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 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 155
What does Friends First really mean?Page 5 of 12    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)

BTW, I heard that one before, for a life of me I don't get it. Why would she want a "bad boy"? I mean I know it's a slang, but still..

Yeah, "bad boy" is a vague term. It can mean the classic "tough guy", "biker guy", musician, bartender, etc. who's an a$$hole most of the time and has a big ego, but a particular demographic of chicks go ga-ga over that "banned from meeting the parents" kinda guy. The other "bad boy" means a guy who can be seen as a guy who pick up a gal pretty easily... the player-type if you will. Not necessarily the an a$$hole, but "bad" because he won't want to settle for 'her' because he can get a better gal (to a hot girl, he's not necessarily a "bad boy").

"Nice Guy", as that girl up there referred to, is a guy they don't know if they're attracted to or not, but is great on paper and wants to give it a chance, because the bad boys were either (a) too much an a$$hole, or (b) just in a better league of attraction and she couldn't get him (hence, he was 'bad' for not liking her).

You should have...I mean how else can you find out what she really wants?

By what she stated in the first place by drawing the line in the sand -- "Friends First"! :) But I understand what you're saying... don't take their word for it, because some gals don't mean what they say. In the whole "dating world", I will admit that "Friends First" many times (certainly not ALL the time), is the least of the cloud of smoke put up there. However, if she does put "Friends First" out there, seems wholesome, and she displays no signs of attraction, it can be hard to jump out there to make a move. Many times though, if you are even going out, that by ITSELF means you will see some signs of attraction coming your way, so you can at least make a mild move that is not "just friends", even though that's the warm-n-fuzzy term she used.

It's all a judgment call in that situation if you were to make any sort of move. Continuing to hang out with a girl in the Friend Zone with zero sexual tension, will basically give you Zero chance getting out of it, if continued after 2 outings.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 157
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/8/2010 11:20:23 AM

That's right..in the SAND...LOL..So, that "line" could be erased very easily..

Nice play on words...
Sally: I said NO! No means no! Why did you put your hands up my skirt? I firmly drew a line in the sand!
Bob: Well, that line can be erased easily... with my hands, too!

Than again you could read her displays wrong, than it might be awkward, but you two might laugh it off, and than at least you know, right?

That's the problem with someone saying "Friends First". If their tone and attitude flows with it being platonic just as the phrase actually says, you'll scratch your head over why she's even wanting to go out one-on-one. She'd have to be a dream, IMO to have it worth not wasting your time only to face the high-liklihood of disappointment, if you're not looking to just find a new actual Friend.

JUST friends zone, when you got no chance, don't even try, than there is a FRIEND zone, when you see some signs that you should try.

Gee, you're breaking it down to two segments. Basically, there's the Friend Zone and everything else (they are genuinely attracted to you). You really like to re-define Friends in the guy-girl world, don't ya? :) Why not keep it simple? You define a gal as a friend if there's nothing going on between you two, nor awaiting to be, except on a strict platonic level. I use the word "JUST" to stress the fact that there's nothing under the radar (like benefits or crushes or whatever). I think people use the word "Friend" -because- they know it means platonic -- ie "nothing's going on"... because it gives a sense of security of lack of expectations, drama, etc. I gripe because in that case it's falsely using a term as cover for one's comfy-zone (and can cause confusion).

Some call it a HANG OUT zone, so I'll use that..LOL

Yes... good idea! But I wouldn't call that a Zone, though, but instead more like a situation that may be between you and a gal. Hanging Out would be more of a phase within the Dating Zone (even though you may not be officially Dating).

The popular term Friend Zone or Dating Zone uses Zone to mean where you're placed in their mind of -liking- you -- not how exactly they wish to handle the situation.

I like the "zones" just as opposite sides. Are they -actually- into me or aren't they? The zones are not about what they want with me in the future or looking for with me, blah blah -- but more of a categorization of if they like ya, if they don't. If they are, (you're in their black book), then it can be interesting to see as to how much eagerness they have, what they're comfortable with (just hang out or jumping into Dating mode quick?), etc.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 159
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/8/2010 5:13:52 PM

Well, here we go again...In THAT case no means no, and that line can not be erased!!

My point was that if she said "I'm drawing this line in the sand", it doesn't mean it can be erased. Therefore, just because someone draws a line in the sand doesn't mean "oh, it's sand, it can be erased easily!" My ridiculous fictional situation was pointing out how it was a play on the word 'sand'. :) In other words, drawing a line in the sand doesn't mean it's meant to be changed. It's about setting boundaries (like in a sandbox, hence the term).

"Sure we can get naked and have fun friend".

But that isn't JUST the word 'friend'. I have no problem with that. By your rationale, if a girl you've been hanging with and fooled around with said "I wanted to tell you that I think we should just be friends," you would be confused. Your definition of just being friends could be non-platonic or platonic, since using "friends" solo doesn't imply being platonic to you.

I think I know where you (and others) get the "Using the term 'friends' by itself doesn't mean it's platonic" thing. I'm being honest about this, too:

If I'm dealing with a gal that I'm hanging with and I make reference about some gal in convo, I'd refer to her as "my friend Sally", even though Sally may be in my "black book" and not JUST a friend. If I'm not dating a gal, but getting to know her and we start to hang out, I may refer to her in convo with a buddy of mine as a 'friend' -- although that is vague -- but if he knows she and I are hanging out, then he "knows what I mean". I wouldn't do that really, unless said girl was pretty much meaningless in my life in terms of dating potential. I would instead say "Sally, this girl I'm going out with next week" or something along those lines if they didn't know, and just "Sally" if they did (no label required).

