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 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 2
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Sustainable living in modern societyPage 2 of 2    (1, 2)

do you believe our modern society is capable of going to a more sustainable mode of living.
Capable? Absolutely. Will we? Debateable.
Resources are finite.
Some resources are finite. Many are "renewable" or "recyclable."
Many of the things we do to produce those day to day things we take for granted are demonstrably bad for the environment. Are we smart enough, or at a point where we can develop a more sustainable mode of living?
Some people are. Most are willing to adapt to whatever market conditions prevail, and a small-minded minority will resist any and all attempts to ameliorate the situation.
Are people even aware of what sustainable living even entails or are they prepared to make the sacrifices?
Some are, some aren't, most don't care, some will deliberately sabotage any efforts at sustainable economy.


Is our current "green" emphasis more than just a fad?
Good question. We'll know the answers soon enough.
 father3
Joined: 7/11/2006
Msg: 3
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Posted: 4/22/2009 11:47:57 AM

the question I have is, do you believe our modern society is capable of going to a more sustainable mode of living.


For a modern society as we know it the answer is, no. The present world population is somewhere around 6.77 billion people. We cannot continue the way we are in any sustainable manner. If the population were to be culled to less than 300 million, then I'd think the answer is, yes. Since over half the world's population is under the age of 25, the only serious way to cull the population would be to impose strict reproductive limits on everyone. In a mere two to three generations we can get the population down below 300 million.

Would this be a society we recognize? No. Could you then drink water straight from the Potomac or the Yangzee River? Most likely in a couple hundred years or so.



Resources are finite.


In the sense that the universe is finite, then yes, resources are finite. But in a real time sense, resources are nowhere near being finite as long as the sun shines and trees still grow. What I think you mean is oil resources as our main means of procurring energy, is finite. We already have the technology to turn grass into methanol. It's just not feasible to supply and sustain 7 billion people's energy needs this way.

We only use fossil fuels now because they are abundant and almost free. In some distant future man will have to get his energy from the sun using available technologies of the time rather than waiting the millions of years it takes to make fossil fuels.


a small-minded minority will resist any and all attempts to ameliorate the situation.


"Bush's Inner Circle"
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
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Posted: 4/22/2009 2:33:16 PM
It's apparent to some that we have a very narrow window of opportunity right now to put some "green" technologies in place to lessen the impact of a global tightening of the petroleum supply. For example, GM and Chrysler could be encouraged to convert some closed and/or soon-to-be-closed SUV plants to manufacturing wind turbines, wave and/or tide-powered and/or solar-electric generators, making the tooling changes with government-backed financing or direct loans. Given the auto industy's expertise at making very large numbers of product for the lowest practical cost, this could give us an edge in dealing with the trade deficit.
 Twill348
Joined: 12/20/2008
Msg: 6
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Posted: 4/22/2009 2:48:09 PM
"I think that in the last 25 years we've ridden a wave of growth and prosperity the likes of which have not been seen since the black death swept Europe, sparking the renaissance."

What? News to me, can you explain that a bit more? How did a bunch of people dying cause the renaissance?

Thee are millions, hundreds of millions, of people who are alive today, only because of the "unsustainable" economy we have, which has been slowly dying now for, oh, 10,00 years or so. You people keep worrying about the sky falling, I'm gonna grab a big, juicy steak, after I drive 50 miles to get it, one way, in my gas guzzling car, laughing all the way, with the AC on, even though it's cold out, and I left all the lights on in my house, and all three TV's are on too, and the hot water is on too.
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 7
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Posted: 4/22/2009 5:49:33 PM

"...nobody would argue clean isn't good."
Some would, some do, here's a perfect example:
You people keep worrying about the sky falling, I'm gonna grab a big, juicy steak, after I drive 50 miles to get it, one way, in my gas guzzling car, laughing all the way, with the AC on, even though it's cold out, and I left all the lights on in my house, and all three TV's are on too, and the hot water is on too.
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 9
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Posted: 4/22/2009 7:52:48 PM

Its not until there are real live consequences staring everyone in the face that real change is going to happen.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs2-00/
If Earth's climate continues to warm, then the volume of present-day ice sheets will decrease. Melting of the current Greenland ice sheet would result in a sea-level rise of about 6.5 meters; melting of the West Antarctic ice sheet would result in a sea-level rise of about 8 meters. The West Antarctic ice sheet is especially vulnerable, because much of it is grounded below sea level. Small changes in global sea level or a rise in ocean temperatures could cause a breakup of the two buttressing ice shelves (Ronne/Filchner and Ross). The resulting surge of the West Antarctic ice sheet would lead to a rapid rise in global sea level.

