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 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 51
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Cap and Trade and Global WarmingPage 3 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
Well, but CO2 is now officially a "pollutant." And here we all are, walking around exhaling the stuff all over each other! There ought to be a law!
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 52
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/8/2009 4:51:51 PM
Match can you direct me to soem article on how and why the Supreme Court did this. Now they are threatening congress that is they don't pass Cap and Tax they will put massive regulations in place. Is this even legal or constitutional, sounds like black male.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 53
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Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/11/2009 10:27:44 AM
Charles Krauthammer just wrote a nice piece on what this is all about:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZjA4Y2VlOGU4MDQ3MDc0MWRkN2ExMzIzMjdmZWMwYmE=

The bright spot is the Congressional Review Act of 1996. It says Congress can review every regulation federal administrative agencies make, and overrule any it disapproves of by a joint resolution of both Houses. Whether Congress would use this law now to remove EPA's authority to control most of the U.S. economy by regulating CO2, who knows? But as the fall elections next year get closer, there will probably be a lot of Democrat members of Congress who won't dare *not* to. If the cap-and-trade bill is as unpopular as polls show, it's not likely most people want to see an EPA regulation used--misused-- to throttle all businesses great and small.
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 54
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/11/2009 2:17:22 PM
The answer is to plant more plants and trees and continue to breath in and breath out no problem. Here all they want is money to promote thier stupid agenda. It's so sickening to even think about how stupid it really is.
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 55
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/11/2009 2:30:08 PM
So if we keep the CO2's in, by making our houses too tight, then we have people inside getting sick. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 56
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/11/2009 5:11:41 PM
We've all witnessed how far this kind of agenda based pseudo science can go with the theory of evolution.
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 57
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/11/2009 10:27:11 PM
Roc, if he is right, I wonder who else is aware of it. This is getting rather interesting the more I see you delve into it. That EPA site is propaganda deluxe.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 58
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Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/12/2009 12:08:32 AM
Yes--that came up in GC's thread, and this is what I posted there.

A U.S. president's power to make treaties isn't absolute. He has to make them "by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate . . . provided two thirds of the Senators present concur[.]" U.S.C. Art II. sec. 2, cl. 2. I don't know whether Obama would have the 67 votes needed to ratify this "protocol" and make it a treaty, although I'm sure someone's been watching all this and has written about the odds.

There are only federal treaties--states can't make them. Art. I, sec. 10, cl.1 The U.S. Constitution trumps all treaties and all other laws. If a treaty or federal law conflicts with a *state* constitution or law, the treaty or federal law controls. If a federal law and a treaty conflict, the more recent of the two trumps the other.

As I said earlier, Congress can use the Congressional Review Act of 1996 to disapprove of that EPA reg any time, and it's gone. But as of now, the will may not be there to do it.

Whoever Ditmar is, I don't know why he's worried about Obama doing this. He can sign whatever agreement he wants, but he can't bind the U.S. to it. The Senate has to ratify all treaties.

What interested me more was that he brought up treason. That's the second time today I heard someone do that--Sean Hannity was interviewing some of the 9/11 families, and a man who'd lost his son at the Trade Center calmly suggested the same thing about our president. Treason and bribery are the two crimes the Constitution names as grounds for impeachment. And then there are other "high crimes and misdemeanors."
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 59
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Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/12/2009 12:53:17 AM
I haven't heard anyone claim CO2 isn't a greenhouse gas. It is, although water vapor's by far the most important one.

For anyone who's interested, the case where the Supreme Court held that CO2 is a "pollutant" within the meaning of the Clean Air Act is Massachusetts v. EPA, 549 U.S. 497 (2007). The five Justices who thought so arrived at their decision by ignoring common sense and reading the relevant definition in the CAA is the most unreasonable way possible. And they're not so dumb they don't know very well the members of Congress who wrote the Act in 1970 never even dreamed of regulating carbon dioxide as a "pollutant."

