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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more mo      Home login  
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 la_mom
Joined: 10/26/2006
Msg: 42
GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.Page 5 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
I'm also sick and tired of ppl bashing auto workers for being paid more than "the chick at the grocery store busting her ass for minimum wage." Maybe the real issue is that she's not being fairly compensated. Rather than expecting us to work for minimum wage because she does.....just maybe we should examine why so many ppl in this country are being paid salaries that are impossible to live on. I don't think the solution is that nobody deserves to make a good living because others are being taken advantage of....

and PLEASE stop stereotyping the workers. I respect the fact that you've seen ppl that "won't touch things that aren't..etc" however, we are not all that worker. I have worked in an profession that was not union. A crazy, chaotic ER.....working long shifts with no breaks and being poorly compensated. I know all about working outside of the UAW...
 la_mom
Joined: 10/26/2006
Msg: 43
GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 9:14:19 AM
How does a CEO drive a company into bankruptcy and still make millions and retain his job/bonuses? I don't understand why ppl are giving management a free pass. BTW...the union contracts were only negotiated. Management signed them. How many ppl at Toyota, Nissan, BMW and Mercedes do you know? How do you know they aren't complaining. Stop labeling GM workers as lazy, greedy, ungrateful ppl. Honestly, they aren't. They are really good ppl for the most part. At the very least, hold management to the same standard that you are the ppl on the assembly line.
 la_mom
Joined: 10/26/2006
Msg: 44
GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 9:31:49 AM
GM seems to be the first company that ppl hold the workers responsible for the outcome. Management seems to be just an innocent by-stander. You're right. We should have realized that the company was being ruined and refused to let it happen. You're right. It's our fault. Instead of building 300+ vehicles every 8 hours we should have been storming the front offices and telling them what we should be building and how many. While also respectfully requesting a pay cut due to the fact that we were furious over the fact that we made salaries that allowed us to support our families without government assistance. We also should have demanded that the amount we paid in federal and state taxes be increased because the billions that we pay simply wasn't enough.

You're right. I'm actually ashamed that I let this happen.
 Miss W
Joined: 12/4/2006
Msg: 45
GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 9:50:29 AM
Failure is the opportunity to begin again, more intelligently.
Henry Ford.

And from the ashes of their failure, let them rise again from (hopefully) learning from their mistakes and hopefully, it will be the demise of the UAW.
 la_mom
Joined: 10/26/2006
Msg: 46
GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 9:52:54 AM
I'm glad you're so excited to see that all of the wrongs that have been committed are going to be made right. Rick Waggoner will remain wealthy and all of the thousands of us that paid billions in taxes will happily accept YOUR money through unemployment while we look for other jobs. I truly would like to visit the type of companies that you evidently work for. I would welcome the opportunity to see workers in action demanding that management keep their pay and benefits down. You give the auto workers WAY, WAY more power than they ever had. I do blame the UAW & Management. But, I refuse to hang my head for working hard, paying taxes and supporting my children. I just won't. Sorry.
 la_mom
Joined: 10/26/2006
Msg: 47
GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 10:25:37 AM
I did not vote for Obama, so unfortunately, I guess I don't get to wear the "mindless drone" name tag you prepared for me so nicely. News flash.....it wasn't my job to "speak up" and tell my bosses what they were doing wrong. I work for GM not the UAW. Again...I'm excited to know, though, that there are bosses out there like the one you obviously work for that allows his employees to run his business. Funny, I thought that's why Waggoner was making millions...to run GM. Evidently, I was supposed to be.
 DocElffington
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 48
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GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 10:44:51 AM
Obviously, I people wanted and could afford GM's products...they'd be buying them.

However, GM is obviously unviable. So why bailout an unviable company? So that they can keep on building products that people don't want/can't afford?

And why is it that these automakers can build significantly more fuel efficient cars in the UK than the US?


Bubye GM!!
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 49
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GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 11:08:42 AM
For years autoworkers have enjoyed an excellent pay/benefit package as a result of negotiations and the automakers made ever increasing profits.


And that's the problem.

Continuing to demand higher wages and lower costs for Health Insurance over the years are two of the major Incidences. With the Union knowing that the Auto Companies were already struggling financially the last few years, they went ahead and pressed on for more money all the way up until very recently when they didn't have much of a choice but to cut their wages.
 la_mom
Joined: 10/26/2006
Msg: 50
GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 12:19:55 PM
I find it comical that everyone that DOESNT work at GM seems to know exactly what I make and what my benefits are. Can any of you tell me what I make an hour and what type of medical coverage I have?
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 51
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GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 12:57:34 PM
How is the union supposed to know the automakers are struggling?


How? Well Considering the UAW has a huge involvement within the companies that they work for you would figure that they would know a little something about their companies financial state considering the upper management of the UAW deals with the financial aspect of hourly wages, healthcare premiums, retirement benefits with the companies they work for.

