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 jeliarra
Joined: 10/10/2004
Msg: 2
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?Page 2 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
Very good question!
1) How can there be free will if God already knows what we are going to do or not going to do? Which He does and He can put a dent in anything your doing or not doing. So where is the free will right?

2) All the things God CAN DO, what is the ONE thing He CAN NOT? Can He make any one of us LOVE Him? NO!!! He can not, period. We have the free will to love, like, dislike or even hate God. There is your free will.

Hope that helps, if you like I will look up the verses for ya
 Ticketoride
Joined: 6/3/2004
Msg: 3
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 10/10/2004 10:08:46 PM
"Free Will" is defined by and for one's self.
If it isn't, its not Free Will.
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 10/11/2004 3:32:54 PM
the experinces are layed before us...what we choose to do with them and how we choose to precive them is what makes it free will...he will stear us as jimi said only if we choose to listen to his guideance...it is like in the garden of eden...god knew we'd eat the fruit but he hope in the light of our new knowldge of him that we'd say sorry for not listening to him...if we had done so he would have reacted differently....as with many ponts in the bible based on our choices deturmins his reaction to us just as we deturmin our reaction to him...
but yes he knows how it will all play out but he does nothing to prevent us from doing as we choose...he didnt want me to have sex with woman...but he dint stop me untill i had asked him if it was ok...then he set me free from the spirit of homosexuality...as well as the lust that had me going against what he had told me about sex outside marrage...he doesnt want us to do alot of thing that we do in our live but he lets us do them...its our choice his devine will for our lives or his passive will in our lives....i want his devine plan for mine because his passive will lets me hurt my self way too much and i m sick of running into thebrick wall so to speak when he has open doors for me and a path layed out so clearly that it beams with his light and guideance along the way...
 forthebeauty
Joined: 7/14/2004
Msg: 5
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 10/11/2004 5:41:55 PM
Free will is to choose whether or not to have the lord as ur saviour. U have free will to choose in any situation which way to go, whether that be the right way or the wrong way. In the end u will be where GOD always knew u would be. God knows u, and he will put u in some circumstances, just to test ur faith. In the end u have the free will to choose, but ur right where GOD knew u would be, and planned for u to be.
 Ticketoride
Joined: 6/3/2004
Msg: 6
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 10/12/2004 7:52:30 PM
Freewill has nothing to do with any God.
Its your will, and if you want to add God to it is your Business.
They are Apples & Oranges.
 forthebeauty
Joined: 7/14/2004
Msg: 7
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 10/12/2004 8:06:41 PM
In my beliefs, there is a future, in heaven with GOD!!!! Yes we live in the now, doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure that one out, but I see a future. I will repeat myself, God knows u, he knows what choice u will make, before u make it. U still have that choice, he just knows u better than urself!!!! There is the "huge play" in effect because we were made for Gods pleasure, nothing more, so the trial and tribulations that we go through go back to adam and eve. There is a chosen few, to join the lord in heaven, he doenst beg, and if he is calling u and u turn the other way, then u wont be one of those chosen. And no matter what works u do in the now, if u dont accept him as lord and saviour u will burn in hell with the never ending worm working through out ur body.
If u do good blah blah blah, is not the case. Satan can do nothing unless the lord allows him to do it, and yes he will allow it sometimes, just to test ur faith. I agree that u cannot have the pride that ur refer to, if ur sincere with works, u will not brag about any of it, u will talk maybe about leading someone to the savour but not bragging

The bible is the word of God, simple. The bible and God is kinda like the wind, when it blows do u see it? no!!!! but u know its there and u know its the wind, because thats the way it always has been. I have never seen the lord but I know hes there because I have seen him work before, and know that is the way it has always been,Faith. Faith. Faith. I have faith because of miracles that the lord has worked around me. All of the history stuff, has no meaning to me, just because I have the faith. I dont need to know any of it, if he says its so then its so.
I just need to say that I will respect others beliefs if they do the same, and this is not based on me looking everything up in the bible, but just what I have been taught and from my feelings and knowledge of the lord
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 9
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/27/2005 6:39:54 AM
Belief in an omniscient, omnipotent God who created the universe precludes any notion of free will. If God knew every decision you would make at the moment of creation, and made the universe in a way that you could not do otherwise, you clearly have no free will. A stone thrown in the air has more choice in whether to fall, than you do when faced with a fork in the road. If you accept the all knowing, all powerful creator God.
 mjcthree
Joined: 6/27/2005
Msg: 10
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History
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/27/2005 9:41:39 AM
On a side note to silverthorn....Do you hold that the Bible shows God as a flawed being? This could and I am sure be an interesting discussion for many people, including myself.

Thinking that God of the Bible can be unperfect would put the whole idea that Jesus being one's saviour out to lunch. Since Jesus and God are one, then Jesus would have to be unperfect as well. Therefore he could not be a saviour to anyone for He would fall short of being the perfect sacrifice that is needed for one to have a true relationship with God.

