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 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 113
What does Friends First really mean?Page 4 of 12    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)
zuglo,

You "attacked" (sorry don't mean it like that, just can't think of a better word), other posters who said they just here other than dating, or anything serious..

LOL - no, I don't work here. I can be critical of how the site's set up in some ways. If I "worked here" I wouldn't suggest someone going to a social networking site if their usage & sole purpose on the -main site- was to find a friend.

First, I've -never- criticized (that's a better word, right? lol) anyone for being on here other than things serious. I am NOT nor have I ever pushed for people to come on here just for relationships or even formal dating. Nothing wrong with looking for a FWB or intimate encounter or what-have-you, if that's your forte. However, yes, I have heavily criticized people who are NOT on here for any flavor of matchmaking purposes, but the *opposite*: To find people -- on strictly a platonic level. At best, if one's profile screamed it loud and convincingly enough where any normal-minded person was fully convinced that person was not looking for anything more than platonic, it would scare away most where it wouldn't really be a bother... but the argument is for it not to be a trend to allow for some lonely folks to rationalize that the profile-matchmaking site is also there for non-matchmaking purposes.

You keep saying that..You don't trust people much do you? They might be looking for action on the side, they might not..

YES -- that's why that was (a)! And there was ALSO (b) which says they could be in the wrong place! A matchmaking site! :)

According to you they all should just leave this site!! Why are you keep saying that??..Zzzzz...You came across pretty arrogant..Sorry..

I'm not saying leave the site, so let me clarify. Someone could be on here for the Forums, which yes, requires a profile. If they're not looking for someone on a matchmaking level, put "Not Single/Not Looking", and a standard "Just here for the forums" explanation in the profile to save yourself any confusion if some person not getting the picture while profile-searching in your area tries to write ya.

But to -utilize- the profile-matchmaking engine to find a tennis partner on a strictly platonic basis -- it's not only ineffective to find purely-just-a-friend (when you and I both know over 99% are not looking for purely-just-a-friend), but also has the potential to confuse a few users or many if not spelled out properly. :) Because after all, many other people use the word "Friends" to not mean just friends, too! So for those folks who are improperly on a matchmaking site looking for strictly platonic in every sense of the word, you're obligated to loudly spell it out with authority if you wish for virtually all users to get the message that don't mean "Take it slow" or "FWB" or "Ya know, no commitments". Use another engine -- a social networking site if you're looking to JUST socially network, that's all.

This site's purpose is the same as Match. It's to match-make. It is totally cool to end up befriending someone via the Forums, as the Forums are an extension that no other site really has, and is for a different purpose.... But apart from that, I think you're ignoring the fact that you're using a site massively different than intended if you're looking for a male bar buddy, or a girl as JUST a friend (yeah right -- you'd gravitate toward better looking ones than BBWs).

I think you're insisting using any site for whatever purpose you wish or that all sites are for any purpose. Let's say there's a gay matchmaking site out there called "Gay Matchmaking", right? If ALL I'm looking for are guy friends, I'm not going to go there, but to you that'd be just fine -- nobody should scratch their head if I would. If I am looking to find a girl to hang out with or date, by your rationale, it would be just fine and I should get no flack to be on there for that sole purpose as a hetero guy looking for a hetero situation. Hey, many gay guys are close friends with pretty girls... and many girls on there can be bi underneath it all, right?

Point is, it'd be a lot like me going to some place "FRIENDS ONLY - PLATONIC ONLY", yet try to hook up with chicks. Just saying, you're going to get called out for doing the something specific in the incorrect place by others, that's all... and advice to utilize the place you're at properly ("Not Single/Not Looking" if looking for JUST a tennis partner), and also another place that's actually suited for what you'd want (social networking site for mere social networking).

And again -- if this is properly set as a non-matchmaking place too, then you should have NO PROBLEM with a girlfriend or wife on the site looking for a dude to hang out with, as long as she selects "Friends", right? :)
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 116
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/23/2010 11:49:08 AM
You took it out of context in regards to what we disagree on -- you forgot the preface:

put "Not Single/Not Looking", and a standard "Just here for the forums" explanation in the profile to save yourself any confusion if some person not getting the picture while profile-searching in your area tries to write ya.

I was saying that you CAN be on the site for the forums -- but make it clear in your profile and deactivate yourself from the profile-searching mechanism, IF you're not looking to use the match-making engine (that 99% of the people on here SOLELY use). I don't agree that one should use the match-making engine for FRIENDS-ONLY. Matchmaking is NOT the friend-zone. :)

But if I see long term, soul mate, settle down, life partner, spend a rest of my life with, or something similar, I will not write to her

That's fine -- but so will many people who are just looking to date casually -- and you're talking about friends, which is different. Not looking for a life partner doesn't mean you're not doing any match-making of any type. Just because you're not looking to get hitched, serious, or settle down does not in ANY WAY imply that you're looking for just friends! Quite the contrary in most situations at a bar or on a matchmaking site! It sounds to me you are wanting to call someone "just friends" when you really mean "not seriously dating" or "just hanging out, keeping things low-key". There's a big difference between a friend-zone and not getting all romantic & serious. Being just friends = friend-zone. Friends first = friend-zone (with assumptions that there's a potentiality for more in future).

IF I have a gf/wife, and she is here other than for a forums, and she would look for a dude to hang out, course I would have a problem with that. I don't see where are you going with that

Oh, it's clear as a bell actually! :) Your initial argument is that people can be on here for JUST FRIENDS. IF that's the case, and this IS legitimately a place for just friends -- not casual dating, but JUST friends as you have said -- then you would have no problem with a gf/wife on here, as long as they just marked "Friends" in that section. A taken gal can have a male friend in life. If you have a problem with a gf/wife being on here looking for a dude friend, then you KNOW that it's not a legit place to find just friends, right? That's my point.

