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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > What is "Owed"?      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 AnnB72
Joined: 7/2/2012
Msg: 74
What is Owed?Page 5 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

Here's a bit of news..... nobody is giving you two weeks paid, you earned it. The two weeks off are factored into your pay level, as are all other benefits that you receive........ nobody is giving you anything, you are just getting that bit less in your salary that those "benefits" are costing the employer. I also do not think that "We have evolved to seek reward for efforts and have advanced with this principle." In order for that to happen, then it would be possible to pass on memories via DNA........ just doesn't happen. Mankind has always demanded pay, or rewards, for effort expended. That is nothing new, neither is the fact that those who don't work are looked upon with scorn. I see no reason to work while others sit on their asses and DEMAND what is OWED them...................


You just proved my point. There is no way to establish the sort of society the OP mentions with our current evolutionary thought processes. You are quite correct, sir.
 emotionalheat
Joined: 6/27/2007
Msg: 75
view profile
History
What is Owed?
Posted: 9/25/2012 10:03:32 PM

What else could it be, because ALL of those situations that you listed are covered. While there are people who really need just a temporary hand up, the rest seemingly take advantage of the benefits. Now I know that there will be a plethora of bleeding hearts who will decry what I write, but you really need to start thinking your way through life, instead of feeling your way through life.


Thinking without knowledge and the skill or ability to think critically is the difference between maintaining false stereotypical biases and well thought out conclusions. For Example:


Hispanics and Blacks continued to be much more likely than Whites and Asians to be among the working poor. In 2010, 14.1 percent of Hispanics and 12.6 percent of Blacks were among the working poor, compared with 6.5 percent of Whites and 4.8 percent of Asians.

Reference: A Profile of the Working Poor, 2010 - U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics www.bls.gov/cps/cpswp2010.pdf

Some people could read the whole report and walk away from it, convinced that the problem rests in the quote above.

For many people, the answer to better thinking is better education. So here it is. To assist in making some points, I have accessed the PDF (referenced above) for my quotes.

How do we define poverty?

The actual poverty thresholds vary with the makeup of the family. In 2010, the average poverty threshold for a family of four was $22,314; for a family of nine or more persons, the threshold was $45,220; and for an unrelated individual aged 65 years or older, it was $10,458. Poverty thresholds are updated each year, to reflect changes in the Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U). The thresholds do not vary geographically.

Income. Data on income are limited to money income—before personal income taxes and payroll deductions—received in the calendar year preceding the CPS supplement. Data on income do not include the value of noncash benefits, such as food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid, public housing, and employer-provided benefits.


Someone had mentioned luxuries – well let’s differentiate between necessity and luxuries.
A place to live, that has windows & doors protecting against the elements, (in my neighborhood, boards often make due) and electricity, a working furnace, a full working bathroom, hot & cold running water. Appliances – are they necessary? Well, preparing your food and being able to safely store it is a lot cheaper than going out to eat, so we should consider stove & refrigerator/freezer to be necessities. It doesn’t sound like too much does it? Don’t be surprised however, to learn that many people who work, do have all those things and they are just the barest of necessity.

Other necessities: food, healthcare products, detergents, paper products, clothes

If you live inner-city buses are usually available and some cities (like Chicago) have a pretty far reaching train system, but the train station are often miles away from the only place you can afford to live. And busses are not especially useful for people with children nor are they very useful for taking the families laundry to a pay per load laundry. So for most people, some form of independent transportation is necessary, and gas, oil changes, tire maintenance, car repairs and fuel.

Add to necessities, a vehicle AND car insurance. And when was the last time you saw a coin operated telephone and how miles apart did they appear? Add a phone to the necessities and while we’re at it – health insurance, dental & eye care insurance – they are necessary if a person wants to continue to be an able bodied employee, are they not? The last time I had a tooth extracted, it cost $300 and before I opted for corrective surgery (12 years ago) the estimate for an eye exam & glasses was about $600. Those are fees that are not possible on poverty level wages – unfortunately most of the working poor can’t even afford healthcare insurance.


