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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Who believed the Earth is Flat???      Home login  
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 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 12
Who believed the Earth is Flat???Page 2 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
No Star, you do not live on flatland. Where you live is concave.....until next month


Lived, past tense. Dropped the 'd' originally. Every now and then, though, my mind goes back. Especially when I hear the phrase "but it's a dry cold."

Spent my 11th birthday filling sandbags with my family. that was a ton of fun!
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 13
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 4/13/2009 6:18:04 AM
@ Scorp


<div class="quote">I love your experiment, JustDukky. Only one problem with it. It's not to scale.

Okay Mr. Smartypants... You asked for it!... Let's scrap the "marble" argument for the moment. If the Earth wasn't flat, all the water would quickly run off and the oceans would dry up. In fact even on a flat Earth that would happen (albeit more slowly). It is therefore logical to conclude that Earth has a raised rim to keep the oceans in, or is slightly bowl-shaped (support for the Concave Earth Theory). I of course subscribe to the former hypothesis since those "Concave Earthers" are a bunch of nut cases with no scientific credibility!
 Mr.Twist
Joined: 2/11/2009
Msg: 16
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History
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 4/14/2009 11:29:20 AM
I will fully support the flat earth theorists until someone buys me a(or multiple, if needed) plane tickets so I can fly 'around' the planet.
 Damienevil
Joined: 2/22/2008
Msg: 17
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 4/28/2009 9:21:48 PM
the avg person thought the world was flat sailor did not and people who traveled alot on water did not.

Do remember the avg person back in the day did not really travel much beyond their little valleys in their life.
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 18
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 4/29/2009 5:22:20 AM
Which thread are you talking about...? I haven't seen one that discusses a growing earth.

Also...

-If you're talking about the ones who say that the earth gains several hundred tons per year due to meteorite impacts... that's pretty much the accepted norm.

-If you're talking about people who say that the earth is growing at a rate that causes gravity... well, we call a spade a spade, and nonsense is nonsense.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 19
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 4/29/2009 8:01:04 AM

it's sad to see history repeat it's self as a select few geologists are stepping forward with growing earth and growing universe theories that are laughed at by the scientific community.


The growing universe is not being laughed at since there is more than sufficient evidence to support it.

As discussed (and you flatly refused to believe, regardless of the evidence presented) the growing Earth "theory" - along with growing Moon, Europa and other planets - is laughable at the get-go as it lacks any real evidence beyond lovely little graphics created by a cartoonist. It's not science. It's fantasy.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 20
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 4/29/2009 11:04:03 AM

Obviously the earth has always been the same mass and gravity since it's birth. Kinda like believing in Adam and eve... created the way we are today nothing ever changes or transforms into something more.


Non-sequitor. A believe in Adam and Eve is based on religious faith and has no basis in science. And no one said anythin about the Earth being unchanging. In fact, for a period during it's initial formation, it changed in mass quite a bit. Then, mass acquisition halted or, at least, slowed to significantly less than a trickle. However, those mechanisms are observable and confirmable.


James Maxlow is a geologist and proponent of Expansion Tectonics. He can pretty much answer any question about growing earth with the exception of an explanation to how... just that it is... and he would like more people asking the question of how instead of just laughing like the earth was flat.


And perhaps that's a hint to the problem presented by this "theory." Proponents including yourself offer no conceivable mechanism for how it might happen. As I remember the discussion, you not so artfully dodged a basic question...where did all the water come from.

You know, the hallmark of junk science is usually some proponent declaring how they are taking on the "established" science with their "revolutionary" theory without actually offering more than counterarguments to the actual science. Kind of how the Creationists argue evolution...not with actual evidence of their own, just supposed "weaknesses" with the established theory.

Indeed, established science is established because it has the backing of actual, real evidence.

