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 bigshrek
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 51
Somali PiratesPage 3 of 12    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)
The simple fact is, by using deadly force, Obama has just made it to where we will be FORCED to use Military options in the near future on Somalia.

The Somali's will get more deadly, there will be a "Hue & Cry" over dead US citizens, and we'll likely have to send Stealth bombers to every port in Somalia to drop MOABS.

You can't fight pirates in a piecemeal fashion...there are too many, look people, this is ALL THEY DO in some cities. A FEW fishermen at most just to keep up appearances, the rest are pirates. It's like dealing with a rat's nest...you either exterminate them ALL or they reproduce like crazy, and you have to keep dealing with them over & over & over.

Fourth World countries don't think like Americans. They're not going to play nice just because of economic sanctions, they're already totally destroyed. Travelling in Somalia is just like travelling through Max Max territory...you pay, or you fight, or you die.

For them it's just the facts of life in Somalia...for us it means another WAR to protect American Shipping...90% of which that flows through the area is OIL...gee, another OIL WAR...go figure :) But I bet the liberals wont complain about this Oil War!!
 RenaissanceMan1950
Joined: 2/20/2009
Msg: 52
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/15/2009 2:08:14 PM

Obama has just made it to where we will be FORCED to use Military options in the near future on Somalia.
If so, it's the first thing he's gotten right. I hope you're correct as to the military option, and it would be even better if we do it with an "unusual coalition" of international forces. Stopping piracy, once and for all, is in every developed country's national interest.
 bigshrek
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 53
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/15/2009 9:17:16 PM
It is better to be Feared, than Loved. Machiavelli got it PERFECT, at least as far as schoolchildren and dealing with other countries.

Schoolchildren need to be kept in Fear and in Respect of their teachers & Deans. We have seen over the last 30 years that non-corporeal punishment is totally ineffective in keeping schools violence-free. Schools have actually gone so far downhill that it's shocking. The students have no respect for anyone nor anything, including themselves. At least we feared the paddle...and it kept us in line. Or at least made us slick enough that we didn't get caught ;) Either way, it worked.

Other Countries need to be kept in Fear that we would start paying attention to THEM. To have the EYE of the USA focused on a country should scare them to death...because shortly after we figure out if they are a threat or not...is what we do next. Why do you think Teddy Roosevelt was so succesfull?? He sent people like General "Black Jack" Pershing to the Middle East to quell the fighting...and what Pershing did...while Not Nice At All...absolutely STOPPED the fighting for over 60 years and pretty much got the entire area to treat Americans with Kid Gloves out of FEAR that we'ed send another Just Like Pershing.

Of course, that meant they started trying to serve us things like Sheep's Eyeball as a delicacy...which is more of a game of "Let's see what the stupid foreigner will Swallow!"

Ronald Reagan, had the entire world fooled that he'd reach for a glass of water and "Push the button accidently"...and nobody seriously messed with us. His foreign policy was as simple as Roosevelt's...Keep the Other Guy SCARED of YOU!

Clinton, on the other hand, made us laughing stocks in the World Community by lying about his affairs instead of saying "So What? I'm a MAN and am Entitled to as Many Women as I can handle!!"
Then he compounded his foolishness by an underpowered foray into Mogadishu...Dude, if you want to fight a war, SEND ENOUGH TROOPS to TOTALLY OVERWHELM AND OBLITERATE THE FOE!! And then when Saddam was showing his butt, all he did was lob a few Cruise Missiles at him to spank his wrist for being naughty...again, totally ineffective. Not to mention totally chickening out on an opportunity to kill Osama Bin Laden when it would have cost him nothing.

And B.O. made Clinton's WIFE...Secretary of State...ok, he hired a woman who couldn't even figure out that her husband was messing around on her...Or wasn't Bold enough to say to the public "We have an Open Marriage because Bill can't keep his schmeckle in his pants!" This does not engender faith in her abilities to govern...not even her own house.

Letters of Mark?? GREAT IDEA!!

Then again, Spike TV is going to be hosting a new show next season about Pirate Hunters...so I can only assume that someone has already given an OK to hunt them in international waters...oh Wait...didn't the UN pass a Resolution last year against Piracy?!?!?! Why, Yes they DID!! And in that Resolution they made it possible for ANYONE to hunt Pirates for Fun & Profit!!! Well, well, about time they wrote the right kinda law :D

 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 54
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Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/15/2009 11:35:32 PM

Other countries do not need to be kept in fear of us. Many of them are in fear of us and that fear leads to resentment and leads to things like terrorist activities.