Reduction of the West Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets similar to past reductions would cause sea level to rise 10 or more meters. A sea-level rise of 10 meters would flood about 25 percent of the U.S. population, with the major impact being mostly on the people and infrastructures in the Gulf and East Coast States.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2005/3055/
Coastal change has been most pronounced on the Antarctic Peninsula in the last few decades, where the Wordie Ice Shelf has practically disappeared, the northern part of the Larsen Ice Shelf has disintegrated, and other ice shelves are also changing. Cooperation with other Antarctic mapping groups now includes scientists from Italy, Russia, Norway, Canada. Australia, Argentina, and Germany.
The question is, do we recognize the consequences that are even now staring us in the face? From some of the responses in this very thread, I have to say no. There are some who will very likely remain unconvinced even as their inland homes are flooded with sea water.
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 10
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Posted: 4/23/2009 10:58:10 PM

The potential to reduce emmissions and usage of resources is beyond imagination
There are huge inefficiencies in our present economic model. Right now, it makes more sense, financially, to burn oil transporting materials by container ship (admittedly, the most fuel-efficient transportation on the planet) than to pay higher wages in a "developed" industrial country. That's because we aren't paying the replacement cost of the fuel we burn. If we were, the oil companies would have been buying wind and solar electric generators like crazy, and that cost would have been reflected in the price of petroleum for the past 100 years. As it is, those who "own" the real estate the oil is under pay nothing back to the Earth to replace what they sell.

"Economies of scale" dictate that it's cheaper per unit to manufacture lots of product ina giant factory than to produce the same product locally in smaller facilities.

One model I've suggested (in a letter to then-Chrysler CEO Lee Iacocca) for building "green" automobiles is to set up small, highly automated assembly facilities near population centers (where the customers live). Each facility would have the capacity to make 100 or so vehicles a month; complex components such as engines and transmissions, or motors and batteries, could be outsourced, but the basic body and interior components and assembly labor could be sourced locally.

Automation and CAD/CAM CNC "boutique" assembly methods could efficiently make products, locally, to order: for example, a customer could order a one-of-a-kind PHEV styled to look like (for example) a 1963 Buick Riviera: custom blow-molded or vacuum-molded plastic or composite body on standardized chassis "platform," 1/2 the weight of the original and far more efficient.
 Twill348
Joined: 12/20/2008
Msg: 11
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Posted: 4/24/2009 5:04:57 PM
"Our planet is not going to sustain our current population growth"

Last I read, world population is in decline, and will be for several generations, I beleive.
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
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Posted: 4/24/2009 5:50:00 PM
Actually, man has NEVER had a sustainable population. That is why we created technology. Man is a pretty defenseless animal devoid of the natural tools most animals developed. That is also why we are dominant. We can't compete with a super predator nor out-breed rabbits. We have to adapt or die. Species that evolve to fit a very specific niche tend to die off when the climate or environment changes such as some new predator moves in.
We will adapt and we will make mistakes. We will adapt again. Some of that adaptation could include conservation. On the other hand, some adaptation could be turning against the technology that keeps us alive. That too will pass just as the "dark ages" ended. Our future is not something to be decided in the current political climate but a very long journey. I don't plan on going backward by handing over technical decisions to the incompetent.
 Twill348
Joined: 12/20/2008
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Posted: 4/25/2009 6:30:26 AM
"Where did you read that ? It's completely wrong."




"According to a report from the United Nations Population Fund, based on 1998 analyses (see The State of World Population 1999), projections for the future global population are being revised downward. The projection for 2050 now is 8.9 billion (medium variant), substantially lower than the 1996 projection of 9.4 billion.

The major reason for the lower projection is good news: global fertility rates have declined more rapidly than expected, as health care, including reproductive health, has improved faster than anticipated, and men and women have chosen to have smaller families. About one-third of the reduction in long-range population projections, however, is due to increasing mortality rates in sub-Saharan Africa and parts of the Indian subcontinent. The most important factor is HIV/AIDS, which is spreading much faster than previously anticipated. "

http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globalchange2/current/lectures/human_pop/human_pop.html

So what we see, is no growth in the developed countries, and some growth in the others. but, as living standards increase, growth rates go down. The solution to population growth is to increase living standards worldwide.
 Twill348
Joined: 12/20/2008
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Posted: 4/25/2009 6:47:12 AM
"it's true that the Black Death 'shook the tree' in Europe and forced progress."