BUT when you sit someone down and say "Let's just be friends", that's different, right? You have to admit that. Now why is it different? Because you're leveling with -them-, about you and she... it's a different context. So if I tell the girl beforehand that I want to be "Friends First", it's in that same context -- you're laying out how you want to be with them, just the same as breaking it to someone. You're not making reference to someone about someone else -- it's you and them.

Hence, defining things as "friends" without an add-on like "more than" or "with benefits" or "who run around naked and make out", etc., when said to her about you and her means platonic in the same sense as sitting someone down -after- hanging out and saying "let's just be friends".

Point being, at least when you're talking to THEM directly (or audience in a profile directly), if you are going to give it a label, keep in mind that it's in the same context as if you sit someone down you've been hanging out with or seeing a bit and draw a labeling line. That's why when I see "friends first", it's the same as if after I was hanging with a girl and she said "let's just be friends".
 afashionlady
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 160
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/9/2010 4:35:40 AM
LOL...you and Zuglo could go on and on and onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Neither of you is gonna make the other change their minds.

Confident, if a man or a woman absolutely refused to consider dating someone and will always relegate that person to "friend" status, they won't EVER be open to the idea of saying that the person is or could be more. They will spend their lives friending men or women and never moving beyond that. And maybe, for whatever jacked up reason they might have, that's ok. Zuglo and others who won't/can't consider the word dating as a viable, realistic term for what they're doing are perfectly within their right to do so. Will these people ever be happy? According to Zuglo, he is quite content with not having anything concrete--it's the women he deals with who aren't. In his mind, they have the "problem" and he is more than willing to let them go--and apparently with no regrets. You won't get him to see anything else but what he sees.

Zuglo, realize that saying all you want is a "friend" will sometimes cause you to not attract women. I see your profile now says hang out. For some women, that's the kiss of death and no matter what you say in your profile they won't read that far. Yes, for you and your situation, that is probably the best choice. You can't argue about it or suggest that POF change their types of relationships cause well...it's their site. What you can do is seek out other women who are seeking the same thing and realize that perhaps your definition of "dating" is so restrictive that you could be missing out on a woman who thinks like you. And understand that even with your very detailed explanation of what you think is friends is really a friend with benefits (the sex part, like it or not, IS the benefit). What you've described, someone going out to movies, meeting your child and family...in the traditional sense, Europe or not, it is dating. The "I'm from Europe so that's what we do" card is played out my friend...you've been here long enough that you can't use that one any longer. And Zuglo, consider that your pond has grown stagnant and you need to fish in other waters!

The 2 of you can spend another 5 pages having these long, lovely discussoins or go to your respective corners and understand and respect each others point of view...and move on.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 163
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/9/2010 11:20:02 AM

WRONG..Because than she become a JUST friend..The word JUST, transform my brain, and erases all the sexual thoughts about her.

I know you see it that way...it was that if you were to use the same rationale as "Friends First", where the line is drawn in the (hardened) sand in the -beginning- instead of having a sit-down conversation later, you'd have to be confused. My point being, you're looking at it too differently -- both are lines in the sand. I understand though, you're taking the initial line in the sand ("Friends First") as being actual sand. But here's another kicker -- "Friends First" -- implies JUST FRIENDS by the phrase alone. I know, I know, any -beginning- line in the sand COULD be more treated like real sand (changeable) than a later sit-down talk, sure. But my point is, "Friends First" does mean JUST friends, regardless of -potential- slang-use they may be employing.... it clearly means "just" friends, because of the "first" at the end. It means "Just Friends for Now, maybe more than friends later". How much weight does that "maybe" carry? And for how long? Is it during the first meet-up, but nixed when walked to the car if they like you? Does it mean being just friends for x-amount of dates or hang-outs until they feel like it (god forbid one gets themselves in that situation)? OR is it altogether not meaning what it says, but a slang term for cover just to mean not getting serious, taking it slow emotionally? That is why I just say, "Hey, use Friends First if you mean JUST friends for an indefinite period of time before any possibility of being more than friends... otherwise, just say 'take it slow', 'just hang out first' or whatever. Vagueness is still there, but little if any misdirection."

BUT when you sit someone down and say "Let's just be friends", that's different, right? You have to admit that.

Yes..There is a word JUST again..

Okay, here's an example without the just, to make my point clear (about using only the word friends). "I got to thinking about us and all that, and I came to a realization: I want to be friends... is that okay?" Now, you may say 'well, we ARE friends, ya know...', but you still know what friends by itself means. Now, if you guys mutually labeled your 'situation' as FWB, then it would beg the question of "You mean without the benefits?" But with that aside, if there was no label put on anything, you two were just hanging out, fooling around... casually seeing each other, etc... or maybe platonic friends for years, but moved it into something sexual, too -- what she'd be saying would be loud and clear. Just emphasizes that. "Friends First" says "just" due to the "first". Choosing "Friends" instead of "Hang-Out" on a profile says "No, not just hanging out and keeping things emotionally on the DL... but just Friends."

Even tho this is a dating site, not everyone is here to find a wife/husband.

But that is a moot point, though. This is about being in the Friend Zone vs not being in that Friend Zone. Not being in the Friend Zone does not mean you're looking to get married. You can still casually date or see each other while not being an actual couple. You could have romantic encounters and call it a day. Just because someone realizes that they're more than just a friend, doesn't mean they're officially dating, nor wife/husband hunting. The problem is about defining things between you and someone as JUST Friends adding confusion (just also meaning w/o any other adjectives -- merely the word 'friends'; solo). Because although some people use "Friends First" or even "Friends" as slang to mean more than that, many others don't and go by what it says or very very close to it. "Hang Out" is there for a reason, and in any explanation "Friends First" will only misdirect if you're not looking to be just friends at first (if there even is a second phase).

