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 AUTHOR
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 77
Morality and FaithPage 4 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)
Humans didnt come from apes. We are simply a close relative. Since you know nothing about evolution, why do you discredit it instead of actually looking into it? Evolution is NOT a direct latter. It is a tree.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 78
Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/19/2009 10:05:16 PM

I find it odd that Andy Atheist is so insulted by the idea that Cathy Christian believes in a state of Hell if one doesn't believe in God, the Creator of all life. If Andy doesn't believe either in God or in Hell, why does he care what Cathy thinks? Why does he take it so personally?

You know what? You deserve to be tortured, beaten, and burnt alive for what you believe in!!!









...Doesn't feel so good, does it? That is why Atheists care. Even though we know nothing will happen to us. It us the principle of actually telling someone who doesn't believe in the same religion that they deserve to be tortured, beaten, and burnt alive for what they believe in.


find out who started the finest schools

The.. um.. Muslims?


and invented some of our finest inventions.

Most scientists are Atheists. Most cures for diseases come from scientists who are Atheists.


but you tell me what you think the next time you're caught out in the cold with no food or shelter, and some poor unintellectual Christian who has no reason to help you at all other than their love for their fellow man clothes you and feeds you and gives you a warm bed. Then tell me how much Christians are beneath your notice.

Oh, im sorry. I never knew that you HAD to be a Christian in order to help someone. I had always assumed that helping others out had a secular purpose. Are Christians really good people if they are only good because they expect something good is going to happen when they die or they are trying to avoid being tortured? Einstein said it best, "If humans are only good because they fear what would happen to them after they die or they hope for reward when they pass on, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
 WanderingRain
Joined: 3/9/2008
Msg: 79
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History
Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/20/2009 9:34:34 PM
Very fascinating discussion.

My 2 cents and belief:

Athiests won't necessarily go to hell. You will meet God and then while you are gaping speechless, God will say: "Well, you've been a good person all your life, anyway. Care to join me in my ultimate party? There's food, love and dancing... you can even reincarnate back to earth, if you wish it." What are you going to say, "no"?

Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc... all tout a bible largely assembled and chosen for them by the Council of Nicea -- a bunch of Catholic bishops are dictating to you exactly what to read. They removed many books from the Bible that they deem unfit.

To absolutely believe there is no God is like believing there can be no earth-like planet elsewhere in the universe. Or is like believing there can possibly be NO life elsewhere in the universe.

Everyone worships one God under many names.

God is something people have to discover for themselves. The lazy way is just to keep asking people to provide you with proof. This is like expecting a lover to court you without you lifting a finger to help yourself. You have to pursue and discover faith yourself. Nobody can do it for you.

Peace and blessings.
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 80
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History
Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/22/2009 10:21:46 PM

I thought POF removed the religion thread - yah they did but I couldn't help joining in because I'm a weak minded evil lustful easily led astray daughter of Eve the mother of all sin ...the cause of all mankinds woes lol.

They didn't remove it, they just made it harder to find.
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingForum12.aspx


I find it odd that Andy Atheist is so insulted by the idea that Cathy Christian believes in a state of Hell if one doesn't believe in God, the Creator of all life. If Andy doesn't believe either in God or in Hell, why does he care what Cathy thinks? Why does he take it so personally?

Here's a video that Cathy should watch so she might understand Andy better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1ImMtHrrKo&feature=channel_page
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 81
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Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/23/2009 8:08:37 PM
Wow. Shouting. That's why this belongs in the religion forum, IMHO.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 82
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History
Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/24/2009 6:31:18 AM
RE Msg: 222 by desertrhino:
You might ask a similar question: If we're so well-designed, why are some of us so darned ignant?
Free will. We all have the ability and the choice, to be ignorant a**holes or self-educated smarta**es. It's up to us which one we choose to be.

Msg: 226 by Verzen:
...Doesn't feel so good, does it? That is why Atheists care. Even though we know nothing will happen to us. It us the principle of actually telling someone who doesn't believe in the same religion that they deserve to be tortured, beaten, and burnt alive for what they believe in.
Many people said that communism was evil, and must be suppressed at all costs. Some people, like****Cheney, say that torture works, and is acceptable to perform on people in order to gain information from some people who have certain beliefs. The simple fact is that there are always people who say that some group or other deserve to be tortured, beaten, and even killed for what they believe in. If you are going to live your life believing that you can demand that everyone is going to be nice to you, you're just not dealing with reality. Blaming religion is just not going to make your attitude to life any more realistic. If anything, it is just denying reality.