In addition, there is a certain danger in this kind of denial. For instance, one of the places at risk of earthquake and tsunami is on the west coast due to the Cascadia fault. It is a type of fault that is best understood through conventional tectonic science. Preparations depend on understanding that fault and trying to use the present science to try and come up with the best prediction for it's next upthrust event.

Somehow, I don't think Dr. Maxlow, tilting at windmills, is going to be much help in those preparations.
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 21
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 4/29/2009 11:49:21 AM
Yep. Duped people still believe Columbus was the first to think the earth was round and everyone thought he'd fall off the edge of the earth and he was a renegade to show the earth was round... Complete nonsense, but it was coined by a book in the late 1800's I believe, and everyone bought into this fable -- because it was posited as 'history'. So everyone ate it up. Again, nonsense, they had GLOBES back then lol

It's about things passed along to us by our family/community/etc., as kids... and since everyone else believes it -- it can't be false, right? That's conspiracy-theory talk! Well, no conspiracies required. It's called false information that can be easily believed with confidence by mass people.

It's a taste of how easily things like politics & religion can be passed along as well without thinking about how things really came to be and what things are really all about.

If you have popularity of the belief + you were told that as a kid = truth. At least that's how non-independent thinkers are. :)
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 22
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 4/29/2009 12:14:57 PM
@ Light Storm



RocketMan Len "well, we call a spade a spade, and nonsense is nonsense."

Kinda sounds like something someone might have said about the earth being round... don't you think. It's amazing what can be happening when we truly don't understand how it works.


Not even the same. If the 'theory' were right, and the earth WAS expanding at a rate of 9.8 m/s^2... do you have any IDEA of how big it would be? It would run counter to every observation we've made over the past five thousand years.

You're right - it IS amazing what will happen when we don't understand how things work... some people will believe ANYTHING.
 Damienevil
Joined: 2/22/2008
Msg: 23
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 4/29/2009 2:43:58 PM
sorry but if you dont kn0w science then the shadow on the moon is nothing that does not indicate that the earth does not cast a shadow which it would if it was flat

you do have to remember that the avg person only believes the earth is round because of others telling them it is or due to personal experience like flying
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 24
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History
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 4/29/2009 3:46:20 PM
Here is a list of some of the christian theologians who taught that the earth was flat, based on scripture: Lactantius, Cosmas Indicopleustes, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, Theodore of Mopsuestia, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Jerusalem, Ephraim Syrus, Athanasius of Alexandria, Diodorus of Tarsus, Epiphanius of Salamis, Hilary of Poitiers, and Severian of Gabala.

"The earth is flat and the sun does not pass under it in the night, but travels through the northern parts as if hidden by a wall" ~ Severian, Bishop of Gabala
 Go Rin No Sho
Joined: 1/9/2009
Msg: 25
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History
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 4/29/2009 6:36:06 PM
Can anybody in this thread conclusively prove that the world is not flat?

The world is now available projected on flat panel LCD's.

Ergo, the entire world is flat.

Now, piss off with your reality is this and your theory is that B.S....

The TV is your world.

And your world is flat.

Thus spake Zarathustra.
 jal7
Joined: 7/4/2008
Msg: 26
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 4/30/2009 12:55:47 AM

Ah, c'mon, the earth IS flat. I put a marble in the middle of a Wal-Mart parking lot and didn't roll.


haha that was pretty funny :)
 Confident-Realist
Joined: 2/8/2004
Msg: 27
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 4/30/2009 1:42:48 PM
You do have to remember that the avg person only believes the earth is round because of others telling them it is or due to personal experience like flying

... or if they proved it with help of a friend. They each being directly 50 miles apart and put a stick in the ground on a non-cloudy day and at high noon measure the shadow. If the shadows are different, you know the earth is curved, not flat. AND you can also measure how big it is, too (obviously it won't be very accurate due to a poor-man's lab experiment, and the earth is not a perfect circle).

