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Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 76
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gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this? Page 4 of 12    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)
Gaslighting, abuse is literal brainwashing.........a slow process, in which the person doesn't see what is happening.

It is a process which denies reality and one feels as if they are going mad.

Lived that way for 31 years.
Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 77
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gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 7/27/2012 11:24:43 AM
wow, i wrote this a few years ago and got two emails about it just recently. so come to find the thread has resurrected.

makes me sad, because now nothing like this is in my life. sure, people lie (especially one's kids), but not with such vicious underpinnings and agendas.

for those who are still in it: all you can do is work on yourself and get out. but, if you don't work on yourself, you may attract it or some other version of abuse/neglect in the next person. for the lady who says she keeps looking for it, in her current relationship, they call this hyper vigilance. for a person who is not susceptible, s/he can smell it a mile away. it does have a distinct odor to it. if you don't smell it, then it's not here. but you do have to work on your own nose! if you cannot tell the difference, then you really need to work it out in therapy. perhaps some aromatherapy (sorry, still have my sense of humor that keeps me going:))

also look up the concept of "paradigm shift".

i had asked our trusted family therapist, who we go to in times of working things out with respect to communication and daily living, as to how and why people in "functional" relationships stay together. her answer was brief and to the point. you know you are loved when s/he ' HAS YOUR BACK'!

it cinched the deal for me. does your partner have your back? if you feel not in a specific occurrence, is it something that can be worked on and fixed right away versus something insidious? sometimes a partner does not know how you feel about a particular situation, but if you both work on resolution in therapy, it does not happen again.

you don't have to agree. yes, you can argue, even sulk for a bit. but at the end of the day, s/he must be your best friend with none of this one upsmanship or pleasure that comes at the other's expense.

also, you have to believe you will find a good relationship--or else you won't. i never gave up for any length of time. not desperate but determined!

ps one last thought for those involved with active alcoholics. many black out and say things did not happen because they don't remember. that is another issue. not intentionally gas lighting with deliberate and systematic receipt to put you in harms way. not to say that does not also need to be addressed personally and in any alcoholic relationship.
Joined: 11/9/2006
Msg: 78
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 7/27/2012 12:22:32 PM
Nobody hangs out a sign, "Willing to be abused." Successful abusers start slowly. Physical abusers also use mental abuse to control their victims so they won't leave. The whole point of gaslighting is to control the victim's thinking, so that they won't realize they are being manipulated. I once knew a woman whose husband not only gaslighted her, he poisoned her, too. He kept her isolated, without a vehicle, no money, etc. When she tried to get help, he manipulated the situation and now that they are divorced he continues to torment her by using the courts, the children's schools, doctors etc. to make her look like she's crazy and an unfit mother. Unfortunately, there is very little help for women who are victims of abuse of any kind. But, you won't see that as a campaign issue anywhere!

Yes, I'm sure women do this too, but not as prevalent since our culture prefers to view women as the helper, nurturer of men role and not the reverse, so just makes it a lot easier to pull off as women are less likely to stand up to a man when it starts so slowly. And remember, we usually have our love is blind-ers on to some extent.
Joined: 12/20/2011
Msg: 79
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 7/27/2012 8:53:09 PM
Yes, I've seen "Gaslight" (Ingred Bergman, Charles Boyer). I was with someone for five years who started gaslighting me about three years into our relationship. I didn't realize until later the toll his behaviors were taking on me, or even that I was experiencing abuse. As others have described, gaslighting begins subtly. Then it ramps up. My friends were concerned long before I was. I would give an example, but I am still too devastated to write about the way I let him treat me.