Young workers are more vulnerable to poverty than are older age groups, in part because earnings are lower for young workers, and their unemployment rate is higher. In 2010, among youths who were in the labor force for 27 weeks or more, 14.4 percent of 16- to 19-year-olds and 15.5 percent of 20- to 24-year-olds were in poverty, about double the rate for workers age 35 to 44 (7.3 percent). Workers age 45 to 54 (4.9 percent), 55 to 64 (3.4 percent), and 65 and older (2.0 percent) had lower working-poor rates than did other age groups in 2010.


The young, between 16 and 24 often have children and may even be a married couple with children.


In 2010, 5.3 million families were living below the poverty level, despite having at least one member in the labor force for half the year or more, little different than the 2009 figure.

The proportion of families with children age 18 years and younger that lived in poverty was 12.7 percent, in contrast to 2.8 percent for families without children. About 28.2 percent of families maintained by a woman with children under the age of 18 were in poverty.


Consider the cost of raising children. Of course if you’ve never had children you will need to do some deep thinking.


There are three major labor market problems that can hinder a worker’s ability to earn an income above the poverty threshold: low earnings, periods of unemployment, and involuntary part-time employment. (See the technical note for detailed definitions.)
In 2010, 84 percent of the working poor who usually worked full time experienced at least one of the major labor market problems. Low earnings continued to be the most common problem, with nearly two-thirds (63 percent) subject to low earnings, either alone or in combination with other labor market problems. About 42 percent experienced unemployment alone or in conjunction with other problems.


A more accurate view of people who use the safety nets, that so many call welfare, are people that want to work and are willing to work but their livelihoods are not stable, and low pay amounts to NO savings to pad for medical bills, major car repairs, or just forced part-time work (because of weather, or sales being down). One incident and the person or family STEP into the revolving welfare system.

But poverty is not always the result of living at its edge – natural disasters (we’ve had a number of them in the last several years) can leave people homeless, desolate, and without a job. How many people who survived Katrina ended up hitching their way out of the city, even the state, just to find work. Some of those people were in the welfare system for years, and even for those who are still in the system, they are not always at fault, many work part-time but they are unskilled workers, who had to start with NOTHING.

I hope some people have gained a slightly different perspective from this information. Anyone can find themselves homeless, jobless, living in poverty.

xane_111 Msg. 89 put into proper perspective:


So the question isn't really about 'whats owed' and alot more about whats better:

-Help those who need it with a few people taking advantage of the situation
or
-Help no one including those who need it to stop the minority that could take advantage.
 slybandit
Joined: 7/10/2006
Msg: 76
What is Owed?
Posted: 9/26/2012 11:57:45 AM
@xane_111:

1. "Because of the stigma, lack of rehabilitation, lack of change [in the] environment that generates this behaviou[r], said person will also spend much of his time out of prison on state benefits and housing assistance."

You are omitting the voluntary choices a person makes to engage in criminal behavior, as a cause of that behavior.

Re-labeling a series of conscious decisions to engage in criminal behavior as "lack of rehabilitation" is excuse-making, especially if one considers the fact that the number of crimes people are actually apprehended and punished for, is generally a tip-of-the-iceberg fraction of the number of crimes they commit, for which they are never punished.

None of these "environmental" excuses for criminal behavior are remotely convincing-- for every person that re-offends, one can easily point to others in nearly identical circumstances who do not. For every person that offends, one can easily to point to others in nearly identical circumstances who do not offend at all.

2. "Are you just going to stop all help of all situations because some people behave in this fashion?" That is a textbook example of the rhetorical technique of false dichotomy. The situation is presented as if we only had two public-policy choices, to help no one in need, or to help everyone in need, regardless of the role of their own choices in creating their own problems. There is no particular reason why assessment of personal responsibility should not factor into eligibility for assistance. If anything, such an element would remove much of the basis for attack against benefit programs on the basis that they are abused by the undeserving.

