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Show ALL Forums  > Over 45  > Women question a man over 50 and not been married?      Home login  
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 legacypgmr
Joined: 11/27/2008
Msg: 76
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?Page 4 of 25    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25)
Sassy


as far as her telling you "all about" never married people, I'd take that with a grain of salt, if I were you. there are many reasons for people to have never married. I won't go into it, since I already have many times on these redundant posts, as have other people. I will say - for the 1,000th time - you can't tar everyone with the same brush. you can't apply generalizations to people and be satisfied that you've hit on the answer. we seem to be a nation intrigued with statistics and pigeonholes, so psychologists and medical personnel fill in those spaces for us, and we seem to take it as gospel. generalizations help fuel prejudice, too.


Don't be so defensive - nobody's tarring ANYBODY with the same brush.

Not that I expect everyone, or even anyone, to remember everything I've said but I DID say (Post 131) "She basically told me not to bother contacting women who hadn't been married by the age of 50. They (guys too of course) just can't commit. Simple as that. Now, of course, that IS a generalization. There ARE exceptions (to every rule). But after all generalizations ARE generalizations because they are,,,,,, ummmmm,,,,,, wellllll,,,,, generally true.

There are other reasons of course; too picky, never grew up, doesn't want a family, etc, etc, etc but "can't commit" tops the hit parade."

Post 142 "Generalization is something people do ALL the time. PhD's are no different. She would NOT be "diagnosing" a specific person but a GROUP of like (NOT identical)
individuals."

There are perfectly valid reasons for "generalizing" and NOBODY ANYWHERE said there are NO exceptions.
 Fifi47
Joined: 8/19/2004
Msg: 77
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/27/2009 2:40:22 AM
Sassy my standards are the same....I have not had a series of long term relationships when I did not marry one of the men (if there was no potential for marriage why waste our time), and have not lived with anyone. My goal when dating has always been marriage, for the most part, and the fact that I have not been married has nothing to do with the fact that I have never wanted to be married. Several men have wanted to marry me, but I knew it was not the right thing, so I ended the relationships instead of dating them when we were not on the same page.
 Fifi47
Joined: 8/19/2004
Msg: 78
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/27/2009 3:09:45 PM
I have never mentioned wanting to marry Mr. Perfect, and sorry that you find me to not be a respectable person. Good grief, people never cease to amaze me, and my dating habits are no business of strangers, especially ones who seem to have all the answers without knowing the situations or people involved in the situations. The judging and condescending comments are quite tacky.
 legacypgmr
Joined: 11/27/2008
Msg: 79
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/27/2009 5:15:58 PM

I have never mentioned wanting to marry Mr. Perfect, and sorry that you find me to not be a respectable person.


She did NOT say you were not a respectable person. She said it would be MORE respectable if you just said, "I'm picky and I enjoy living on my own too much so marriage, with all it's compromises and sharing, isn't a priority unless Mr. Perfect shows up." which is EXACTLY what it sounds like you've done.


Good grief, people never cease to amaze me, and my dating habits are no business of strangers, especially ones who seem to have all the answers without knowing the situations or people involved in the situations. The judging and condescending comments are quite tacky.


These forums are for discussion. If you don't want to discuss your dating habits why put them out there ? You really didn't have to - but once out, you don't expect anybody to comment on them or ask other questions ??? NOLA did not sound condescending to me but then, given your original postings, I can see how she might have to you. Tough looking in the mirror sometimes, isn't it ? (I KNOW it is for ME !!!)
 legacypgmr
Joined: 11/27/2008
Msg: 80
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/27/2009 5:17:03 PM

The opinions I've seen thus far in this thread are:

Never married = red flag!

No long term relationships at all = red flag!

Long term relationships without marriage = red flag!

Married and divorced 2/3+ times = red flag!