OR by looking at photos OF the earth from space... and live tv cameras of Nasa hovering over the earth showing it... (and from many other sources, verifying it, eliminating any conspiracy that it's all a sham, despite no motive to say it's not) and actually watching on a large lake or an ocean, a boat in the distance disappearing with it's bottom gone but top still visible at the end...
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 28
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 4/30/2009 3:26:54 PM

Primary way in which the Earth generates oxygen for the atmosphere is through photosynthesis. Photosynthesis accounts for 98% of the world's atmospheric oxygen


Wrong, wrong, WRONG!

You're inferring that photosynthesis somehow CREATES oxygen, when all it does is un-bind oxygen that was bound as carbon dioxide. That's like saying we destroy oxygen as we breathe.

We inhale oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. Plants inhale CO2 and exhale O2. Nothing is created nor destroyed... merely changed.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 29
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 5/1/2009 7:40:19 AM
You're persistent Light, I'll give you that. However, there are so many holes in these "explanations" that it is truly amazing that supposedly intelligent, thinking individuals can actually say it and maintain a straight face. But, again, it really is pointless to argue people's religions.

One thing I've noticed throughout your discussion is the frequent indication that its proponents don't know the mechanism, however insist that the known mechanisms are just "wrong." Somehow, mass is generated from the centre of an increasingly grow, expanding and, by necessity cooling, Earth's core. Basically, they have explanations that don't explain anything.

But at least they have the comfort of knowing that they aren't "indoctrinated" by the established science of what it is they are talking about. Yup, they are so much smarter than the rest of us.


75% of it's mass of 92% of it's volume is made up of Hydrogen


So which is it? Actually, approximately 99% of the sun's entire mass is hydrogen. So, logically, it's volume should be 99% hydrogen. Are you familiar with the difference between these two terms?


The sun creates energy... yes... it's is creating it all the time... It creates it's own fuel to recycle over and over again. If it wasn't, it certainly couldn't keep burning at the rate it does for billions of years.


Says...who? how the hell, in a universe where one of its most fundamental laws is that energy can neither be created or destroyed, just changed in form, can the sun "create" it's own energy and fuel? Do you even understand the basic principles of stellar evolution?


We are just to ignorant to understand it.


Some of us, yes. But that's more a condemnation of science education in North America. However, Hans Bethe, working from Einstein's basic E=mc^2 equation figured out the basic of stellar fusion pretty readily.

Seriously, Light Storm, crack a textbook. I think you might find the known processes of the universe are far more interesting, elegant, and likely than what is proposed here.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 31
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History
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 5/2/2009 2:50:35 AM
RE Msg: 37 by rockondon:
Here is a list of some of the christian theologians who taught that the earth was flat, based on scripture: Lactantius, Cosmas Indicopleustes, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Methodius, Theodore of Mopsuestia, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Jerusalem, Ephraim Syrus, Athanasius of Alexandria, Diodorus of Tarsus, Epiphanius of Salamis, Hilary of Poitiers, and Severian of Gabala.

"The earth is flat and the sun does not pass under it in the night, but travels through the northern parts as if hidden by a wall" ~ Severian, Bishop of Gabala

According to Stephen Jay Gould, "there never was a period of “flat earth darkness” among scholars (regardless of how the public at large may have conceptualized our planet both then and now). Greek knowledge of sphericity never faded, and all major medieval scholars accepted the earth’s roundness as an established fact of cosmology." David Lindberg and Ronald Numbers also write: "there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not acknowledge [Earth's] sphericity and even know its approximate circumference."

In 1945 the Historical Association listed "Columbus and the Flat Earth Conception" second of twenty in its first-published pamphlet on common errors in history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_mythology

As LightStorm has pointed out, there is a minority of scientists who claim that the Earth is growing. Does that mean that science is deliberately trying to suppress itself?

It seems to me, that given the above, only a tiny minority of modern scientists and Medieval Christian scholars thought unreasonably, and we should therefore judge both as being just as capable of ignorance, stupidity and intolerance. But that would not support the agenda of people who want to impose their views on the world, and force everyone to do what they want. I don't call that freedom, do you?
 Tah,
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 32
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 11/21/2011 2:09:17 AM
People shouldn't throw stones in glass houses....

