Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  >      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 12
view profile
History
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?Page 2 of 3    (1, 2, 3)

I'm more concerned with our overpopulation of the planet.
We can probably sustain 11 billion at the threshold of starvation, if the US cuts its squandering of resources by- oh, half?
 Thunderscribe
Joined: 12/23/2007
Msg: 13
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/7/2009 10:23:38 AM
It isn't just starvation. It's everything from water consumption to pollution of the atmosphere.

As for the U.S., we do squander resources, but it's the "developing" countries like India and China with their HUGE populations that are leaving the U.S. far behind when it comes to waste. Their resource consumption is increasing exponentially each year, while use in the U.S. is actually shrinking.

Then of course are the large populations in the third world. My concern there is as a "disease garden". New variations of nasty things are developing in those populations as we speak.

Also, you have to wonder about the CO2 exhalation from almost 7 billion people.
Funny, the environmentalists seem to overlook that particular in their musings and calculations.

No, for me, "end-of-the-world" will likely be from a worldly source like overpopulation.
 fortran
Joined: 2/21/2004
Msg: 15
view profile
History
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/7/2009 2:13:30 PM
November of this year, a satellite is being launched which will be able to see this supposed dwarf, if it exists. The reason to put infra-red telescopes in cold places, is that infra-red is basically heat. Putting an optical telescope somewhere sunny is not a good idea either, which is why they do most of their work at night. The permanent shadows at the south Pole of the Moon will be quite nice for infra-red telescopy.
 Thunderscribe
Joined: 12/23/2007
Msg: 16
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/7/2009 2:23:24 PM
fortran,

Now there's a machine language I haven't thought of in quite some time. (laugh)
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 17
view profile
History
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/7/2009 3:28:44 PM
It is well known by main stream astronomers that something big is perturbing the orbits of Uranus and Neptune but they did not know where to look for it, until now

Please substantiate this. Looks more like an appeal to authority fallacy, and lacking any such authority, a lie. Neptune was discovered because it disturbs the orbit of Uranus. Likewise, Pluto's discovery is at least partly due to its effect on Neptune.

This planet / brown dwarf star

Doesn't exist. This would be an object more massive than Jupiter. Pluto is much smaller than Earth, and was discovered long ago because of its gravitational influences. A massive object like this would leave no shortage of evidence of its presence. The evidence is missing, so's the object.

was known of in ancient times and is documented by the Sumarians as a body with a 3,600 year elliptical orbit around the sun.

Please substantiate. Don't cite Sitchin or his disciples - they do not qualify as authorities. Sitchin deliberately mistranslates Sumerian to spin a story for which there is no actual evidence. On top of the basic flaw of bad translation are a stack of logical fallacies and conclusions or assumptions which are not supported by any physical evidence.

The arrival of this planet / star back into the inner solar system has profound implications for us around 2012

This is the strongest argument AGAINST such an object existing. Gravity doesn't discriminate, and with such a short year for this object, there would be NO planets with stable orbits, and likely no life on this planet. Not to mention that such an odd orbit, and a reputed approach only 3 years away, the effects would be easily observed already, and the object itself would be visible to the naked eye.

Try drawing a map of the solar system, and try to make it more or less to scale [tough, given the dimensions]. Include this fanciful object and all the outer planets. Assuming all objects have been in orbit for more or less billions of years, we can assume they travel at more or less the same speed, and we can consider time to be equal to distance [3600 years x Xkph x 24h/d x 365.25 d/y = km]. Obviously, the orbit will have a circumference of 3600 years, and Earth will have an orbit of one year. The inner solar system is everything closer than Jupiter, which means this object will be no further out than Jupiter in three years. Jupiter has an orbit of 12 years. If this object is set to arrive in three years, that means that *right now*, it should be no farther away than Jupiter's orbit plus 3x Earth's orbital circumference. I'm no astronomer, but this should be reasonably close to accurate for the purpose of this thread. I'll let someone else actually do the math, and then explain why this object exists, yet is invisible and has no gravitational influence.

How come NASA has the right telescope, in the right place ,at the right time,

As explained above: cold air, prolonged darkness, little pollution, and a relatively stationary polar position. Antarctica is also uniquely isolated - by being a polar island continent, both weather patterns and ocean currents are essentially circular, and shut off outside influences. That limits penetration by pollutants, and prevents warming influences. As for "right place" and "right time", that only applies if you can actually demonstrate BOTH that mythical object is on that trajectory, AND it will be there in three years. The evidence is first that time frame is wrong, and second, that the time frame is irrelevant because the object doesn't even exist.

On other matters...

Planets more distant from the sun do not follow our seasons. Spring is just begining on Jupiter, and summer will not end there until 2015. Mars has a year and seasons roughly twice as long as Earth's. Spring began in December 2007, and fall began in December 2008. Mars also experiences global dust storms which significantly influence temperatures. Coincidences of warming on other planets are largely that - coincidence. Activity of the sun is another obvious factor. There is no evidence of another mythical planet having an influence on this, nor is there reason to expect it [ie., no cause for heating].

