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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > What is "Owed"?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 26
What is Owed?Page 2 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

I imagine you were an undergraduate in the early 70's? So, it is not unimaginable that a prof might say something like that in those days....not unimaginable at all....oh the good old days!!


Yup! circa 1971-73.


Actually, in an ideal world, I would say that children, perhaps up to age 16 or 18, should all have access the same standard of living and opportunites


Agreed, but to attain this standard, do "we" remove them from irresponsible parents?
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 27
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/12/2009 3:46:26 PM

You can doubt all you want and you can suspect that I failed to understand or am misquoting

That is very possible that you mistook what he was saying exactly... so yes, I will doubt.

He even spoke of how non/unproductive people are spoken of as being lazy, but the rest of us have no right to judge them.

Sure he wasn't playing devils advocate? Or quoting a wacko political theorist?

Standard of living in terms of healthcare, education, and BASIC needs like a place where one can stay and not be homeless, regardless of how "lazy" one is, yes -- I agree on that. But standard of living goes beyond that tho -- so to say everyone's standard of living to be the same no matter what is ludicrous.

No right to judge people being lazy? Why not? Calling someone lazy is judging. Calling someone working many hours is judging in the sense of deciding whether they work a lot. Sure, there's areas where judging can go too far, but we're talking extremes here...

If someone says "I don't want to mow your lawn, I'm lazy", and they getting money, despite the kid mowing your lawn getting the same money? Huh?
 A szibinyani Jank
Joined: 4/7/2009
Msg: 28
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/12/2009 6:05:14 PM
"That is very possible that you mistook what he was saying exactly... so yes, I will doubt."

That is a solid statement, but it gives the original speaker a very poor report card. Sometimes you have to trust others to be able to recount events even if the facts and opinions that are cited go totally against your value- and belief systems.

No, the OP very highly unlikely did not quote her prof exactly; but also very likely she did not mistake him for what he was saying. I was there, so to speak, and that was the world now. To say we are all lying because what we say does not comform to values of the late 2000s is denying history. History is not simply one thing happening after another; history involves changes in values of masses of people. You need to learn how to accept that.


"He even spoke of how non/unproductive people are spoken of as being lazy, but the rest of us have no right to judge them.

Sure he wasn't playing devils advocate? "

It's hard to be the devil's advocate when one states something that has a direct correspondence to a quote in the New Testament uttered originally by Jesus. "Those should throw the first stone who have not committed the same sin themselves." Or something similar.

It is not very devil-like to be non-judgmental. I venture to say that it's the opposite that's true.

Do you ever wonder if Jesus (Jesus as god, legend, or metaphor, -- in any of these roles) actually played the devil's advocate? Now, to say that would be really funny. A statement that is truly worthy of doubt.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 29
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/12/2009 9:15:50 PM

No, the OP very highly unlikely did not quote her prof exactly; but also very likely she did not mistake him for what he was saying.


Thank you! And you are exactly right--while I might not be using the exact words he used, the intent is the same. He talked about it for an entire class period. I remember it, in part, because it was a concept that was new to me and though I disagreed with him, I didn't say anything because I was exceedingly shy in those days.


Sure he wasn't playing devils advocate?


Yes, I am sure. Perhaps one has to understand the historical context: early '70s, the hippie wave was still going strong on the coast of northern California, and the counterculture was at odds with the establishment.

Interestingly enough, the county where this took place was well known as a "welfare" county where benefits were easy to get.
 Beefcakedaddio
Joined: 6/6/2007
Msg: 30
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/12/2009 10:07:24 PM
This is a very interesting thread , with some interesting viewpoints that definately draw from differing ideological perspectives.

Someone who is from a conservative background will argue that welfare is a burden on the taxpayer and society. They often rail aginst "social" spending as an evil.

However when their house burns or they need police assistance ,they will rely on government spending into our police and fire departments,and send their children to publicly funded schools.