I think gaslighting is narcissism mixed with sadism, but I am not sure. I am so cautious now.
Joined: 5/2/2012
Msg: 80
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 7/29/2012 10:26:27 PM
this is a must watch movie.
I am so glad I watched it years ago.
It helps to know and to be aware that there are people out there who do this sort of thing.
Joined: 4/20/2012
Msg: 81
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/1/2012 11:55:06 PM
I'm really glad you started this post; it can really serve a purpose. I put up with this gaslighter for 20+ years. Hopefully, it can help others get out sooner. I'm in the process of divorcing him now, but am worried about our 13 year old daughter, who he contacts daily. Do you think he will try this on her? Thats what I'm worried about. I've really been hard on myself for letting him do this to me all these years, it's not as though I couldn't have gotten out sooner. I am a professional and am now pursueing my master's. It was tough to get away, but I'm so glad I finally did. Just a word of advise to the younger women/men out there: Don't wait 20 years like I did; you won't ever change him/her. It will be a continual emotional roller coster and it seems they get worse as they get older, could be a progressive (mental) disease, I suppose.
Joined: 7/2/2012
Msg: 82
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/4/2012 10:37:17 AM
Ohhh yess,
Happened to me after I was coming out of a very vulnerable time., plus the guy was a counsellor so I figured that what he said was true cause he knows this stuff right?

at first he was totally smitten with me.. after about 3 months one morning out of nowhere he just started on about something..I don't even remember what, but I was stunned. Of course tried to placate him even though I didn't know went from there.

Started about how I was dressing..too provocative or too pretty. I was too sexy.
Then came the eating.. didn't like what I was eating or how much. Threw a tantrum if I wanted to go for an ice cream cone.

Then it was talking to any other man..progressed to I don't want you to go to the gym anymore because somebody might hit on you.. I was going to that gym for years before that.. nobody EVER hit on me..

Then it came down to just my behaviours and personality in general..He would want me to be one way, but then that would be wrong too.

Soo it went on and on basically he used what he knew as a counsellor to his advantageto belittle me or make me feel small about who I was. Said I embarrassed him when we went out. I was always wrong.

I lost my self-esteem altogether, stopped going to the gym, stuffed myself with pastries , gained a bunch of weight and then he didn't want to sleep with me anymore because I wasn't thin and pretty anymore. stopped wearing my pretty clothes,, because ummmm they didn't fit anymore and quite frankly I just lost interest in myself. Read the start of my post again.

I remember calling a friend one day crying and saying, "if everything he says about me is true then I don't even know who I am." I thought I was going crazy.

Anyways got myself into counselling and lots of it..
Every counsellor I had told me it was extreme emotional abuse and to get out.

But I believed that since he was a counsellor , that made him right.

Finally got it, he's gone and I'm back at the gym boxing and pretending it's his face every time I hit the bag.

I'm feeling better but I must say it really has left the scars of not feeling good enough or not measuring up.

I'm constantly worried to the point of apologizing to peopl for my weight gain.

Big lesson.. nobody ever gets to do that to me again. I can spot it almost right away..

Just my 2 cents

Joined: 7/2/2012
Msg: 83
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/4/2012 10:41:08 AM
Yes it started very slowly and went on for 4 yrs.. He would dissapear for weeks at a time.. that was my "punishment" for doing something he didn't like..

Long and lonely time.. never again.. EVER
Joined: 1/21/2006
Msg: 84
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gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/4/2012 1:13:11 PM
availablein2012, my answer to your question regarding your daughter: i would take her and you and seek therapy on this matter. i was the child of an alcoholic and yes, it affects the kids.

as to it happening more to women than men, i disagree. i do think women are more aware of it and tend to talk about it. i know many many men from acoa and in my personal circles who meet up with abusive, plotting, crafty women. they just sink inside themselves and think they are not "manly". just look at the things finally surfacing about sexual abuse against men. why is this just now reaching the general public? we discussed this in acoa in new jersey 20 years ago! many of these abusive men, have been abused as children or even as young men. one of my male friends had a tiny little wife, who waited til he slept and poured boiling water over him. he kept it to himself for many years as when he went to police as an over 6 foot guy, they laughed at him.

even now, i get private emails because men don't want to post on the topic. not "manly". remember, STRENGTH IN VULNERABLITY!!! i said this years ago and now hear others saying it a lot. must have been passed around. or as an al anon man once said to me, "cannot give it away, 'til you own it"!!!