Most scientists are Atheists. Most cures for diseases come from scientists who are Atheists.
Most people who are called scientists by the Modern Western Secular Scientific Establishment are Atheists. Most cures for diseases come from people who are called scientists by the Modern Western Secular Scientific Establishment who are Atheists. The reason for this, is that the Modern Western Secular Scientific Establishment seems to be founded and built exclusively by people who call anyone who isn't an atheist as delusuional, and incapable of thinking correctly.

It's not that science, and cures, cannot come from theists. Newton was a scientist and a theist. Pasteur found cure for disease, via pasteurisation, and was a scientist and a theist. But the Modern Western Secular Scientific Establishment deliberately tries to ignore theists who are scientists, because that would show that atheism is just not any indication of greater intelligence or any greater science. Science can only suffer when it chooses to ignore scientists who can think outside the box.

Oh, im sorry. I never knew that you HAD to be a Christian in order to help someone. I had always assumed that helping others out had a secular purpose.
That is true from an atheistic perspective, because an atheistic perspective assumes that G-d doesn't exist, and so everything is secular from such a perspective. But, if you include theistic perspectives, that assumption isn't always valid.

Einstein said it best, "If humans are only good because they fear what would happen to them after they die or they hope for reward when they pass on, then we are a sorry lot indeed."
Judaism teaches, in Pirkey Avos, Chapter 1, Mishnah 3, that "Antignos the leader of Socho said Don't be like workers who are serving their master on condition of getting a reward, but be like workers who are serving their master NOT on condition of getting a reward." Considering that Einstein was a Jew, you'd think he'd have known that, wouldn't you? You'd think that therefore, such a statement as this, would not be applicable to the religion of his forefathers at all, wouldn't you? So why did he say this? Could it have been that Albert's family weren't religious, and he got a good-quality education in Judaism, so he didn't know that much about religion, and made his statements out of lack of knowledge?
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 83
Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/24/2009 11:55:05 PM
Peter, would you be for allowing Westboro to picket marine funerals than? Would you defend them? When freedom of speech gets so out of hand that others freedoms are removed, that is when freedom of speech fails and should be taken away by the offending individual.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 84
Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/25/2009 7:04:56 AM
Westboro as an example..

Your son died in Iraq and you are at his funeral grieving. All of a sudden a group of people show up with signs that say, "God Hates Fags!' And they picket the funeral. They are saying that your son is going to hell because he defended a country which allows homosexuality to happen. Westboro is an actual church who actually does this. Look it up on Youtube.
Should this be allowed to happen simply because we have freedom of speech?
Should herrassment be legal?
When do your freedoms begin if it ends another persons freedom?
The point is, is that simply because people have freedom of speech, doens't mean they have to abuse the system and herrass a grieving father and mother at their SON'S funeral who died in Iraq.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 85
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Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/25/2009 7:40:24 AM
RE Msg: 251 by Verzen:
Westboro as an example..

Your son died in Iraq and you are at his funeral grieving. All of a sudden a group of people show up with signs that say, "God Hates Fags!' And they picket the funeral. They are saying that your son is going to hell because he defended a country which allows homosexuality to happen. Westboro is an actual church who actually does this. Look it up on Youtube.
Should this be allowed to happen simply because we have freedom of speech?
Should herrassment be legal?
When do your freedoms begin if it ends another persons freedom?
The point is, is that simply because people have freedom of speech, doens't mean they have to abuse the system and herrass a grieving father and mother at their SON'S funeral who died in Iraq.
I would argue that Freedom of Speech, only ever was meant to protect the will of the people to protest at unfair government laws. But then, I also argue that atheists should NOT have the right to shout their messages at people, just like Westboro don't have the right to shout their messages at people.

However, many American groups, in particular the ACLU, defend the right of Free Speech, and actively defend the right of people like Westboro to say what they want, the same as they defend the right of atheists to say what they want.

It's a double-edged sword. You can only voice your opinion in the same ways as Westboro can, because from their POV, your opinions are just as offensive as Westboro's opinions are to you. Either you can say what you want, and they can too, or they have to shut up, and so do you.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 86
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Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/26/2009 10:49:14 AM
most of us cant think outside of the box. a very small box at that.

but isnt it obvious ,that the world, as it is run today, is not working? just a thought.