What's wrong? Getting grossly overpaid with enormous benefits on top of that which stretches the means of a company to the brink of financial instability is what's wrong. What do domestic workers do now of days that's worth 70 an hour when robots basically assemble the vast majority of the entire car? Furthermore how much man labour actually goes into a domestic cars now of days when the robots do the vast majority work for them to get that much in benifits? Unless you work for an exotic car company that hand assembles their cars, a 70 dollar wage per hour on top of the enormous health benefits is grossly too much for a domestic car worker when the vast majority of your work is done by a robot.
 god_of_rock
Joined: 1/17/2009
Msg: 52
GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 1:03:13 PM
SOME union members , and especially union leaders over the years (not all) have had an attitude of "fuk the company"

"the company is our enemy" etc.

well if one works at it long and hard enough, maybe you can kill the hand that feeds you

heard enough stories over the years (some may be apocryphal) Of line workers 'sabotaging' cars for fun as they built them, for kicks...getting drunk and/or stoned at work, sleeping on the job, etc.

makes it harder to have a whole bunch of sympathy, now.

the government seems to respond more to pressure from certain groups..e.g. autoworkers' jobs are somehow more important than other peoples' .

apply protectionist measures to help keep wages/benefits high.

notice how the US gov't bailed out banks & auto companies but not others

they also seem to give in to pressure from farmers a lot more than from other (small) business interests.

the union become self-fulfilling its wishes..like the union president really 'cares' about the 'little people' with his $300,000 + salary & benefits, etc.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 53
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GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 1:30:06 PM
What do you call contract negotiations? What you think the UAW has no idea about their companies’ finances to negotiate new contracts?????

So all those 1,000's upon 1,000's of workers that made 70 dollars an hour all worked on maintaining those robots?

Proof of what? The fact that domestic car companies get paid way too much. Go look at what Toyota, Hyundai, Honda, Nissan and other foreign car companies pay their workers doing the same amount of work that the workers working for the big 3 gets paid to do. What makes them any diff? Nothing, other then the fact that foreign cars are made better on avg then the big 3 cars and yet the workers for the big 3 still got paid a lot more per hour..........
 la_mom
Joined: 10/26/2006
Msg: 54
GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 1:41:09 PM
Absolutely there are morons that work in the auto industry and that do stupid things.....please don't fool yourself into thinking that those type people belong exclusively to the Big 3.....and don't think that it is representative of everyone else that works there.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 55
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GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 1:49:22 PM
Yes and how many years were the U.S. auto industry and U.S. gov making backdoor deals with one another? The U.S. auto industry is by no means an innocent victim.

I wonder who voted it rubbish because it sure won a lot praise.

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/awa.html
 la_mom
Joined: 10/26/2006
Msg: 56
GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 5:08:58 PM
LOL....robots assemble the majority of the car? Yeah, you're right.....management agreed to pay us these "ridiculous salaries" when we weren't even building the product.....man, the story just gets better and better.....
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 57
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GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 5:16:36 PM
Right here. This had been what the hourly cost of the U.S. factory Auto worker was prior to the new agreement vs. the hourly cost of their Foreign counterparts.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/12/10/business/20081210_LEONHARDT_GRAPHIC.html

Why? More company responsibilities and oversight. Do you expect a McDonald’s worker flipping burgers to get paid close to what a McDonald’s district manger makes? That's just how the corp. world works. The higher the rank you are the more money you make but it comes with more responsibilities and more oversight as well. A district Manager of any company has a lot more responsibilities and oversight then someone working in a factory. With that said, no one is arguing that the CEO's aren’t to blame as well, because clearly they are in the way that they managed their business practices over the years, but for people to act like the UAW is like some innocent bystander in all this, is bogus.

Ok then explain to me who does the vast majority of assembly of a cars mainframe structure, cast ironing of mechanical components, welding, driliing, bolting, microchipping, and painting? Last time I checked all that hard work is now done by Robotics.
 casperella
Joined: 10/30/2006
Msg: 58
GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 5:19:04 PM
So they go bankrupt and we get some cars at an auction. I'll just buy a Honda. It's all about greed...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................
 la_mom
Joined: 10/26/2006
Msg: 59
GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 6:25:28 PM
SteelCity....

Obviously you would like to withdraw your previous statement that the MAJORITY of the cars are built by robots. Of course there are robots within the plants.....but your representation of robots assembling the vehicles and the thousands of workers standing around watching them being built is just false.....

My job in particular....as far as I can see in any direction every job is completed by a worker, not a robot. All I'm asking is that you guys give accurate information. Thousands of people are out of jobs and many thousands more will be soon. They are stressing over their families' future. Why throw salt on the wound and insult them? These ppl went to work everyday and did the job they were told to do. I have seen arms broken, extremities lost, heart attacks on the line...etc. It is NOT easy work...nothing you can conjure up will change that. The picture being painted is that our salaries brought GM to its knees......we were building vehicles that were not selling...plain and simple. When they stopped selling we continued to build them. When you don't sell your product, there is no profit. Stop insulting the workers and just throw a party when the whole thing goes under.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 60
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GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 8:50:31 PM
Where did I say that the vast majority of workers stand around and watch the robots build the cars? I stated that the vast majority of robots do the hard work that workers no longer have to do, which is a fact. Everything I mentioned in my prior post, robots do now.