As I understand it, no.

Two things did cause it, though. (The renaissance).

The Italian city states were ruled by the Papacy. However, over time, the corruption of the Papacy, leading to the Pope being merely a pawn of the richest city state, led to a de-legitimization of the Popes authority. (it no lnoger being moral and spiritual) The city states were looking for an alternative.

Then, the Turks bombarded Constantinople with the new wonder weapon, the cannon, destroying the city walls.

Constantinople at this time was the center of Greek scholarship. The Greek scholars fled to the next best place, the Italian city states.

Bringing with them, of course, the treasure of Greek philosophy, and it's theory of government, a theory which, depended on no religious authority at all, for it's legitimacy, but rather, on the rule of law. Just what the Italians needed to stick it to the Pope!

This led to the abandonment of religious rule, replacing it with civil rule. Civil rule, which has no problem with science conflicting with religion. In other words, freedom of thought.

That's how I remember it, anyways.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 17
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Posted: 4/25/2009 6:56:18 AM

In keeping that today is "Earth Day," and regardless of your position on global warming, the question I have is, do you believe our modern society is capable of going to a more sustainable mode of living.
Not yet.

Is our current "green" emphasis more than just a fad?
It's more than a fad for some, like the author of Silent Spring. The real problem is the industrial revolution and mass-production. Pollution is produced industrially, on a mass-production level, with thousands, or millions of billions of tonnes a day being mass-produced, with no stop. Recycling is produced on an individual basis, one by one, and each person only produces his recycling every now and then. So recycling is just not anywhere near as productive as pollution can be, because mass-production will always produce far more than individuals.

If we want to make a difference to the world, then we need to attack the pollution, to recycle, on the same scale as the pollution itself is produced, and that means we need to start mass-producing recycling. Until then, anything we do is just a drop in the ocean of pollution.
 scorpiomover
Joined: 4/19/2007
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Posted: 4/25/2009 7:36:07 AM
RE Msg: 28 by Twill348:
Two things did cause it, though. (The renaissance).

The Italian city states were ruled by the Papacy. However, over time, the corruption of the Papacy, leading to the Pope being merely a pawn of the richest city state, led to a de-legitimization of the Popes authority. (it no lnoger being moral and spiritual) The city states were looking for an alternative.

Then, the Turks bombarded Constantinople with the new wonder weapon, the cannon, destroying the city walls.

Constantinople at this time was the center of Greek scholarship. The Greek scholars fled to the next best place, the Italian city states.
The Renaissance was a little more complex than that. For one, Greek scholarship died with the end of the Greek Empire, but was revived by the Islamic Empire, and then shared openly via trade with Christian Europe.

When the Romans sacked the Greek places of scholarship, like the Island of Rhodes, they were never rebuilt. So they got ignored.

When Islam rose, many Muslim universities rose with it, and as they conquered the countries that were once ruled by Greece, and still had many Greek manuscripts, these Muslims took great care to preseve them, and understand them. So the Muslims kept the knowledge of the Greeks alive, during the Dark Ages of Europe.

Then, Italian traders started to trade with Muslim Turks, particularly Venetians, and found that business with the Middle East, with its silks, and spices, unbelievably profitable. They found that the more they accommodated the customs of the Turks, the more friendly the Turks were, and the more business they did with them, and the more profit they made. So there was an incredibly big incentive to get on with the Turks. In order to get on better with them, the Venetian traders spent years learning their language and spending time with them, and the Turks also shared the scientific knowledge and manuscripts they had amassed through the Muslim world as a result.

The Venetians and other Italians then took this knowledge back to share with other Italians, and this is how Greek and Muslim knowledge got started.

For instance, Copernicus studied at Padua and Ferrara, in Italy. Later, he published writings on Heliocentrism. But what is remarkable is that his drawings are almost identical to ones found in some of the famous Muslim scholars of the time. It shows that Copernicus did not come up with his ideas on his own, but far more likely, came across well-known Muslim manuscripts and theories about the solar system, in his time in Italy, and they formed the basis of his ideas.

Greeks => Muslims => Europeans.

Bringing with them, of course, the treasure of Greek philosophy, and it's theory of government, a theory which, depended on no religious authority at all, for it's legitimacy, but rather, on the rule of law. Just what the Italians needed to stick it to the Pope!