Sounds like you've got it about right.
 Fifi47
Joined: 8/19/2004
Msg: 81
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/27/2009 9:57:29 PM
Opinions are just that---personal opinions...no one has the monopoly on saying someone is this way or that way, and manners are lacking around here (just my opinion, of course)
 Fifi47
Joined: 8/19/2004
Msg: 82
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/28/2009 5:24:52 AM
The original question seemed to be about why women might question a man over 50 who has not been married, he probably has not met the appropriate woman who appreciates the treasure that he is. I will never express any sort of personal things again on any forum, as this seems to paint me in a totally erroneous negative light. If people want to know things about me, they can always send me a private message, but that would probably not satisfy their curiosity in the way they find appealing.
 maryb1956
Joined: 12/9/2006
Msg: 83
view profile
History
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/29/2009 1:52:17 PM
i see alot of men in their 50's and older who have never been married, i check them out, due to the fact i don't want to get married. some men just haven't found their soul mate, or have and never bothered to tie the knot, and are probably glad of that when it doesen't work out. it is alot less paperwork.

i have no problem with a man who has always been single.
 tinkerbellcgy
Joined: 9/17/2005
Msg: 84
view profile
History
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/29/2009 3:51:33 PM

Assuming all the cards fell into place, i.e., right person, etc., would you marry now...at this age?


Absolutely! As soon as I get over this cancer thingy, I'll start looking once again. And whilst I'm looking, I'll get busy and draft up the Pre-Nup (leaving a space to insert the lucky gentleman's name) just in case someone comes along that is worthy of me. What a deal, eh?
 tinkerbellcgy
Joined: 9/17/2005
Msg: 85
view profile
History
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/29/2009 3:51:44 PM

Assuming all the cards fell into place, i.e., right person, etc., would you marry now...at this age?


Absolutely! As soon as I get over this cancer thingy, I'll start looking once again. And whilst I'm looking, I'll get busy and draft up the Pre-Nup (leaving a space to insert the lucky gentleman's name) just in case someone comes along that is worthy of me. What a deal, eh?
 Fifi47
Joined: 8/19/2004
Msg: 86
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/29/2009 4:08:54 PM
Yes, I would marry at my age, if we felt that we were better together than we were apart...compliment, not complicate each other's lives.
 strollinbella
Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 87
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/29/2009 4:26:41 PM
Yes, I would. I hope to one day marry the man I can't imagine not having in my life. Have I found him? Not yet; at least I don't think I have.

I have enjoyed being single, but would love to experience married life.
 legacypgmr
Joined: 11/27/2008
Msg: 88
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/29/2009 6:15:21 PM

To the never married people over 50:

Assuming all the cards fell into place, i.e., right person, etc., would you marry now...at this age?


You don't really think you're going to get a "No", do you ?

(BTW Karen - Whoa !!!! - Sorry, did I say that out loud ?!?!?! - California, eh ? Always wanted to visit California )
 legacypgmr
Joined: 11/27/2008
Msg: 89
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/29/2009 6:32:56 PM

Posted By: SensualVixenII on 3/25/2009 246 PM
Subject: Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Message: I am very leary of dating unmarried men over 50. Too set in their ways and makes me wonder why they never committed to marriage when they were younger.

Response:
How long have you had this enlightened, intellectual point of view? (said with tongue in cheek). I'm glad you have reached a state of infallability. (see last parenthetical remark). I quite suspect that you don't need to be in any relationship; you are in love with yourself, and you will have no rivals.


FunnyFace,

Pardon me but I'm not all that bright so I wonder if you could explain the purpose of this post AND why you directed it at HER (since a number of others have espoused the SAME thoughts and apprehensions ) ??? Because I've got to tell you it sounds pretty sarcastic, condescending and obnoxious to me. I might suggest you give her plenty of reason to hold the exact view she does.

There also may be 1 of 2 others that might be confused about your intent here as well. Perhaps hearing this shite from someone like yourself validates her position ???

I mean, not the *my* opinion matters at all but I wasn't all that impressed with your other post that ended with "So, give some credit to people who have not married yet. You probably know one or two of these people, or are friends with them. Are they really horrible people?"

I was going to ask you who SAID "never marrieds" were "horrible" people (because nobody actually DID) but decided I'd just let it lay.

And BTW, it's "infallibility". I guess YOU'RE not infallible either now, are you ?