PS: Sally? Oh, that's my sock-puppet's name! LOL -- I use the term Sally because nobody names a kid Sally hardly anymore -- just a hypothetical female character.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 5/19/2005
Msg: 164
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/9/2010 11:49:28 AM
I don't understand this whole thing about "friends first" myself.
I honestly don't go out with people or hang around people that I
don't consider my friends. If I meet you and we like each other and
we start going out, I just assume we're friends and it can either go
further into a relationship or it will stay at a friendship.

I think saying "friends first" puts you in that "I'm not really sure
but we'll see how it goes" zone. If I'm looking for someone and I
have LTR relationship, it stands to reason that's what I'm looking for
and I'm surely not going to enter into a LTR with someone I don't
consider a "friend".

Seems like a simple thing thats just gotten complicated. I don't think
it helps that people have different understandings of what it means either.

I also don't like it when people say "I'm not in a hurry", "I'm taking things
slow", or my personal favorite "I'm not going to settle" or anything else
like that. I'm pretty sure you never say that to
someone you meet and REALLY like...and why is it necessary to say it
to someone you're not sure of?

Of course that's just my opinion. I guess I've been online and out there
long enough to sometimes realize there really is something between the lines.
 cinsav
Joined: 6/10/2009
Msg: 165
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/9/2010 1:49:12 PM
Friends first...it seems rather obvious, and in the real world it is. But when you meet someone online, what does "start with a friendship" mean? Who pays when you go out, what sort of contact (hand holding, hugging, kissing?) does a friendship entail? How long should the party who wants to start a relationship wait...men seem to think they will end up in the "friend zone" if romance doesn't happen right away. Do you agree?


I don't waste my time with "friends first" women. I'm not interested in being just another one of your buddies. I am interested in being your romantic interest - which is ABOVE the friends zone. I am interested in DATING you, not hanging out like you're one of the guys.

Men are correct when they assume they'll end up in the friends zone if romance doesn't happen in very short order. Women KNOW if they're going to sleep with you within the first few moments of meeting you. Women KNOW if they're going to date you within the first few moments of meeting you.

Most women are, by nature, affectionate creatures who crave romance from the men they're interested in. Thus, if you're not getting a good night kiss by the end of the first or second date (notice I said first or second DATE - not your first coffee meeting) then you've pretty much been put in the friends category.

Women AND men who demand friends first have issues. Sorry if I've stepped on some of your toes, but it's true.

For me personally. I read a profile that demands friends first - I hit the back button... I don't even waste my time. I don't expect any physical contact after the first coffee meeting... I don't expect any real affection after the first date.... But if I'm not at least getting a good, good night kiss and a little hand holding after the second date? I'm gone. I don't waste my time on a 3rd or 4th date. There's no point - she's already put me in the friends category and will sooner or later hit me with the "you're a really great guy... but...." So I just cut it off sooner than later and put my energies on someone else.

Let me add... I think it is critical that you're BEST FRIENDS with your partner. But there is a HUGE difference in being your buddy and being your romantic interest. Huge difference. Again, as I said at the start of this post, I don't want to be your "friend" ... I want to be the guy you're dating. HUGE HUGE HUGE difference.
 afashionlady
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 166
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/9/2010 11:14:56 PM

Going to the movies, meeting child and family IS dating???


Do you let EVERY woman you meet get to know your family? I sure as heck don't--they have to be someone that I've invested some time and energy in getting to know first.


So, the guy never meets the other guy child and family, or the two guys are dating, and they don't even know it?? Or is it apply to the male-female only?


My quote applies to anyone. If it's 2 guys/2 women/male-female--whatever. If you're seeing someone and they aren't someone that you consider important in your life, why have the family meet them? The last man that I dated that had a teenager didn't introduce me to her until we had been seeing each other for more than 3 months. I was perfectly fine with that--I'm a firm believer of the idea that single parents should limit contact with their kids.

PS...you're a grown up...you're the one who decided to put hang out on your profile.
 RobertKoi
Joined: 11/9/2008
Msg: 168
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/10/2010 6:34:10 AM
"What does Friends First really mean?"
------------
- Please, please, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease let me insert my tiny wiener inside your vagina? *smile*
 shomesomethin
Joined: 5/4/2007
Msg: 169
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/10/2010 7:14:55 AM
Friends First could mean one of several things:
1) She doesn't want you to think she's easy pickin's.
2)She wants to see what you look like in person, and see if your profile is accurate.
3)She wants to find out if you can afford her tastes/wants/needs, in a relationship.
4)She wants to learn more about you.
5) She wants to refrain from repeating past mistakes.
6) She wants to find out if you can financially support her.
7) She wants to find out how "user friendly" you are.
8) She wants to see if you have WELCOME stamped on your forehead.
9) She wants to get an idea of how long it will take to turn you into a whining, sniveling pvssywhipped little b1tch.

 afashionlady
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 170
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/10/2010 7:36:33 AM
If she want to meet my family, why not?


It doesn't matter what the person you're dating wants...when it comes to that. That's not a demand to be made. That's a choice to be decided by you and if they want, by them. *I* decide if a guy gets to meet the family...not him. And that's also something that, when brought up, if he doesn't express an interest then you move on.

[quoteThere is about 10 pages about don't let your child met her until you two are serious, because if things don't work out, the child will be seriously damaged.
Pfft..Save me that preach...

No I don't think that. I think that as a parent, you don't need to bring everyone that you might sleep with around that child. Notice I said sleep with--big difference. Even for family--if I'm just "friends" with a guy and I know there won't be anything beyond that then he doesn't get a meet the family thing. Not necessary. IF you run into family while you're out? Different story completely.