Here's a handy chart of planetary seasons:
http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/interplanetaryseasons.html
and another just for Mars:
http://www.planetary.org/explore/topics/mars/calendar.html

Some fairly simple and simplistic math:
where R=Earth's average orbital radius, which is 1 astronomical unit
and J=Jupiter's average orbital radius
and, just for the heck of it, we'll call the mythical object's present distance from the sun "N"

R=1au
J=5au
1 year = 2piR =~6au

N=3years+J=18au+5au=23au

That's roughly where this object should be right now.
Saturn's distance...9au, Uranus is 19au, Neptune is 30au. So it's bigger than Jupiter and only a bit further than Uranus [which is smaller than Jupiter].
 Thunderscribe
Joined: 12/23/2007
Msg: 18
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/7/2009 3:49:43 PM
Frog,
Shame on you for bringing ACTUAL science into this discussion.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 19
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/7/2009 5:24:43 PM
Frog O, you can use my favourite telescope spot anytime you want. You rock! But I would correct you on one minor point: the so-called "perturbations" that pointed to the existence of a ninth planet beyond Neptune were actually illusory. It's one of the great coincidences in science that Pluto was even discovered in the location that Planet X was supposed to be.

When they did the math again, based on modern understanding of the masses and motions of Neptune and Uranus, the "inconsistencies" in the math disappeared.

Seriously, though...the fact that anyone can miss the point that something the size of Jupiter in the outer solar system would have been "missed" is stunning in its complete ignorance of the science of astronomy.

There's plenty of reasons to study the sky in infrared that have nothing to do with "Planet X" or "Nibiru" or whatever you want to call it.
 fortran
Joined: 2/21/2004
Msg: 22
view profile
History
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/8/2009 8:58:52 AM
The searching I did yesterday vis a vis this mythical dwarf had it being outside the outer Oort Cloud, about 25% of the distance to Proxima Centuri. This infra-red telescopy mission going up in November should be able to see a brown dwarf that close. If it is in a stable orbit out there, I can't see it suddenly changing in the next 3 years to do something nasty. Besides, it would probably still take a while to get here.

WRT the trivia comment about where my nickname comes from.
In terms of computer languages, FORTRAN will always be the best language for number crunching. It won't be FORTRAN-IV, but it will be FORTRAN of some kind. However, it is not a machine language, or at least not any more so than C.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 23
view profile
History
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/8/2009 9:52:33 AM

Please substantiate this.

Still waiting. Can we assume it won't be forthcoming?

Just to clarify, any object with an elliptical orbit travels much faster at its closest approach to the sun, its the sling shot effect and its speed would be much greater than any other planet so these calculations are way off

This is true. Yet we have no problem locating and identifying little balls of ice which follow such trajectories. It's not going to park somewhere and then come rushing in - for 3600 years, it must be moving. Pluto has a "year" of 248 years. Sedna has a year of 10500 years. These are tiny, and we haven't had much problem finding them. Your mass is larger than Jupiter has no gravitational influences and a year much shorter than Sedna. Why is it invisible and undetectable?

I also don't see any more accurate calculations, nor do I see an explanation of where all this invisible mass is.

A brown dwarf companion star to the sun is not a far fetched idea at all as most stars we see are also binary, very difficult to detect also, especially if it is out of the plane of the elliptic and approaching from the deep south.

It's a far-fetched idea for this solar system. The mass and orbital path demand that it be observable. The mass isn't detectable, and the past influences of this mass are absent.

Ancient astronomers knew a lot about our solar system, this is a fact, but it is brushed under the carpet as modern scientists do not want to deal with it

They knew about the visible planets. Beyond those [literally]...
Sitchin. Op cit. Pura merde.

As far as NASA is concerned dont hold your breath when it comes to detection, only a few days ago a mass of rock flew past the Earth, very close, and all they said was ' there it goes ' !

Apples and bricks. A rock is a far cry from failed star. There are many asteroids, and most of them are quite small. Detecting and identifying them by their gravitational effects is highly unlikely. Without significant water, atmosphere, or internal heat, they also won't be readily detectable by heat or light. Part of the reason for NEAR is the fact that these objects are hard to find and are a direct threat. Your mythical object has internal heat, albedo, and...um..."astronomical" mass.

We'd love to see your evidence, but I'm sure it won't be coming, since none of these claims originate from any scientific source.
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 26
view profile
History
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/8/2009 12:02:13 PM
So, to summarize, you have no sources outside of Sitchin and his ilk? Thanks for coming out; it's not like you've established any credibility so far, so you've none to lose :)
 FrogO_Oeyes
Joined: 8/21/2005
Msg: 29
view profile
History
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/8/2009 12:51:55 PM
Fragmentary=non-existant?