Explain to me why the UAW total hourly cost were nearly 20 dollars more per hour then their foreign counterparts last year? I'm not justifying anything that the CEO's salaries were for the big 3, because they too were a big part of the problem as well in terms of the amount of money that they demanded to gross.

I never proclaimed that CEO's of companies deserve that much money I proclaimed that they deserved a lot more money and greater benefits then an avg worker because they have much more greater responsibilities someone working in a factory. What is a main objective of your A) typical factor worker? To assemble a product as to where a district manager for example not only has the responsibilities of overseeing and managing who supervises the sales activity for a district, but also has to manage the product operations of a district as well. So of course they deserve more money with greater benefits because of their greater job complexity.

Yes and did you also read the part where I said that the CEO's are much to blame for their product mismanagement practices, because I clearly stated that in my last post, but you seem like the Unions are innocent bystanders in this like they had little to no part in the downfall of their companies that they worked for as in their past actions are totally justifiable, which is why I blame not only the CEO's of the big 3 but also the UAW as well, which is why the big 3 are in much more danger of going belly-up then their Foregien counterparts due to their overzellous CEO's and Unions.
 la_mom
Joined: 10/26/2006
Msg: 61
GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 9:06:15 PM
I think i've said OVER and OVER that I blame both the UAW and Management....you're the one that focuses only on the actual worker. I'm just writing this off to occupational envy at this point. You really don't know what you're talking about. Thanks for caring!
 maxxoccupancy
Joined: 2/5/2007
Msg: 62
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GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 9:11:31 PM
Great. I refuse to buy a GM car, again. All they make are lemons. If I won't voluntarily pay my own money to an organization that expresses such utter contempt for the end consumer, why should politicians force me to keep this money losing operation alive against my will? Capitalism works because badly managed companies are threatened with going under if they don't turn their act around. Government bureaucracy doesn't work because state run monopolies can always lobby for larger tax subsidies when they lose money. If private companies can depend on tax funded bailouts every time they run amok, then there are no incentives to succeed and no reason to be careful with funds.

Once "bailed out," money losing operations tend to continue receiving subsidies until they are finally nationalized.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 63
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GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 9:26:38 PM
Oh yes that must be it. Is that why my initial post I went after GM as a "company" along with a few other post I made after my initial post as well? I didn't start focusing on the Unions until some of the comments in here were portraying the Union as more of the innocent bystander in all of this.

Writing this off as occupational envy? LOL, oh yeah that must be it. I like what I’m doing just fine thank you. Try these overzealous Companies and their Unions wanting to waste billions of Americans tax dollars which also includes my tax dollars as well going to them when the tax payers have nothing to do with the way that they ran their business practices into the ground. Yep I sure know nothing of what I’m talking about and I guess millions of other Americans that feel the same way as I do don't either right......
 maxxoccupancy
Joined: 2/5/2007
Msg: 64
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GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/13/2009 9:34:54 PM
I'll be the first to admit that unions need to accept and offer changes to become more competitive. However, it's not the union workers, but the officials who are causing problems. Most people don't know about the enormous manday contributions that companies have to make. Some maritime unions (like Seafarer's International Union) blatantly steal from their members. Counting union dues, working dues, SPAD contributions, administrative dues, and manday contributions, the union officials are pulling more money off of a worker than he is seeing from his base wages. Some of the union officials are making more money than the execs.
 la_mom
Joined: 10/26/2006
Msg: 65
GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/14/2009 12:08:32 AM
Thanks Max! A reasonable response that I totally concur with.

Steel....

Guess what? I'm a freaking taxpayer too... in fact, I probably pay more in taxes than you do. I'm against the bailout because I believe that the way that a healthy economy works is that viable companies succeed and those overrun by greed and piss poor business plans fail. I don't think the taxpayer should be on the hook to save them...and IT"S MY JOB ON THE LINE. But, don't separate yourself from me when calling yourself a taxpayer....I am too.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 66
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GM threatens to pull the bankruptcy trigger if it doesn't get more money.
Posted: 3/14/2009 2:24:18 AM
That's funny that you say you are prob more of a tax payer then me considering you have no idea what I do or what I pay into each year. Yeah let’s not talk about me not knowing what I’m talking about when you make a hypocritical statement like that.

Where did I ever say that I’m separating myself as a tax payer? That so called separating myself that you are accusing me of is what they call putting “emphasis" onto a rebuttal statement. Furthermore, I do believe that I stated “Americans" tax dollars in that statement as well. So therefore your accusation of me separating myself from any other tax payers is an unwarranted assertion.
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