This led to the abandonment of religious rule, replacing it with civil rule. Civil rule, which has no problem with science conflicting with religion. In other words, freedom of thought.
The Muslims of Muslim Spain (Andalusia) were experts on Greek philosophy, especially Aristotelian philosophy. But they did not see any contradiction between Greek philosophy and religion. Neither did Christian scholars.

It is especially important to understand that in the Greek-ruled lands, they consisted of individual city-states, each country consisting of one walled city, with whatever farming lands around it that were safely controlled by the army of that city. Cities would war with each other all the time, and had no problem in taking the captured as slaves. In addition, it was common and acceptable in Greek society for parents to kill sickly babies. What's more, Pythagoras, the great Greek philosopher and mathematician, burned one of his students alive, simply for believing in negative numbers.

The most barbaric treatments that we know of in the religious Europe of the Dark Ages was normal for Greek society.

What's clear in English history, is that until the Renaissance, there were a lot of civil wars. The Wars of the Roses, and many others, made it almost impossible to trade, unless goods were protected by private armies. So most trade was done between warlords, who were the nobles of the time. So most people had no money to trade, and could not afford any education either, and only the nobility had trade and education. But as England slowly became ruled stronger and stronger by one king, and those wars were stamped out, it became increasingly less important to have private militia protecting traders, and so more and more ordinary people could trade. By the time of the Renaissance, there was no need for traders to be protected by soldiers. So trade become the most important factor, not military force, and that allowed scientific developments that helped trade to be taken up by more and more traders, and the same was true of scientific developments that helped professions that depended on knowledge, rather than if your family had an army. That eventually became known as "progress", because everyone could progress, not just the nobility, those who had a military force at their disposal.

Really, what happened was that as Europe had less and less civil wars, trade and professions could increase, and with it, scientific developments that helped trade and professions.

Part and parcel of that increase of trade, was that the Black Death wiped out so many soldiers, that civil wars simply were far less possible, because there weren't enough soldiers to fight, and that in itself increased trade.
 Twill348
Joined: 12/20/2008
Msg: 19
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Posted: 4/30/2009 5:03:30 PM
""What's clear in English history, is that until the Renaissance, there were a lot of civil wars. The Wars of the Roses, and many others, made it almost impossible to trade, unless goods were protected by private armies. So most trade was done between warlords, who were the nobles of the time. So most people had no money to trade, and could not afford any education either, and only the nobility had trade and education. But as England slowly became ruled stronger and stronger by one king, and those wars were stamped out, it became increasingly less important to have private militia protecting traders, and so more and more ordinary people could trade. By the time of the Renaissance, there was no need for traders to be protected by soldiers. So trade become the most important factor, not military force, and that allowed scientific developments that helped trade to be taken up by more and more traders, and the same was true of scientific developments that helped professions that depended on knowledge, rather than if your family had an army."

But why did that happen? Thee were reasons for that. The King of England did not rule larger areas because he wanted to, he did it because he had to. With each new increase in war making technology, comes a coresponding challenge to the existing governments. They must get the new weapons to survive, and the new weapons cost more. Therfore, kingdoms must expand, to spread the cots of war over larger areas.

In addition, new weapons means new tactics, which may mean more troops are needed, thus, the need for a larger population base, and a loyal one as well.

So, when I said that the Greek scholars came to Italy, I was also meaning that the cannons also were the cause of the renaissance. Without the cannons, the city would not have fallen. Indeed, the cannons made city walls obsolete, making legal and state control of territory esential to security. The Pope could never provide that kind of security.


"and as they conquered the countries that were once ruled by Greece, and still had many Greek manuscripts, these Muslims took great care to preseve them, and understand them. So the Muslims kept the knowledge of the Greeks alive, during the Dark Ages of Europe."