NOW you post this. Care to explain a bit ?

TIA
 legacypgmr
Joined: 11/27/2008
Msg: 90
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/30/2009 8:26:30 PM

I do think it is self-centered to reject all folks over 50 who are not married.


First of all I'm sorry to hear about all your physical problems. I've been blessed with good health pretty much all my life so it's difficult for me to relate on that basis.

Secondly, no offense FF, but that's just silly. I see you haven't listed ANY "requirements" for people to mail you so I guess any sex, any age, any race, any height, any weight, any distance away from you, among many other things is OK, right ? Well, maybe that works for YOU but my guess is the vast majority of people on the site have at least a FEW "requirements". Except for ME of course - hell, I'm thrilled when ANYBODY write to ME !!!

So if a 21 Y.O. (I imagine female ) Aborigine living in the middle of Australia wanted to get together with you, you'd entertain that ? Well, YOU might but most people won't. Look at this absolute doll from California (Karen). It's a SURE THING that she gets far more e-mail than the average duck and if she had NO "requirements" (as yourself), can you imagine how many e-mails she'd have to try to sort through ? So she lists guys from 49 to 55. 4 years younger to "only" 2 years older. Not a very wide range now is it ? But what're ya gonna do ? That's what SHE wants. That's what floats HER boat. She believes unmarried around 50 is a BAD BET. She is CORRECT. (But then again, "Harleys" ??? )

It's ALL a matter of odds. As I said before, of course there are other reasons BESIDES them being unable to commit (As I said earlier " There are other reasons of course; too picky, never grew up, doesn't want a family, etc, etc, etc but "can't commit" tops the hit parade.") but with soooooo many choices and sooooo little time to spend trying to cull out the herd (so to speak) why SHOULDN'T that be one of his/her criteria ? It's simply a very bad bet and takes too much time to vet the reason why.



Then I read this shallow statement from that woman who says people like me are worthless in a relationship


Once again I disagree this is a "shallow" statement even though I understand why YOU think it is but seriously, you might want to think what you say before you say it. NOBODY that *I* can recall said you or any other "never married" was "worthless" in a relationship. Please stop putting words into other peoples' mouths.



Maybe now you can understand my point of view, and can see that when one doesn't know all the facts, it's difficult to make a reasonable conclusion about every man over 50.


Already understood (as mentioned above) but most ladies don't have the time to investigate the "why", only THAT you've never been married.



I hope that Sensual Vixen can come to understand that not all single people are pending disasters to be hauled to the relationship "dump", as she related in her universal statement.



Sensual Vixen said "I am very leary of dating unmarried men over 50. Too set in their ways and makes me wonder why they never committed to marriage when they were younger."


SV said she is "leery" and she felt never marrieds are "too set in their ways". She never said you/they were "pending disasters to be hauled to the relationship dump". Once again you GREATLY exaggerate (for effect ?).



You said, "And BTW, it's "infallibility". I guess YOU'RE not infallible either now, are you ?

Btw, you misspelled "site." Hehehe. You spelled it, "shite." It was funny, because I thought you had misspelled a cuss word.


Correct - I am nowhere NEAR infallible. And incorrect, I did NOT misspell anything. If you re-read the sentence, "site" does not fit. I purposely misspelled shit (the cuss word) with the current "slang" spelling because I figure the site would **** it out as it did "cocktail dress" in my profile.

I won't bother with the rest of your 2nd post as it's just rehashing most of what I answered above from your first post. It may not be "fair" but the reality is that on a dating site where there are soooooo many choices, a lady first doesn't answer, or says "Thanks but no thanks". She doesn't have TIME to ask why you were never married and very possibly the answer would be the guy only fooling himself anyway in an effort to "If she only e-mails and then talks to me on the phone and then meets me she'll change her mind".

She hasn't got the time and has many more candidates that (more closely) FIT what she's looking for much better than the "never married" guy. Hell, *I* can't contact "Karen" because I'm over 55. Do you hear ME crying about THAT ? If she met me I'm SURE my age wouldn't matter !!! But maybe the 2,000+ miles would ? Wait a minute - that's not THAT far !!!