so many bang their heads on the walls, when all they need to do is walk out into the sunlight via the unlocked door. but, we find all sorts of excuses not to do it. yes, many are beaten down, but others will crawl out if they have to do it that way. so many victims of domestic abuse go back from the shelters. why? so many different answers. but, how about their male children over 15 are not allowed to stay with them or forced into foster care, because some other male child, was abusive. so now all of them are cast out and back they go to the situation! then there is the "i love him" group. let's face it, for some, adrenaline makes good sex. however, this is not "love". the two people are one person. cannot live with just the good half. that was my early lesson.
Joined: 5/27/2011
Msg: 85
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gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/9/2012 7:45:08 PM
You are a wise and insightful woman, Serenity.
Joined: 2/27/2009
Msg: 86
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/9/2012 8:10:22 PM
i just wanted to post that this is the most interesting, profound posts i have read yet on pof. thank you for sharing it.
i read it from time to time. i have nothing to share as far as my experience with situation..except that i definitely have been through it - i never had or heard of a NAME for it though.
it's pretty enlightening to me.
Joined: 2/27/2009
Msg: 87
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/9/2012 8:21:00 PM
this is happening to me. no longer on a daily basis as i divorced my children's father 12 years ago and TRY to have no contact with him as much as possible. we were in court for 6 yrs., then again recently after 12 yrs he took me to court and took custody of our youngest daughter. she is totally "brainwashed" now. dropping out of school and he allows her to stay out all night and smoke pot. i understand he smokes with her or at least around her.
i've done all i can to do what i thought was saving my children. the older ones are grown now and great "kids".
i have exhausted all my resources.
the best advice i can give myself is to never get involved with anyone like this again.
just wanted to share that cause i liked your post.
Joined: 7/24/2012
Msg: 88
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/12/2012 9:36:55 AM
Yes, I've experienced and lived with a man for 29 years, married 25 years .. who was an expert on doing this to me. Thing was that he created this fantasy world in his head and those became his memories. He was so convincing because as far as he was concerned he was telling the truth.

I guess that I am more fortunate than most because he passed away and can no longer hurt me or the grown children.

On heck of a thing that someone has to die for others to feel safe ...

Gaslighting is also a big trick that players use when denying they are cheating, make it feel like you are imagining things .. that you are over-reacting, that your feelings and gut instincts are wrong..

God, I feel so old at times, that I know all this stuff first hand ..
Joined: 6/22/2012
Msg: 89
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/12/2012 5:01:02 PM
OMG!!! Thank you for putting a name to something I suffered through 2 marriages. After a while, I learned and fought it with total indifference. Which takes a lot of strength. You cannot change another person. You can only change yourself. It WAS the lack of confidence and self-esteem on their part. I've noticed , in my search on this site, it has affected the way I view the men. But too much guard up is not a good thing. I'm working on that, but am able to read them better with all the stress endured in earlier years. Thanks again........A.
Joined: 5/29/2010
Msg: 90
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/13/2012 1:14:10 PM
Ummm....OP, if you are going to put forth such a topic, my suggestion would be that you make sure you are accurate. IN that, I mean that asserting that "mostly Men" do this is patently a false allegation.

Gaslighting is a very very real form of abuse, and thank you for enlightening people to this very real issue but please, do not ad-lib with opinions. The below article with link shows that Women instigate acts of abuse "as much as if not MORE" than their male counterparts. I know this will be very unpopular for this particular thread but a 120+ empirical and independent studies will confirm what I opinion....just facts.....

Why Women Assault

College Women Who Initiate Assaults on their Male Partners and the Reasons Offered for Such Behavior.

Psychological Reports, 80, 583-590 (1997)
Article, table © 1997 by Murray A. Straus
Review © 1999 by Bert H. Hoff

Dr. Fiebert's paper makes a valuable contribution to research into domestic violence. A lot of attention has been paid to debates over whether women initiate assaults as often as men, and whether assaults by women are dangerous. Relatively little has been paid to why women initiate assaults. (One reason for this, I suggest, is an "ideology" that women are not violent and that domestic violence is a sign of male oppression of women--see The Duluth Model.)
Joined: 8/10/2012
Msg: 91
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/13/2012 2:41:19 PM
OP: I thank you from the bottom of my soul searching over this last year to care enough to bring this topic to the forefront and discuss it. I too now have a term to call what happened to me within a short term relationship I entered last year that left long term effects on me and my life.