This case shows how a majority of the Court, once it decides what answer it wants, can twist the words to make it come out the right way. Kind of like the NFL refs who know how to call an incomplete pass a fumble when everyone can see the receiver never had possession of the ball, or rule that a ballcarrier didn't make it on fourth down, when everyone watching can see he did--whatever it takes to make the game come out a certain way.
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 60
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/12/2009 9:22:51 AM
CO2 is plant food. Plants use it to make oxygen. What science classes did you take?
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 61
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Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/12/2009 2:03:32 PM

Match, what role might state power play in the economic disruption the "EPA Co2 pollutant pet" can cause?


See my post 79 in this thread. I'm not too worried about an EPA reg--even one that seems to be this far-reaching. I think Obama's holding out the threat of it to try to help his other initiatives--cap and trade, or maybe health care. But it's sort of a hollow threat--no administrative agency can do something Congress strongly doesn't want it to.

The only authority to make regulations that EPA or any administrative agency has comes from laws--in this case the Clean Air Act. Congress could directly disapprove the rule defining CO2 as a "pollutant." Or, it could add a short section right next to the CAA's "Definitions" section that said something like this: "Considering that in Massachusetts v. EPA et al., 549 U.S. 497 (2007), the Supreme Court of the U.S. interpreted section 201 of this Act to include carbon dioxide in its definition of the term "pollutant," Congress expressly intends that no part of this Act be interpreted to define carbon dioxide as a pollutant.
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 62
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/12/2009 2:49:31 PM
Paul I have 2 chain saws. I always cracked up because "they" now fine you for driving off raod in the desert. What's the prob? Are we going to run out of oxygen if we kill a sage brush or two?
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 63
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/12/2009 4:05:58 PM
Skooch, do you really think using CA as an example for anything is a good idea right now? Really, think about that just a little bit more. CA is imploding from such a heavy burden. Good grief, how blind can anyone really be?
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 64
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/12/2009 4:26:44 PM
Skooch the gas here is a lot higher than it is elsewhere right now. Businesses and people have moved out faster than they have moved in for a very long time.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 65
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/12/2009 4:53:47 PM
With any luck the cap and trade will result in a bunch of self-loathing lefties snuffing themselves out. Come to think of it maybe Obumbler is a right wing trick to trick dems into taking the koola aid, you know that anyone with a thumble's full of brains is not buying this jive.
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 66
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/12/2009 7:40:54 PM
Uh and guess what. The same econazis that want to cover up cellphone towers have those stupid windmills all over the hills in the Mojave desert and the Palm Springs desert areas. They are even suggesting that people have one in their own back yard. They want to shut down all kinds of roads to save the environment for future generations, but they want to put up those huge solar panels and windmills all over the place. It personally makes me quite livid, knowing they are the ones responsible for us not being able to build modern refineries to handle the shale oil that will supply us for over 250 years at the current growth rate and more, not to mention the drilled oil that remains untapped on and off shore in so many places. By the time that even comes close to running out, we will have naturally outgrown it. This is pure insanity.
 GolfCoast
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 67
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/13/2009 3:12:02 PM
So Skooch open the textbook and answer these very basic questions

1. List all the green house gases.
2. list the % each of these greenhouse gases.
3. list the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere in a normal year
4. list the amount that is man made in % and tons
5List the impact of greenhouse gas increase as it correlates to temp risee
6. Explain why the CO2 levels during the maunder minimum
7. what was the amount of CO2 relased during krakatoa? then explain why it was cold following this CO2 rich event
8. plot sunspots to temperatures for the past 1200 years


lastly tell us the "correct or normal temperature? When you admit to being stumped, go ask your teachers, when they are stumped go ask Al Gore. When he is stumped go ask a real climatologist such as Fred Singer or Richard Lindzen MIT who actually can answer these questions.