It boils down, to a good degree, that if a guy who has had, say, two divorces and is a little jaded about marriage, would he be a better candidate for another marriage, as contrasted to a fairly good guy who has not been married? There are many questions that we could come up with, regarding these two contrasting fellows. If we were to pick the experienced guy with the divorces, can we rightly say that he is the better candidate? That seems to be the thrust of the topic.


I previously promised to ask my psychologist friend about multiple marriages and I will when I speak to her but *I* would say the guy (or girl) that is twice divorced, at least TRIED to make that (ultimate ?) commitment. OK, it didn't work out (twice) but at least he/she TRIED. And hopefully we ALL learn from our mistakes(?). The never married guy/girl didn't even TRY and most likely had a fair number of chances and for one reason or another (and of course it's not always his/her fault) never made it happen.
 legacypgmr
Joined: 11/27/2008
Msg: 91
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/30/2009 8:29:41 PM

I personally feel I am a lot more mature and self aware of the hurdles that would be involved in making a successful union now, than I ever was when I was young.

Apparently, some think that because someone has never been married they haven't study the relationships they have been in. I feel that I have studied those relationships relentlessly.

I feel I am more qualified for marriage now than I ever would have been in my 20s. As, perhaps, many that were married early and are now divorced feel.

I am simply fortunate enough to have passed on a mistake that many made in their immature years.


For YOUR sake and any future mate's I hope you are right and are not just fooling ourselves.

We DO have a tendency to do that sometimes, don't we ?

Hell, *I* still look in the mirror (freshly showered and shaved of course) and think I'm 45 or so !!!
 legacypgmr
Joined: 11/27/2008
Msg: 92
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/30/2009 8:33:02 PM
{quote]And I wouldn't marry someone who has proved that when they make a commitment, they break it.

But you're not looking for a mate; you're just looking for an "activity partner".

Does that mean he/she MUST be single/never married ?!?!?!
 legacypgmr
Joined: 11/27/2008
Msg: 93
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/30/2009 8:49:50 PM

Thanks Legacy

Actually, if you all read my profile, I did put in there that I wouldn't be interested in the never-been-marrieds. Now, I'm a bit ashamed of my narrow-mindedness (and the affect that 'at-the-time 'nonchalant statement might have on others)...but still it reverberates in the back of my mind that I am really not that special.


Narrow-mindedness not at ALL. We ALL must have some selection criteria else how would we EVER wade through all the "possibles". (BTW, sorry about your loss BTW )

As for "not really that special", care for a 2nd opinion ?

"a wicked sense of humour, can be too loud and outspoken at times, am bluntly honest and I love to have fun!" Sure sounds like a "Dorothy Zbornak" to me !!!



It's not like I'm going to wow someone so much that they are going to give up their singleness, which one would assume they are very comfortable with by now, for me and the unfamiliar path of marriage.


Hmmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,, *I* know what YOU need ~~~>



And since I am looking for 'forever' (listen to the roar as all of the men stampede out the door), aren't my odds better with someone that has known the full impact (good and bad) of marraige and is willing to do it again?


Most likely a resounding YES !!!



Not sure if I said that right, but I think that the bottom line is that so many of us are guided by fear. My fear, in this case, is that my dream of a 'forever' partner...one whom loves me enough to commit to a lifetime with me in the traditional way...would not be realized,,,,,,


Trust me Kiddo, you are NOT alone. And I'm sorry to say the longer it takes the harder is gets - take it from one who knows or at least has (make that IS), experiencing exactly that !



Because history does tell a story.


How's that go again ? Those that fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it ?!?!?!
 legacypgmr
Joined: 11/27/2008
Msg: 94
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/31/2009 3:06:19 PM
I won't even bother with your idiotic attempt at humor by messing around with 50, 49, 48, etc. Everybody will pick their OWN age to see as a "red flag".


As I have mentioned in my case, I have a good reason for being single at this age. I did it because I did not want to ruin a woman's life with my past difficulites. That shows character, self-sacrifice (whether ill-advises or not.) If a woman could not comprehend my own particular situation, in light of my singleness, there is no use in even knowing her as an acquaintence, let alone as a friend.