I am not being positive or negative, just stating the obvious, am I not?
so, for those that agree, would we not investigate other forms of world rule? or keep on flogging the dead horse. or horses.

keep doing the same things [more or less] and expecting different results, isnt that what we all seem to be suggesting?
even if I had no direction, or answers, or was dead, would the above still not be true?

are we ready to humbly go back to the drawing board? not yet? I realize it is much more acceptable to stay in our comfort zone, even if we know it is not working very well. us humans seem to be able to rationalize anything.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 87
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Posted: 4/26/2009 9:58:00 PM
in this society freedoms are a funny one.
the lunatics seem to come out to push the issues.
but you would need a perfect, unbiased person to judge what should be allowed or not.
there arent one alive right now.
we killed the last one, apparently, and we would again.
why? because they can be very annoying for one.
our improperly chanelled human nature [pride] doesnt take well to lessons from perfect people.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 88
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Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/27/2009 5:33:49 PM

Would you, if you have or might have children, prefer that they grow through their youngest years with a functional reality that tells them that they have 'nothing to look forward to but that which THEY INDIVIDUALLY CAN PROVIDE for themselves?"

Would you, as they become self-thinkers, prefer that they recognize their existence as being MERELY coincidental and effectively valueless in the truth of time?

Would you find comfort if they, as Charles Manson's mother was forced to say, find comfort in realizing that, as a result of having no Moral Center, you did what you could but, "how, just how can a mother not love her son?"


I like how you imply that without Judeo/Islamo/Christian faith, you get Charles Manson.

I would rather instill a sense of goodness and ethics not based in false promises or fake threats of torment. I'd also rather not have to answer, "Daddy, why did you, knowing it was a lie in your heart, LIE to me all those years about this imaginary Heaven? Something so basic seems like something you'd want to tell the TRUTH about."

Just saying, is all.
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 89
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Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/28/2009 8:38:24 AM

^^ desertrhino :^("Daddy, why did you, knowing it was a lie in your heart, LIE to me all those years about this imaginary Heaven?^)

The fact is that the above comment is not proven either way!A father who truly loves his child would in good faith advise the child of his own beliefs.

If you can prove diffinitively that a creator does not exist then the matter is
factual else questionable and thus by definition the above statement is by logical construct fallacious.The father is not a pseudologist but acting in good faith towards the child whom he truly loves.


peter4444: My comments were in direct response to the comments I quoted. Please [B]go back and read them[/B]. You're taking this in a direction unrelated to its context.

Of course, the ironic part of your response is that you state my core concept in the middle: "A father who truly loves his child would in good faith advise the child of his own beliefs." and then go on to attack my beliefs because I can't *prove* there is no god, no heaven... If advising a child of one's own beliefs is good, then why is advising my child based on my beliefs bad, suddenly? For me to teach them YOUR faith would be, at its core, lying to them. Just saying, is all.

I cannot *prove* your god does not exist any more than you can *prove* it does. But using "Heaven" as a way to provide hope and comfort to my children, knowing in my heart it is a falsehood (or at least a complete misapplication of a spiritual truth), is a lie. And a lie made for foolish, lazy purposes, since there are other ways to give your children hope for the future and a "moral center." One of the most important of those ways is, of course, teaching them to be truthful and honest to the best of their ability... why would I violate their trust from day one by teaching them something I believe to be a lie?

As for the whole "proving god" one way or the other, the person proposing a magical sky fairy to explain the Universe and all in it is going to be the one having to provide proof. I? can understand why the sun comes up each day without tacking a "because goddidit" on the end of the explanation.

I'm not asking you to believe anything for which I cannot provide either strong evidence, proof, or a very convincing logical explanation, or for which I'm willing to wait on a more thorough explanation. You're the one asking me to believe (or at least teach my children about) a magical sky fairy who turned himself into a Jewish zombie to forgive me for the "sins" I would commit 2,000 years later. Oh yeah, and he did everything else that ever happened, too.

Now, in all fairness, if I die and there's some mystical fairyland from which I find myself excluded because I followed my conscience, then I'm a big enough man to accept that. I'll even be happy for you believers. And on the plus side, when YOU are wrong, all you'll have to worry about is... nothing. You'll just be gone. Pascal's Wager at its finest.

**************************

A quick side-bar on Charles Manson: He didn't grow up to be the psycho killer he was because he was an atheist, or because of some weakness of a non-religious ethical framework that inevitably leads to evil... He grew up to be that psycho killer because his mother had a child at 16, was a drunk and a transient tramp who was never present in his life, and he was passed between abusive, uninterested relatives his whole childhood. Then he discovered how easy it was to manipulate people, especially if you played on their desire for a "religious experience." The rest is history.
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 90
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Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/29/2009 3:53:19 PM

Those who choose to advise their children about heaven are not LYING.