You still haven't offered one solitary piece of evidence, much less the massive amounts of more or less simultaneous events necessitated by this scenario. If it arrives in three years, it departs just as quickly. Which civilizations? Which ecosystems? I'll make it easy for you, 3600 years ago is about 1588 BC. Assuming this to just be a ball-park number, let's have a look at historical events [from answers.com: http://www.answers.com/topic/year-1700-bce]. Note - Wrangel Island is in the Arctic Ocean of Siberia. It wasn't tropical:

c. 1700 BC — The last species of mammoth became extinct on Wrangel Island.
c. 1700 BC: Indus Valley Civilization comes to an end but is continued by the Cemetery H culture
1700 BC — Belu-bani became the King of Assyria.
c. 1700 BC — beginning of the Late Minoan period on Crete
c. 1700 BC — Lila-Ir-Tash started to rule the Elamite Empire.
c. 1698 BC — Lila-Ir-Tash the ruler of the Elamite Empire died. Temti-Agun I started to rule the Elamite Empire.
1691 BC — Belu-bani, the King of Assyria died.
c. 1690 BC — Temti-Agun I, the ruler of the Elamite Empire, died. Tan-Uli started to rule the Elamite Empire.
1690 BC — Libaia became the King of Assyria.
1680s BC — Egypt: Start of Sixteenth Dynasty.
1680s BC — Egypt: Development of leavened bread (date approximate).
1673 BC — Sharma-Adad I became the King of Assyria.
1661 BC — Iptar-Sin became the King of Assyria.
1650s BC — Egypt: Start of Seventeenth Dynasty.
c. 1655 BC — Tan-Uli, the ruler of the Elamite Empire, died.
1649 BC — Bazaia became the King of Assyria.
1648s BC — Egypt: Start of Fifteenth Dynasty.
1633 BC — End of the Thirteenth and Fourteenth dynasties of Egypt, start of the Fifteenth dynasty.
1627 BC – Beginning of a cooling of world climate lasting several years recorded in tree-rings all over the world.[1] It might have been caused by the Minoan eruption of Thera[2] or the Avellino eruption of Mount Vesuvius.[3]
1625 BC — Samsu-Ditana becomes King of Babylon (middle chronology).
1621 BC — Lullaia becomes the King of Assyria.
1620 BC — Mursili I becomes King of the Hittite Empire (middle chronology).
1615 BC — Shu-Ninua became the King of Assyria.
1601 BC — Sharma-Adad II became the King of Assyria.
1600s BC — Egypt: End of Fourteenth Dynasty.
1600s BC — The creation of one of the oldest surviving astronomical documents, a copy of which was found in the Babylonian library of Ashurbanipal: a 21-year record of the appearances of Venus (which the early Babylonians called Nindaranna).
1600s BC — The end of the Indus Valley civilization.
1600s BC — The overthrow of the ruling Amorite dynasty in Aleppo, Syria.
1600s BC — The date of the earliest discovered rubber balls.
1600s BC — Egypt conquered by Asian tribes known as the Hyksos — see History of ancient Israel and Judah.
1600s BC - Early Mycenaen culture: weapons, Cyclopaean walls and chariots.
Unetice culture
Development of leavened bread in Egypt.
Development of the windmill in Persia.

Significant persons
Jie , The last ruler of Xia Dynasty, ruled China for 52 years until 1600 BC according to the Xia Shang Zhou Chronology Project.

Deaths
1695 BC — Sarah, wife of Abraham, according to the Hebrew Calendar
1686 BC — Hammurabi (short chronology)
1684 BC — Heremon, Irish legend
1677 BC — Terah, father of Abraham, according to the Hebrew Calendar
1664 BC — Arpachshad, son of Ham, son of Noah, according to the Hebrew Calendar
1637 BC — Abraham according to Jewish calculations. (2,123 years after biblical creation)
1634 BC — Salah, son of Arpachshad, according to the Hebrew Calendar
1602 BC — Shem, son of Noah, according to the Hebrew Calendar

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_century_BC):

1595 BC — Sack of Babylon by the Hittite king Mursilis I.
1570 BC - Cretan palaces at Knossos and other centres flourish despite disasters.
1567 BC — Egypt: End of Fifteenth Dynasty, end of Sixteenth Dynasty, end of Seventeenth Dynasty, start of Eighteenth Dynasty.
1550s BC — The city of Mycenae, located in the northeast Peloponnesus, comes to dominate the rest of Achaea, giving its name to Mycenaean civilization.
1556 BC — Cecrops builds or rebuilds Athens following the great flood of Deucalion and the end of the Golden age. He becomes the first of several Kings of Athens whose life account is considered part of Greek mythology.
1556 BC* — Shang Dynasty of China established.
1550 BC — End of Seventeenth dynasty of Egypt, start of the Eighteenth Dynasty upon the coronation of Ahmose I (Low Chronology).
1530 BC — End of the First Dynasty of Babylon and the start of the Kassite Dynasty — see History of Iraq.
1525 BC — End of Fifteenth dynasty of Egypt.
1512 BC (approx.): the flood of Deucalion, according to O'Flaherty, Augustine, Eusebius, and Isidore (bishop of Seville).
1506 BC — Cecrops, legendary King of Athens, dies after a reign of 50 years. Having survived his own son, he is succeeded by Cranaus.
1504 BC — Egypt started to conquer Nubia and the Levant.
1500s BC — Vedic Civilization begins in India
1500s BC Many scholars date early parts of the Rig Veda to roughly the 16th century.
1500s BC - Queen Hatsheput in Egypte (18 dynasty).
1500s BC — The element Mercury has been discovered in Egyptian tombs dating from this decade.
1500s BC — Settlers from Crete, Greece move to Miletus, Turkey.
1500s BC — Early traces of Maya civilization developing in Belize.
1500s BC — The Phoenicians develop an alphabet — see Timeline of communication technology.
1500s BC — Earliest evidence (from archaeological excavations) of a settlement at Aylesbury, England[1].
1500 BC — Indo-Aryan migration is often dated to the 17th to 16th centuries.
Unetice culture.