Tell me you never seen a profile where she just "looking", doesn't want anything serious, because I seen PLENTY OF that

Yes -- I have. And many times that's all that I'm at. I see that on here and at the bar. But they're not looking for people in their friend-zone. They're looking for MORE than friends. More than friends does not mean formal dating or looking to get hitched.

I agree that this site should not be for serious-dating only. I've never argued that. What I'm saying is that casual "dating" or low-key guy/girl hanging out w/o big dating expectations does not mean you're in the friend zone, ie platonic.

Were you just saying "friends" as "not seriously/formally dating"?
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 117
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/23/2010 12:02:10 PM

Tell me you never seen a profile where she just "looking", doesn't want anything serious, because I seen PLENTY OF that...Hey..Plenty of fish..LOL

I've seen that fairly often, but in general, thatisn't what it means. The woman I'm dating listed herself as talk/email but she contacted me with the intention of going out on a date with me. I used to think those categories implied what the words suggested, but I never found that to actually be the case.
 FORFUN0069
Joined: 9/28/2004
Msg: 120
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/24/2010 10:46:24 AM
you are dead on point and a very wise lady- hey you need a new friend? I DO BUDDY!
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 121
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/24/2010 3:22:39 PM
Yes, it does sound like there is a miscommunication of words. However, the original hubub was about it being okay to call something -merely- "friends" when you have non-platonic intentions and aren't looking for anything platonic. But then you stepped in alluding to it being OKAY to utilize the site for the purpose of something non-platonic (some quotes):

Why can't it just mean just that?? Friends.. To me it is possible to be friends with a women, and not expecting sex. All I try to say is, that it is possible that someone chooses the "Friends" option, and that's just what they mean. But if they just try to widen their friends circle, why not be on this site?

See how I thought your argument was about being platonic ("just friends")? Hence the question about a wife/gf, which you wouldn't be cool with ... it's not about platonic stuff, just widening your circle of friends, just "friends".

Maybe that's where my thinking is faulty..Hm.. It's all in my profile tho, so if she skip that, it's not my fault.

Well, just because you clear up any faults in your profile doesn't mean the initial fault in it doesn't exist ;) If you DON'T mean just friends by "Friends", that is a fault. Why not put "Hang Out"?

Not to me..Well, I bet " we disagree on what is "getting romantic" means..

Language does not center around you when you're using words to other people, though. Me and a couple buddies starting using the word "hooker" to mean those who like to play hooky from school, work, etc. If I was to say "Looking for a fellow hooker" as my headline, because that's how *I* like to call it... but then I further explain in my profile that I just want to hang out -- I would deserve some flack. But even with that, though -- I couldn't be accused of trying to mask things like some folks do with the word "friends"... if anything, I'd be accused of trying to be funny while turning many off.

Point being, it's not just MY personally-cultivated definition of what "Friends" by itself and only by itself means -- it's by what the language and its use says, to avoid common miscommunication.

But hey, I'm glad we got down to this... you believe it's okay to label something -merely- friends as a title among you and someone -else-, and don't think there should be any miscommunication, even though you do not mean platonic -- as long as you further explain it if you get the chance (like within a profile). I am saying that if you use a word/phrase that contradicts what you mean, it's good to clear it up in a profile or explanation if in person, but it still deserves flack for using that. (see 'hooker' example)

I am all about non platonic..um..friendship..

If you were to call it a "Non-Platonic Friend", that wouldn't beget any confusion.

As I was told, friend don't have sex with each other

JUST friends don't going around having any sexual relations with each other. That's why people call it "JUST friends". Friends w/o a description tacked onto it means platonic. Friends w/ benefits (FWB) or boy/girl-friends or ex-boy/girl friends have sex with each other.

Here's something I don't think we'd disagree with and would clear up what I mean. Say you've been seeing a girl for a while (see, I didn't say Dating!)... you've made out, hooked up here and there, hung out... you dig her, she digs you, but it's all good and casual. You two are going to get a drink in a couple days and she texts you that she wants to talk to you about something. Okay, sure, you say...

So you meet up, and she says "Listen, Z-man... I want to be just friends." Now, we both know what that means, right? PLATONIC. Just friends. You or I wouldn't respond with "Oh, I thought you had some news! We are just friends, remember?" That'd be playing stupid and annoy her. lol :)

In the dating/match-making/hook-up/guy-girl world, "friend" by -itself- means platonic. Friend-zone exactly means you're in the platonic-only-zone. Again, you can use another adjective to re-inforce the platonicness of "Friend" or to mean not just a friend.

In this gross rambling of mine, here's another example of possible miscommunication with 'Friend'. I'm at a bar with a buddy Bob.
NORMAL SITUATION:
Me: Hey, Bob, who's that cute girl over there? I've noticed you know her.
Bob: Oh that's Sally. She's friend of mine. She's cool.
Me: Cool.
*Two Days Later, on phone with Bob*
Me: Hey Bob, I saw that girl Sally you know at the bookstore. I got her #, and we're going out for a drink on Tuesday. She was really geeked about me. Put in a good word for me anyway, k?
Bob: Nice job! Yeah, will do, will do...

MISCOMMUNICATION WHEN I CALL BOB:
Me: Me: Hey Bob, I saw that girl Sally you know at the bookstore. I got her #, and we're going out for a drink on Tuesday. She was really geeked about me. Put in a good word for me anyway, k?
Bob: WTF, you SOB! Dude, I told you Sally is mine!
Me: Whoah! Dude... no no, you only said she was a friend. You didn't tell me you guys were seeing each other or anything!
Bob: Well, I don't know if you'd call it SEEING each other... but yeah, she is mine... we're friends, we're not Dating, and I figure she's probably messed around with a guy here or there... but not one of my buddies, come on. You should know better than that!
Me: You should tell me she's a girl you're seeing or hanging out with or something.
Bob: But I'm not dating her! To me Dating means serious relationship!
Me: You don't have to use the word Dating it all dating is serious to you. You can say seeing, or hanging with. Don't leave it at just a friend! That's worse than being vague!
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 123
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/25/2010 10:43:30 AM

Why not put hang out? Good question, I might change it to that than.. It used to said in my profile that I have no problem with FWB, than asked around, and was told it makes me look um...that I just looking for sex..Hm..