On the topic of free will....(for everyone)....This topic will be one that will always bring discussion for us all. Free will does exist for all of us, because we have a choice to do what we want, as others have posted that means choosing to accept Him and what He has done for us or walking away from Him. God does know what every single person will choose to do and the end of it all and we are all accountable for that choice. If God had is way in our lives and did not what want us to have that choice we would all be following right at this moment in time and beyond, but that would not be a characteristic of a loving God.
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 11
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/27/2005 10:18:44 AM
Since Jesus and God are one, then Jesus would have to be unperfect as well. Therefore he could not be a saviour to anyone for He would fall short of being the perfect sacrifice that is needed for one to have a true relationship with God.
Well, For he has risen there fore there is no unperfect God. It has been prophecised and has been done therefore anyBible that states such is truth.

Even though the bible teaches us that Jesus rose from the dead in the same body that He died in and that His resurrected body was a glorified body, people still resist accepting this truth -- to their detriment.
"Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." 20 The Jews therefore said, "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?" 21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body," (John 2:19-21).
"When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst, and *said to them, "Peace be with you." 20And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced when they saw the Lord," (John 20:19-20).
"And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." (Luke 24:38-39).

It seems clear that Jesus' physical resurrection is a reality. When looking at the whole of scripture we see no contradiction dealing with Jesus' resurrection. Instead, we see an affirmation of the truth that Jesus did, in fact, raise His body just as He said He would in John 2:19-21.

Just as the free will choice the argument is that God knows what "we are going to choose." If we are going to choose" something, then we really are making the choice -- otherwise it wouldn't be logical to assert that God knows what we are going to choose. Choice implies the ability to decide between different options. Again, by definition if God is knowing what we are going to choose, then He knows what we are going to choose between options...otherwise we are not choosing anything and the statement is illogical.
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 12
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/27/2005 11:17:50 AM
God to know what a person will choose does not mean that the person has no freedom to make the choice. It simply means that God knows what the person will choose. This is necessarily so since God knows all things (1 Joh 3:20). Besides, if a person were to choose A instead of C, then that is what God would have known would happen.

Knowing what a person will do still does not force them or limit them to doing what is known. The complaint of those who say that if God knows what we are going to do then we don't have "real" freedom is logically stating that God's foreknowledge of an event somehow limits the event and the choice of the individual. The complaint implies that there is an action by God upon a person that negates His freedom to choose. It would be up to the complainer to establish some logical connection between what God knows what will happen and the mind of the one who makes a choice so that the mind of the person making the choice no longer is making a choice. It seems that the critics are saying that the choice-maker is affected by God's knowledge to such an extent that his freedom is lost. If that is the case, then can they prove this logically? If not, then how can they maintain their position?
God's knowing what we will choose is a function of His omnipresence since He is in all places all the time. If He were not, He would not know what choices were were freely going to make. To deny that God is all knowing, even of the choices we make, is to deny His omnipresence and reduce God's nature to something more like ourselves, which would be a mistake.
 SoCal1972
Joined: 2/2/2005
Msg: 13
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/27/2005 11:37:09 AM
You are assuming that God is bound by the same concept of time that we are. I dont thnk God is a 4th dimensional being. I think, the divine can exist in any point in time, and any instance of the multiverse, ie any point in the time/space multiverse. I think, we too, evolve in our ability to trancend the 4th and 5th dimensions, hence our growing affinity for precog and awareness of past lives (in some of us).

Of course, to assume this, the concept of eternal damnation and god making mistakes become somewhat moot.
 SoCal1972
Joined: 2/2/2005
Msg: 14
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/27/2005 11:55:59 AM
Can the past be changed?

Maybe. It might just create a different instance, or put the 'changer' on a different alternate. Their timeline remanins unchanged, but they are no longer a part of that timeline.
 SoCal1972
Joined: 2/2/2005
Msg: 15
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/27/2005 12:55:52 PM
Is God all knowing?

(If yes, then the future is known, as well as all possible futures. This lends credit to God not being bound by 4th or 5th dimensions. If No, then this discredits the Divine as being omnicient)
 mjcthree
Joined: 6/27/2005
Msg: 16
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History
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/28/2005 8:33:38 AM
I agree that God is perfect entirely, was just trying to make a comment on another post on saw in here that mentioned that the Bible in the Old testament picture of God is flawed. I was trying to show (maybe not the greatest) that if God is flawed then Jesus could not be our saviour because they are one, and if one is flawed then the other must be as well. I have no doubt that Christ is perfect and so is God, and that all that He has done is reality, if not I would not be where I am today.

Back on to free will, I know you think that I made an illogical statement. I was having a dicussion at my Bible study on Free Will with my fellow brothers in Christ. I think we all have a hard understanding the whole Free Will and God's all knowing ability. The fact that God does know what we will choose does not negate that we have the free will to choose.
 mjcthree
Joined: 6/27/2005
Msg: 17
view profile
History
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/28/2005 1:23:29 PM
Actually the path is not made out for us, our path is based on our own choices that we make. Yes, God knows that path but He does not alter the path we produce by our choices. But truthfully this all breaks down to one question-what is our personal view on God and His character?