My friends, male or female, especially male, that I am not sleeping with, meet friends, family, whatever. But that's my use of friends--the general use of it. The use that most people use it for--not friend with benefit. They're friends that I hang out with and yes, they meet other friends, etc. But someone that I'm sleeping with is a friend but they're more than just a friend.


I agree with Browneyesboo..How can you be with someone that you not look at as a friend??


LOL...you're kidding right? LOTS of people are "with someone they don't look at as a friend". It's called f**k buddy or casual sex and it's a vastly different category than what you're talking about and what Browneyesboo is more than likely talking about.


To me if she start talking about getting serious in a short time, giving me a time table about us, start asking questions, like where do you see us in five months, or something similar, it's a turn off..


Believe it or not I don't disagree. If a person is on a completely different page than what you're on and it's obvious, then yes it's a turn off. But that's where that talking comes into play. If you're just hanging out--seeing someone casually with sex tossed in, then there shouldn't be ANY talk of where is this going because she too, is just hanging out. Which is why the "dating" choice, for you, is wrong.


I can hear you saying, I am a commitment phobia, afraid, etc.


Actually I'd only say that if a guy decided that he was going to be "friends" with a woman forever, then one day she decided she didn't want to play friends any longer. She doesn't go to him and demand a commitment--on the contrary, since she KNOWS he's not going to want that, she takes her goodies and goes to find a guy who wants what she does. Then the friend guy gets his feelings hurt because he thought they had a good thing going--but he still won't commit to anything more serious. So he loses out. THAT guy might be afraid of commitment to the point that he's willing to let someone he's truly interested in go.

You...nah. From what you're writing, you may be afraid of commitment for some other reason but in the example you gave, that's not it.


Oh and robertkoi:


Please, please, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease let me insert my tiny wiener inside your vagina? *smile*


It's a damn good thing I wasn't drinking coffee...now THAT'S funny as hell (I'm sure Zuglo won't find it funny though!!!!)
 sosdd
Joined: 12/14/2009
Msg: 171
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/10/2010 8:15:08 AM
It means friends. If anything happens beyond that wonderful, but friends are great to have.
 afashionlady
Joined: 4/19/2008
Msg: 174
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/11/2010 6:42:01 AM

Hm...So, you telling me that your fvckbuddy is not someone you see your self be friend with??? That you would have sex with someone don't see yourself being friends with?? Prostitutes think pretty much like that..It's all about the money..


Don't be crass. A FB isn't the same as a "friend" in your definition of the word. And yes people have sex that they don't see themselves as being friends with--I didn't say *I* did, I said that people have casual encounters all the time. If you have sex with a woman (or a man, for the ladies) on a first date and never deal with them again...is that a friend? That's not prostitution...people have sex with no friendship ALL OF THE TIME. Your judgment is showing...

Now I say...

My friends, male or female, especially male, that I am not sleeping with, meet friends, family, whatever.


And you read...

Well, you pretty easy to figure out than..You bring a guy to meet the family means you sleeping with him, right?


Reread what I wrote. I said that male friends that I don't sleep with meet friends and family. I should have expanded that to say that platonic friends in my world hang out with friends and family all the time. And yes, if I do bring someone to meet my family who isn't a platonic friend, we're beyond your "friend" stage.


Interesting.. As I said earlier, who is my platonic friend, and who isn't, is between me and her.


Fair enough...but you've never had family ask you about someone who's around? Or do they all assume that it's "just a friend of Zuglo's"?
 RobertKoi
Joined: 11/9/2008
Msg: 176
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/11/2010 7:16:12 AM
Zuglo's approach to women seems terrible to me. Instead of that "please, please, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease let me insert my tiny wiener inside your vagina" attitude, maybe you should stop pleading and say what you want instead. Friendship first is probably the most stupid "technique" that one can possibly use. You're putting yourself in the dreaded friend zone from the very beginning. Maybe you should let her categorize you before you put that "low" label on yourself. In any case, if A wants more than just a boring friendship with B, A should walk away with his/her pride intact. I think that a lot of men, AND women, know exactly what it's like to be in that situation. It stinks, it really does.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 177
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/11/2010 8:44:59 AM

You're putting yourself in the dreaded friend zone from the very beginning.

I was of the impression that Zuglo actually wants to AVOID the relationship zone. Where are you getting the impression he wants more with the lady in question and she doesn't? What pride is he salvaging here? Did I miss something?
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 178
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/11/2010 11:02:50 AM

Disagree with many thing you said..If she want to meet my family, why not?

Because unless it's made loud and clear that you two are platonic friends only -- it amps up the 'serious' factor, whether you like it or not. Not the same 'serious' factor for everyone, but relatively speaking it does. That's why not, if you're looking to just be casually dating. Even you not liking to call it casually dating, even two people casually dating shouldn't "meet the parents" or go to Cedar Point with the kids together -- because that moves it in a NON casual direction. Now, if you do want to move into a more non-casual direction, yeah, it's a great move!

I am a firm believer to introduce a child, so you see how the two interact.

I see what you mean, and there is that benefit to it. And depends on the kids' age. Younger kids can grow attachment and isn't the best thing... even though a benefit can be seen how well they get along with each other. Point being, if you're seeing someone THEN get introduced to the family, you're amping things up between you two to some degree. If you're not in position to be a couple, don't do it.

So, none of your friend meet your Mom, until he is important in your life??? You kidding me??

