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 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 50
Has society bred stupidity?Page 2 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)

With that logic you could argue that my life is not mine


That's what I AM arguing.

"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 52
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/1/2009 4:06:39 AM

Blaming a lack of community in your area on cars is simply ridiculous


You seem like a pretty bright young guy, but you're missing the point. I guess it's because you grew up in a world where the decay was already a fait accompli. To a large extent so did I, but I've had the "advantage" of living longer and watching as things continued to decay over the course of decades.

For myself I don't care; I don't have too many years left. But I confess I pity my children, because they are growing up in a world designed to lead them like cattle to the slaughter and they already have the apathetic mindset that makes it so easy. Like you, they'd rather go along to get along...More's the pity. The transformation from people to sheeple is almost complete. Welcome to Big Brother's world.
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 54
view profile
History
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/1/2009 4:52:09 PM
Bred stupidity? I don't think so, more like acclimatizing.
For example, look at the last US Presidential election, which happened in November of 2008. The Party of Limbaugh Republicans are still debating the issues of that campaign, using the same rhetoric that lost them the election; I don't think they were born stupid, they've just been stupidly re-edjumacated by eight years of Dubya.
The smart Republicans (if any are left) would be looking forward, trying to figure out what they did wrong to lose the election, then applying the lessons learned to future campaigns; meanwhile working within the existing power structure to fix the economy.

On the other hand, my van has factory-installed labels on the front doors warning against hitting yourself in the head, so...
 DaManley
Joined: 2/11/2009
Msg: 56
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/1/2009 6:17:44 PM
Well then I guess the wheel looks like a bad idea too, huh?
We don't walk anymore and we have all just become lazy. lol
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 57
view profile
History
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/1/2009 8:03:01 PM
Kinda depends on your point of view. The log-roller industry hated the wheel. How many log-roller workers were retrained to make wheels? Did the "wheel revolution" cause a global panic, or recession? Were the wheels made locally, or were they imported because of cheaper labor costs overseas? Did it take less skill to operate a wheeled vehicle? Has civilization lost the ability to move multi-ton stone blocks with nothing but rollers and 1,000 unskilled minimum wage workers? What was the effect on society of replacing the odd worker, lubricating the rollers with his crushed body, with lubricating wheel bearings with grease?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 58
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/1/2009 8:19:40 PM
I am thoroughly convinced that you or anybody else who argues otherwise is fixated on the very few drawbacks that come with such advances


What made you think I was arguing against technology, or progress? I was lamenting the fact that some of our greatest advances had turned against us, sometimes accidentally as a consequence of our nature, sometimes deliberately as a means of control.

Have we been "dumbed down? Absolutely. Deliberately? Absolutely. By "dumbed down" I mean "kept in the dark" about things we aren't intended to know. Meanwhile, we are given fluoridated water and antidepressants supposedly to protect our teeth or help us "cope" with depression. We have an idiot box with propaganda for news and the equivalent of kid's puppet shows for entertainment, interspersed incessantly with buy, buy, buy messages that wear down your resistance to the point you might think you really do need a riding mower for your apartment balcony.

What's that? Can't afford the crap? No problem we got 8-year-old Wal-Mart employees chained to tables, working around the clock in China to make cheap crap you can afford. Don't worry about the kids; we feed them occasionally (and nothing expensive either; they can't afford it on the slave wages we pay to keep the costs down on your cheap crap.) But I digress...

How many people really understand the monetary system? I'll tell you, a small fraction (percentagewise) of the people who understood it 200 years ago. Believe me that was no accidental "error of omission" in everybody's education. In the US, Old man Rockefeller said it best when he said "I don't want a nation of thinkers; I want a nation of workers!" Three guesses as to who helped create modern American educational policy & curriculum in the US (and the first two don't count). Unless you study economics at the graduate level, you really don't have a handle on how the economy really works. It's not sufficient to study Keynes or Galbraith or Friedman to know what's really going on.

Do I enjoy technology and the beauty of it? Well, what do you think, that I'm getting a bit too old to crank my Tin Lizzie, or my Victrola? Of course I enjoy technology and it's beauty. In fact, I like to be on the forefront of it. It's just that I have a sensitive nose. I can smell the bullshit as well as the roses.
 xcentricheart
Joined: 12/28/2008
Msg: 59
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/1/2009 8:33:38 PM
Purdue 1 :"I have to adamantly argue that the positives of such technology far outweigh the consequences. Not only does technology not make us stupider, it flat out enables me to learn more in an hour than the smartest person on earth could have in a week 30 years ago. It enables me to help starving children in Africa from my bedroom if I choose to. It helps me stay in touch with friends who I otherwise would have lost contact with years ago. The list goes on and on… The benefits are so overwhelming that the entire argument you propose seems absurd. I am thoroughly convinced that you or anybody else who argues otherwise is fixated on the very few drawbacks that come with such advances, you have effectively made a monster out of a beauty queen lol, and thankfully people like me get to enjoy the beauty."