Christ is perfect" yea because we made him that way!
........the imperfect can not make something perfect
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 18
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/28/2005 7:41:17 PM


Well, For he has risen there fore there is no unperfect God. It has been prophecised and has been done therefore anyBible that states such is truth.


Actually Jesus flubbed this one up. He said that after 3 days and 3 nights he'd rise. But look at the chronology. Jesus is crucified on Good Friday. The women find the empty tomb on Sunday morning. I want to know how you fit 3 days and nights between Friday afternoon and Sunday morning.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 19
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/28/2005 7:46:24 PM


Yes there is free will. That's why their is sin. Just because God knows what we will chose to do doesn't mean we don't have free will.


Um, how do you figure? God knows I'm going to kill someone tomorrow. Is there anyway I can not kill that person? If I don't kill that person then God was wrong. But if God is perfect and never wrong then I must kill that person. There's no way I could not kill that person because God is never wrong. So if there's no way I can refrain from killing that person then I don't have free will, by definition.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 20
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/28/2005 7:49:09 PM
Just wondering, where in the Bible does it say we have free will?
 SoCal1972
Joined: 2/2/2005
Msg: 21
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/29/2005 11:15:01 AM

the imperfect can not make something perfect


Then how can you put so much faith into the bible? Divinely inspired, perhaps, but if you play great music with a flawed instrument, you still dont get it right.
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 22
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/29/2005 12:45:24 PM
Now here we go again ......because the flawed instrument is we as a people.

If one tries to follow what our creators intentions were he will accept us.
The creator is speaking in the Bible, man has just sucome to his own will, that they keep trying to hide the fact that the bible is true and they flawed there and they would not admit their guilt. One of man's hardest lessons when you know your wrong will you come to admit it? and to God?
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 23
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/29/2005 1:18:19 PM
No but it is a good start....

When one comes to a "Y" in the road what do you do?

So how are you going to use this free will? For?
 Dei Gratia
Joined: 6/2/2005
Msg: 24
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 6/29/2005 7:34:40 PM
So that would mean you do not put God first.....and he means so well for you.
In free will, a sinner is equally able to choose God or reject God regardless of his sinful condition. Or, a sinner can only choose to do that which is consistent with his sinful nature.
 EdwardVII
Joined: 10/7/2005
Msg: 25
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 10/19/2005 6:13:47 AM
This is a very important topic, in that when one takes sides, there are really interesting repercussions. For example, if you believe in Predestination, then Free Will becomes compromised, but if you don't believe in Predestination then you compromise on the omniscience of God. If you do not believe in the Omnipotence of God, or his Omniscience, or Omnipresence, then you can of course believe in Free Will, without butting up against a logical objection.

So there are lots of things to consider. I personally believe in Free Will, without condition. I do not believe in an Omnipotent God, albeit he may be immensely capable, he is neither perfect, nor all powerful, (just a lot more powerful than me!).

I believe that God may have set things in motion, but then is as interested in what happens next as we are (Deist Philosophy). This makes his conversations recorded in the Bible make sense. You know, with Job he apparently was prepared to not know how things would go in order to have a bet with the Devil. Similarly with Abraham, God's friend, there are several instances where God and Abe chat it up like old friends, neither indicating that they knew all of the future, and in fact being apparently surprised by it.

Imagine for a moment how it would be possible for an omnipotent God to get angry with his creation for something it did, when God knew all along it was going to happen! Well take the story of Noah, or Sodom and Gomorrah for example. And gee, was the old man ever pissed at those moments!

So, Free Will - absolutley. Omnipotence, Omniscience or Omnipresence - No way!.

Ed..
 EdwardVII
Joined: 10/7/2005
Msg: 26
Free Will: A Yes or No proposition?
Posted: 10/19/2005 6:25:59 AM
Dear Enchantress:

I agree with you, and would only say that in the event of an apparently evil being like Hitler and so on, whether we agree or not, people are basically good, but certainly capable of evil actions.

There's no such thing as Original Sin Syndrome, except as a psychosomatic ailment. Evil is an acquired viewpoint, not inborn. It can be handled, but in the case of Adolf and others like him, you would have to get him into a very calming environment in order to defuse the madness that was feeding the hatred. Madness is a add on item done by the being to himself, and can be undone. It may manifest itself as a chemical imbalance, but it is NOT caused by a chemical imbalance. This will spark a big debate amongst the phsychiatry set, but only because they cannot confront the idea that man is a spiritual entity, who is inhabiting a body in order to better experience the physical universe (sensation is great). Often all they can recommend is Drug Therapy, which doesn't work, and only makes things harder to resolve (fogs the mind)...They (psychs) are scared to death of spirits.

Ed..
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