Perhaps you ruined that lady's life by FORCING her out of yours (past difficulties or not) ??? Did you ever ask her ?


Because of my own decades long suffering and recovery, I can be extraordinarily empathetic if you have a problem. I don't take people or things for granted; I'm thankful for any good that comes my way, no matter how imperfect in might be. I'm extremely patient, and sensitive to the needs of others around me. Yet, by the definition of some, I do not qualify as being a good mate.


You simply REFUSE to recognize that I (and others) have said there are EXCEPTIONS to every "rule". Perhaps YOU are such an exception ? Yet you CONTINUE to argue that "they" think you do not qualify as a good mate.


If a woman could not comprehend my own particular situation, in light of my singleness, there is no use in even knowing her as an acquaintence, let alone as a friend.


So if SHE likes Skippy peanut butter and YOU like Peter Pan, she can't be an acquaintance OR a friend ???


My only vice is discussion boards, and of that, mostly political ones, from which I have developed bad habits of going for the jugular.


If you argue a point on other discussion boards and refuse to accept/read ANYTHING from the "opposition" (as you so clearly do HERE) I imagine it's YOUR "jugular" that's pouring out blood. You just don't realize it.
 legacypgmr
Joined: 11/27/2008
Msg: 95
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/31/2009 3:28:01 PM
First of all your posts would be far easier to read if you broke it down into paragraphs and began sentences with capital letters - but whatever.

You know, you said that previous post was your last so I didn't even bother with you. But now that you choose to speak up again,,,,,,,,,


Oh Legacypgmr I think your lady friend is wrong on people over fifty. as far as commitment I am more committed than a lot of young people I know. you have to be when you work 15 to 20 hours a day seven days a week.


Firstly, committing to WORK and committing to another PERSON are so clearly 2 different things that point really doesn't justify an answer (although I guess I just DID )

Secondly, as I've said before that is a general rule about people AROUND 50 (better funny Face ) and of course there ARE exceptions. Perhaps as FunnyFace believes himself to be an exception you are one also ?

Thirdly, you can think she's wrong all you like but she has credentials worldwide and you believe YOU are right and SHE is wrong. Fine. Whatever.


you took and made light of the comment of being judged well is that not what was being done by enszygirl about guys over 50 and never married, no kids when she said red flag


And yes, she was RIGHT - what's your point ?


We don't ask for anyones point of view on what we are looking for in life nor do we care for thier opinions.


Fine, then don't post on a subject if you don't want anybody to discuss what you post. You can give YOUR opinion on something but if somebody has a different opinion THEY are "judging" ??? You MUST be kidding. This is a DISCUSSION board, no ? You don't want your opinion "judged"/questioned/debated/whatever, the answer is simple - don't POST one.


We ("never marrieds") look at people that divorce as people not to trust as they can not abide by vows that they have taken.


Fine. That's YOUR prerogative. I personally have no problem with that. Perhaps others do. So why do YOU have a problem with someone "disqualifying" a "never married" ??? Isn't that a little bit hypocritical ?

As for the rest of your post I fell asleep somewhere in the middle - not quite sure WHAT point you were trying to make regarding never married and 50, but whatever.

Yup - you, Levi, and FunnyFace - 3 peas in a pod. Sure hope if a lady's interested in any of you she checks out your forum posts.

Take care.
 enszygirl44
Joined: 3/12/2008
Msg: 96
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 3/31/2009 5:09:46 PM
" She like Skippy peanut butter and you like Peter Pan"...omg...That was hilarious!
 strollinbella
Joined: 6/30/2007
Msg: 97
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 4/1/2009 6:13:32 PM
I second the welcome back, dear Ismene!!

To Nola, as I have said in each and every thread I've come across in which someone either questions why someone has never married or said they would never date a "single, never married," I was in one commonlaw relationship years ago that lasted 9 years. Another one lasted for 3 years. In each of these live-in relationships we were connected physically, spiritually, financially, and virtually every other way a married couple is. In the one case we didn't marry because he didn't want to take that step, and in the other case we did get engaged but never made it to the altar due to issues of abuse.