Some conservatives will decry the use of their tax paying dollars on social programs that in total may use upwards of 10-15% worth of the total economy(GDP),but some how it is ok to spend into a deficit position on a war halfway across the world destroying and ending many innocent lives , and spend our grandchildren(future generations) into debt at a rate of 200% of GDP.Somehow it is "not" social spending when money is taken from taxpayers ,to prop up corporations with bailouts so huge that dwarf spending on social programs-this type of action is by defitnition socialist intervention and not a free market activity.People are fooled by the bailouts and the fear generated and become blinded by the true nature of what it is-Stealing from taxpayers to prop up failing companies.Somehow conservatives are on this band wagon becuase the recipiants of tax dollars are wealthy shareholders and unscrupulous CEO's who continue to receive outrageous bonuses.

I just wanted to add some perspective to the argument , and ask a side question , where do you want your tax paying dollars to go?

The CEO of AIG insurance,shareholders of Exxon,or a "welfare" mom
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 31
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/13/2009 6:29:20 AM

I just wanted to add some perspective to the argument , and ask a side question , where do you want your tax paying dollars to go?


This is a great question--what if we could allocate our tax dollars, choosing who gets how much and who gets none? How would the military fare? How would welfare fare? Would people support education?

As far as services such as for fires, some places don't have service. I remember a few years ago reading an article about a house that burned to the ground while a local fire department watched it go. The fire department was in an unincorporated area and not supported by either city or county taxes but was a collective; members paid a yearly fee, and if you didn't belong, they wouldn't put out your fire.

The people who owned the house had opted not to join, so when their house caught fire, they were out of luck. They railed about it bitterly, saying the firepeople should have done SOMETHING, but the department's response included their liability, contracts, etc.

Did the firefighters OWE this family services?
 asheel_heel
Joined: 4/7/2006
Msg: 32
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/14/2009 7:10:12 AM
I attended a public, progressive university located in a small, conservative city. One professor would often state outrageous theses not because he held that position but as a means of forcing the students to marshall their own critical faculties in opposition. It's just a technique for teaching.

Regarding the original concept: Its fundamental precept is personal freedom-one should not be compelled to do what one doesn't want to do. It presumes the existence of a large class of people that work only for the sake of working. And that the members of this class work in ways that supply the society's need.
But it doesn't address the idea that a compulsive gardener may choose to cultivate only 1 acre of potatos perfectly when society needs 10,000 acres cultivated adequately. Or when he decides to hoe a field of dandelions, since it's the work that satisfies him, not the produce.

So I guess I agree with your professor-All humans ARE deserving of the same standard of living.
The one that's nasty, brutish and short.
 A szibinyani Jank
Joined: 4/7/2009
Msg: 33
What is Owed? more like what is Awned
Posted: 4/15/2009 8:24:52 PM
My windows are awned
My tribe is owned
My yellow cat yawned
My life has drowned.

My Windows opened
My fingers downed
My thoughts I penned
My feelings droned.

My night is lent
To searching, bent,
To find a cent
To pay the rent.

My fingers are bent
With which I close the heat-vent
To inhale the scent
You left before you went.
 moonshines
Joined: 3/24/2009
Msg: 34
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/16/2009 1:11:34 AM
I'd say we owe nothing except to ourselves.
 A szibinyani Jank
Joined: 4/7/2009
Msg: 35
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/16/2009 7:32:46 PM
"If you don't work you don't eat."

I never read the Bible. Where in it says that?

I know that John Smith during the establishing of Jonestown said, "those who don't work will not eat."

Interestingly, this slogan was also used by the state in communist countries.

Interestingly, you don't have to work if you don't owe. You take others'. You don't owe them, so what do you think should stop you from taking from others?

Welfare people understand this well. They take, they don't owe. Nobody owes, like you very aptly and wisely said, wmpbodysp. That is actually the very basis for the welfare system.
 WanderingRain
Joined: 3/9/2008
Msg: 36
view profile
History
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/16/2009 10:22:28 PM
Some people just make their own beds so they must lie in them.
There comes a point where social charity can only go so far. The Octo mom just broke my personal threshold.
Sometimes, we just can't "save" everyone.
 A szibinyani Jank
Joined: 4/7/2009
Msg: 37
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/17/2009 3:17:51 PM
C'mon, everyone, we are not giving enough credit to the Octomom.