3. As for the causes of homelessness, I could easily be convinced that your estimate of 1/3 is conservative.

That being said: (1) persistence in drug "addiction" is very much a matter of personal choice, contrary to prevalent mythology, (2) previous criminality is, again, a product of choice far more than environmental factors, (3) "significant issues in life" is so broad as to be meaningless-- homelessness itself is a "significant issue". Just because someone who is homeless does not want to be homeless, does not mean that homelessness is not an overwhelmingly predictable consequence of choices they made. If you spend the rent money on drugs, you will wind up homeless, it's predictable. There's a big difference between that, and not having the rent money because you lost your job.

Probably the majority of people who go on "social assistance" get off social assistance and become pr0ductive. But there is a big difference between looking at the total population who ever receive social assistance, and the total population who are on social assistance at any given time. You can easily have a majority of "temporary" recipients among all recipients, while the majority of recipients at any given time are in fact permanent or semi-permanent recipients, that is just basic statistics.

It's a false dichotomy, once more, to assume that we have to have the same policies in dealing with "temporary" recipients of social assistance as chronic recipients.

4. As for your own situation, xane_111, you are probably an example of both the causes of much of the problem and the solution. You have certainly learned from experience that sending out applications for advertised jobs has a low success rate, and that education and credentials are no guarantee of a job.

First off, no one should be looking for a job in that fashion unless they have no other choice, it just does not work well as a technique. Second, if what you really wanted to do was start your own business, sending out applications was a waste of time, really misguided effort. Third, and more importantly, entrepreneurship ought to be the *first* choice, not the last option.
 emotionalheat
Joined: 6/27/2007
Msg: 77
view profile
History
What is Owed?
Posted: 9/26/2012 5:16:05 PM

One thing that is certain, is that if you were to look at the rolls of people dependant on, and receiving "help" from the government, you would see that those rolls are increasing, not decreasing. Can you tell me why that is true?


There is no doubt that we have seen a large increase of people needing assistance to live. Why? The answers have already been provided. However, if you want deeper reasoning then we need to look at what has caused a lack of jobs. We need to look at what caused millions of people to lose their homes (their only investment). We need to look at problems within the K-12 public education systems. We need to look at the price tag of higher education and the persistently HIGH interest and penalty rates associated with paying back educational loans. We need to look at a legal system in which discrimination is both implicit and institutionalized. We need to look at the millions of homeless (and alone) children under the age of 16 who lack shelter availability.

If you can tell me how we can fix all those problems, I can tell you how to decrease the increasing number of people who are in need of public assistance.

At the moment what I can do is prepare you for further demand on assistance programs as food prices push upward, thanks to market speculation. This means that nonprofit food pantries will suffer severe shortages as well. Many people have been able to avoid public assistance by using that resource, it has certainly come in handy for me. When this resource falls short of demand the need for public assistance will rise even further.

And here is another reason why the need for public assistance will rise, the attack on Planned Parenthood. There will be more women reporting to emergency rooms (on the public’s dollar) and more babies to support because both, affordable birth control and abortion options are no longer available. Many women will no longer be able to afford the health-care & health-screenings PP provides. So we have just upped the ante because when women get sick they will just go to the nearest emergency room. Prevention is a hell of a lot cheaper than treatment.

Any solutions are forthcoming?
 MissesMiko
Joined: 8/5/2012
Msg: 78
What is Owed?
Posted: 9/26/2012 6:32:44 PM
I believe our ethical responsibilities is reflected in Nature....
We are to grow....we can assist others in growing, but ultimately each human is responsible for their own individual growth experience.

We have a right to be here as much as the plants, trees and animals.....why we've had to prove this, is beyond most understanding.
 amatorhominum
Joined: 7/24/2012
Msg: 79
What is Owed?
Posted: 9/26/2012 7:22:01 PM
The only obligation one man has to another is to behave rationally. No man has the right to say 'by virtue of the fact that you exist, you owe me x...'. Healthcare and such are NOT rights. The government has no right to steal from one to give to another.