So why did the terrorist activity start back up when Obama aka "the world's best buddy" ACORNED his way into office?


How do you think the terrorist leaders are able to drum up so many young people to work for them?


Possibly because it's some quick and easy cash? In parts of the world where quick and easy cash isn't real quick and easy to get ahold of?


Because these people resent America, they see us as bullies.


Oh, okay, that's it isn't it? It must be because they see Obama as a big bully. It's gotta be that because they weren't attacking when Bush was in office.


What we need to do is gain the RESPECT of other nations, not from fear but because we work with them and treat them with respect and behave with honor. We are considered as bullies by half the world.


So let's just hang with the other half. They sound like pretty cool people. Why worry about those who don't like you?


I was living outside the US and traveling around the world when Reagan was president: I NEVER met anyone who liked him--he was almost universally loathed outside of the US. That is not the type of leadership we should have.


We are hated because we have a country that offers what they can never have. Freedom. Reagan and Bush were hated because it was well known they would defend those freedoms to the death. Obama runs around apologizing for our way of life, like there is something wrong with it. Of course he is loved by the whole world, they know if their government (which they have no control over) goes apes**t, under Obama, nothing will happen. Same as with Clinton. No wonder they were loved, they knew those two could be attacked and nothing would happen. It was proven over and over. And it's starting to happen again.



Oh and by the way, Dayton, Ohio Class of 1985. We did something wrong, our Reagan loving principal Ed Norris gave you two choices, one or two hours in detention, or a whack on the a** with a paddle the size of a small pizza box. I picked the paddle once. My rear end hurt for a week. I never went back to his office for anything--it straightened me up in a hurry. See it was a fear of something that straightened me up--if he'd of sat me down to have a talk, I'd have been back in a week )or less). Like the ones who chose detention were. Fear is sometimes a good thing. Maybe if teachers gave more whacks on the a** the schools wouldn't be in such utter turmoil.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 55
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Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/16/2009 3:10:53 AM
^^^^ Yes--I lie awake nights, wracked with guilt for all humankind. I think about the tragedy that FDR failed to understand Japanese fascists. He MADE them bomb Pearl Harbor by hurting their feelings! It wasn't their fault. Do people really know how much pain a cry of "Ow" can signify, coming from those whose feelings were bruised? Do the bruisers even care? And as if that weren't enough, FDR and his bullies hurt poor Adolf Hitler's feelings, too. Surely there was no need to be so stubborn and "macho!" Couldn't we, if we'd only had the courage to try, have tried harder to see Mr. Hitler's side of things! I ask all you warmongers!
 wisguyingb
Joined: 1/5/2008
Msg: 56
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/16/2009 6:04:54 AM
In regards to message #161

You say---"Right wingers want capitalism yet don't care about relations with other countries?"

Lets take a look at some "caring" left wing nations that have created a "Paradise" for the common person

The Soviet Union--(They fell apart due to huge Government spending on the military and social programs)

China--(They actually want capitalism, but they don't care about relations with other nations or human rights)

Venezuela--(They are dependent on the oil money from the capitalist nations)

Cuba--(Cuba is dirt poor, but they do make good cigars, boxers and baseball players)

North Korea--(They are dependent on food aid from capitalist nations and use their Nuclear program as their wildcard)

Some right wing governments are bad as are some left wing governments. When government gets too big, they tend to go bad. Regardless of right or left. For every one example of a bad right wing government there is an example of a bad left wing government.

I myself prefe small government.

I love the Quote--"Commerce with all nations, ally with none"

So true, so true....

But I do agree with you that our support for Isreal is not a good thing. As is meddling with the affairs of other nations.

Bin Ladens only real gripe is that Foreign soliders are occupying the muslim holy lands.

Heck I think we Americans would fight hard as He$$ if there was another nation's troops occupying our lands.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 57
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Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/16/2009 9:02:42 AM
^^^^^

Sounds more like a Clinton quote than a conservative quote!!
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 58
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Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/16/2009 11:46:45 AM

You actually did see Hitlers side of things quite well


Nothing in my earlier post is evidence for that statement--and YOU know it. It's a personal insult, plain and simple. People usually turn to cheap tricks like that when they don't have the knowledge or skill to make their case in a reasonable way.