Flat earthers of yesteryear areno differentto the one's believing in global cooling or that carbon is not a greenhouse gas...
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 33
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History
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 11/21/2011 5:04:57 AM
Heres a link to somebody who has researched the topic and written a book about it

I do however think that one quite important thing is perhaps being left out of the debate which is social position

The kind of time periods being discussed didnt have socialised education, and the "poor" were extremely supersticious, had little to know knowledge of science nor philosophy and believed in all manner of nonsensical things like berserkers, demons, gods, witches, possession etc etc

So although the beliefs of "scholars" are cited to define what an entire civilisation might believe its also focusing on what was a VERY tiny percentage of the whole in societies where the majority (the poor) barely had any education

So its quite possible that as much as 95% of a population (excluding scholars and perhaps sailors) could have believed the earth was flat, and that sailors that hadnt returned were either eaten by monsters of the deep, were killed by angry gods or had fallen off the edge of the world

But as most them wouldnt be able to read or write what they thought to be true isnt going to be available for reference or citation so any research into this and all conclusions based on that research will be based on a very tiny proporton of that society and one that is known to be extremely unneducated and very supersticious too which doesnt seem to be factored in at all

Even nowadays we see many areas where academics or politicians know or believe one side of something and the majority of people dont even know of the existence of that "think" to begin with let alone have a view one way or the other.

Simple examples would be fractional banking, or that surprising amounts of americans thing the Federal reserve bank is part of the government rather than a privately owned bank although recent media coverage is now making that more widely known

So even today with our education system many things just arent relevant to the "masses" and as such they have no exposure to them at all or have an idea that doesnt reflect the actual reality

So its more rather than less likely than in times with no education, no internet, no TV, no news media that what the scholars thought and what the majority of the population thought were completely different
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 34
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History
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 11/21/2011 6:30:40 PM
I find your reasoning in this to be off in a number of ways.

First of all, your side examples of the Federal Reserve Bank and Fractional Banking aren't even remotely similar to the idea of a flat earth, even in the conceptual sense that you seek to use them for here. Those things are complicated and subtle to fully understand, while the idea of the shape of the earth is not.

As for your more significant point, that we don't know what the commoners believed, that has the ring of greater validity, but it actually doesn't matter for the focus of this thread question. This is because it doesn't MATTER what they thought, since their beliefs in that respect would have had no effect on the course of civilisation (British spelling).

It DOES matter, what was believed by merchant seafarers, and by those who pursued imperial and/or national expansion.

On your side of things, it IS true that we have far less certain information about "common" people than we do about the power brokers of the past. There is a lot of History that could do with a radical rewrite at some point, owing to this dearth of knowledge, but when it comes to the shape of the earth, what the farmers may or may not have thought about it had no pertinence to the course of human existence, while what the rulers thought DID.
 rearguard*2
Joined: 2/8/2008
Msg: 35
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History
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 11/22/2011 8:18:57 AM
Wild speculations about what people believed in the past don't justify any particular position. Rather than believing that people held views based on superstition and supernatural phenomena, my own suspicion is that the vast majority of people had no particular belief in anything but what they could observe and deduce for themselves. Formal education teaches technology, not beliefs. Unless a power structure imposes some kind of crazy idea, such as a religious or government organization, people assume that things that happen do so because of the mechanisms that they are familiar with through every day experience.

As to the flatness of the earth, normal, uneducated people would as a routine experience observe the horizon. Ancients build observatories and must have realized that a flat model for the Earth was not useful in explaining the changes seen in the stars. People traveled the world and nobody gave serious credence to the prospect of falling off the edge. None of that relied on eduction or its lack thereof.