I had teachers classmates, family and my teenage child come to me and tell me to get rid of a man I
cared for very deeply as they were very concerned for me and new something was very very wrong and that I wasn't myself.

It took me months of soul searching to try and figure out what the heck happened and to sort out my left over messed up inside/out feelings. I'm not going to share my full story because I've just sat here and found things in almost every post in one form or another. I read all 7 pages. I found key words and phrases that were the exact and identical phrases I used to try and explain to my friends and family about the situation. Because when your in it.. and when you come out of it.. your such a mess... it's extremely hard to explain to anyone because it's not just one little thing, its a combination of many many things, and the rules change, or are adjusted ever so slightly and suttley when you least expect it. They do then start to ever so slowly start to withhold all or some information from you so you start to lose perspective on the whole big picture and tell you your perception is skewed. Technically it is, but that.. is because they want it to be!

What compelled me to keep reading on? Because I got the jist of on page one and really didn't need to sit here and keep reading all 7 pages. As repeated by many posters.... who have truly been the victim of a genuine "Gaslighter" was summed up in Message #9 by English Lass on the first page. That one post alone, describes it ever so detailed and explicitly it was eerily uncanny!

I also want to thank the many posters for sharing and can relate wholeheartedly. I too agree with the odd post, on borderline personality disorders, Narcissistic personality disorders as I had read up on them during and after the fact. But it never really described what was really happening to me or in full as so detailed as poster #9!!!!

As expected I also read the negative and accusatory remarks to own your own stuff by some posters. To take responsibility for your own sh-it. (which I have) and which was quote: something my Gaslighter would say to me!!!!
Why would he say that? Because he never did anything wrong you see, so it can only be my fault. They claim no responsibility for any of it.

and and so I leave them with this.... I too can stand up and say, Yes, I am responsible for what happens to me and what I allow in my life. But I didn't' deserve it or go looking for. Or even "invite" it into my life as I've heard the odd person say about abuse.

What I can say to those that like to kick an abused person when they are down is this:

You have either been there, are there or you are headed there!!! Often, one of the side effects of real abuse is the Abusee becomes the Abuser!!!
Joined: 8/10/2012
Msg: 92
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/14/2012 5:37:01 AM
^^^Too Funny! I am laughing with you and glad we can laugh about it after the fact.
Joined: 5/29/2010
Msg: 93
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/14/2012 11:28:11 AM
If you can get past the gender reversal (you ladies) Dr. Tara Palmetier and Dr. Shari Schrieber have been leading the charge for about a decade into the revealing research of Narcissist and borderline and Histrionics personality disorders (commonly referred to as "Cluster B" )

Go to their respective websites and see if you don't find yourself looking around your home for hidden camera's. Post #9 will pale in comparison.

You also mention "coming out of it" That is referred to as waking up from the FOG. FOG = Fear, Obligation and Guilt that your SO made you feel during every single verbal exchange. It takes a few months to a few years to completely rid yourself of "Fleas" (Fleas are mannerisms and thought patterns you pick up from your ClusterB ex) and return to your normal cheery self.

"Cheery Self"? jham, how do you know I was/am Cheery?

Cluster B sufferers target "nice guys/Nice Gals on purpose. The reason the Cluster B chose you was due to the fact that you passed with flying colors a series of "sh!t test" that you were have to be an easy go lucky people pleaser to begin with, folks that also exhibit selfish traits or have good boundary skills are usually discarded by the Cluster B in lieu of an easy more malleable target. Therefore you passing the "sh!t test" is why you were not discarded.

I am an abused man of a 20 year marriage. At year 17....I found out what has been occurring to me and I have been studying this topic non-stop since's a nasty club to belong to, but one doesn't necessarily apply to get in....The Club chooses you, rather.