You should! It wouldn't be confused with "Friends First", which many people mean by "we are or at least act 100% platonic for a good while before anything non-platonic potentially happens". It would be a better choice.

As for FWB -- I think just about every person who isn't wanting a relationship is open to FWB if the situation's right, technically. Otherwise, they wouldn't be out on the market. However, saying it outright as a set-up can imply that you just have sex on your mind (FWB situations many times just formulate by themselves).

Hey POF, let's add some more to that "Looking for" option, how about that?? Like Non-Platonic friends.. Sure would make it easier for some of us..

I would like that, too. "Friends (Platonic)" and "Friends (Non-Platonic)". Of course 'platonic' is a word that some people may not know, thus confused. I'm sure Markus, the guy who runs the site, wants the site as simple to use as possible. But I'm all for drawing a line in the sand in selections. Of course, he may say, "just choose 'hang out' instead of friends".

And yes, it happened to me to, when I thought we were friends, we did have sex, and all of the sudden she used the "B" word..BOYFRIEND..

I understand what you mean. The biggest bond between you guys was not with stereotypical romance, but a friendship. So 'friends' seems cool. I think you WANTED to keep things cool and as close to 'just friends' as possible. Much less obligations, less headaches of a 'relationship', etc. But it still is a sexually-based (non-platonic) relationship (not to imply 'a relationship') to some degree. You can't have your cake and eat it too if things progress too far, of course. :)

A gal I know (an actual 100% platonic friend btw; like a little sister), was telling me about this guy she liked & hung out with. Well, things progressed with them, but he didn't like the word 'dating' and she wasn't the hugest fan of it either, but not too uncomfortable with it. Here's what I told her:

Whether two people are dating or not is not determined by what they choose to label it. Yep. You're not girlfriend or boyfriend based on what you decide to "call it".

Two people are dating or not based on what they DO. She was sleeping at his place 4 nights a week... had half her clothes there. They never went out on a "formal date", but would hang out at the bar, stay in watch movies, etc. They met each others' parents and had dinner with them several times. It's not that they were trying to use a "more preferable name to call it" or anything... they just DIDN'T want to call it 'dating'. My point is, whether you're dating or not at least, depends on what you and they are doing, and how much of your lives mesh. If your lives start meshing and becomes routine -- you are dating, whether you like it or not.

Yours may not have progressed that much -- but point being, what you call something and what you do can be two different things. Sometimes people call it 'dating' if you just went on one mini-date or something -- which no, you're not datING each other (that requires an established routine at least). And people can take it the opposite way and fear a 'dating' label, despite having their alarm clock, half their clothes, and pictures of their parents at the other person's place after 6 months.
 summerrainva
Joined: 3/5/2010
Msg: 124
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/25/2010 7:39:13 PM
Totaly agree, I wana make sure I. Can trust them and get to know them before getting romanticly involved.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 126
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/26/2010 11:41:02 AM

Anyway, I chose "Hang Out"..It feels weird..Teenagers do hang out..Chill..LOL Why must this be this complicated?..

It's not complicated. :) There's no definition on things with it. It's not dating. It doesn't mean platonic. However, using the same word that DOES mean something you're aren't saying, but argue to mean decisively two very different things, is adding unnecessary complexity. I think anything outside one's comfort zone will be deemed complicated, whether it is or not.

And no, "hang out" isn't a teenage word. "Where were you and so-and-so last weekend?" "Oh, me and so-and-so hung out at BW3 for a while, then went Bob's..." Only 16 year olds say that? If you don't like that, you could say "spent time together", sure.

Totaly agree, I wana make sure I. Can trust them and get to know them before getting romanticly involved.

But if you are going out with a dating prospect, you are romantically involved to some degree, generally speaking. If it's not platonic, you can't label it as JUST friends without contradicting yourself. Why? Because 'friends' by itself in the guy-girl world means purely platonic! "Oh, but you know what I mean, though," you may say, right? Well, actually no I may not know. Some people use the term Friends correctly and want to be PURELY platonic (like cousins)... as a social networking thing in which in the future something 'romantic' or 'non-platonic' can develop. I think that's kind of retarded to knowingly set things up like that, but some people do that.

Others just want to say "Well, we're not dating. Not romantic like no romantic music, candles, or even real dates. So we're just friends!" No, you're not necessarily just friends. Just friends = platonic. Like cousins. Like older bro, little sis.

But being more than just friends, ie. more than platonic, does not require official dates. Come on, common sense! :)
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 127
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/26/2010 2:40:45 PM

It is your job to ask what they exactly mean by that, but from my experience when people say that, you can never be too sure, regardless of how they explain it to you.

Very very good point.

Friends first does imply it can be more, but it doesn't say it can go further either.

VERY good point. Hence, it means you are just friends & only friends *IF* it even is a "beginning". So in essence, it's the same folks saying "I am just open to being just friends, that's it," with the word 'first' meaning they are open to the mere -possibility- of being more than friends with a friend in the future. That's very different than "taking IT slow", because the "it" means something more than just mere friendship.

If he has to keep thinking he's a friend and nothing more, he's going to get used to doing friends things

Yep. Basically "let's be in the friend-zone first". First, that's really odd. Literally wanting that means you're not that attracted to them. Not totally literally meaning that means you're saying one thing, but meaning something else. That is what causes the confusion.