Everyone's definition of beauty varies - as does their definition of the 'norm'. I take offense that you feel you can learn more in a week with the aid of technology than the smartest person on earth could 30 years ago. My grandfather could learn more in one hour from nature than I am sure you have from the internet in one hour. He also possesed something that most do not today - the ability to communicate and teach and foster that knowledge in others. My grandfather was not the smartest man on earth, and he never will be - his intelligence and ability far exceeded many of the physicians that I work with. He could remove a horrible splinter, with little effort, and very limited discomfort! He never had a "formal education" or completed the 8th grade. He never learned to read music- but could play over 4 instruements (and you liked the songs, and understood the music and words)! He was not an exception of the time. Men and women like him exist today.
Technology and society do not breed intelligence - life experiences do.
 azurwth
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 61
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/1/2009 10:26:13 PM
as my good friend les stroud always says.. technology makes you less self reliant .. which means you become weak and useless... and yes society is breading stupidity not just through technological advances but through the breeding of weak people and crazy people... humans at this point are disgusting ... 6.4 billion people in this world.. how many more do you think can be sustained on this tiny planet? ...
 xcentricheart
Joined: 12/28/2008
Msg: 63
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/2/2009 6:01:06 AM
Purdue 1: Thank you for clarifying with your statement regarding referencing information on the internet, etc. I think the point is that there is a wealth of information with and without that available that can be accessed and learned. My opint was more to the effect that we do not value different types of learning and experiences -
The thread question about society breeding stupidity? Society consists of the citizens - us - correct? Shouldn't we be teaching children and ouselves? I agree with many comments made - that technology is a tool we use. Unfortunately there are many tools that are thrown away that should not be, forgetting the 'old ways' is not good. Being able to blend and use them both is necessary.

Some things to think about:
Ok, the schools are teaching follow-the-leader mentality - what are parents teaching at home?
Teachers are under more constraints and pressure NOT to fail children - why?
Do parents sit down with their kids to do homework on a regular basis?
How many parents are kids themselves?

Someone with better technological skills can look up these facts far faster and more effecient than I can!
:)
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 64
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/2/2009 6:58:37 AM

The fact is that the programs that are played, are so because that’s what’s in demand, literally. Freedom, remember?


I don't recall asking to watch hours of insipid, repetitive commercials; I do note however that they are successful in getting the public to buy their products. Modern commercials are scientifically designed to get past the normal defenses and to "program" the consumer mindset. Psychologists studying the phenomena of subliminal suggestion were hired by Madison Avenue to optimize the process. It turns out TV is the perfect "swinging watch", which is not news to anyone who has watched the people watching TV hour after hour. Is the TV evil? Of course not, but the people doing the programming are. Their job is to get people to watch, period.


People have been ‘dumbed down’ since the beginning of society. Cover ups, scandals, fraud, theft; do you think these are new concepts? Something that came with technology? I would argue that things have always been just as corrupt - perhaps they are even more translucent now than in the past.


You are quite correct. To spite my argument to the contrary, the internet is one little bit of technology that may finally upset their applecart. Unless they can effectively censor it, it becomes impossible for the truth to remain hidden. I note that the powers that be are in damage control mode and trying to re-cork the bottle with cyber-terror, child predation and pornography as justifications for complete censorship. It still sticks in their craw that people are using secure encryption (another positive of technology) to preserve their privacy on the web and they are trying to promote a new form that apparently has a backdoor) in an effort to deceive people into thinking their communication is still secure).

The internet is a piece of technology that may raise human consciousness to the next level. The last time that occurred was when Gutenberg invented the printing press and destroyed the Church's near monopoly on written information. The event before that was writing itself. These developments were all watershed moments in human history that forever changed us for the better. They were all improvements in communication between people and in all cases tyranny suffered. (It is suffering today, but it is not going away; it is regrouping for the next assault on humanity.)

However, new strategies were formed to keep people in the dark. Technology was exploited as a tool of oppression by deception. Rebellion against the established order is forestalled with scientifically designed subliminal pacification methods. If information is "the enemy" of control, then disinformation will keep the people confused. Wherever possible, real information that could turn people against the ruling elite would be choked off (the schools). People are now taught to think in concrete, rather than abstract terms (the demise of a liberal arts education)


I would love to see some studies about how many people understood the monetary system 200 years ago, so please enlighten me.