Until you can adress these type of questions you're just a dopey kid programmed by a school system serving it's own interests to create proles.
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 68
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/13/2009 4:31:07 PM
Book smart is at the lowest level of the totem pole and hardly reliable for anything other than believing books are right just because they have a cover or came from a school. Wiki is more reliable than text books by far.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 69
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Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/13/2009 5:50:51 PM

Match, do you have any comment to contribute here?


Nothing other than what I posted in #79 and #104. It's paved the way to regulating CO2 without Congress' approval, true. But Congress has the final say on just about everything.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 70
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Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/13/2009 6:28:47 PM

whether CO2 is a greenhouse gas or not


Everyone knows CO2's a greenhouse gas (although a much less important one than water vapor). But the question is whether the Supreme Court's 2007 decision that the Clean Air Act's definition of "pollutant" can include CO2 makes any sense. Why not make oxygen next? For the 37 years of the CAA's existence, EPA had never claimed the authority to regulate CO2 as a pollutant. And Congress can easily prevent it from doing that now.

I think it has to, but I have no idea if the votes are there. The idea that unelected, almost unaccountable bureaucrats are to have the power to regulate the entire economy of the U.S.--and that's exactly what the power to regulate CO2 gives them--should shock all of us. That is not representative government. It is tyranny. And this president is encouraging it. Shame on him, and on the five members of the Court who tortured the words of the Clean Air Act to get the result they wanted. Millions of Americans will soon realize what they've done, and I doubt they'll forgive it.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 71
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/14/2009 8:28:49 AM

I think it has to, but I have no idea if the votes are there. The idea that unelected, almost unaccountable bureaucrats are to have the power to regulate the entire economy of the U.S.--and that's exactly what the power to regulate CO2 gives them--should shock all of us. That is not representative government. It is tyranny. And this president is encouraging it.


Wait till they get a hold of Health Care

Ya I follow the crazy one but this is exactly what Glenn Beck is screaming from the mountain top about.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 72
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Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/14/2009 10:07:11 PM
^^^^^Remember that it takes a two-thirds majority vote of the Senate to ratify a treaty, anyway. I don't know about the Treasury Dept. position, but Congress has to vote on the funds it needs. That's what's so obnoxious about the "czar" positions Obama created. If the president can create and fund new offices, the officers he appoints to them are almost unaccountable to the people.
 fzrhusker
Joined: 10/8/2005
Msg: 73
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/15/2009 7:52:58 AM
Polar Bears 1985, 5400
Polar Bears 2009, 25,000

What they are not telling you is the satellite that measured the north pole for melting had a glitch in it and was off by 5,000 square miles.
Please comment Mr Gore
 Gogetter56
Joined: 9/27/2008
Msg: 74
Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/15/2009 8:13:18 AM
All I know is this is mind boggling. The whole world seems to have bought into this global warming thing. Hysteria rules over logic and AG knows that. What is scary is the impact it will have on slowing down the progress of the industrial age or whatever you call the times we live in. Cleaning up smog and polution is one thing, but this? This is complete insanity on a global scale.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 75
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Cap and Trade and Global Warming
Posted: 12/15/2009 8:24:51 AM

the change is remaking America into a country that is for the president by the president.


jd, I agree that's what he's trying to do, but the only place a president has a very free hand is in foreign policy. He wouldn't be able to do most of these things without control of both Houses of Congress. President Obama can veto laws, but he can't make them.

I think his presidency may be riding on this health reform bill, and I don't think he's going to get what he wants. Unless this administration does something very dramatic and popular--and it's hard to see what that would be--Mr. Obama's support is going to keep slipping. His popularity rating now stands at about 45%, and 60% of the people oppose this health bill.

Next fall, I think those numbers are going to mean the Democrats lose a whole bunch of seats in Congress. The result of every special election we've had, state and federal, suggest that. Without that support, none of Mr. Obama's pipe dreams is going to go anywhere--and neither is he.
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