Though we weren't married on paper, the first man and I considered ourselves to be married.

Another poster said the only reason they would hesitate to date a "never married" is if he still lived with his mother. At my age, I would also hesitate to do so, unless of course he was living with her so that he could take care of her and not to take advantage of her loving nature to get free room and board.
 legacypgmr
Joined: 11/27/2008
Msg: 98
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 4/1/2009 6:14:09 PM

(S)ee I even did the same during the time I was in school. (N)o biggie to me.





Second: See I do consider it a commitment for work since my hobbies are being a designer and creator of miniatures. This also takes dedication as well. My commitment is to the people I make my miniatures for I refuse to give anything but the best I can possibly give to them.

Nola already answered THIS one.



Third: Now for the comment of enszygirl. See not all guys over 50, never married, and no kids means a red flag. If it was so with every guy then yes I would agree by no means but it is not.


Wrong. For HER those guys ARE a "red flag" just as for YOU, "divorced" is a "red flag". Whether there are reasons why the person is NOT typical and therefore the red flag appellation is undeserved, as I mentioned before, nobody has the time to "interview" everybody. Everybody needs their OWN criteria to evaluate prospective mates.

Can you HEAR ME NOW ???



Fourth: I am not going to address each and everything I said doesn't matter to me. My point to this is why should we have to judge someone for something that may not have been something that could not have been different in thier lives. We don't know but we should at least give them the chance by getting to know them and letting them explain. Now this does not apply to everyone and I am not foolish or dumb enough to think otherwise.


Redundant - and answered above.



I do have one thing I think I will address tho. I personally have no problem with someone that has divorced for any reason.


So you changed your mind since yesterday ? Or is this an April Fool's gag ???


I personally lived with a lady that had been divorced four times. After a while I found out why and it didn't exactly fit her description of how or why they ended and I found out first hand. So even tho one may ask they may never know the complete story.

My whole point is that if there is a red flag on someone that is single, never married and no kids. Then by no means does it not seem that should not be the same to someone that has divorced.


Can somebody please decode this for me ?

TIA



Now I will also say I refused to just settle for just anyone. I would have rather lived single for my entire life than to just settle with someone. I had to be sure I loved the lady and trusted her completely. I refuse to not be completely and totally into what steps I take when I make a promise like a wedding vow. I also know I have to throw out the one speck of doubt that remains and I know I can do that. See that is not a promise to anyone but one person and that is to myself. As I had said before I would rather die before breaking a promise to anyone especially to me.


Now let me say this I am sorry that I didn't fully explain myself and most likely I still haven't but thats fine. I have found what I am looking for and I do intend to make the step. We do intend to make the best of it and just be into each other. So people have fun and keep on with what ever you do. take care.

Congratulations.

Be sure to keep us posted and let us know when the big event is.
 legacypgmr
Joined: 11/27/2008
Msg: 99
Women question a man over 50 and not been married?
Posted: 4/3/2009 10:35:52 AM

It continues to amaze me how easy women apparently think it is for a man to just "get married" in this life. We have to take the initative, beg you to have something to do with us and deal with rejection time and again. The whole courting process is really quite degrading to men, who like women would love to be actively desired, approached and pursued if women would only do it. To the women I ask: Would you really like to have our role?


Then there's the case of "Justkaren2" who told us (on a different thread) how she contacted a guy (first) and the guy told her it made her look "desperate"

On your profile you SAY you're "Just looking for a nice lady to email a bit back and forth, maybe meet for lunch if we get along. I like animals, sports, reading non-fiction, movies, tennis, short trips, etc. I'm a reasonable person and easy going."

Perhaps the reality isn't quite the same ???

The fact is that, for the last 30 years or so, unless your next door neighbor was the Una-bomber, or you're a Michael J Pollard look-alike trying to date Elle MacPherson, or you make $20K per year and are trying to date Paris Hilton, you SHOULD have found more than a few ladies of the type you're (apparently) looking for.
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