Who are you claiming financed the Bund, and how is that relevant to anything here?



WW2 doesnt really count and you know it.


Why not? If having other countries approve of us should be our main foreign policy goal, as you seem to suggest, why shouldn't that principle also have applied then? After all, the U.S. declared war on Germany without having been attacked. You're tailoring your transnationalist notions to fit only situations you think favor your assertion, and ignoring situations that disprove it.

You never have explained exactly WHY the U.S. should allow the approval of other nations to determine, or even influence, its foreign policies. Are we supposed to believe transnationalism is grand and wondrous just because you say so?
 raxarsr
Joined: 7/10/2008
Msg: 59
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Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/16/2009 12:46:50 PM
actually.........clintons handling of the military when we were in somolia made the us a laughing stock there.............they as a people have zero respect for the us.......nor any fear..hence the somoli pirate who says the will now target and kill americans

i rather like the idea of a marine squad on american vessles........but i also understand why that cant and wont happen........however......for much less than the cost of a ranso.........[and you can bet you house that shipping insurance is gonna go up........and seeing how lots of the countrys in that part of the world are getting that stuff for free......guess who's gonna pay for it?]...........it would be very possible to mount a couple of 20mm bofurs guns and a couple of .50 cal ma duces on each ship and train the crews to use thendestroy a bunch of their small "attack" boats and the pirates will be outta business.............not to mention.....if a "mothership" gets positevly identified as such........well.........subs need target practice too.

dont start talking about "kiling innocents".......espically not at sea..........i dont care how poor you are........you pick up a gun and try to steal.....you just set the rules of the game...............dont **** if the other guy is a better player than you are.....we ive your country lots of food for free...........you wanna fight............then fight the guy who steals that free food and makes you pay for it.......dont bite the hand that feeds you
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 60
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Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/16/2009 4:03:31 PM
frankster p,
I see you didn't answer my questions. I didn't think you could. Here's another one. If having other countries approve of our policies is so important, what was it about being at war with Japan and Germany that made it less important then? Nations act in their own interests--or always have, unless led by utter fools. Whether their leaders or peoples personally like each other is as irrelevant today as it always has been.

Churchill personally detested Stalin, and the feeling was almost certainly mutual. But their countries cooperated because cooperation was in the best interests of both. Even Stalin and Hitler signed a non-aggression pact, because each one calculated (wrongly, in Stalin's case) it served his interests. And the two men and their nations loathed each other.


<div class="quote">Are we to believe then that typical right wing chest beating and America throwing its weight around is grand and wondrous because right wingers say so?

That's about the kind of disingenuous response I'd expect. Here's how your two-step trick works. First, you offer what's no more than your uninformed opinion of what some group of people approves of doing--but state it as if it were fact. And then you ask, facetiously, if this group's approval of these actions--a "fact" you made up--makes the actions praiseworthy.

Once you see the false logic this sleight of hand relies on, you can use to smear any group you disagree with, with having to do all that work to learn the facts, or to bother with all that thinking! All you have to do is this : "Are we to believe then that typical left wing eugenics schemes for getting rid of everyone they think is unfit for their planned utopia are grand and wondrous because left wingers say so? See how easy?


<div class="quote">You want good trade and relations with other countries or not?

What sort of laughable question is that? Everyone benefits from free trade. Personal opinions about another country have absolutely nothing to do with it. If trade is mutually profitable, it will take place.

As for whether the majority of people in any of the 180-odd nations on Earth, or all of them, approves of the foreign policies of the United States, or not, I don't give two hoots in he!!. Nor should any other American. Our constitution makes our president responsible for the interests of the United States--and ONLY the United States--even if the current president seems not to understand that. If that troublesome detail distresses you and those who think like you--cosmopolitans that you seem to be--maybe you can get the U.S. Constitution amended to remove it. Until such time, tough luck.
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 61
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Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/17/2009 7:28:02 AM

I read 175 posts and forgot what you people were talking about when I finished.
Usually within 50 posts or so the comments disintegrate into a rehash of the November '08 election issues, with the same name-calling, personal attacks, and general all-round hypocrisy.
 oddandy
Joined: 3/5/2008
Msg: 62
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/17/2009 8:23:54 AM

Usually within 50 posts or so the comments disintegrate into a rehash of the November '08 election issues, with the same name-calling, personal attacks, and general all-round hypocrisy.