I don't like rushing into couplehood at all. I like to take things slow on an emotional/expectations level. But I'm not going to say "friends first" if I want things low-key. Being just friends means there is no "it" in taking things. You say just friends to end things with someone, or to define things to someone so they don't get the wrong idea that you "like" them.
 RobertKoi
Joined: 11/9/2008
Msg: 129
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/28/2010 8:23:26 AM
Why all the fuzz about this friend shi.t? It's simple: when you look for friends you keep all "doors" open. No responsibility, no attachment and you can walk away anytime even if it hurts the other person. You can always say that you never looked for anything else but "friends". In reality, that's definitely not true. If you ever see somebody who's looking only for that, keep a very cool head. Expect nothing. It's only the agreement that counts anyway, as well as reading the signs - actions speak for themselves.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 130
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/28/2010 8:50:04 AM

IMO - Lets be friends means - Your not good enough i think i can do better. I think in most cases this is true but not all.

Unless you had deep seated esteem issues or bad screening skills, why would you see anything as meaning something like this?

Let me break this down:

Why all the fuzz about this friend shi.t? It's simple: when you look for friends you keep all "doors" open.

Unless/until you want to get serious with anyone - why would you want to close any doors?

No responsibility, no attachment and you can walk away anytime even if it hurts the other person.

Spoken like a true stage 5 clinger. Unless you want to nail someone to the wall out of fear they may not really want to stick around, why would this matter? I know I don't want someone who's not really into being there. I don't expect someone to sign on for three years before I know them in the beginning - unless you are the type that does want this, this stuff isn't going to bother you. No one is responsible for us but ourselves. That post smacks of obligation, which (sorry to inform you) isn't what relationships thrive on.

You can always say that you never looked for anything else but "friends". In reality, that's definitely not true. If you ever see somebody who's looking only for that, keep a very cool head. Expect nothing. It's only the agreement that counts anyway, as well as reading the signs - actions speak for themselves.

Yes - if you are the type that wants commitment before you get a last name, be very careful of those who go any slower or might want to use their heads to discover if there's more to someone before they get real serious.
 WaywardWynde
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 131
view profile
History
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/28/2010 9:26:49 AM
Long and short, it MEANS less than average desire for male/female physical contact.

Everyone is somewhere on the physical desire scale somewhere between 0 and 100. "Friends first" means "friends mostly" and "seldom more than friends". The statement means the person making the statement is somewhere in the 0 to 45 range. It means THEY want someone also in the 0 to 45 range, or at least those in the 50 to 80 range "to understand", and those in the 81 to 100 range to stay clear.

To those in the 0 to 45 range, it means a Washed Out Green Flag ...

To those in the 50 to 80 range, it means a Reddish Flag ...

To those in the 81 to 100 range, it means a sharp Black Flag.

Some people like "Friends First", some people don't. To each their own.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 132
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/28/2010 12:30:16 PM

I guess when I said friends, I meant not to move too fast, and I just figured everyone know what I am thinking.

I think threads like these wouldn't exist if that was the case. Problem is, the word Friends by itself w/o adjectives in the girl-guy world means -platonic-... and also SOME people actually use a matchmaking site with pure platonic intentions or also utilize it for platonic intentions.... thus, if you mean more than platonic, you can't just use the word "Friends" and expect it to be uncomplicated, unfuzzy, and clear to someone. :)

But then it back fired on me a few times, like I tried to kiss her, and ruined everything

Here's the problem with using just the word "friends" to kick things off in a guy-girl situation... it basically allows someone (usually girls) to get company & attention, whether they're attracted to the guy or not, but emphasize "friends" as a shield if she isn't. Its real meaning and slang-meaning-by-some, two VERY different meanings, "allow" them to do the flip-flop game on the fly. MOST (sane) people on a matchmaking type site don't want meet someone to hang-out one-on-one if they think of them just as a big bro or little sis. They want to assume you're a dating prospect, there's attraction, etc.

Someone who knows me a little said it's better for me to use hang out, but she was worried now I will attract the wrong kind..Whatever that means..LOL

No, I don't think you will. You will cause some girls to skip over your profile, if say, they're relationship-hunting.... but that's what you wanted in the first place.

Hang Out does not say anything about being platonic/non-platonic. Friends does. So you at least clear at least minor confusion that way. "Hang Out" being broad-based allows your description to be the focal point of what you're looking for. "Friends" seems at least a little bit contradictory, so it's good to avoid that -- unless you really mean platonic friends and only platonic friends.
 afashionlady
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 135
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/29/2010 4:25:13 AM

However in my mind, a real good friendship is some sort of relationship too..


But a friendship that involves sex is, for many women, more than a friendship sir! Especially when the friend says
Complimenting her after she got ready for her date
...if she's going somewhere with YOU and you're complimenting her then sorry...it's dating. And "some sort of relationship" means....what?

I guess my question would be if someone is insistent about being "just friends", is it because they're a commitment-phobe? They want everything that would technically be considered dating but not using that word? And the moment that the level of friendship requested by the other person who wants to move up and beyond "friends", you say thanks but no thanks and move on? Is it being afraid to commit to something, whatever that something might be (dating, longterm, etc.) a driving force behind a male or female choosing friends or hang out?

If I'm going to be a friend with a guy, and there's sex involved, I won't see him that much. ESPECIALLY if I know that the ulterior motive is to get under my skirt! If we're meeting each other's families, going to movies, doing things together that are more than sex, at my age, it's dating. But let me add not everyone considers it that, I know! I say that then think about a few threads I read recently where either the male or female said "we've just been hanging out, enjoying each other's company , and now I (the one who said no feelings) am having feelings! What do I do?" And these aren't kids--these are folks in their 30's, 40's and 50's who set the "friends" boundaries and then fell into something all on their own.