A FRIEND, that's fine. Someone you're seeing and introducing a gal to your mom? You can do that, but that's amping things up. That says "I just dont want to hang out with you -- I want you to meet the family; I'm bringing us into couple-mode." What are you going to say to your mom? "Oh, no mom -- I'm not dating her. She's a friend I hang out with and pork." If that's the case, and you're JUST hanging-out as far as any 'relationship' would be concerned, why introduce them to family?

How can you be with someone that you not look at as a friend?

Exactly. They're going to be a friend to you, platonic, non-platonic, serious-intentions, non-serious-intentions. They'll be a confidant. Should I say, "Oh Sally? Yeah, she's a confidant," just because a wife, girlfriend, FWB or platonic friend all are a confidant? I'm misdirecting people if I were to say that and Sally was a gal I was seeing.

To me if she start talking about getting serious in a short time, giving me a time table about us, start asking questions, like where do you see us in five months, or something similar, it's a turn off.. I can hear you saying, I am a commitment phobia, afraid, etc.

I personally wouldn't see you as a commitment phobe if a gal brought that up on a 3rd date or something. But what makes me scratch my head is that you're open to introducing a gal to your family or kids, at least partially to see how they get long and all that (visions of future), but not about where you see each other in 5 months? I would hope that wouldn't be within the same time-frame. That question "where do you see us in 5 months" means serious-thoughts-of-future, as does "meet the parents".

I bring someone, and maybe I should have those sticky name tag saying if I do sleep with her or not?

I would say whether she's JUST a friend or not, yes. How serious your relationship is and its expectations aren't anyone's business (even though parents will many times want to know)... but whether you and she are together in some way or just friends is basic basic stuff, man!

You not wanting that is what makes you a commitment phobe. What you're missing is this: If you don't want labels, why are you labeling them as a Friend and leaving it at that? Why not say Confidant? You're giving it a label -- not a vague one per se, but one that points to the direction of (Just) Friend Zone, which is not the case in circumstances where you don't want to settle down. If you don't want to settle down with a gal, don't do family intros! Don't live the life of a couple by actions and reap the benefits of that by its attention & closeness, but say "Oh no, we're just friends" to avoid obligations and balls & chains. :)
 RobertKoi
Joined: 11/9/2008
Msg: 179
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/11/2010 1:46:36 PM
Womaninprogress: I know that you're in love with me, but hey, climb off my back, okay? :)
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 180
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/11/2010 8:47:52 PM

Friendship first is probably the most stupid "technique" that one can possibly use

I agree.. even if people don't mean it literally, it still causes confusion.

You're putting yourself in the dreaded friend zone from the very beginning.

I wouldn't necessarily say that, if they followed it up by making it clear that they're not meaning it literally. But many do mean it literally. But if they don't though, it's still conflicting with the label they're going out of their way to give by it, which the other person isn't going to ignore off the bat just because their description differs some. If you know they're not meaning it literally, you won't necessarily be in the friend zone, although after meeting you, they could use that term to twist it back into 'oh I meant just friends' -- I think that's why it gives people a creature comfort of control. If they do mean what it says, then yeah, they want you (or guys in general) to be in the friend zone in the beginning, which is a red flag about them (and means small % of any chance if they still mean it after meeting you).

Maybe you should let her categorize you before you put that "low" label on yourself. In any case, if A wants more than just a boring friendship with B, A should walk away with his/her pride intact.

Actually, in Zuglo's defense, she has more future-feelings about him than he does of her. They are a couple of sorts (non-committed; you can see other people), but he doesn't want to be tied down with her (due to his understandable reasons) and have that label. He's not in any danger of being in the friend zone because they've established themselves as more than that already. He's in the casually-dating arena, outside the friend zone... He is knowingly willing to risk losing what he has with her for the sake of keeping himself in an open casual relationship of sorts and just calling themselves friends, so he's well past worrying being seen on just a platonic-only level.

He's actually in a different spot than you may think. He like many relatively normal guys kicks things off in a casual, no-expectations situation... his problem though is he continues it into casual dating but wanting to just call things friends... and even meet the parents while having something going on with a girl and meshing lives some for a good long while and still not wanting to have any commitment or recognition of any couplehood on any level. He isn't risking the gal thinking of him as a platonic friend.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 182
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/12/2010 9:04:37 AM

have a feeling that you might over thinking this a little..labels, zone..

Actually, I'm trying to just make it pretty basic and simple... sometimes explanations seem more complex than the idea itself, because of how difficult it can be to explain, and I believe this is one of them. Calling someone merely a friend or confidant, when there is "something" going on sends the wrong signal, that's all. Friend Zone = just-friends feelings . Dating Zone = sexual attraction. Pretty simple, right? Of course, I can easily ramble on to explain that the 'Dating' in 'Dating Zone' doesn't necessarily mean you're actually Dating, but that the sexual attraction is enough where you'd at least be date-worthy if they were ready to date. See? Sounds like I made it more complex, but it's not. :)

we are not talking about formal meeting, like when I say to my parents hey there is a girl I want you to meet, let's say this weekend at 5 in this restaurant. That has a serious ring to it. I think at that point Moms get all misty eyed, knowing that her little man all grown up, and have a serious girlfriend.

Yes, okay, we see things eye-to-eye about meeting the parents. However, I will say that if you're hanging with a girl who wants to meet the parents, and you arrange it, it's not going to be too far off from meeting them at a restaurant at 5 on the weekend. It's a planned event. I'm not saying if you happen to be walking in the mall with your girl (but not girlfriend!) you throw a coat over her if you see a parent walking within a 100ft radius. Just something planned to meet. The intentions are there. No candelit dinner or official announcement required that it amps things up.