Our world is full of science fiction, yet few who are sane believe in little green men, alien kidnappings or any of the other attributes of the various frameworks made up therein. Fairy tales are told to 3 year olds, but in my experience, none of them really expect to encounter any of the phenomena described. Very young kids rapidly understand what is to be expected by reality, as do every other animal on the planet, and only become alarmed when things don't manifest themselves as they expect. Education is a red herring. It merely introduces politically approved ideas into our heads, and while we may be required to give lip service to them, that can not be taken as a sign we actually believe any of them.
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 36
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History
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 11/22/2011 8:23:01 AM
But it IS pertinent to the topic

The topic specifically uses the phrase "common knowledge" so a tiny percentage of literate scholars doesnt as far as I'm concerned equate to "common knowledge" at all, thats quite specialised finite and elitist knowledge

Whereas "common knowledge" in the majorative sense would have been what non sea faring, not philosophising, non literate, non scholars would have believed

And although scholarly texts might not make much mention of a flat earth other than some religous texts the knowledge of the belief that the world was flat could simply have endured due to being passed on socially from generation to generation as humour or mockery of "uneducated" former generations rather than from the writings or preachings of the scholarly elite who until VERY recent times wouldnt have been sharing their thoughts on very much at all with the ordinary uneducated majority

My example of fractional banking was simply to highlight how even today we have things that arent common knowledge despite being all around us and even being relevant to our everyday lives partly due to a lack of necessity real or assumed to understand it on the side of the people, but also due to either a belief ordinary people dont need to know it, or that they "shouldnt" know it on the side of the academics and those in the know

I'm not sure I really buy the analogy that seeing a ships sails before the rest of the ship would make it "obvious" the earth was spherical though tbh

Unless the ship was the size of a mountain a far more obvious first thought there would be that the waves obstructed the lower part of it as the sea isnt flat and devoid of ripples
 rearguard*2
Joined: 2/8/2008
Msg: 37
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History
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 11/22/2011 8:41:18 AM
^^^And the common case of what are known to be high mountains surrounding flat basins? What then? The common man would likely have no opinion on the subject of the shape of the Earth, but if forced to think about it he/she would not come up with an explanation like "Well, its flat, but there are really tall hills blocking the view of the mountain. Although, having traveled many times across the plains to the mountain, I never really noticed any hills between here and there!"

No, the only response would be: "Its not flat, otherwise we would see the mountain. As to what the shape is, I really can't say more!"

Of course, you could argue that the common man was too stupid to even think about the question in an orderly fashion, but then your entire train of argument is moot.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 38
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 11/22/2011 8:49:20 AM
"Yep. Duped people still believe Columbus was the first to think the earth was round and everyone thought he'd fall off the edge of the earth and he was a renegade to show the earth was round... Complete nonsense, but it was coined by a book in the late 1800's I believe, and everyone bought into this fable -- because it was posited as 'history'. So everyone ate it up. Again, nonsense, they had GLOBES back then lol"

Columbus believed that the Earth was smaller than the wise men of the day did. That's why he thought he'd landed in India when it was actually America.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 39
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History
Who believed the Earth is Flat???
Posted: 11/22/2011 9:58:47 AM
Ibly is quite correct.

I would add, again referring back to Mike's concerns about "common" beliefs, that just as we don't know what the greatest number of peasants believed in the past, we also do not know what they did NOT believe. That is, the fact that we DON'T know whether the farmers knew the world was round, doesn't mean they thought it was flat.

One important element to ponder about this whole subject area, is that if a fact (such as the shape of the world) functionally MATTERED to a majority of people, what was true would become generally known fairly quickly. That which does NOT matter, would tend to be ignored in the general knowledge base.

As to things like fractional banking and such, common ignorance about their details again is only significant, if the detailed knowledge makes a solid difference in peoples daily lives. Most of us, when we first heard about these manipulative money games, were not stunned and amazed, as we might be if we suddenly learned the world was a different shape. So again, comparing details like that to the shape of a planet is a bit of a stretch.
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