Can you see someone as just a friend, have sex with them, hang out, do things for months on end, and have NO feelings at all? Is that truly possible? Or does one just suppress those feelings to avoid having hurt feelings when the other person moves on? Or, as I asked above, are you (whoever you would be) that much of a commitment-phobe that you're willing to let someone that you like being around go because you just can't see yourself committed to just them?

And if so...is it because you think the grass is greener with the other date or does it run deeper than that?



damn...what is in my coffee???
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 137
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/29/2010 8:50:13 AM

I stay in a non-platonic friend zone

LOL - non-platonic friend-zone... I know what you mean clearly, thankfully with the non-platonic thrown in there, but it indicates clinging onto the word 'friends'. You don't need to use that term to avoid jumping into a relationship of couple-hood.

but I was told that I "behave" the way that causes her to call me boyfriend.

Yes, because actions speak louder than words! It depends on the frequency that you're seeing a gal, and how you are with her.

But to me those things something that friends would do.

Maybe a boyFRIEND? ;)

Complimenting her after she got ready for her date, pulling her car home when she broke down these kind of things. I was even called a player, and a very good one, witch honestly hurt pretty bad..

Yes, you are clearly not in any friend-zone if it's your date too with her. Now, if it isn't, and you have sexual relations with her at the same time, you are FRIENDS WITH BENEFITS. That's what that means. You develop a level of friendship... it's clear you both can see other people... and you also have sexual relations on the side. When a girl reluctantly goes with it, or loses interest in just being FWB, and realizes that you like her less than she's into you -- she'll be apt to call you a player. And she'll have the right to call you that if the FWB drags on too long, and it wasn't that you didn't want to rush into things, but you just like having the *convenience* of having your cake and eating it (out) too. :)

I think FWB is fine for a while, but if you're spending too much time with them and being a part of their lives while the sexual relations is meshed in there -- you ARE being a boyfriend, in an open-relationship instead.

But do you LOVE her? Do you see yourself married to her?

You don't have to love her and see yourself marrying her to have a commitment. Come on! :) If you require that, then yes, you're a commitment-phobe. You like to play the field -- not just when juggling dating prospects in the getting-to-know-ya-phase, which IS fine... but extending it to "convenience relationships" -- where you want to play house as the BF but want to keep it FWB... because you don't want to turn down other potential sexy opportunities.

Basically, the "we're just hanging out", "we're just seeing each other" phase can last for so-long if you frequently spend time with them and sexual relations are peppered in there, before it gets weird. Sure, if she's a player type gal and you're in your "stay single, san diego" mode too, it can last longer.

You use the word 'friends' to try and avoid any commitment. Try backing off on the frequency of hanging out with a gal instead. Actions speak louder than words. If you want to develop a real friendship over time, just be friends -- no sexual relations. Stop trying to have your cake and eat it too :)

I know you're probably thinking "What? We're supposed to be a couple after 2 weeks??" No, not necessarily -- especially if she knows you take it slow. But you can't "take it slow" and fix her car, spend a lot of time with her, etc. The type & level of relationship you have with someone, anyone, is defined by what you do -- that overrides any label you've previously given it.
 afashionlady
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 138
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 3/29/2010 8:34:46 PM

You don't have to love her and see yourself marrying her to have a commitment. Come on! :) If you require that, then yes, you're a commitment-phobe. You like to play the field -- not just when juggling dating prospects in the getting-to-know-ya-phase, which IS fine... but extending it to "convenience relationships" -- where you want to play house as the BF but want to keep it FWB... because you don't want to turn down other potential sexy opportunities.

THIS. That's how I see it--it's a convenience and it's easier to call it a friend versus dating because then you have to take responsibility and ownership of it.


Basically, the "we're just hanging out", "we're just seeing each other" phase can last for so-long if you frequently spend time with them and sexual relations are peppered in there, before it gets weird. Sure, if she's a player type gal and you're in your "stay single, san diego" mode too, it can last longer.

You use the word 'friends' to try and avoid any commitment. Try backing off on the frequency of hanging out with a gal instead. Actions speak louder than words. If you want to develop a real friendship over time, just be friends -- no sexual relations. Stop trying to have your cake and eat it too :)


That's what I've said to my friend--over and over again. It's not a matter of semantics, it's not a matter of "it's confusing"--if you use the word "friend" you're purposefully avoiding commitment and tying up someone else's time who might want a commitment down the road.


I know you're probably thinking "What? We're supposed to be a couple after 2 weeks??" No, not necessarily -- especially if she knows you take it slow. But you can't "take it slow" and fix her car, spend a lot of time with her, etc. The type & level of relationship you have with someone, anyone, is defined by what you do -- that overrides any label you've previously given it.


THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!

Just because you're dating longterm does NOT mean it ends in marriage! I have an uncle who's dated the same woman for more than 10 years...there's no marriage in their future. They see each other, she hangs out at family functions and they are doing great. They don't live together and knowing the 2 of them, there's some kind of love there but it's doubtful it's been said outright. When my aunt died in her home, his GF was there--he called her and told her what happened and she dropped everything to come and help us try to dig her house out (hoarding is a horrible thing). If he comes somewhere and she's not there, we ask where is she--she is normally there. He treats her with complete respect, doesn't cheat and is always mindful of what's going on in her life--but he'd never call her "his friend". That is denigrating the whole relationship, and he isn't that kind of guy.

What's funny is that my guy friend accused me of being biased cause I'm female. But if a guy can get it then I know it's nothing to do with being male or female.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 141
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/2/2010 2:32:41 PM

Hm..I just don't see why {spending tons of time with them, meshing lives + sexual relations = couplehood}?? I am thinking this is a female I like spending time with, she is _____(fill in the blank).

You CAN call it by another (non-contradictory) term all you want. However, you are what you DO, not what label you want to put on it. Sure, there are gray areas, but you're a couple if you spend tons of time, mesh lives, and have sexual relations. That IS what being a couple means, and within it, it can vary from serious to not-that-serious in terms of boundaries, expectations for the future, etc.

why can't she just be happy the way things are, without starting to be boyfriend/girlfriend?