You also mention "withholding" if you can Google that term and get past the US Tax code links, you'll find that withholding is a common practice of abusers. They withhold info as well as intimacy as a form of control. If you are always "hoping to get" [insert whatever you desire here] from them....then they have power over you by dolling out morsels of what you desire....this keeps you jumping through their hoops of control in order to obtain whatever it is you desire. (For men, it is usually sex and intimacy, for women it is usually verbal attention)
Joined: 1/30/2012
Msg: 94
view profile
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/14/2012 1:26:29 PM
the weird thing about this is.. you tell your family or friends and the first thing they say is... you would never let that happen.. you are too strong. *sigh* I wonder if its because folks are strong they think they can "handle" it. You know its happening, and you can even say it out loud, yet no one beleives it. Makes you feel even more alone.
Joined: 8/10/2012
Msg: 95
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/14/2012 1:45:38 PM
Jham and Wonder... see.. as I've said, I've read every post for a reason.

Jahm, withholding more than information happened and you are correct, anything I mentioned I did like was from that point on withheld. Including sex.

Wonder yep, even my ex from a previous relationship long ago who cheated told me he thought I was the strongest woman he ever new. We have moved forward but remain amicable if not distant in our affairs as we are stationed in the same location for a specific time frame and it cannot be changed. But he too was concerned at the time and after the break up with this person we did discuss what had happened.

I had many people reiterate to me what was done was wrong and what I thought was right. It was just the wrong guy for me. I even had plutonic male acquaintance friends of his come and ask me if he had beaten me physically it affected my self-esteem so bad.

At this age, you think you've seen and heard it all and if not been through it yourself, know someone who has. So you know better. So when I met him I was happy and in a good place in my life and had life goals and ambitions I was accomplishing and completing. Hey, I've had some crappy things happen within relationships in my life but I've never come out of a relationship saying I was abused and not being able to describe or pinpoint it for months. As time went on all I could say was stupid little things that happened that I remembered and stood firm in my belief in my claim that I was in fact emotionally and psychologically abused. It took me a long time to sort it all out. So when I saw this article it also compelled me to post as well.

What is also hard to get over, is there are many out there that know us both and believe him. That too is hard to face and hard to comprehend. But because some of his acquaintance friends came to me and telling me they know he is abusive they had heard it before. Until then, I walked around dazed and confused.

Sometimes its not acknowledgement, or retribution to heal, it's just people that have the guts to come to you and tell you the truth to set you free. It's not you doubt yourself it's that you feel alone and condemned for your claims. As I heard it from more and more people it helped immensely. Now... I just don't' care what people believe. To me... it's the truth!

Joined: 5/29/2010
Msg: 96
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/14/2012 2:12:24 PM
After being emotionally abused for years/decades, you'd wished you had been physically assaulted. It would have at least been obvious as to what was happening to you.

Emotional abuse (in my opinion) is way worse than getting smacked around by someone now and again. (Yes, mine hit me on occasion....."GASP" jham! you let a girl hit you?? You Whimp!) Trust me, the physical was much easier to bear.

Emotional abuse, from a Cluster B is not something you can easily explain to friends or Family. The Abuser is very cunning and only allows the mask to slip in your presence. Their outward appearance is so so crucial. They also will try to isolate you from any form of outside support. So, after a while you aren't allowed to talk to this person or that family member....and you are so hungry for the morsels that you accept it in hopes that if you are 'good' the abuser will return to this person you thought /think is inside your abusers head.

Let me digress, The abuser "love Bombs" you in the beginning. They are chameleons and they morph into this dream person for go for 6-12 months (or whatever it takes to hook you) and you think you hit the 'mother load' of dream your mind, there is no way life could be any better now that you've found this oh so attentive person....This person that makes you feel so complete and so loved!!!

Then, once you are hooked, the mask slips and slowly but surely the abuse starts and progresses....

Until after a while, you are no longer you....your esteem is so gone as you seem to start to believe that you are in fact "no good"....I mean...No matter what you do, your dream spouse just seems to never validate you as a person or your mind, you are a failure for doing the very things that make you who you are. You spend years trying to become "good enough" for your Abuser....if you 'just' reach some benchmark, surely your Abuser will love you again like they did in the beginning. Trouble is, if a goal is ever defined, once you dare to reach that goal, you find that the mark has been moved, ala Charlie Brown and Lucy with the Football. Lucy ALWAYS moves the ball and Charlie Brown always gets duped.