It depends on how they present it. Stating "heaven exists" is a lie because nobody knows whether it does or not, but stating "I believe that heaven exists" is honest (assuming you believe it).

“If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.” ... Mark Twain
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 91
Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/29/2009 4:00:12 PM
Um.. Einstein said that.. Not Mark Twain.
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 92
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Posted: 4/29/2009 5:36:04 PM
^agreed, thx. The link I found wih that quote said that Twain said it, but after searching for it again it definately looks like Einstein said it. Thx for the correction.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 93
Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/29/2009 7:31:37 PM
Numbers 31:18
Tell her it is OK to slaughter families and it is ok to rape all of the virgins... Otherwise you will be picking and choosing..
 desertrhino
Joined: 11/30/2007
Msg: 94
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Posted: 4/29/2009 9:27:06 PM
Peter, please read what I wrote in context. I'm not calling you out for telling your kids about heaven, I'm explaining why atheists and agnostics don't lie to their children just to give them hope and comfort.

Context is important, and it's annoying you keep trying to turn this into me saying, "I think you're lying when you tell your children heaven exists."

I could be more clear, if that would help, but I think that really ought to be good enough.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 95
Morality and Faith
Posted: 4/30/2009 7:49:04 PM
You just rationalised the rape of 10,000 virgin girls who are around 12-16 years of age.....

Is anyone else disgusted by this?
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 96
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Morality and Faith
Posted: 5/1/2009 4:43:12 AM

You just rationalised the rape of 10,000 virgin girls who are around 12-16 years of age.....

Is anyone else disgusted by this?
I am. Where did she talk about rape at all?

Where do you get off making basless accusations?
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 97
Morality and Faith
Posted: 5/1/2009 7:38:31 AM
Scorp - "I have set out a piece for you to read if you are interested, this piece answers your question about numbers 31.. I completely Trust Gods Decisions on everything, "
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 98
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Morality and Faith
Posted: 5/1/2009 4:35:48 PM
RE Msg: 284 by Verzen:
Scorp - "I have set out a piece for you to read if you are interested, this piece answers your question about numbers 31.. I completely Trust Gods Decisions on everything, "
What has that got to do with anything under discussion? Do you just state things that only exist in your own mind?
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 99
Morality and Faith
Posted: 5/1/2009 7:32:13 PM
Are you daft? Thats a serious question. I don't like spelling it out for people.
If she says that this answers your question about numbers 31 and she completely trusts Gods decision on 'everything' then she trusts his decision to allow those girls to be raped. Does this make sense to you?
Reading comprehension dude...
Have you even READ numbers 31:18?
Here, let me give it to you.


31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


Wow! So she trusts Gods decision to keep all the female CHILDREN alive to themselves! They became SEX slaves. If you want to know whats wrong with the world it is THIS bullshit that you and mona are spouting. Trusting everything some vicious psychopath says is lunacy! It's pure insanity! You are saying that Pandemonium is acceptable as long as your God commands it! You people are insane!
This is why all religions are filled with brainwashed cultists... And yes, your religion is a cult that demands that you cannot think for yourself.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 100
Morality and Faith
Posted: 5/1/2009 8:40:33 PM
The link? It's in your bible!
Look it up!
Numbers 31:18

>


New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.

King James Bible
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

American King James Version
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

American Standard Version
But all the women-children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But the girls, and all the women that are virgins save for yourselves:

Darby Bible Translation
but all the children among the women that have not known lying with a man, keep alive for yourselves.

English Revised Version
But all the women children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Webster's Bible Translation
But all the female children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

World English Bible
But all the girls, who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Young's Literal Translation
and all the infants among the women, who have not known the lying of a male, ye have kept alive for yourselves.

Any more proof? I do not need to provide a link. Simply look in your bible.
 Verzen
Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 101
Morality and Faith
Posted: 5/1/2009 9:48:23 PM
If you don't believe in certain verses of the bible than you are picking and choosing which to believe in. If that is the case, why believe in any of it? You are simply creating a pocket God where you have say over what to believe in or what he does or does not command. This is your own version of a God. Why believe in a God of which you designed it's aspects? You either have to believe in the entire bible or none of it.
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