In her deed at least she proved that science can make it possible to have humans give birth to 8 surviving children in one fell swoop, in one motion, in one birth, in one fluid push, in one grunt.

Put this against the fact, for instance, that Arnold Schwartzenegger proved that someone can become a screen legend with a thick Austrian/German accent, put this together with the fact that Bush proved that an evil idiot can become president with the proper application of marketing devices, put this together to having Obama proved it to the world that there could be a Black president of the United States.

These people's roles are not centered on their usefulness to society or on their great abilities. They are more the products of an ever-changing society, and as such, they measure milestones in man's quest for... whatever. Even 10 years ago people would say "yeah, there will be Black president, eventually, but I don't think my grandchildren will have seen that, yet." People would never have believed that Iraq was begging the US to send UN observers to scour their land for weapons of mass destructions. People would never have believed even 10 years ago that a human can give birth to 8 babies and they'd all survive.

Well, these three examples may have involved people that will amount to much more than being milestones of the changing of times. But as such, Octomum is a vital part of humanity, she's a pioneer, she's creating a new paradigm. Maybe in 20 years the world will be engulfed in a calamity and 200 people will only survive, with all the material and knowledge wealth already extant. Would they not be just too happy to know that birthing 8 kids is possible for a human? Huh? Eh?

Some of us are boitching at her for being a leach on society. But she is that while she has broken some new scientific and experiential grounds. Let's put aside our pretenses, let's put aside our natural aversion to the smell of diapers, and let's, instead, rejoice in the fact that there is a woman who walks in our midst that has established some biological paradigm.

Lay off her, please. Or else. You know, those Octokids will grow up one day... and they may become financially or politically influential. You can't think that those kids will take revenge on people who ridicule their mother, who want the kids to be lain to waste, who cried blue murder and called Octomother a science-hore and who are saying we owe her and the kids nothing.

There is strength in numbers.

E pluribus unum. Vivato Vivace. Scherzo. Molto cappriccio volte andante pianino. Umgebung. Grog √úrgebor.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 38
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/17/2009 4:44:03 PM

The bible says it best. If you don't work you don't eat.


In the Christian Scriptures, it is written that those who take care of widows and children will be blessed.

I can't think of ANY verse in either the Hebrew or Christian Scriptures that say if you don't work, you don't eat.


But she is that while she has broken some new scientific and experiential grounds.


In the Nazi concentration camps, experiments were performed to test the limits of human endurance; they broke new scientific and experimental grounds, but I certainly would not champion those who performed them.

Experimenting on humans is a dangerous game. If she is to be congratulated for this, why not push the envelope further? Can we get to nine babies? Ten?

And did we REALLY need to know that a woman can bear eight children in such a manner? If we have a population decline, maybe, but that isn't going to happen any time soon.


You know, those Octokids will grow up one day... and they may become financially or politically influential.


Ever heard of the Dionne quints? They were raised by the government in a circus atmosphere. They never had private lives as children, became reclusive as adults, and at least one of them committed suicide. These octokids might not be raised by the state, though that bears to be seen, but they will constantly experience a circus atmosphere. We will see it for years to come: octos start Kindergarten; octos graduate from high school; first octokid gets married.

Ironically, the Canadian government did seem to think that the quints were owed something, but their parents weren't. Of course, there was a fee for observing the girls in their "natural" state, so I guess that they did earn their keep.

Sad.
 VVendy
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 39
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/17/2009 6:27:03 PM
miss quote!
The Bible does not say if you do not work you don't eat it says if a man will not work he should not eat. What a big difference that is. one is a blanket statement the other is a conditional statement. The only time it is OK for "God's people" to allow a person to go hungry is if that person is able to work and refuses to.