I believe our ethical responsibilities is reflected in Nature....
We are to grow....we can assist others in growing, but ultimately each human is responsible for their own individual growth experience.

If what you are saying is that every man is responsible for himself, I agree.

We have a right to be here as much as the plants, trees and animals.....why we've had to prove this, is beyond most understanding.

I would go so far as to say plants have no rights being that they are not conscious.
 MissesMiko
Joined: 8/5/2012
Msg: 80
What is Owed?
Posted: 9/26/2012 7:27:00 PM

plants have no rights being that they are not conscious

The consciousness of plants only reside in your awareness of them.

But everything that exists has a right to exist, otherwise it would cease to exist.....lol :)
 amatorhominum
Joined: 7/24/2012
Msg: 81
What is Owed?
Posted: 9/26/2012 8:09:30 PM

The consciousness of plants only reside in your awareness of them.

My consciousness recognizing an existent (a thing that exits), such as a plant, does not make it conscious. I'm not sure I get what you mean by this.

But everything that exists has a right to exist, otherwise it would cease to exist

The concepts of 'rights' is a political one that only applies to certain living beings. It is not a metaphysical concept I.E., an existent does not have a 'right' to exist, it simply exists.
 MissesMiko
Joined: 8/5/2012
Msg: 82
What is Owed?
Posted: 9/26/2012 9:16:24 PM
This consciousness I'm referring to is that which resides in our oneness here on the planet, the very same life energy that cause plants to grow is the same energy force that keeps our hearts pumping.....whether we label plants or trees as conscious or unconscious is irrelevant to the fact that the connectedness we share lies in this unity.
Our liquid eyes gives reference to those life energies all around the planet, regarding nature----this is the essence of consciousness.....our very awareness of their existence transmutes into consciousness.


is not a metaphysical concept I.E., an existent does not have a 'right' to exist, it simply exists

......all things are allowed here, is the bottom line of my sentence, a debate about it is unnecessary.
There are infinite truths here as well....:)
 amatorhominum
Joined: 7/24/2012
Msg: 83
What is Owed?
Posted: 9/26/2012 9:30:36 PM

This consciousness I'm referring to is that which resides in our oneness here on the planet, the very same life energy that cause plants to grow is the same energy force that keeps our hearts pumping.....whether we label plants or trees as conscious or unconscious is irrelevant to the fact that the connectedness we share lies in this unity.

This seems to be arbitrary mysticism, so all I can say to this is: what evidence do you have to suggest this?

......all things are allowed here, is the bottom line of my sentence, a debate about it is unnecessary.
There are infinite truths here as well....:)

Rights still do not apply to everything and things aren't 'allowed' to exist (they just do). Unless you're coming from a religious perspective in which case I can't say much except that it's arbitrary again.
 J_bird61
Joined: 10/22/2011
Msg: 84
What is Owed?
Posted: 9/26/2012 9:48:21 PM
It's a really nice and compassionate idea. But we're not ready for something like that yet, if ever.
Best we can do is welfare? Everyone deserves, maybe not the same, but some? The "same" would lead you to communism.
And in our set-up you have to prove you deserve it.
And yes, humans do derserve a good life but that doesn't mean they will get one.
We are so far from that solution.
 MissesMiko
Joined: 8/5/2012
Msg: 85
What is Owed?
Posted: 9/26/2012 10:16:19 PM
ALL THINGS ARE ARBITRARY! ;)
 amatorhominum
Joined: 7/24/2012
Msg: 86
What is Owed?
Posted: 9/26/2012 10:59:58 PM

ALL THINGS ARE ARBITRARY! ;)

Reality is objective, necessary, and primary to human consciousness.
 MissesMiko
Joined: 8/5/2012
Msg: 87
What is Owed?
Posted: 9/27/2012 11:08:48 AM

Reality is objective, necessary, and primary to human consciousness.


....its still arbitrary, being that EVERYONE experiences multi-realties.....you can argue that its necessary and primary to human consciousness----but what makes it "necessary & primary"??
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