But, when Mom was alive we were going swimming,in the apartment complex pool, I called my friend Sally..LOL and asked her of she wants to come here, many time with her kid/s.
Now did that mean she is my ___what? Platonic, non platonic, friend, the girl I am seeing, or just a gal who came to spend time with us?

Again, it's pretty simple. If you and Sally were just-friends, there wouldn't be any thoughts about it. Regardless of how "serious" it is, it is what it is, if you're seeing each other on any level. The kids don't know how often you pork their mom, or the expectations you and she have for the future -- and neither did your mom. So as far as they're concerned -- is it a gal you're seeing or a gal who's in the same boat as your buddy's wife, ie platonic? How to introduce her? Personally, I wouldn't bring her home where the parents were, and to bring the kids. It may not have much pre-meditated motive, but regardless, the result would amp things up, even if *I* just wanted to focus on getting a tan. If I were to, I'd tell my mom in that case that there's a gal I've been seeing -- Sally -- and it's not too serious or anything, but I thought she and her kids would like to come over. When she did come over, I'd say "this is Sally". Now, would I do that if I was just casually dating? No. My mom would ask questions about she and I, which WOULD make it weird. I could try and use it as cover and say we're just friends, but that route would be a lie. If I wanted to do more than casually date, I would just say this is Sally, a girl I'm seeing, and bringing her and her kids over to the pool would move things in a more grounded direction, and hopefully Sally would be good with it moving in that direction too.

Just like when we got invited to her barbecue on the weekend, and that time I met her family members..Was I labeled as her ___what?

When you give it no label, and they know you're not just friends, each individual will come up with their own phrase... "that's Sally's man", "her boyfriend", "the guy she's seeing", etc. Giving it no label (solely the word 'friends' is a label) is alright, I think.

Maybe to me it's not a big deal to meet family, kids. Maybe to some it's a big step in their relationship, maybe it means the next step.

It varies on how big of a step it ends up being. It is a "next" step, yes. Stepping more outside mere casual dating. You're meshing lives more. If it is just-a-friend, a friendship gets a little closer. If there's something between you and a gal, it draws things closer too.

What is wrong with being in a (and I like that) casual dating, outside the friend zone? IF both parties are OK with it, because it has been discussed!

Nothing's wrong with casual dating! Confusing someone into thinking you want to just be their friend and come to find out you meant to just casually date was the original issue... and also, when casually dating, you should look out for things that make it more than casual... as what you DO together and the frequency defines how casual it ENDS UP really being over time. If half your clothes are at Sally's place, and you find yourself dropping Sally's kids off at soccer practice, and going over to her parents' periodically -- it's not that casual anymore.

So my ramblings are about not expecting something to be only what you wish to label it, when the actions dictate how things are, as the actions by themselves, if they paint a rather clear picture, give it the actual label... and thus, to take what you and Sally end up doing over time into consideration when thinking about if things are getting too serious for your blood or not, despite how convenient & cozy it may be, if you don't want to be too serious.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 184
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/12/2010 7:08:55 PM

Well, again, I do not see anything wrong with that

And someone else may not see anything wrong with having a discussion about where you two see yourselves in the future together on a 2nd date/meeting. Additionally, you're not the ONLY person on the board there. Sure, you've got family members... their kids... YOU of course... but also her. And like I said before, whether you pay attention to it or not, it DOES amp it up to some degree.

Friendship gets a little closer? I am fine with that, but wouldn't say closer, I would say better. I think that's how the BFF things starts.

Closer, better, route-to-BFF... yeah, exactly. With someone that you're casually dating, it amps that up, too. Imagine you're hanging out with a gal. You never went to her place. Never been in her car. Never met any of her friends. She never has been to your place. Never been in your car. It's LESS. Things get closer when you, even if it's not some big shin-dig, get involved with their personal lives on some level... family, their place, etc. Bringing your kids over to a gal's parents house that you're "being casual with" moves it into a less casual direction, just like having a new friend hanging out at your parents moves it in a closer friendship direction. Common sense. Lots of things do that to some degree, without us thinking about it much if at all.

Knowing that, you can be wise about certain things. Hmmm... Sally really digs me. We've hung out some, but I don't want to get close to her. She wants me to go to her brother's wedding. I'm not going to. Sure, would be convenient to me, but I can look ahead. Even though she presents it as not some huge event, I still don't want to do that despite free booze and possibly a fun time. It will amp things up. Same goes for hanging out at her parents' pool... it's a higher step. Higher compared to what? Compared to never establishing a comfort zone getting to know each others' family.

So, to end this entertaining thread, I think doing things together, and not being in a relationship IS possible, if me and Sally are on the same page. Just can't see why not?

Again, you can. You know I've said that. I think you see things as black n white, like being Friends or In-Relationship-On-Road-to-Marriage. Oh, I'm not in a relationship set for possible future marriage?? Great! I must be Friends then! :)

What you are is based on what you do. Just because you helped a gal out in a bind to pick up her kids once doesn't change the scope of your 'relationship' with her. It's what you do as a routine, as you mesh lives. 90% of the time, many couples aren't kissing or all over each other... going to ball games... hanging out, etc. That doesn't mean they're not exclusive. You find a guy and a gal spending a lot of time together, doing every day things together, meshing lives ... and they're not platonic? Sorry, they're melding into a couple at least to some degree if that becomes established... you are what you do, not what you wish to label it! Your labels can over-ride things and obviously set agreeable boundaries... but you can't pretend nothing's going on and things aren't forming when they are... you have to keep the other person's feelings in mind.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 186
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/13/2010 9:07:10 AM

My friend went to Florida, brought me some shells from the beach. Gave it to me and said -Don't read anything into this..LOL.. She actually gave me something for Valentine's Day once..Caught me off guard because of course I had nothing for her. ... you might say/think she was amping things up ... Or if she was, she was lying when she said she wasn't, and in that case it's her fault.