For example fields were turned over for gleaning so poor people can pick the food from the corners and left behind by the harvesters who were ordered to leave a certain amount unpicked.

14 kids and a home of her own is what she wanted and received because she wanted to be like Jolie and could not get the kids imported. The doctor that implanted her should be forced to pay all medical needs for the children he should have never did that. The state needs to do the same thing for the kids that it does for any other. Educate and protect anything less would be neglectful.

 A szibinyani Jank
Joined: 4/7/2009
Msg: 40
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/17/2009 7:20:45 PM
Dear Gwendolyn; the Nazi example was uncalled for. The Octomum was not forced into an experiment unwillingly. The first person to be crucified on the cross proved nothing more than that humans can die just one more way. Octomum proved a whole lot more with her voluntary contribution. Indeed, we don't know the future, but if there IS going to be a dearth of women, a dire dearth of women, Octomum's example may come in very welcomed and handy.

I don't see the relevance of bringing the Dionne quints into a reply to my post, but as a stand-alone point it's valid. People should not be subjected to public scrutiny to a point where it hurts them. Please consider Diana, the princess of Wales. The only reason I see to hurt people, within limits, is to punish them for wrongdoing and for showing them as negative examples. The prisons sytem is built for just that.

Children especially should not be forced into living in an environment that is proven to be harmful to their mental health. I agree. I was one of those unfortunate ones who were. It reflects on my posts, don't it? Some of my critics pointed that out to me in private email, site unseen, without their knowing anything factual about my background.

If the Dionne question was a reply to my doomsday preaching about the Octokids gaining power later on and retaliating -- sorry, that part of my post was a joke, a dry one indeed. How could 8 people be a mob powerful enough through their sheer "numbers" to alter the course of mankind, or at least take revenge on those who made fun of their mum? The joke was the "strength in numbers", as 8 is a staggering number of people to come out into the world together, but it's not a staggering number as a voting block. Some joke. The juxtaposition of a staggering number in one respect against the same number being insignificant in another aspect, and carrying the value of "large number" from a valid conceptual environment to another one where it is not valid, but pretending that it is, was the strength of my joke.

I am explaining this in detail because I am sick and tired of being called a fool who says incongruent things. I say everything because I believe they are apropos to the topic, and because they are relevant. And I say of course jokes, but they are not at all totally removed in relevance from the topic at hand.

I have suffered a lifetime due to this misunderstanding, by being shunned and treated as an outsider. Because of my mental-medical background, I did not see what made people disrespect me and eventually learn to completely ignore everything I said. I am older now, have a bit more insight, and though by now I got resigned to being ignored, not understood or misunderstood, I think I can change the usual course of business i.e. how the world regards me. The best I can do is explain my jokes, even if it means to kill them. Killing the jokes. Not the other people. Gesus. One can never be careful enough.

Repundare quod nostrilarum -- ergo credo millicent.
 johnzzz
Joined: 4/1/2007
Msg: 41
view profile
History
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/17/2009 8:17:18 PM
i think that in a society the the lowest standered of living is how we should be judged. i do not have a problem with community shelters, community soup kitchens were people are able to obtain the fundamental and basic needs to life. i understand that every one can make an error a bad judgment or just run into misfortune i have no problems giving these people they help that is needed to their specific situation after all i can find myself in need of help one day.i feel that ultimatly along with the help it is up to the helped to put forth the effort to use the help and make the extra effort to become self supportive. i do not support enabling negitive cycles of social degradation nor do i support those who do not want to put forth at least the minnimum amount of effort to live in socity these slackers are where they are because that is where they belong nothing venture means nothing gained they should consider them selves lucky they do not live in a forest like primitive man would you think they would survive long if they decided to just not forage for food, make shelter, etc socity needs all members to contribute what they can those who do not should be sent to the woods to fend for them selves.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 42
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/18/2009 8:25:24 PM

I am explaining this in detail because I am sick and tired of being called a fool who says incongruent things. I say everything because I believe they are apropos to the topic, and because they are relevant. And I say of course jokes, but they are not at all totally removed in relevance from the topic at hand.