True, LOL.
 bigshrek
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 63
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/17/2009 10:22:53 AM
I'm appluading Obama for giving control over to the Bainbridge's Captain. Smartest thing he could have done. He's not former military, so his grasp of strategy in that realm is likely given to him from the Joint Chiefs.

The only question is, how exactly is he going to follow it up??

Tactically, should we wait for more ships to be attacked, or start levelling Somali towns & ports to resolve the problem before it gets out of hand?

Military thinkers say Level Everything, so that there are no problems. The Roman ways are the best ways. If it attacks our country, Kill the offender down to a controllable population.

Civilian thinkers say to Talk about everything and wait until there is a HUGE problem before Doing anything. Then once the problem is huge, talk about it some more before acting. That's the kinda thinking that allows 40 US citizens to be kidnapped & held in Neuva Laredo by the Zetas gang. Another 300+ kidnapped in Pheonix, AZ by the same type of drug gangs...gee, I wonder why CNN hasn't been reporting on THAT???
 oddandy
Joined: 3/5/2008
Msg: 64
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/17/2009 10:43:59 AM

Tactically, should we wait for more ships to be attacked, or start levelling Somali towns & ports to resolve the problem before it gets out of hand?


Yeah, levelling entire towns works out really well and discourages previously uninterested people from taking up arms in an insurgency. I mean, look at the success story we have in Iraq, amirite?

They're not all pirates, ya know.
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 65
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Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/17/2009 2:37:52 PM
I don't think wholesale leveling of ports and towns is the answer.

Somalia is going to take boots-on-the-ground military intervention to disarm the militias and bring order to chaos. That will have to be followed by years of military occupation.

Ideally, this would be done initially by a coalition of interested and/or affected nations, preferably NOT led by the UN.

In the interim, a naval blockade of the coast should be enforced with ships, submarines, aircraft, and satellite surveillance.
 ManFromMesa
Joined: 4/14/2009
Msg: 66
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/17/2009 5:34:56 PM
It should be mandatory that all vessels have a security crew at the ship owners expense,just like they have military contractors in Iraq that escort local trucks hauling building materials.

If a crew never ever handled a weapon ,only the guards then that might protect the crew if attempts fail. The security team of say 3 men should be able to fire upon a pirate boat after the first shot at them or even if there rifles are aimed at them,a 24 hour a day team would work,3 -8 hour shifts and every security guard comes running at first need.

Heck we have guards in banks so why not a shipping vessel. The guards should be able to do what ever it takes,after we repel or sink so many pirate boats then they would start to slow.We have not the time to wait to get to the core of the problem,no functioning government/police or military there,so security teams for now.

The trained security team would not cost to much to implement,and just look at these pirates,7-8 men in a open fishing vessel,how easy is that.A 7mm hunting rifle with a scope would do quite nicely,one doesn't need a mortar launcher with these poorly equipped uneducated thugs.
 ManFromMesa
Joined: 4/14/2009
Msg: 67
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/18/2009 7:55:26 AM

Sure. Air Marshals flying on airplanes... real security checking passengers. Not even after 9-11. How many Air Marshals are there?

Someone has to pay for it. The shipping companies won't......... cheaper to pay a few gangsters.


They should be forced to pay or not allowed to play,why should our Navy have to pay for it.A ship hauling hundreds of millions of cargo merits 3 heavily armed security contractors at $90,000 a year each.Where as a passenger plane with with 120 passengers just paying for the gas to fly the plane isn't economically viable.Besides with 30,000 flights a day how many were and how many now are getting hijacked,it was always rare,but the ships off Africa worth hundreds of times more are jacked each day,there is a difference,and if a ship can pay a million in ransom it can pay for security.
 bigshrek
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 68
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/19/2009 2:14:17 AM
Yeah, levelling entire towns works out really well and discourages previously uninterested people from taking up arms in an insurgency. I mean, look at the success story we have in Iraq, amirite?

They're not all pirates, ya know.


That was the problem in Iraq, we DIDN'T level whole towns. We used "Smart" munitions and took out specific buildings. If we had done it in the WW2 way, there would be big craters where cities USED to be. We were being NICE...idiot Bush's idea...."Win the Hearts & Minds"...what utter bull offal. If we had have used the General "Black Jack" Pershing Guidebook, there wouldn't have been enough people left in Iraq OR Iran with a will to fight to HAVE a decent game of baseball in the entire area.

