaborations.

There are many research centers throughout the world with many good scientists working hard to create new treatments for many of man's illnesses and diseases. Unfortunately in most countries, political and special interests limit the availability and unnecessarily delay the introduction and use of many groundbreaking treatments and technologies. The first challenge is to cut through the red tape and disencumber the participants so that new technologies can develop in a natural and productive way.

In the scientific community, as well as in the university, the various sciences are divided into separate departments so that scientific research and education is segmented and specialized limiting the researcher's/student's ability to understand and use the various science areas together. In nature, the sciences are not segregated. For example; principles of physics are actually the controlling factors in biochemistry and can be used to measure and manipulate chemistry itself. It is rare however for a student to be adequately educated in both physics and chemistry. The second challenge is to provide an environment in which scientific concepts and ideas overcome the boundaries of the individual scientific disciplines.

There are also inherent problems in the university research grant system. The performance of research for research's sake represents a significant waste of human and financial resources. Throughout the world's universities many researchers survive on research grants. As long as they continue doing research they apply and receive grant money. It matters not that their research never results in practical application for the good of mankind. In many cases, if practical application were achieved as a result of research, the researcher's grants would end, disrupting their livelihood. The third challenge is to motivate researchers to achieve results by freeing them of financial burdens and grant programs that are counter-productive and to provide financial incentives that encourage success.

Duplicated effort is wasted effort. Knowledge that isn't shared is wasted knowledge. Throughout the world, scientists and researchers are unknowingly duplicating each other's experiments, following each other's footsteps often to the same dead-ends. It is clear that if scientists could know the dead-ends in advance, much effort could be saved. Often, scientific discoveries are a race between competitors. The recent decoding of the human genome is one example of this. Wouldn't this project have taken half as long if the competing scientific teams pooled their efforts? Recently, the same scientists who were competing to decipher the human genome challenged all scientists to participate in a cooperative effort to unravel the mysteries surrounding this important discovery. This is, however, unlikely to happen. Part of the problem is lack of communication and cooperation between research scientists - a natural byproduct of the grant system and the competitive nature of commercial science. Perhaps among scientists, a desire for personal recognition plays into this too. The fourth challenge is to achieve an environment where scientific research and ideas can be shared freely, advanced and built upon and where good scientific discussion and debate can lead to discoveries and products for the next millennium.

After many discussions it is very apparent that many researchers would jump at the chance to work in an environment free of political and financial agendas and self-interests. The creation of SciTown will create an environment where lifesaving research in its pure form and for the good of mankind can mature into real life treatments for many of the catastrophic illness which continue to plague mankind. Through humanitarian grants and corporate support (without corporate interference), scientists will be able to maintain an excellent standard of living.

Besides the direct medical and health benefits to mankind, many new technologies will be developed among which are technologies for water purification and the safe and increased production of food. These technologies can be brought into practical use alleviating starvation around the world. Many beneficial engineering technologies will develop here as well, among them bio-robotics and nanorobotics, prosthetics, fuel sciences and bio-organisms that aid in oil spill control, advanced medical diagnostic equipment, advanced bio-photographic and imaging technologies, therapeutic technologies and advanced sports and safety equipment. SciTown will also be the world leader in the development and manufacture of high-tech medical and surgical equipment.

As scientific breakthroughs evolve into new consumer products, a substantial manufacturing base will develop in SciTown. This manufacturing base will not only be able to support itself, but it will continually infuse capitol into the research and development of new products. It will be a self-perpetuating system that promotes product development and eliminates the need for taxation.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 294
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 5:37:58 PM
ok, so government funding that is utilized by an incubator (assume you know these around town?). How would this differ from say Amgen that has a mix of scientists dedicated to accomplishing an assigned project, or,

An A&D firm performing feasibility study on say active armor (intercepting a bullet with a bullet)?

Honestly applied science doesn't progress in this fashion, it is incremental, a small company makes microscopic seals, it's salesmen call on pacemaker mfr's and suggest a new model that utilizes these seals is safer, allows more battery life, etc. Conversely the pacemaker company will enter into new product development feasibility that requires new supporting technology and the suppliers are asked to propose solutions.

you said...It will be a self-perpetuating system that promotes product development and eliminates the need for taxation.