You are (becoming?) an engineer and may be considered well-educated in today's society. The monetary system that everybody has to function in should be something that everyone can understand (so politicians don't pull a fast one with our money). It is then reasonable to assume that you understand at least the rudiments of the monetary system. You should then (without researching it) be able to tell me how & why you signed on to your personal share of the national debt (currently some $37,000 and growing) and whether or not you had any choice in the matter.
 Hedonist13
Joined: 6/19/2006
Msg: 65
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/2/2009 4:39:34 PM
I think that you're blending technologically dependent with 'dumbing down'. Do I think that we as a society are becoming too dependent on tech? Yes. As you so clearly stated, we rely on GPS for directions, calculators for basic math problems, spellcheck on the computer, e-mail for actual letters, etc, etc. BUT - I think with this dependency, we've allowed ourselves as a society to dumb down. Example? I've got 2 words for you: Paris Hilton. So many people waste their time and gray matter on celebrities and reality television! Why?! It only encourages shallow, oxygen-thieving wastes of DNA like Hilton to thrive in the asinine 'limelight'. How many people actually read books these days instead of People magazine? This type of immature, brain-dead attitude can not be good for our species. In fact, it concerns me more than becoming dependent on technology.

Oh, and I will not give up my cell phone. I like having it in the car in case I need roadside assistance!
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 66
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/2/2009 5:57:27 PM

Example? I've got 2 words for you: Paris Hilton.


All the ranting I've been doing to try to get my point across and you've summed up my argument in two words...Paris Hilton; the very icon of modern society. Shallow, blonde, rich and spoiled. It isn't important to think, or make a contribution; all you have to do is look good and be rich!...what else is there? I'm sure she'll be immortalized in history, or at least have a perfume named after her.

Well OK, I've had my laffs. Even I know that Paris's schtick is doing a parody of herself (she really does it well) and I have to compliment her on pointing out to all of us just how shallow & meaningless lives have generally become in our society. She almost "blew her cover" and revealed her intelligence when she butted heads with McCain & ran for president, but I think that's mostly forgotten now and her dumb blonde act is somewhat credible again. She can safely go back to playing her "product of the American dream" role. I just hope most people know that while they laugh at her, she laughs at them for being dumb enough to believe her, but it's a faint hope at best, which kinda proves my case.

DAMN!!...I wish I'd thought of it! Kudos for your insight, Hedonist13!

BTW: if you disconnect your cell battery, it'll last MUCH longer between charges and you won't be pestered by unwanted calls (and can't be monitored by "snoops").
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 68
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/3/2009 4:56:28 PM
In a debt based economy all you have to do in order to gain a share of debt is be born


You were doing well until you hit this point. Quite simply, you were born free and with all your human rights intact. You didn't owe a nickel to anyone. To assume a debt, you HAVE to contract for it with your full consent. Most people don't know this one, simple little point of law, but it's a fact. Were it not so, anybody could get something and make somebody else pay for it. When money is borrowed, there MUST be a creditor and a debtor and BOTH must consent to enter into the contract. I could tell you a lot more, but I think it better that you check it out for yourself. Read a little about contract law and get back to me.

You know?...I think this merits a thread of its own. Maybe we should have everybody discussing how they signed onto the national debt. Face it; it ain't exactly pocket change (not to most of us anyway), so I guess everybody should be interested, since they all feel they owe it (most, but not all do). Let's see...I'll call it "Do you really owe the national debt?" It's mostly law & economics, but I don't think such forums exist here, so I'll leave it under science & philosophy.
 mpaul7172
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 69
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/3/2009 7:28:24 PM
Dukky says "The internet is a piece of technology that may raise human consciousness to the next level."

Comment: except when there is excessive censorship.

Also, as far as the national debt: I don't think the Chinese or Arabs, when they are ready to collect, are going to argue fine points of US law, as to whether when the US govt contracts a debt, that the US people (esp those unborn when the debt was contracted) are not somehow liable.

I personally did not consent to the present debt situation. The US govt did. But believe me, I had better pay my taxes, because the IRS man aint gonna go for that excuse that I did not personally consent to the national debt.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 70
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/3/2009 8:12:37 PM

I did not personally consent to the national debt.