1. Neither I nor anyone else called you a fool.

2. If that many of your jokes fall flat, then perhaps you should stop joking in forums. In a medium that lacks voice inflection and facial expression, jokes can be difficult to spot.


Dear Gwendolyn; the Nazi example was uncalled for. The Octomum was not forced into an experiment unwillingly.


It doesn't matter if she were willing or not; nine lives were put on the line because of her selfish desire to be a brood mother. And not only that, her selfishness will affect the lives of not only her recent eight babies, but her other children for years.

If I volunteer to allow doctors to perform heinous experiments on me, does that mean it is ethical for them to do so? Remember the incident where the man in Germany killed and ate another man who gave his consent? Was that legal or ethical?


Octomum proved a whole lot more with her voluntary contribution. Indeed, we don't know the future, but if there IS going to be a dearth of women, a dire dearth of women, Octomum's example may come in very welcomed and handy.


So it has been proven that a woman can bear eight children--I still don't see how this truly sheds light on anything.

When the dire dearth of women comes about, humans should bow out and become extinct gracefully.
 moonshines
Joined: 3/24/2009
Msg: 43
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/23/2009 6:18:33 PM
All life is precious nor can any be replaced, we don't owe her but her children. As for the literalist in me, well.... society contributed to her thinking process, the idea she could have this many kids, thus if society contributed it has some responsibility for the event.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 44
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/23/2009 8:06:47 PM

society contributed to her thinking process,


With the plethora of problems with overpopulation, I don't see how society pressured her into having kids.
 Jiperly
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 45
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/24/2009 10:20:37 AM
It could be argued that she was- she felt there was an opportunity to ensure the livelihood of both her current and future children.

Also, overpopulation isn't really an issue in the West- in fact, most Western nations populations for nationally born citizens have been down for decades
 salmon steak
Joined: 4/13/2009
Msg: 46
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/24/2009 10:38:14 AM
I got a lecture from my dead beat welfare bum neighbours about money and life one day and I just stood up and said " some people have got to go to work in order for this system to provide what it does not every one can just sit at home and and do nothing"

They abuse the system and have no ambition to change... At the same time I don't really blame them either with their poor work ethic and lack of intelligence the only employment they could get would pay less than welfare which is 1600-1800$ or something a month where I used to live.

I'd rather have a bunch of dumb lazy people on welfare next door than have to waste good ammunition shooting at a thief running off with my power tools or patio furniture,lol
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 47
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/24/2009 12:18:42 PM
octo mom is a walking slap in the face to the system because they are dammed if they do something and dammed if they don't.... personally I think it was a setup with the doc and he should be facing charges.

Ok so look this way.... It is clear that she deliberatly had that many kids. BUT.... If they take the kids away then that sets a presidence in the legal system for others to file and start taking away peoples kids if they are struggling and need help..... what that would do as a result is parents that are struggling would then fear losing their kids and no longer seek out help to get things back on track.

The kids will ultimatly pay since for many that have troubles it is not a habit and works very well meaning the help is just enough to assist while in a crisis and in many cases is coupled with other help.

But the octo mom is not the case. Due to the situation there is no workout for it. too many kids to take care of and since she is not educated she has no hope to earn enough money to take care of them unless she enters into the income bracket of like star status. but her attitude is being counter productive.

When people tried to help her she flipped out because it wasn't what she pictured the help would be like.

I only know what i have seen and it just seemed to me like she is not the nurturing type and in my opinion which i think a few others also thought about.... I think she was expecting to get some large chunck of money and likely just disapearing.

She hinted to that before and then claimed it as being depressed.

So my thought would be she should be required to uphold the same standards as others. but no matter what due to the amount of kids even her at 100% doing her best still falls under neglect.

example.... in many child care settings like daycare etc. the child to staff ratio can not exceed 8-1 so for every 8 kids has to be 1 adult staff member... some places it is even less.