Here, you're missing my point... You and she CAN be happy the way things are. I'm just saying, whether you like it or not, the way things are that you like IS couplehood ... IF you are spending enough time together & mesh lives and have a sexual relationship. I know you don't like the term, but that doesn't mean in reality you're not a couple on some level.

TO ME, that's what friends do {spend a lot of time with her, fix her car, etc}...Dare I say, maybe it's the European in me??

Close friends. Close friends, yes. Same with boyfriends, too. If you have a close, sexual, on-going relationship with someone, you are a couple to whatever degree. That's what a couple MEANS. It doesn't necessarily mean it can't be a still-open relationship to the opposite sex... You're trying to just call it FWB, even though you may not like that term. One could say "What about having a close FWB?" The difference between FWB & being a couple in an open relationship is the closeness & frequency of time spent together. If you're in an open relationship but don't spend that much time with them -- you're FWB. If you mesh lives, but still mutually "keep options open" you're in an open relationship.

I don't force nothing on anybody..I could say the same thing about her..She likes spending time with me/us, she trust me with her kids, her address, and the sex is just an icing on that cake that we BOTH eating.

I'm not implying in any way you're forcing anything on anyone. Having your cake & eating it too, what I meant by that, was that you can't say you're not a couple, yet live the life of a couple, but not the term if you don't like it (and so you don't scare off any other potentials or HER if she doesn't like the avoidance of the term).

You are what you DO. You can give a thinly veiled term to whatever the situation it is with a woman all you like, as long as it doesn't contradict how you really are (like calling yourselves cousins or 'just friends'). I don't know your situation entirely there though. You could be just FWB if you aren't terribly close but hang out... and there is interpretive gray area for that between FWB & open relationship.

Point being, if you are being like a boyfriend (spending time together and having a sexual relationship too), you don't have any room to object to a gal after it becomes routine and you're meshing lives to call you a boyfriend.

Look at it this way: When you're seeing someone, see them more, and you begin to mesh lives... you don't have to have a "TALK" to make things "official" that you are a couple to some degree. You are what you do, and that's obvious. It's REVERSED. You can choose to have a "TALK" to define what the relationship's boundaries are (we can still see other people, not escalate things among family members, etc). But by default, it's understood by human emotions, just like it's not cool to say to a girl "I like you, you're Phat!", it's also understood among everyone normal person's emotions that if the two people's actions in a relationship that is sexual with lots of time spent is routine, that you are a couple.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 142
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/2/2010 8:12:28 PM

"friends" should be each paying their own portion of the "date".

Yep. If someone wants to play the "friends first" card, then at first, no guy should have to pay for a dinner any more than he should pay for his buddy's dinner or his buddy's girlfriend's dinner.

In the real world you get to know a person...his history...his face...his body...his friends...his workplace...his family...his school....BEFORE you make this declaration of DATING them.

I would disagree with this. Meeting close friends & family & co-workers is actually a big step in an already established dating situation, which brings into established relationship mode. I wouldn't say "Yeah, Sally seems cool. But I have to meet her family before I start dating her...". I would say that I would do that before making our dating relationship a serious, established one on the road to long-term-ville, sure.

But what you say brings up something interesting. There's a difference between being friends first in the "Real World" vs via a pre-meditated match-making process (like online). I think the "friends first" idea was drummed up by some not-too-bright person who realized that many great relationships tend to spawn from someone they knew decently well before they ever went on a date of any variety. It usually spawned from a co-worker or someone in their circle of friends who they got to know... then something happened after that....

... so they come up with the idea of pre-meditating a situation in a *match-making* environment to re-create "being just friends", just like their co-worker/friend-circle Bob or Sally of their past was before they started dating them. PROBLEM with that is, they didn't kick things off as a match-making situation with Bob or Sally of the past -- that changes everything. Otherwise, you're just role-playing as "just friends", because you BOTH KNOW you've got more-than-friends emotions & intentions at kick-off, and it can be weird for many people to jump through those re-created hoops.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 145
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/4/2010 11:27:48 AM

So, I should say, I really enjoy her company, but I should back off so she doesn't think I am her boyfriend??

In some sense, absolutely. You should distance yourself in terms of time spent to avoid -becoming- a boyfriend if you don't want to become one. That's not to say you have a distant relationship with that person -- you just don't let things go out of hand in spending too much time with that person if there's a sexual relationship woven in there, if you don't want to become an actual couple.

she could say, I don't know what exactly you think it's going on, but if you come to my family gathering, than you are the boyfriend. Because to me I am not.

I would not go to a family gathering of a girl if I did not want to be her boyfriend but I knew I spent a lot of time with her and wanted things just to be on a non-committed level and able to "bang other chicks".

Hey Mom, this is Zuglo, a good friend of mine..How hard is to say that??

It's not hard to say... but saying that means "this is platonic friend of mine. no different than suzy's husband. I could get a guy's # in front of him, kiss another guy in front of him, here at this family gathering, so don't worry if I were to. platonic." Question is -- is that accurate? It can be weird to have a one-on-one male/female friend if both are single and hetero, especially introducing to parents. They're going to think something's really going on or someone likes another person in MOST (not all) circumstances (see ladder theory).

There are people wanting commitment as soon as they know your last name!

Oh I agree! People want rush into things stupidly, sure. But there are also people who never want commitment but want to bang you, spend ongoing tons of time with you, hang out at your family gatherings, but also at the same time have steaming hot sex with a someone who comes into town occasionally and scope the bars & online for new tail.