Yes you did. That's why the IRS won't accept it as an excuse. (But this is now the wrong thread to discuss it)
 Java++
Joined: 9/26/2007
Msg: 71
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/4/2009 4:41:59 PM
People may have said that about maps before they were made. They weren't able to make them without a form of technology. It actually takes really smart people to make a GPS, Einstein being one of them. Why not use cell phones? I think what you may trying to get at is the abuse of these technologies and the less and less social interaction we have and I think this is a shame.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 72
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/5/2009 11:19:04 PM
@ Thorb

I watched it tonight...Case closed!
 kow626
Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 74
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/6/2009 1:35:40 AM
don't forget people...sum1 has 2 imagine, create, n learn how 2 use da very tech dat makes life easier 4 us. ever bought a phone n had 2 customize it? got a new remote 4 wutever n had 2 learn 2 use it? got a new or ur 1st car n had 2 learn how 2 drive it? dere's people out dere who never even mastered programming a vcr 2 record. dats individual stupidity, not da masses breeding more morons. if dat were 2 happ, den we'd b talking about genetics but i don't think dats da issue here.

apply gps 2 dis mode of thinking. u can buy 1 all u want but if u dont need it, den wuts da point? u jus gonna buy any gps or u gonna buy da 1 dat suits ur needs? how does using a gps imply not using ur brain? u hav 2 lissen 2 da voice directions, decipher wuts onscreen, drive, n pay attention 2 wuts goin on outside n inside ur car. all deez functions require using dat beautiful thing called da human brain. so much capability, so much still untapped.

evolution and the existence of all dis tech should tell u we're getting smarter, not dumber. granted ther are more dan enuf idiots in da world 2 make any of us ? dis, but for da majority, i beleev we're gettin smarter. dere will always b dat minority (seems like a majorit sumtimes) of doofheads in our lives, on da news, in da papers...or at work or home...
 Sweet_Le_Senza
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 75
view profile
History
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 4/30/2009 3:51:08 PM
I think this is a great thread. There are too many posts for me to go over so if this has been mentioned already my bad. Anywho, I have a desktop and have had a laptop now for a few months and only spell check is on my desktop. I usually prefer my laptop but am not used to having to look up the words to make sure I spelled them correctly. Sometimes people just let it go and have mispelled words however I would prefer to have the correct spelling. I find that without the spellcheck it helps me remember the spelling of the word. When I have kids, no spell check. They have to look it up in the dictionary. But that's just me. I don't want a machine thinking for me all the time! Ah, Western civiliation. Gotta love it!
 chrono1985
Joined: 11/20/2004
Msg: 78
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 5/1/2009 12:10:33 AM
I think most of the stupidity we observe today isn't really on fault of the individuals themselves but rather the education they receive. One example would be a ticket someone I know received: they never signed the ticket nor were asked to (hence no contract to pay was formed), the officer didn't address them as a person (with the absence of a signature that's a lack of forming a joiner between the individual and the person). Those two alone I imagine could relatively easily be interpreted as the officers giving them a piece of paper and not a ticket, but since the person waited more than the grace period to approach it they were able to assume it was accepted by default. On top of that the court house got the person to sign a piece of paper that said they could charge the updated amounts for a seat belt infraction, which was double of the value labeled on the ticket. That person was never taught that those things could get the ticket thrown out, as it was never officially issued, the simple fear of having a warrant for their arrest issued threw logic out the window which could have easily pieced it together. Those are things that person should have been taught in the mandatory education system as they are a very basic part of establishing contracts between two legal standing bodies, however they weren't and had noticeably high grades in the latter part of the mandatory education system.

Another reason I tend to blame education is the simple fact that I did badly in it because I couldn't work exactly as the curriculum wanted me to, even though I could come to the same ends without the assistance of others. Most of the people I know that did good in the education system aren't capable of learning the types of things I learn, or even understand very basic things like what 1/8 actually means in numeric terms. The fraction reminds me of the math classes I failed because I don't cross-cancel fractions, instead I do the division, remove terms that would cancel each other out (that's called optimization), and then work to the conclusion. Most of the time I can get done through a complex problem like that long before someone that is proficient in cross-canceling, but yet I was shunned for it in the education system. Shouldn't it instead focus on teaching students to expand on the method they understand to perform a function instead of performing it through a procedure that only confuses them?
 knightwhosaysnih
Joined: 4/2/2009
Msg: 79
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 5/1/2009 5:40:20 AM
When the market collapsed in 1929 they called it a "crash." In 2008, it's an "economic storm." That we can no longer accurately distinguish between man made crises and acts of nature, supports Toynbee's observation that, "mankind's chances of survival were far greater when we were defencelless against tigers, than today when we're defenceless against ourselves."

Dumbing down - way down.
 Go Rin No Sho
Joined: 1/9/2009
Msg: 83
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History
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 5/1/2009 9:50:44 PM
Negative. We have just removed the consequences of being stupid. Before the advent of personal injury lawyers, If a stupid person did a stupid thing and got fracked up as a result, society would look at him / her and say, "you're frackin' stupid and you deserve what you got".