All this abuse is totally COVERT! Cluster B abuser will never allow others to see all the things they do to you to undermine your efforts in life and to boot, if things start to go awry, they'll go on a smear campaign that would make Obama blush. They gather all these "Negative advocates" that side with them as they think the abuser is the victim!!! AND YOU are the abuser!!! You'll never out crazy 'crazy'!

Talking to friends and family that have never experience all this, is like speaking Vulcan to them, there is a RARE chance that they will EVER understand anything you tell them.

It sucks....but guess what?? After landing on the other side of being abused, I am so so much wiser. And when a new Crazy Hottie comes wiggling her ass around me, I can spot Cluster B from a mile away.....the Red Flags are so so glaring to me now.
Joined: 5/29/2010
Msg: 97
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/14/2012 2:21:28 PM

What is also hard to get over, is there are many out there that know us both and believe him. That too is hard to face and hard to comprehend.

AC, That is what I meant by him gathering "Negative Advocates" to "MOB" you and further abuse you. Your former friends have joined with him unbeknownst to them and became a team of Abusers...all at his control.

This is so so wrong, but you are dealing with a sick mind that has no issue smearing your name all over town all in an attempt to make himself the poor victim.

Sometimes its not acknowledgement, or retribution to heal, it's just people that have the guts to come to you and tell you the truth to set you free. It's not you doubt yourself it's that you feel alone and condemned for your claims. As I heard it from more and more people it helped immensely. Now... I just don't' care what people believe. To me... it's the truth!

Yes, This is the validation that you are looking for......just anyone to believe that such a thing could happen and DOES happen and HAS happened to you!!!

All I can say is "I hear you, and I feel for you"

You don't know me, but I'll be there if you ever need to talk. It's a tough tough thing to get over and you are suffering from PTSD. Going at it alone is very very hard.

healthy strong folks can fight it off (and that may be you) but others (myself included) need a few years of "talking it out" to get past the PTSD.

I've been counseling now for about 18 months (Men and Women).
Joined: 8/10/2012
Msg: 98
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/14/2012 2:40:48 PM
Jham your right... I spent a lot of time talking to family and close friends trying to sort it all out. I suffered and they suffered and YES, I was condemned and ostracized by a mob of folks that stood by poor him. That after math was the worst and hurt the most. It takes the dealing with it (relationship breakup) and the healing from it to a new level and extends the suffering longer.

As I said... I had goals and ambitions to finish. I was in school working on a double diploma and held it all in while I finished it off and graduated. Part of my drive was to deliberately, graduate in spite of him because that is what he wanted for me to crash and fail and I was not about to give that up and crash and burn for him.

Funny you should mention PTSD. When I started feeling more myself I used that term to describe what I felt then too.

Once again confirming Jham that in fact I had been a victim of a Gaslighter! Knowing now in full and understanding the term and the effects I can honestly say it makes you a better and a stronger person.
Joined: 1/30/2012
Msg: 99
view profile
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/14/2012 2:49:50 PM
Interesting.. I was told by a friend of mine I had PTSD symthoms. I had taken a couple of CISM (critical insident stress management) course as I was working towards becoming a law enformcement chaplain (which I did complete :) ) It was during that time I realized what I was going through. Seeing it in black and white and realizing it wasn't just the class I was taking but my own diagnosis and treatment was huge to me.

I am still healing, and i do believe that if you get out in the world before you have your self confidence back it would be possible to find yourself back into that kind of relationship.

Its sad to see so many that relate to this. but its cool to get it out in the open and chat about it. Kind of seems to reason that on a dating site there would be so many that can relate.
Joined: 1/30/2012
Msg: 100
view profile
gaslighting, has anyone ever experienced this?
Posted: 8/14/2012 2:56:12 PM
Oh and Jham123.. your information is invaluable. Thanks so much for sharing it :)
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