[edit] Significant persons
King Cheng Tang of Shang of China, first ruler of Shang Dynasty, ruled China for 29 years since 1600 BC according to the Xia Shang Zhou Chronology Project.
1597 BC — Aaron born to Amram and his wife Jochebed (traditional date).
Kamose, last Pharaoh of the 17th Dynasty of Egypt (1575 or 1573 BC–1550 BC).
Ahmose I, Pharaoh and founder of the 18th Dynasty of Egypt (1550 BC–1525 BC).


Just for larks, let's go back another 3600 years, since this is supposedly an orbital cycle (from answers.com - http://www.answers.com/5100s%20BC):

c. 6000 BC — The Mehrgarh culture reaches it height c. 6000 BC. The Mehrgarh site is one of the most important Neolithic sites in the world. It is located in present-day Pakistan (Baluchistan Province).
c. 6000 BC — The entire 6th Millennium was a part of the Holocene climatic optimum (so were the 4th, 5th and 7th Millenniums). This was a warm period also known as the Atlantic period. This period was characterized by minimal glaciation and high sea levels. (McEvedy)
c. 6000 BC — The Copper Age comes to the Fertile Crescent. (Roux 1980) First use of copper in Middle East. (Bailey 1973)
c. 6000 BC — Fully Neolithic agriculture has spread through Anatolia to the Balkans. (1967 McEvedy)
c. 6000 BC — Beginning of Neolithic Yangshao culture in south-central China . Somewhere in this expanse of time, they invent the earliest pictographs of Chinese writing. (Atlas of China, 1983)
c. 6000 BC — Equids disappear from the Americas.
c. 6000 BC — Junglefowl kept in India.
c. 5900 BC — Prehistoric Vinca culture emerges on the shores of lower Danube
c. 5800 BC — Beginning of the Dadiwan culture in China.
c. 5800 BC — The Hassuna Period in Mesopotamia , with the earliest version of stamp-seals. (Roux 1980)
c. 5760 BC — The volcano Puy-de-Dôme in France erupts.
c. 5677 BC — Cataclysmic volcanic explosion of 12,000-foot (3,700 m) high Mount Mazama creates Oregon's Crater Lake[1] when the resulting caldera fills with water. With a Volcanic Explosivity Index of 7, it remains the largest single Holocene eruption in history of the Cascade Range.
c. 5600 BC — Beginning of the desertification of North Africa, which ultimately lead to the creation of the Sahara desert. It's possible this process pushed some natives into migrating to the region of the Nile in the east, thereby laying the groundwork for the rise of Egyptian civilization.
c. 5600 BC — The Red Paint People become established in the region from present-day Labrador to New York state.
5509 BC — The Byzantine calendar dates creation to 1 September of this year.
c. 5500 BC — Beginning of the Xinle culture in China.
c. 5500 BC — Agriculture started in Ancient Egypt.
c. 5500 BC — Predynastic period (Neolithic) starts in Ancient Egypt (other date is 4350 BC).
c. 5450 BC — Volcano Hekla eruption.
c. 5400 BC — Beginning of the Zhaobaogou culture in China.
c. 5400 BC — Irrigation and the beginning of the Sumerian civilization in Southern Iraq.
c. 5400 BC — Watson Brake mound complex constructed in present-day Louisiana. (Correction: 5400 BP, or 3400 BC)
c. 5300 BC — Beginning of the Beixin culture in China.
c. 5200 BC — Beginning of human inhabitation and settlements in Malta.
c. 5000 BC — Beginning of the Hemudu culture in China.
c. 5000 BC — Beginning of the Daxi culture in China.
c. 5000 BC — Beginning of the Majiabang culture in China.
c. 5000 BC — Beginning of the Yangshao culture in China.
c. 5000 BC — Farming reached central and north Europe.

Environmental changesHolocene epoch

This box: view • talk • edit
↑ Pleistocene
Holocene
Preboreal (10 ka – 9 ka),
Boreal (9 ka – 8 ka),
Atlantic (8 ka – 5 ka),
Subboreal (5 ka – 2.5 ka)
Subatlantic (2.5 ka – present)
Main article: Atlantic (period)
c. 7000 BC — Beginning the Holocene climatic optimum
c. 5600 BC — According to the Black Sea deluge theory, the Black Sea floods with salt water. Some 3000 cubic miles (12,500 km³) of salt water is added, significantly expanding it and transforming it from a fresh-water landlocked lake into a salt water sea.

Inventions, discoveries, introductions
c. 6000 BC — Cycladic people started to use a coarse, poor-quality local clay to make a variety of objects.
c. 6000 BC — Brick building was taking place at Çatalhöyük, Turkey.[2]
Agriculture appears in the valley of the Nile.
Rice cultivated in Asia.
Plough invented.
c. 6000 BC–5000 BC — Wine is created for the first time in Persia.
c. 5000 BC — Agriculture began in the Americas perhaps this early, in complete isolation from the Old World.[2]
Artifacts of stone were supplemented by those of metal, and the crafts of basketry, pottery, weaving (Africa).
Dead were buried in a fetal position, surrounded by the burial offerings and artifacts, facing west (Africa).
Decorated, black-topped clay pots and vases; bone and ivory combs, figurines, and tableware, are found in great numbers (Africa).
Jewelry of all types and materials (Africa).
Objects began to be made not only with a function, but also with an aesthetic value. (Africa)
Organized, permanent settlements focused around agriculture. (Africa)


Target dates: 1588 and 5188 BC. I'm not seeing anything remotely close to a pattern of cataclysm here. Want to point it out to us?