Yeah, saying 'dont read too much into this' is "hey, I'm not coming on too strong." Her saying that was to make sure it wasn't "too much" and it wasn't out of having a huge crush. But does that mean it means NOTHING if you two are fraternizing? No. Doesn't mean it's necessarily too much, either. My point is, to -whatever- degree. That by itself, with her saying that, yeah, doesn't necessarily mean that much. And again -- this isn't about "responsibility" or one trying to amp things up. It's about things just happening, regardless of that.

I collect hippo figurines..I like hippos..Anyway, I have about three from this women I know for about 2 years. Trust me, she is not trying to amp things up, but when she sees one she gets it for me, becasue we are very good friend. Kids have been met, parents have been met, before she started school we hang out often, we still make time to catch a movie, a dinner, etc. Now, you know, after 2 years she knows very well, thing won't get amp up. Neither of us wants to.

I think the most important "factor" if you will, is how much time you spend together. Bottom line... so I'm not trying to read too much into the little things. If you guys are platonic friends, all the stuff is meaningless (unless you're trying to see if she really 'likes you' underneath, but that's something entirely different). How much time you spend together is the main factor. And I will say this -- spending less time together distances things, just as a quaint valentines day gift or meeting parents on a casual level brings you -it- closer.

So, as you can see you can go to the wedding, barbecue, without amping things up.

To meet family members? No - not the same as a hippo. No, I understand many actions can be put on the DL, sure. My point is, that doesn't mean they mean nothing. It's within the context of things, and how much time you spend with a gal (who's not a platonic friend) determines what's going on. Meshing lives amps it up. Spending less time together de-amplifies it. Spending more day-to-day time amps it. Kinda simple.

What if Sally just don't want to be the only one without partner?

No, I can understand. If you and Sally are kinda-seeing-eachother, and she didn't want to go solo, that's fine, and it doesn't mean she's trying to create some big romantic connection. I think we're talking about two different things:
- A big bold "move" to solidify things between two people (vs)
- Experiencing adventures together that draws people closer in on a subtle level or maybe obvious level

You going to a wedding with a gal you're kinda seeing -- will draw you closer, assuming things go normally there of course and have a great time with her there. It doesn't mean she's TRYING to create a romantic connection at all... that's not the point.

Say Sally has 2 tickets to go to Europe. You and she have been seeing each other some, but neither likes to rush into things. But she doesn't want to go to Europe alone! She tells you this isn't her trying to make some big "move", but hey, she has an extra ticket... and you accept. Guess what? It's going to draw you closer together, for better or worse outcomes, regardless of what any underlying "intent" was or was not.

Ever hear of "let things happen"? The circumstances & environment can sometimes play a significant role in drawing people together or pushing them apart. If you and Sally went to Europe... and what do ya know! Sleep in the same bed after hitting some pubs... dozing off on each others' shoulders on the trains... spending day after day together... it will draw people together. Now, a European Vacation is a heavy situation... because it has time spent together very close and for a good time.

But meshing lives and comfortable with the family and all that does to SOME DEGREE, which varies on the situation, a bit of that. But that can be stepped back by time spent together as not-just-friends, which is the biggest factor.

I think your situations with Sally's parents should be a clue that maybe you're off-the-cuff when it comes to things and just focus on having a good time, without knowing the obvious signals it can send, even if in reality, they're small. You'll get yourself in a lot of drama if you think that taking a girl you're kinda-with to a wedding, meeting your parents, and you meeting her parents means nothing and won't amp things up. It will, whether you like it or not. Want to undo that? Spend less time with her afterwards I guess would be the obvious solution.
 browneyesboo
Joined: 5/19/2005
Msg: 187
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/13/2010 12:38:36 PM
This is all too complicated for me.
I honestly don't hang around with anyone that is
not what I would consider a friend.
I don't consider meeting someone new for coffee
as hanging around with someone. We could say
bye bye and never see each other again. I don't
do that with friends.

I also can't see getting involved with a friends with
benefits thing with someone that I didn't consider a
friend.

I have family, friends and aquaintances. Most people
fit into the aquaintances box. I work with lots of
aquaintances and in a few cases I work with some
friends.

I stand by my earlier post. I don't think you say
"friends first" with someone you clearly see yourself
with. I think you say that to set yourself up for a future
out...as in...I'm sorry...I don't feel any chemistry at all,
but I would love to be friends.

But that of course is just my interpretation of what
"friends" means to me.

I like to keep things simple.

 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 189
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/14/2010 10:23:44 AM

If I receive a gift from someone, and she says don't read nothing into it, I won't analyze it, OK?

If you're seeing her in some way, you don't have to analyze it. You can pay attention to it and not ignore it, though. It's not that hard. It sounds more analytical when breaking it down in text here. :)

And meeting family members, etc. will not amp things up TO ME.

Again, my point was, you're not the only player in the game. But regardless, the situation between you to is drawn closer, if you keep seeing that person frequently. I know you don't agree, but it's the same with a new buddy and you continue to hang out a lot with. I am NOT saying it's necessarily the biggest thing in the world! It's an EXAMPLE in which many things can put writing on the wall.

Sorry, but you maybe the type who gets a kiss, and it means a word to you.

It means a word, but no, it doesn't mean the world! I know it sounds like I'm making every little thing a guy and a gal does the biggest deal on the planet -- but no, that's not it at all. It's the collection of things. Particular things, like going to a gal's family-oriented wedding as a date, can be bigger than others (little mini-gifts). Things can collect over time, but IN THE END -- the main factor is frequency of time spent together anyway. If you lack that, then yes, the collection of particular events end up meaning much less afterward.