I disagree about not needing the TALK, to make things official

Here's the thing... If you end up seeing that you're spending tons of time with them and do have a sexual relationship woven in there, AND you don't want to be a couple of any sorts but still do what you're doing, you should have a talk with them about NOT being a couple, so they don't get the wrong idea -- because what you'd be doing screams walking into couplehood. Also couple that with constant reminders if you sense them thinking otherwise (and good luck with that). Now, when you DO want to 'officially' be a couple after that, then yeah, I would agree THEN you would need a talk. OR if all that wasn't going on, but you were in a gray zone with someone you're seeing over too long a period and actions don't clearly speak for themselves, then yeah, you should have a talk about it then too (just like anything else that's unclear for too long).

To me there is a difference saying she is my friend, or saying she is JUST a friend..See, JUST a friend, we don't mesh lives together.

I agree there's a difference, but the difference is JUST a friend, in reference to the opposite sex, means platonic -- no sexual relations -- like a cousin -- like Bob who lives down the street. You know, that kind of thing. But you can mesh lives like a really close friend. HOWEVER, I do see your point and it would depend on the context. You could say "just a friend", if they ALREADY KNEW it was platonic, to mean "not a close friend, our lives don't mesh", yes. Just saying when it comes to the opposite sex and they don't know your relationship from adam, saying that will mean platonic in most contexts.

Meets someone that she trust with her child, etc...So, they start to hang out, why is that meshing their life together??

Oh, it wouldn't be. And I'm not saying just because you have sex and are most likely going to see each other again, doesn't mean you're a couple, either. However, you're not merely "friends", either. My other point was that if/when your lives do start meshing and there is a sexual relationship woven in there -- yeah, you're becoming a couple. Don't want that and want to avoid someone getting the wrong idea for very very good reason? Don't mesh lives and keep it on a hang-out level (with them knowing that you're not looking to be Dating anyone officially or anything). If you want to spend more time with them because you really dig them as a person, you're walking into dangerous territory that the mere label "friend" cannot save, if you want to spend tons of time with them, mesh lives and keep it sexual woven in there at the same time, too.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 147
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/5/2010 9:47:28 AM

OK, now wait a minute..That sound pretty bad..Not sure how to explain, but when I have a friend, and we are on a same page about marriage, meaning none of us really crazy about it, but enjoy each other company, I don't see a need to scope anywhere.

I know, I made it sound "bad" because I was taking the church-clothes off of it that try and make it "sound better", to shed light on what it CAN -easily- mean, though. Wasn't implying that was someone's intentions with a pure dirty mind, but hey, you wouldn't be violating rules if & when that will happen if time goes on for too long. Your comment -- if you don't see a need to scope -- then you are settling in with her to some degree, and it is something more than just hanging out. And what's up with marriage or bust? You two are casually dating but willing to continue with it and keep it open because she is marriage hunting, and she'll take what she can get with you. I can understand of being scared of commitment with HER if she's got her eyes on a wedding chapel, but honestly, don't call her "a friend" if you're casually dating -- that's where miscommunication comes in.

I even was asked why do I feel like that? I don't know..Can't explain.. Young daughter is the number one reason, again, it's another story.

No, I understand. You probably have good reasons why you don't want the relationship to get serious with her. And if she's looking to get hitched and you're not, that's definitely a good reason to not get serious... but it's a better reason to not see each other much or cut off any sexual relations for at least a good while to make sure she doesn't have issues about it. It's not just about you-you-you, ya know? You're doing the smart thing not wanting the relationship to be amped up into something serious, but at the same time, you can't live it out to hearts content that suits you, knowing she wants more. I would distance things and keep it on a REAL friends level... she wants more than casual dating, but if you spend too much time, you're doing one thing and saying another which leads to frustration when she's not on the same page emotionally.

I am sorry, but who is a platonic friend, and who isn't, that's really nobodies business.

Oh yes it is! Try saying that to a girlfriend. "Oh, that's Sally..." "Yeah? So Sally's JUST a friend...?" "I'm sorry honey, but who is a platonic friend and who isn't is nobody's business." :) Okay, okay, that's obvious there. But actually, it IS even other people's business in particular circumstances. If you're at a gathering and you come in with a girl, and a girl is more than a friend (non-platonic), that IS what they need to know -- and all they need to know technically. They don't want to talk shop about chicks in front of her if she's non-platonic... or introduce you to some other gal if that's the case. Details are nobody's business.. how serious it is is nobody's business, but people close to you or she need to know.

So, do the parents suspect anything? It just makes it more interesting..

Yes, weird... thus interesting. :)

Yes I realize that {dangerous territory}.. But mostly because she doesn't take me seriously when I do have a TALK with her about couple hood. Is that my fault?

She doesn't take you seriously about talking about couplehood because of the situation that you're comfortable with but 90%+ of the population is not. Hey, I'm not looking to get hitched. Things aren't black n white of on-the-road-to-marriage-or-bust when it comes to the dating world. But yeah, what you've pressed to define things -- which is GOOD at least -- still doesn't make it unweird. Just because you're nixing out candles and romantic motifs does not mean you're just friends. In fact, many many people develop serious relationships without all that, and date on an easy-going level for quite some time. That doesn't take away from being a couple. Point being, you're wanting to experience the couplehood thing, but you don't want it official. You can't expect someone who wants to get hitched to be internally okay with that, or to take you seriously about it...

It sounds like she's in a classic situation where she's putting up with it because she likes you as a person, but it will boil over... Don't just think about yourself when you're dating a gal (yes, even casually if it continues). If you meet parents and you're casually dating, you're fooling only yourself to call it "merely friends". I say if you're not comfortable being a couple full-circle (you like it 3 quarters and just calling it friends), and she's marriage hunting, don't be that close with her. You have to put other people's feelings in perspective, otherwise it gets hairy.
 MissyTrouble
Joined: 7/15/2008
Msg: 149
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/6/2010 3:20:22 PM
holy cow .. people can pick something to DEATH!!