The Planet X theory is plausable and it is something we could have missed !

It's not plausible. It's supposed to cause disasters because of it's massive size. So where is that gravity now, apart from immeasurable?
 VVendy
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 31
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/8/2009 5:56:21 PM
Several groups have noted 2012 as a special year it is the year that France and America hold elections. The world is round is all we know for sure all esle we need to explore more.
 Thunderscribe
Joined: 12/23/2007
Msg: 33
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/8/2009 7:49:10 PM
I admit it.
I'm a Buttholemorph from the planet Crouton.
In 2012, my people will invade your planet.
We will drain your planet of it's most precious resources: Internet Porn and nachos!
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 34
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/9/2009 4:41:22 PM
Well, this "mystery" is quickly solved. Give me some coordinates and I'll see if I can get someone to point a telescope in the direction of this thing. At three years out, it should be roughly the distance to Uranus and so clearly visible. After all, Uranus is clearly visible as a disc in even a modest three inch telescope.

Most amateur scopes are up in the 8" and up and Australia and South America have active amateur astronomy communities. Not to mention significant swaths of the southern United States that have clear views of large chunks of southern sky. Someone must know where it is and what it's orbit is if they know its perihelion distance.

It can't be seen? Hogwash. Before trying that line, bone up on your astronomy a little better. Sedna (or was it Eris?) was spotted in backyard telescopes within hours of published orbital parameters. Something the diameter of Jupiter (or larger, since it is supposed to be a brown dwarf), even at Uranus' distance would be clearly visible even to the naked eye. I saw Hale-Bopp two years before its arrival.

Again, a little actual knowledge goes a long way in assessing the likelihood of something like this. You think something with this kind of mass is only going to cause a "pole shift" for Earth? Try again. If Earth isn't actually ejected from the solar system, it's orbit is likely to be significantly altered. Then Earth itself is then pummeled by debris knocked out of orbit from the Oort and Kuiper Belt regions as well as the asteroid belt, since that is where it comes to perihelion. In short, Earth would have become undeniably uninhabitable several orbits of this thing ago.

By the way, did you know the asteroid belt has many "families" of asteroids segregated their compositional types. They're also in definite orbital resonances with Jupiter that took thousands if not millions of years to settle out. How I wish people would learn a little of the science before they take up the banner of this pseudoscientific nonsense.
 Thunderscribe
Joined: 12/23/2007
Msg: 36
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/9/2009 5:46:39 PM
Good grief.
Next you'll be bring Atlantis, Ur, Lemuria, and Tir-Na-Nog into this discussion.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 38
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/9/2009 6:23:25 PM
I would like to start by saying if main stream scientists come up with a theory of the universe that requires the entire contents to fit inside a matchbox, the word psuedoscience springs to mind ,it is a totally insane theory, and one they are virtually declaring as fact !.


*sigh* Okay, let's try this again. First of all, your condemnation of scientists with the moniker "mainstream" is an indication of the sources you are relying on. That's because, when the prophets of this supposed "hidden" knowledge speak of "mainstream science," they're actually talking about true science that relies on empirical data and research rather than fantastical imaginations of what might have been. They've published in peer review papers. They actually "do" the science in a defined, defensible and proveable way. In short, scientists know what they're talking about because they've dedicated themselves to the work they do.

Second, you've clearly half-understood a cosmological evolution concept and, rather than study further, you've dismissed it out of hand. What you're talking about is the earliest nanoseconds of the universe following the Big Bang. The Big Bang is as close to actual fact as one can get. The evidence is everywhere. When you "run the movie" backwards, all of the universe crunches down into an infinitely small point...However, a period of rapid inflation occurred in the first few seconds of the Big Bang. The geometry of the universe is proof of this concept. Look up Inflation. It's not "pseudoscience" although it is somewhat controversial and still under debate. But it does fit the observations. As opposed to what, I would ask you.


The astronomy of ancient Sumaria new(sic) (I think you mean "knew") of all the planets of the solar system in some detail too, they were an advanced culture, but they included another planet which was called the ' planet of the crossing', this crossing is where the debri field of asteroids is,there was a collision there, thats why there are asteroids there ! At its closest approach therefore it is between Mars and Jupiter, still relatively far out, but near enough to cause the effects on Earth I described.


So where's the Sumerian version of the Keck telescope? To "know" of all the planets of the solar system requires more than just looking up. Except for Vesta, which peaks at roughly magnitude 5.9 in brightness, none reach naked eye visibility. It would have taken a truly eagle-eyed early astronomer to see it. The fact there is no reference to it in any ancient texts tells me they didn't. Same thing with Uranus. Neptune never gets higher than 7th magnitude so they definitely didn't know of that one. Nor did they know of Pluto (mag 13.9) or any of the other Trans-neptunian objects. Look up visual magnitude in relating astronomical phenomenon.