So, to her what we did together did amp things up. But not every woman or man a same!

Yes, because of the circumstances. I will grant you, some women will take particular things as bigger "bring us closer" events, and some much smaller. There is an interpretive/gray area, sure, with all other factors considered... but my point has been, it does do SOMETHING.

Someone could say, "Yeah, I've been hanging out with Sally, didn't want to be too serious with her and be a 'couple' because she has a kid and an uptight mom. I'd see her 3 times a week for a few months... met her family... her family knows my family... I moved in with her... what, what? It's all subjective on what has meaning and what doesn't. None of this stuff amped it up to ME..."

Now that's OBVIOUSLY a high-end situation, but my point being, it isn't all just subjective.

And if a gal wants you to meet her parents or she to meet yours, learn to avoid such situations and not think just about yourself but how people generally are emotionally, what things point to, etc.

I refuse to believe you can't have a friend, and you two don't want to amp things up!

You mean a gal you're casually/sorta dating/seeing? Oh absolutely. Main factor: frequency of time spent together. If you ante up on the frequency of time spent together & the more you mesh lives, the less distant it becomes... and after a particular threshold, the less casual it becomes. Interpretive? It can be, sure. Every situations's different. But you just can't say you're far away from couplehood, set boundaries with her in the beginning, then over time actions do the opposite and wonder why Sally is 'wtf', ya know? It's your responsibility not to "be" a couple, just as much as it's her responsibility not to if she doesn't want to either. Over time, feelings change, big or small. You're also responsible for turning down particular adventures or frequency of seeing each other IF you don't want to go toward couple-mode!

My point is that it's not just the words said but the actions you agree to take! Don't want to go into couple-mode? Be more busy... don't see her 3+ times a week. Just like you'll avoid candle-lit dinners and Barry White music playing in the background, not just because it's your "taste", but because of what it employs, avoid other things like big family-gatherings, gifts, weekend trips together, etc... whether it be encouraging them, asking them, or maybe accepting them.

reading to much into if she holds your hand during a movie, or put her head on your shoulder, or when you two at home watching a movie, and she puts her head on your lap. Are those "moves"? Or is she comfortable in your presence?

Could be both. Could be 'moves' she hasn't given any thought about, but wants to... depends on other factors involved. If you guys sat on opposite ends of the couch watching movies every time? More distant than cuddling together. One says a different message than the other. Head on lap or something related, when watching a movie. Don't read too much into it by itself, but include it in the bigger picture, and with a little common sense, you'll see what that coincides with.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 190
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/14/2010 10:51:33 AM
Okay, in my ramblings I've made it sound like some complex world to ya, splitting hairs, etc. etc.

I'll just sum it up here, in reference to Sally, a girl you'd be in "cahoots" with. Not going on a European vacation with, or repeat candle-lit dinners at fancy places are not just your 'tastes' not to do when you don't want to be a "couple" -- but it's your recognition, regardless of what words may be said about boundaries, that it'd clearly mean that you'd be becoming one, so you'd avoid it. We both know particular actions can over-ride what's "said".

What we disagree on is boundaries of actions. I'm not analyzing one little thing by itself when it comes to a low-key V-day gift or a hippo gift... or even meeting parents by itself and only by itself. The main thing is frequency of time spent together when you're in cahoots with someone. Many times things just evolve into something bigger by what you do. Many times the guy & girl's words contradict what they become. Just as what you do can be a notable events (European vacation, weekend trips, candlit dinners you treat her to), co can a collections of things that point in a particular direction.

If you don't want to be a couple, guy or girl, it is your responsibility to factor in what things mean. European vacations they have an extra ticket to can be obvious to you, but so should other things like "Gee, we have been spending a lot of time together recently. We can't pretend things are on the same level as a month ago when what we do is more," or "We are spending more time together. She did give me that small V-day gift... and she told me with a wink that she'll buy me a steak next month and always loves to cook a great steak for a guy (Steak & BJ day is March 14th), and just asked me to go to a wedding, but said she just didn't want to go alone..." It's your responsibility to wind that down and distance yourself by actions you partake in, regardless of the words -- even if Steak & BJ day and free booze at a wedding sounds good to you! :)

I think you're saying "Hey, if it's okay to what I feel is not amping things up to ME, and I've told her before I'm not looking for couple-hood, it's her fault!" That's where I disagree -- things can be amped up without you knowing or wanting to know, and not be so much in that gray area. It's called having your cake (experiencing joys of folks who are a couple) and eating it too (not being a couple), letting things roll in that direction, regardless of your personal feelings about your comfort-zone.
 johninsd
Joined: 3/2/2009
Msg: 191
What does Friends First really mean?
Posted: 4/14/2010 6:26:31 PM

Friends first...it seems rather obvious, and in the real world it is. But when you meet someone online, what does "start with a friendship" mean? Who pays when you go out, what sort of contact (hand holding, hugging, kissing?) does a friendship entail? How long should the party who wants to start a relationship wait...men seem to think they will end up in the "friend zone" if romance doesn't happen right away. Do you agree?


I think this is a very good point!

My last ex was a friend first... not because it was planned, but that's just the way it happened.

I don't think you can force "friends first", though. If one person feels an attraction the other doesn't, the "friendship" is going to be very tenuous. If you meet someone as part of a dating situation, like from here, and both of you choose to "just be friends", I don't think it's particularly likely that you will both "grow to love" each other.

IMO, "friends first" is when you meet someone, you're friends, and then a relationship grows naturally.
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