You can't win Hearts & Minds, you can only instill the Fear of Death & Punishment.

Take a VERY close look at, or travel to Somalia, if they're not pirates, they're the infrastructure FOR the pirates...much like Tortuga in the 1600's. And if they're not on the coast, they're raiding & pillaging everything and everyone that travels THROUGH Somalia. Aid convoys EXPECT to pay off local warlords to deliver food...which for the most part STILL doesn't get to most of the people who need it...IF they don't just kill your entire convoy & take what they want. There is no government that means anything to anyone there...each Warlord takes care of his own territory and charges whatever they feel as a toll to travel. It is a wide open country and muscle means power. Nothing else registers. Might equals Right, Life is Cheap, and that's Somali's know.

They also know that the last Democrat President didn't send enough troops/firepower to even make 'em nervous...so the pirates are expecting much as Clinton did...words, cruise missiles, but no real deeds.

US ships are going to be attacked again, and the Somali's will kill a few to make a point...what will Obama do then??
 brawnydog
Joined: 5/12/2006
Msg: 69
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/19/2009 10:56:28 AM
One of the major problems is that NATO doesn't have enough authority to
do what needs done. A perfect example is the Canadian Navy having to release those captured pirates yesterday. All they could do was confiscate their weapons.
When a ship is part of NATO and it captures someone, the law reverts back to the country to whom the capturing naval ship belongs. Since the pirates hadn't attacked a Canadian flagged ship or committed the crime in Canadian waters, there was nothing they could legally do.
That's basically just taking away their toys and sending them back to try again.
NATO needs the authority to detain these criminals and to scuttle their boats.
That would put an end to 75% of the problem immediately.
 ManFromMesa
Joined: 4/14/2009
Msg: 70
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/19/2009 11:10:11 AM
NATO is a joke,in Africa ,Rwanda they would be a hundred yards away as they set back and watched citizens hacked to death by the dozens with machete and had no power to do anything but observe,they can only defend if they are attacked.What a joke,why don't we just send anyone over with whistles,its an expensive joke,always has been,what good is a force that has no power,lets man our banks with guards that carry no weapons,lot of good that would do,I mean who thought up this joke branch of peace keepers.
 oddandy
Joined: 3/5/2008
Msg: 71
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/19/2009 11:20:29 AM

Right wing violence is not a new phenomena


Neither is left-wing violence, as evidenced by about 100 years of European history as well as the beginning of the 20th century here in America. Shall we compare notes?

It's not always all about the evil right-wing boogeymen. Your attempt at partisanship in this example just looks foolish, as any educated person knows that both sides are about equal in their histories of violence.
 maxxoccupancy
Joined: 2/5/2007
Msg: 72
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Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/19/2009 11:26:51 AM
I work as a merchant mariner and was posting pirate watches on those very ships. There were US Navy ships in the area, but Washington, DC, refused to provide naval escorts. I can't give you details of maritime security aboard those vessels, but it is clearly inadequate for the threats that are out there. Crew members need to have some kind of immediate access to firearms. You're allowed to carry a Crocodile Dundee bowie knife but not have a shotgun in a gun safe.

The ridiculous argument that crew members might shoot each other is foolish because some crew members are armed already, albeit contrary to company policy. It is easier to simply push a crew member over the side and into the water than it is to go steal one of the ship's shotguns and find the guy.

Everything that the US Government does in the transportation industry creates unneeded danger. Merchant mariners know how to respond to the threats out there, but the companies and the government interfere and cause unnecessary problems.
 oddandy
Joined: 3/5/2008
Msg: 73
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/19/2009 11:30:35 AM
^^^As I've always said, everything the government touches turns to sheeyat.
 english lass
Joined: 11/14/2007
Msg: 74
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/19/2009 1:29:25 PM
ok, so the various ports the ships would eventually dock at don't wish for them to have guns...

how about torpedoes?

some type of portable torpedo might work to shoot the pirates boats with...if they even make such a wee beastie
 brawnydog
Joined: 5/12/2006
Msg: 75
Somali Pirates
Posted: 4/19/2009 1:35:21 PM
sheesus... this must be why they call it "off topic"
can't we all just hate the pirates?
something has to be done about it
my suggestions won't be politically correct

edit: oops, missed the lass
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