The reason for the existence of the asteroid belt is up for debate. The fact that there are clearly iron-dominated bodies, silicate-dominated bodies hints at differentiation in a "parent" body. However, before we go all crazy and say "see, there was a planet there," it's just as possible a body the size of Vesta or Ceres was broken up. However, the entire mass of the asteroid belt is less than that of our moon. That is known by an ongoing census of the main belt.

Also, don't forget that Jupiter has a set of accompanying asteroids at 60 degrees either side of it in its orbit know as "trojans." There's also the Aten and Amor group of asteroids between us and the sun and those that cross our orbit. Most of the major planets may, in fact, have their own "trojans." It's an ongoing search.


Mainstream scientists always come up with things taking billions or millions of years to occur, the truth, this is just a complete guess.


Guess? No. Dynamical modelling. Hard math. And real work. Not sitting around, thinking about how things should be, just honest to god hard work. There's a reason they have those degrees. They worked hard at it. Do scientists always agree with one another? Absolutely not. That's how science progresses.


Take another look, this theory is not far fetched, I firmly believe that the rise of civilisation around 6000 years ago is in reality, humans recovering from cataclism,human civilised history is much longer than this. The nature of this event would definately be kept secret because of its consequences.


And your proof is what? What evidence of significant impacts within the time frame you quote can you point to? How about evidence of disruption. I've given you multiple reasons why this isn't the case. Why haven't you spoken directly to those points?

Kept secret how? I told you how this thing would be clearly visible by now. Why haven't the amateur telescopes of the world taken note. Believe me, there's enough out there scanning the skies. Professionals wouldn't keep quiet of it either. How the heck are you going to keep thousands - hundreds of thousands - quiet about something as significant as a new object orbiting the sun. Indeed, bodies discovered orbiting the sun are announced long before their actual orbital elements are refined. It's the public notification of these objects that lead to follow-up observations that provide those refinements.

Malc, I'd suggest if you're going to discuss astronomy, you study the subject first. You might find the reality far more interesting than the imaginations of those who know nothing of it.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 39
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/9/2009 6:54:07 PM
While we're at it:

Here's news from the website of the South Pole Telescope:

October 10, 2008: Galaxy clusters discovered with the South Pole Telescope.

The first major scientific results from the South Pole Telescope initial survey were released on October 10, 2008. A paper submitted to the Astrophysical Journal and posted on the astro-ph preprint server describes the detection of four distant, massive clusters of galaxies in an initial analysis of South Pole Telescope (SPT) survey data. Three of these galaxy clusters were previously unknown systems and, therefore, represent the first clusters detected in a Sunyaev-Zel'dovich (SZ) effect survey. These first four galaxy clusters are the most significant SZ detections from a subset of the ongoing SPT survey. As such, they serve as a demonstration that SZ surveys, and the SPT in particular, can be an effective means for finding galaxy clusters.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 41
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/10/2009 6:38:01 PM

Yes, but the problem here is the universe does'nt fit inside a matchbox !


Nope, you're right since the universe is clearly larger than a matchbox. A fact attested to by the reality that it is populated by matchboxes aplenty. However, at the earliest moments of the big bang, say at one trillionth of a second, it's actual dimensions would have approached subatomic. However, it experienced a period of rapid expansion, reaching the size of the solar system within perhaps a few seconds - a process called inflation.

Again, I suggest you read up on the latest theories regarding the Big Bang and cosmology before you get too wrapped up in a single concept such as the universe being the size of a matchbox.


I am saying the astronomy of Ancient Sumaria were familiar with all the planets of the solar system, there are schematic tablets surviving that you can see and touch showing this to be the case.


Says who? Who is proclaiming that the Berlin Seal as a map of the solar system, for that is what you are referring to, isn't it? Zeccharia Sitchen, yes. Qualified archaeologists, however, can offer a variety of explanations.


We all know that the Great Pyramids are stunning civil engineering projects that we, only now, are probably capable of reproducing.It is perfectly clear that ancient civilisation were far from primitive. The evidence from the distant past is fragmentary, but then so is our history, even if we go back, say 40 years.The science in this is to find the consistancies throughout world cultures and try to build a framework of our ancestry.Modern genetic scientists are finding populations have collapsed on continents, ancient forests have been found on Antartica,cities are under the sea, the list goes on and on.


You're right on a couple of things...ancient civilizations like the Egyptions, Babylonians, etc, were far from the plodding primitives the likes of, oh, Erik von Daaniken would like us to believe, if only to sell a few more of their books. And, a few cities have been found in the Mediterranean, but those are well established from history and by archaeology. Some of the details remain mysterious, but the destruction of the Minoan civilization, etc., is well documented. No Planet X needed there.

Genetic science is also being used to track migration patterns. However, none of this has anything to do with the topic at hand and constitutes little more than using known facts to base an faulty argument.


I am interested in science and astronomy and ancient history, but I cannot help feel the historic model we are being forced to accept is wide off the mark, and this is not helped when evolution is taught as fact, even though we still cannot hold in our hands one missing link between any species that have ever existed in all the billions of years of the Earth's history.


Actually, this is one of the mistakes a lot of people, including creationists make. That's because all species are transitory. Evolution is a robust theory which has been sufficiently proven to be considered "fact." But if you want to see species in transition, look up the evolution of the horse. Or the whale. Look up archaeopteryx.