Now, it's "Injured? Call the law offices of Dewey, Cheatum and Howe and let us get the money you deserve!"

Deserve?

DEE-SERVE?

In the good old days, stupid people may not have lived long enough to reproduce and pass on the stupid gene.

Now, our government subsidizes stupid baby making.

One second thought, you may be right.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 84
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History
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 5/2/2009 4:21:28 AM
RE Msg: 101 by Davidartist:
Human beings are breaking down genetically because more individuals who should have died from natural selection are surviving through technological intervention and reproducing with their deficiencies. This is even happening in the 3rd world due to assistance from 1st world services.
Actually, the problem is very clear. In our own country, we'll provide opportunities for people to get smart, but we let them be dumb if they want to. If children are not being sent to school, then we'll punish the parents. But there is no rule in Western society, that we will force people to stay in school, until they graduate high school, even though it's obvious just how much high school dropouts suffer from being allowed to never complete it.

Our society considers it a right to be able to become educated, if you want, but doesn't consider it a responsibility to ensure that we are all educated. You can even see this in the 3rd world, because we'll give them food, and try to stop wars, and give them schools, but we won't force them to put all their kids into school, even though that's exactly what they need.

But the problem is that only older people can tell you how important it is to be educated when you are young. Older people who did graduate high school will tell you just how much it improved their life. Older people who dropped out of high school will tell you just how much they missed out on by not finishing high school. But the people who are studying are not old enough to see the advantages of education, and how important it is, that it really should be mandatory.

It's pretty simple to see where all this will lead. And I should note the medical profession and Pharmaceutical profession wouldn't have it any other way!!! They love it!!!!
That's because if everyone was forced to get a good education, then there would be a heck of a lot more doctors and a lot more Pharmaceutical professionals, and then that would mean a lot of current doctors and Pharmaceutical professionals would be out of a job, replaced by someone who does a better job than them, and if everyone was forced to get a good education, then most people would eat much healthier and take regular exercise, and that would vastly reduce the number of people getting long-term illnesses, putting a lot of doctors and Pharmaceutical professionals out of work.

It's in their interest to keep people sick, and people who know less, know less about how to keep themselves healthy.
It's in their interest to be get job security in their profession, and people who know less, are far less likely to be able to do their job.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 85
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History
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 5/7/2012 7:18:30 PM


Is it possible that in humanities never ending thirst for knowledge, we are actually doing more harm than good?

Anything is possible



Technology today has made it so that you barely have to do any thinking for yourself.

Bullshit. I work with a multimillion dollar planning program at work but I still have to do many things manually because no computer hardware or software that I'm aware of has the ability to actally think.



Take GPS systems for example. They are so user friendly, not only will it give you directions, but it will tell you when to turn within 2 meters I believe? What ever happened to pulling out a map and using your brain?

It's difficult to read a map while you're driving.
A GPS is to a map as a map is to a compas. A map is to a compass as a compass is to knowledge of the stars.



Have we become so autonomous that we depend on technology to live?

A horse drawn plough is technology. So is a garden spade. Basically, you're proposing we kill forest animals and gather roots with our bare hands? Naked?



How about cell phones?

How about them? How many lives do you suppose they've saved? People dying on the side of a highway with a poorly trained first-aider might appreciate an ambulance being dispatched sooner than later.
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 86
Has society bred stupidity?
Posted: 5/12/2012 3:54:45 AM
""Human beings are breaking down genetically because more individuals who should have died from natural selection are surviving through technological intervention and reproducing with their deficiencies. This is even happening in the 3rd world due to assistance from 1st world services.""

David, here's a plan. First, outlaw religion. The Dawkins crowd says that religious faith is a delusion, so let's get rid of it. Also, billions of people are wrong because once people believed in Zeus, so.......there you go! This way, with any delusion of God eliminated, the State can be all-powerful.

Then, let's start with Medicare, just repeal it. Elephants go to graveyards to die, why can't granny and gramps, too? Nursing homes, medical care? You don't see that in the wild, do you? What a waste! Medicaid can go, too, think of all the extra money people will have to spend and get the economy moving again!

Next: genetic testing. Birth defects are a burden on society and counter-evolutionary. If there are defects, then mandatory abortion. For those who can't work...the blind, the disabled, the frail elderly, etc.....just plain shoot them. If the state says it's OK to shoot them, then that is the final authority. Of course, anyone harboring blind, disabled or frail elderly would have to be shot, too.

We have got to get out of the way of natural selection and let it do the work of evolving mankind!
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