Those numbers come from studies done that show anything less and there is a deminished level of care. so using that data she is in the red zone even if she is 100% on her game which she is not due to all the time she takes for herself as well as talking to everyone. So the result will be those kids will not be raised by their mother.

The only hope will be for staff to be hired to offset the imbalance and of course she has no money to pay.

So what do you do.... any way you turn is a bad choice that has a chance of effecting MANY other people. partly due to the way the legal system is structured.

We don't owe her but as society we do owe the children because it is in our founding documents. they were born here so they are entitled to the same rights as you, me, anyone. We can not punish those children for something they did not have the power to control they did nothing wrong so if we as a society deny them their rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness ...we are bad.

my personal thoughts. find a doctor, a lawyer, a social worker, and a accountant that are all willing to step up to help our society. establish a trust fund that requires each of them to sign off on expences. Each one assisting by providing those children their services and have the childrens benifits deposited into that trust fund to be used for their care. and have them assigned as advocates to the children so that miss smarty pants octo mom can't pimp out and exploit those children making back room deals and basically cut her off she can have a roof over her head and food to eat.

BAH!!.... its a mess.... That would be a start at least then the kids would have a voice and someone on their side that could be able to THINK through choices.

and take away that doctors licence to send a message to anyone else wanting to attempt it. Last thing we need is a bunch of these cases running around... i already know there are many out there similar just not quite to this extream and the kids are always the ones who pay.

these are my opinions at least

EDIT by the term pimp out I did not mean literally pimp out i meant slang as in sell off their stories to media shows etc. If the children wish to when they are of age that would then be THIER choice... NOT HERS
 Connor-19
Joined: 1/27/2009
Msg: 48
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/24/2009 2:16:49 PM
Personally I don't believe that just because I live in the same city, state, or country as someone else (let alone that woman) I owe them anything.

I also wouldn't go out of my way to make life difficult for them...but if someone goes out and does what she did (have a total of 14 kids, not married, and going to college) I wouldn't touch that with a 100 mile pole.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 49
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/24/2009 2:42:23 PM

It could be argued that she was- she felt there was an opportunity to ensure the livelihood of both her current and future children.


This wasn't culturally motivated--it was selfishness. She wouldn't have needed to ensure the livelihood of eight more kids if she hadn't had them.


Also, overpopulation isn't really an issue in the West- in fact, most Western nations populations for nationally born citizens have been down for decades


True, but huge families are anomalies, not the status quo.
 ~DREAMS~
Joined: 1/8/2007
Msg: 50
What is Owed?
Posted: 4/24/2009 2:43:50 PM

Personally I don't believe that just because I live in the same city, state, or country as someone else (let alone that woman) I owe them anything.


Right but also think this way as well you are not doing it for her it is for the kids that didnt have a choice and don't have a choice. They are at the mercy of society as a whole now because their mom can't do it for them.

but you just brought up a good point. I am not implying anything BUT.... depending on what income you have others are likely thinking the same way about you.

example... most people still don't get it and don't understand and sad part i see a lot of them shouting the loudest.

two type of people come tax time... there are those that are happy when jan and febuary rolls around and then there is those that dread april.

I have seen with my own eyes many of those people that file their tax returns claim that earned income credit and wind up getting a refund check for MORE than they paid into the tax system and then in the next line bytch about how they are paying for people because they work and taxes get deducted out of their checks.

It makes them think that they pay..... but think those people are not paying to help maintain this country in fact the reverse is true that EIC is basically offered because someone is just a few steps above being on welfare. but since you did give it a shot and work well you get given a bonus hoping you will invest it in something that will increase your income so that some day you can actully help pay to keep the country running.

kinda like a good job here is a reward for at least trying ..now go back and work harder so that you can join the rest of us that don't get tax money back and have to pay in thousands instead.

so again like i said i am not judging but before you go judging someone else make sure you take a peek to see if you may be doing the same thing just worded different.

EIC is quite simply welfare for working people that still don't earn enough to contribute to the finacial burdens of keeping this great country running smoothly.

They won't call it that but I DO at least because i just say it how i see it.
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