Now, to your final question:


South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?


I've offered you the answer. I've also offered a challenge. Since you believe that there is a "brown dwarf" on course for the inner solar system, give me coordinates. I'm sure, in no short order, I can get someone with a telescope in that part of the world to image the area of sky with this brown dwarf that is on its way in. At its distance and size, it should be clearly visible.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 43
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/11/2009 7:56:37 AM
gotcha Malc. Don't confuse you with facts. You're smarter than the rest of us. You haven't been fooled by the lies of "the establishment."

Oh wait a minute:


<div class="quote">The specific co ordinates of Planet X, I cannot give you, it is changing daily, but if I was you I'd ask NASA, they probably will not say anything about it as they have disclosure orders they need to adhere to, but you can try !

Actually, I have two planetarium programs on my computer that give me up to the second R.A and Dec coordinates for comets, asteroids and planets the moment I switch it on. So that first part of your statement is completely erroneous. As for the second part, how about you and a couple of Planet X/Nibiru/Nemesis proponents gather some funds, buy a telescope and start your scanning of the southern sky for this terrible thing you're expecting. Then you will actually be able to laugh at the rest of us gullible fools and say "see, told ya so!"

Speaking of telescopes, how many do you own? I own three. I used to think I had a pretty good grasp on the physics of optics but, if there is something specific you can point other than that you "think" the proportions are off, let me know.

As for Internet sources, I think I'll go to primary sources like science journals and articles by actual scientists doing the science before I start relying on secondary and unvetted sources such as Internet websites. Oddly enough, a lot of these people who are proponents of "alternative" history don't submit their own research - including actual archaeological digs, astrophysical surveys, etc - to peer reviewed journals but go right to book and Internet. I wonder why? Could it be there's money in human gullibility?

*sigh* RIP critical thinking.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 45
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/11/2009 11:48:17 AM
Malc, who said anything about an official observatory? How about a few of the thousands of amateur astronomers with access to the southern sky? Surely those like you who believe there is an object three years from perihelion can scrape together a few bucks to pick up the right equipment. I can even make a few suggestions. An object the size of a brown dwarf at that distance would be easily visible in a 10" to 12" 'scope equipped with a digital imager. C'mon, take up the challenge. Show the "establishment" you and your fellow believers won't be silenced. Show us the money.

Frankly, I don't know of any scientists who are "afraid" of objective truth. However, I do know that people can be prone to hold to a particular point of view, regardless of what evidence to the contrary is placed before them. That includes scientists and laypeople.

As for the "United States-sized" telescope, it would easily be able to see planets in orbit around the nearest stars. However, the question was not about brightness but resolution. The fact that you are confusing the two only shows that you don't understand the point. Sorry to be harsh, but those are the facts. Do your research.
 Bluesman2008
Joined: 4/2/2008
Msg: 47
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/11/2009 12:13:45 PM

and certainly seed vaults to try and rebuild ecosystems


Seed vaults have been built and thoroughly stocked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard#Seed_Vault


Main article: Svalbard Global Seed Vault

The Norwegian government has built a "doomsday" seed bank to store seeds from as many of the world's crop varieties and their botanical wild relatives as possible. The bank was created by hollowing out a 120-meter tunnel on Spitsbergen cut into rock with a natural temperature of ?6?C, refrigerating it to ?18?C, and then storing seeds donated by the 1,400 crop repositories maintained by countries around the world. The vault has top security blast-proof doors and two airlocks. The number of seeds stored depends on the number of countries participating in the project. The point of this project is to prevent the diversity of agricultural crops currently stored (typically in the form of seed) in seed banks from becoming extinct as a result of accident, mismanagement, equipment failure, war or natural disaster, or due to a regional or global catastrophe, such as global warming.[/quot
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 48
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/11/2009 3:52:19 PM

I really dont think amateur telescopes have a hope of picking up a dark star yet, they are often shrouded in dust apart from being very dim objects.


Which is part of the problem. You don't think this or that can happen but you have nothing to support your assertion. Asteroids can be as dark as coal and yet they reflect sunlight very effectively. Dust clouds can reflect sunlight. As a matter of fact, if you've never heard of zodiacal light or the gegenschein, that's just interplanetary dust reflecting sunlight.

Nothing is darker than space itself. Therefore, anything seen against that backdrop is going to standout. Especially something with several times the mass of Jupiter. In fact, if it's in the process of fusing deuterium, which brown dwarfs will do for a brief period, then it would show up quite well. So would a body beyond the orbit of Uranus but with the diameter of Jupiter.

Of course, I could just be a part of the big, bad conspiracy sent here to keep the truth hidden. Stuff like that is a whole lot miore fun to believe.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 50
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/11/2009 6:41:20 PM
And so the discussion goes full circle. In other words, you don't want to know why you might be wrong, you're just certain you're right and no facts to the contrary are going to get you to believe otherwise.

Belief is a wonderful thing, until it blinds you to alternative explanations. Of course, binary sytems aren't outrageous. I've seen countless examples. However, please tell me how these perturbations of Uranus and Neptune are occuring. Because every time I use one of my astronomy programs to create a chart for their location, it's very accurate. I have no problem locating either planet.