I just want the chance to really get to know a man.. FIRST!!

i mean.. we see a bad boy.. we KNOW we are attracted.. we see mr good boy.. and are not sure. It takes a lil more you know!!

i have absolutely become attracted to "nice guy" types while working with them.. or hanging out in groups before.

my goal is a "nice guy" type..
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 150
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/6/2010 6:10:05 PM

I just want the chance to really get to know a man.. FIRST!!

That has nothing to do it, though. :) When you go out on a date, you get to know them. When you take it casually meeting up, but aren't trying to be platonic (just friends), you get to know them. What do you say to someone you don't want to be just friends with when you first see them? "I don't need to know anything about you -- just kiss me dammit, and never tell me a damn thing!" ? lol

i mean.. we see a bad boy.. we KNOW we are attracted..

Yep... that means you're attracted....

we see mr good boy.. and are not sure.

That means you're not attracted... (not sure = not attracted at this point in time)....

It takes a lil more you know!!

Which is exactly what is the problem. :) If you ran into a cute guy you liked and he told you he's not sure if he finds you attractive... but maybe you could be if he got to know you... would you want to hang out with him any more if there were other cool, cute guys that you know did at least find you attractive? Who wants to deal with someone who isn't attracted to them? The "*" at the end of "... but I could be later on if I got to know ya" won't cut it, sorry - lol. You wouldn't like it either. It's a waste of time!

Find someone you at least find attractive to off the bat, otherwise you've got a massively high % of leading someone on or frustrating someone and wasting each others' time!
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 151
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/6/2010 7:21:09 PM
When you go out on a date, you get to know them. When you take it casually meeting up, but aren't trying to be platonic (just friends), you get to know them

You only get to know them as well as they want you to when trying to impress. I think what most women are saying is they want to know what they're dealing with from a man who's not trying to close the deal, impress, get laid, whatever. They want the "pressure" of the sales pitch revomed.

There's got to be a way to get to know a person for who they are without the whole "act" of who they want you to think they are to get the prize. We like a guy who IS XYZ, not who ACTS like XYZ because he wants us to think that's who he is. No good comes from getting too involved or too attached to someone without this information (unless you like winging it and a lot of short term relationships).
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 152
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/6/2010 8:19:09 PM

You only get to know them as well as they want you to when trying to impress.

True, but when you're meeting someone off a match-making site or the bar, where you want to meet up with them because you find them attractive, saying "friends first" is not going to cause any hesitation in trying to impress. In fact, a "we COULD be more than friends if I'm attracted to you enough..." that "Friends First" implies, actually would make many want to impress even more. I think the setting of a casual meet-up itself can calm any potential "impress impress impress" mentality, but the point is -- saying "Friends First" has nothing to do with someone wanting to impress the other person more or less.

I think what most women are saying is they want to know what they're dealing with from a man who's not trying to close the deal, impress, get laid, whatever. They want the "pressure" of the sales pitch revomed.

Yes, I agree they want the pressure of the sales pitch removed. They don't want to feel like it's some reality blind-date show. I totally understand. That's what a casual meet-up and not really a date per se does. Now many women can mean they just want to take it laid-back and reserved, sure. Many others don't mean a variety of other things, or just utilize it to mean "I don't know yet, don't get too excited".

Point is, the setting of where & how you meet up during the getting-to-know-you phase can prevent or increase a guy (or girl) to be in "impress impress impress" mode. It doesn't at all require a role-play of "just friends and only friends" to keep someone from jumping one's bones. A daytime date, saying you like to take things slow physically, etc. says that in a very short & sweet way, without the misdirection of "friends first" -- which by itself says (and others mean what it says) that you just want to be friends. Hey, going slow is fine, but being just friends and not anything more than friends is weird to most people. And I agree -- many people who say "friends first", don't want to be -just- friends (purely platonic) in the raw form, but some do.

But I understand -- saying that you want to take things slow does mean, hey, I like to get to know someone before really getting into things... a preventative measure so things don't rush. Sure. Things can rush and you'll still get to know them just as well, but you may by that time be a 'couple' of sorts which you may not want. However, using the phrase 'friends first' (ie just friends first) can misdirect people to mean "we're not only taking it slow... there is no 'it'!"
 Mathostx
Joined: 7/26/2009
Msg: 153
view profile
History
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/7/2010 8:55:35 AM

To me, you don't have a relationship until you've also developed a deep connection with someone.


What she said right there is probably the biggest thing to it.


Friendships take a considerable time to develop... you don't "instantly" become a friend any more than one would "instantly" become a relationship.


Now, I can argue against that. It can and does happen. Rarely it seems, but it does happen. I can think of maybe 4 or 5 people that I've gone out with or dated, since I started dating, that the connection was just there from the beginning. Considering that's been over a span of about 16 years, well you can see bout how often that happens. Now a couple of em had been aquaintences (sp) from work or group of friends.

Now as a reply on topic to the thread, yeah I tend to agree it's usually a safety net to make the person feel better if there's no spark or things don't go anywhere or there is no attraction to the other party. BUT, some times it's just a desire to possibly take things slow to get to know the person. Word of warning with this though, if you actually say go to a movie or to dinner or something with the person, and the opportunity is given to make a move, do it, otherwise you're friend zoned. Because when that happens they may like you or think you're cute, but, they're gauging whether you're interested in them.

From personal experience I've had 1 or 2 people do that, say they wanted to be friends first. We went to a movie, went dutch on it, after the movie ended up hanging out, she put me in situations where I had ample opportunity to make a move on her. Since I had just been told the night before she just wanted to be friends first, I didn't do so. Got friend zoned. Would it of gone different had moves been made? Most likely.

But yeah it is possible to be friends first with someone, you just gotta make sure to create attraction off the bat, show confidence, if you're interested in em maybe give a kiss after the first or second date.
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