Yes, that's often called a corporation. You dislike profit. You don't trust that efficiency far overcomes profit. Were this not true the old Soviet Union would have been successful, they utilized the model you suggested.
 Petrified_Wood
Joined: 7/29/2009
Msg: 295
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 6:46:17 PM
Have you SEEN Amgen? I helped design Amgen's facilities. Building after building - (30+) hundreds of people supporting what? Two products. THAT's about it. Two products (at least when I was there). They make enough money off of those two drugs to support hundreds of workers. They HAVE to. And what do those workers do? They are the LEAST productive of any workers I've ever seen. They never worked - they spent their whole time attending meetings about the corporate structure. It was a TOTAL WASTE.

So yeah - NO... nothing like the corporate structure you're talking about. I'm talking streamlined efficiency - not the kind you find in corporations. If you think my model resembles the Soviet Union, you need to have a doctor look at that knee-jerk.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 296
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 7:02:47 PM
I attend many meetings about the corporate structure, it's hard work, it's important to do correctly, necessary but not sufficient.

I'm not certain you understand the subtlety of the system and process you despise. Accordingly, lacking this profound understanding, I suspect you'll find uncommon resistance in selling alternative processes.

While all new ideas come from the margins, and God knows you're pretty marginal, it takes people who understand the nuances to implement these changes (see change management). I have a six-pillar change management process I'll implement for a measly 10%

PS don't call me if it even hints of command and control, I've watched libs self-immolate twice now over healthcare reform lol.
 Petrified_Wood
Joined: 7/29/2009
Msg: 297
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 7:37:48 PM

I attend many meetings about the corporate structure, it's hard work, it's important to do correctly, necessary but not sufficient.


Entire countries could live on the stale donuts from Amgen's meetings.


I'm not certain you understand the subtlety of the system and process you despise.


I don't despise any systems. My job is to improve systems. To do this, I must understand the subtleties of the systems I improve - otherwise I wouldn't be any good at what I do. I'm not certain you understand how ridiculous you sound when you question my understanding of things that are way over your head.


Accordingly, lacking this profound understanding, I suspect you'll find uncommon resistance in selling alternative processes.


IOW, you've got nothing here to disagree with - so you want to pretend I've wasted my time and haven't thought this out. Too bad it went over your head. The plan is not only sound - I've already sold it to a sovereign government that wanted to jump-start THEIR economy. Better call them and tell them to ask for their money back.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 298
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 7:59:15 PM

It REALLY can work that way. Ya just have to stop being stupid about OUR role in this.


The last few posts actually explained it allot better, thank you for taking the time to school me since I am stupid.

The dunce will go sit in the corner and learn from all da smart people.

You may be an expert in your area, but I happen to be one in mine and would at least have the common decency to explain my thoughts on an idea to some one so they understand it, that's how you get buy in. But, then arrogance is a trait of the academic elite.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 299
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 7:59:35 PM
LOL peace my brother PW, the world anxiously awaits your book. Dare I ask what kind of country feels it can run a command and control economy? I'm reasonably certain whoever sold Japan on their MITI system would like to go unnamed.

A friend of mine wrote a book "American Samurai" which spent a lot of time describing how America needed a MITI-like system. Japan has only been in an 18 year slump so I guess these kind of system changes take some time to break in HAHAHA. A lot of what you guys describe as the next big thing is just repackaged central planning. I'd need an existence proof, just one. One? Show me one country that has improved their lot with this approach. I'll give you 10 without leaving the hemisphere, you get to use the entire world to find me one.

We're borrowing about $5B a day, $1.6T a year, mind-numbing numbers. Better hurry up and sell Obama on this plan, soon the Repubs will take back congress and straighten this nonsense out.
 Petrified_Wood
Joined: 7/29/2009
Msg: 300
Back to the Stimulus
Posted: 8/24/2009 11:52:02 PM

You may be an expert in your area, but I happen to be one in mine and would at least have the common decency to explain my thoughts on an idea to some one so they understand it, that's how you get buy in. But, then arrogance is a trait of the academic elite.


I'm not here to make friends, but I'll take your point. I just get a little annoyed at people trying to pigeonhole my idea as something they've already tried.


I'd need an existence proof, just one. One? Show me one country that has improved their lot with this approach.


This doesn't happen over night. I only sold the plan in 2000. Construction on the city didn't begin until 2002 and it's still being built but many companies (including Amgen) have bought into the business park system already and are setting up shop there. Dubai's economy is tanking faster than this can save it, but they are indeed trying what I have laid out.

http://www.dubiotech.ae/index.php?
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