Why would Uranus and Neptune be special? We would be aware of perturbations across the solar system since all the planets follow orbits along the same plane. That includes a fleet of spacecraft. The object you're describing would be coming at right angles to the solar system. And yet my computer has been very successful at locating asteroids and comets too.


think NASA have found it, its existence known back in the 1980's, the implications of this however would have to be kept quite as long as possible.


Operative words in your statements are "believe" and "think." I've given you ideas how to find out for sure. Bottom line, the South Pole Telescope is being used for cosmological research. Nothing more. Hell, if they wanted to track a single object at right angles through the solar system, they wouldn't need to spend millions of dollars setting up a meter-class scope at the south pole when a 16-inch off-the-shelf telescope in Chile would accomplish the same feat.

However, conspiracy theories are more fun, aren't they. They don't require any proof and make one feel very smart and special. "Prove it isn't true" seems to be the default position of conspiracy theory fans.
 GGarbo
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 53
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 3/16/2009 2:55:50 PM
The ancient astronomers had detailed knowledge of all the planets visible or not, they knew the colours, orientation and moons of planets rediscovered by our modern pioneer astronomers.The evidence, is notably from ancient Sumarian text.From a scientific interest it would surely warrant unbias investigation as to the other things they tell us, these civilizations after all ,when it came to civil engineering, were clearly advanced.

I'm all for studying ancient knowledge. So are a lot of people, that's how come there are whole fields dedicated to this research along with comparing it with the scientific research that is actually going on that doesn't relate to the cycles of the stars (although that is going on too) but hard data so we know its not just coincidence. If you think there is no research or unbiased investigation going on, you aren't looking...you are just reading conspiracy theories and assuming there are no unbiased opinions out there...when there are.

One scientist studying El Nino's has run across a coincidence (if he has his dates right which we are not sure yet) that show that all these large structures you see that humans have built (which were all built in a relatively short time span when it comes to humanity's existence) happened to occur just as new weather patterns were hitting our planet and warming it up. This "could" infer a connection between climate and our development. Until we can even see if there is a connection, right now research is being done to confirm those El Nino dates because without that, we can't even determine if there is a coincidence to even investigate to see if there is a connection. It is however, interesting to think about because if it did turn out to be true it would indicate our development has a lot more to do with climate than we realized....making it more predictable.

If this is the case, then this would give more weight to ancient cultures who tracked these events, using a method of time keeping that was perfect for doing it. It is likely that this would have developed more in depth though after written language came into being but there could have been oral traditions that we are unaware of.

It's theorized at one point the dark side of the moon faced us until a whole wack of asteroids flew into our orbit, smacking the moon, making the moon spin slowly for a tens of thousands of years and this same asteroid bombardment is a likely culprit for what started life on our planet. Who knows what impact that had on us and perhaps that is why we have such a connection to the moon.

Maybe not as exciting as Planet Nibiru, but still pretty ground breaking stuff.

NOBODY IS HIDING THIS INFORMATION FROM YOU....YOU CAN FIND IT ON THE INTERNET!

With what we know about ancient cultures, there are some things they could have "possibly" known about or felt the impacts of (so it would be recorded on their solar, lunar, or solar-lunar calendars) to try to see if there was a pattern:
1. Pole Shift
2. Global Warming/Cooling Cycles
3. Weather patterns such as El Nino, La Nina, and their big bro the Pacific Decadal Oscillation
4. Water levels
5. Periods of drought
6. Periods of more moisture raising the level of a disease threat
7. Anything that impacts the moon because many of the calendars during those times were based on the moon (there is/was a belief that phases of the moon have impact on human behavior)
8. An active period in the sun
9. Higher instances of hurricanes and storms
10. If the Northern Lights Varied
....the list goes on.

Because of their interest in patterns, they may have also developed some things that became lost knowledge like:
1. A model for population growth based on climate
2. A way to apply that to human development, based on climate
3. How to predict massive changes in planetary climate

Whether the alignments had an actual impact, that's anyone's guess but we know they used it as a time gauge for what was basically early science. We don't know all what they could predict with those calendars but we do know that they were initially developed for survival purposes and to predict environmental things....not your personal horoscope. So it could be that they stumbled across patterns that we just were too busy doing other things to notice because we have lived in a relatively stable climate for so long.

Our ancient ancestors got to live through climate changes that we are just starting to feel the flip side of the coin of. If they did clue into these natural patterns, they could actually know things and predict things about our future because that's what we are trying to work towards. We think it "can't be done" without our scientific instruments but much of this could have been done with diligent observation and time keeping.

So much to be fascinated about... it's a shame really that people don't take more of an interest in what we actually know, can prove, or have legitimate theories on.
 Buanann
Joined: 6/16/2012
Msg: 54
South Pole Infra Red Telescope, what is it tracking ?
Posted: 7/7/2012 8:06:15 AM
What say you now? that not one but three planets have been spotted since January 2012.

In fact, the historical record is pretty much shite and any academic knows it. Maybe try using the actual record instead of wikepedia and the like. There are 1,000's of archaeological finds to support some of what is said on these threads.

Interesting how you ommitted the rise of monatomic gold use and the end of the Star Fire period in your history re-cap above. a critical period if you want to understand how religiousness took hold and has dam near done us in.

Cheers and enjoy the sky as our history is revealed in living color right in your own backyard. :)
Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  >