Well, one time a Christian apologist made the claim to me, that Greek philosophy was kept alive by the Christian monks. I suspected that that was not the case! :)
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
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Posted: 5/4/2009 9:17:14 AM

"We have all the survival instincts and strength that we need, sure our physical strength doesn't compare with a bear's, but if you add in our mental strength (the ability to outsmart an animal) and our social networks (which number anywhere from a few to a few thousand) you see a strength emerge that is unmatched by even the top predators of the animal kingdom."
The most common expressions of "mental strengths" are our abilities to create tools- that is, technologies. A flint arrowhead (with associated arrow shaft and propulsion system- the bow) is every bit as much a piece of technology as your PC. Other "mental strengths" would include language, the ability to form social networks (that is, social culture), agriculture and the domestication of animals.
I think ultimately the scientific and technical and the economic and political sides of society will be forced to work together when the dangerous effects of climate change start to hit in about 10-15 years, as science seems to predict. This, and the current worldwide economic depression, will probably force the world into a more sustainable mode of living.
I wish I could be so optimistic. A big part of the problem is the very greedy nature of those in positions of influence (wealth), the political realities of staying in power while making hugely unpopular decisions, and the obtuse selfishness and greed of the masses.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 21
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Posted: 5/4/2009 7:12:48 PM

"Where did you read that ? It's completely wrong."




"According to a report from the United Nations Population Fund, based on 1998 analyses (see The State of World Population 1999), projections for the future global population are being revised downward. The projection for 2050 now is 8.9 billion (medium variant), substantially lower than the 1996 projection of 9.4 billion.


Well, you're still wrong. While it's true that the projection for population growth has been revised downward, it still projects significant growth, given that the current world population is 6.7 billion, more or less.

http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

So now the projection is for an increase of "only" another 2.2 billion, one third more than our current number.

But as to the original question, I have quite a lot of confidence that humans will adopt sustainable practices. I just wish we could be smart enough to do it without going through a lot of pain first.

As resources dwindle their cost will rise. It will be economically essential to conserve, and renewable resources will become the most cost efficient option. As for our unsustainable population growth, that could be resolved simply by making birth control readily available to everyone, regardless of income. Countries where such is already the case already have low birth rates. Or we could (and probably will) do it the hard way, through famine, disease, and escalating global conflicts over diminishing resource supplies. Either way our numbers will drop. They have to.

But we're a tenacious species, able to survive virtually anywhere on the globe on a broad range of diets. We grumble a lot, but we adapt to whatever circumstances we're presented with. As the climate warms, oil and other fossil fuels become more scarce, species we currently depend on become extinct or greatly threatened, we'll adjust how we live. We're smart enough to do that, but I fear not smart enough to take the needed steps now to initiate the changes we'll be forced to make sooner than later.

I think the next two or three decades will usher in incredible changes for us, some intentional, many not. Enough of us will adapt to sustain our species. We can only hope the lessons learned along the way help future generations make better choices.

Dave
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 22
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Posted: 5/4/2009 8:07:43 PM

I wish I could be so optimistic.

How many times in the history of man have times been dire? Even when they aren't, people will create dire times. Such apocalyptic outlooks have been the foundation of many a religious and political movement. If you don't let it take over, you can see a totally different future. It's a future of great and wonderful challenges. Out of challenge comes opportunity.

Have you ever wondered how apocalyptic cults could lead otherwise intelligent, highly educated and successful people to their own destruction? Totalitarian government? Just where does the paranoia lead?
 Beaugrand®™©
Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 23
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Posted: 5/4/2009 9:51:06 PM

Have you ever wondered how apocalyptic cults could lead otherwise intelligent, highly educated and successful people to their own destruction?
They basically use the same techniques Bernie Madoff used.
How many times in the history of man have times been dire? Even when they aren't, people will create dire times.
...housing bubble. Completely artificial, completely avoidable. Unfortunately, apparently, no laws were broken (mostly because the appropriate laws had been rescinded).
 WanderingRain
Joined: 3/9/2008
Msg: 24
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Posted: 5/4/2009 11:05:17 PM
Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
I usually don't like to think negatively, but I wonder if it will take a serious catastrophe to wake people up. Somehow, that's the only way the majority ever learn from the beginning of time. You can view all the global tragedies from the beginning of recorded history and you will see a pattern where if enough people suffer, only then will we change or promise to do better.
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 25
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Posted: 5/5/2009 7:40:01 AM

...housing bubble. Completely artificial, completely avoidable.

I tend to see this as a result of government encouraging excessive housing loan risks through laws such as the CRA and government formed corporations such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. All were designed to encourage people to borrow more than they could afford.

History is written through the bias of those in power. If one were to examine the actions of FDR in response to the stock speculation collapse of 1929, it would appear remedial government actions extended the depression for a decade up to WWII. Since the US economy impacted the economy and thus politics of the world, including Germany, it is not unreasonable to question if those actions actually encouraged Hitler's rise to power.

Why is it people turn to government for solutions when much of the time, government created created the problems? When people are empowered over others, that power not only corrupts but it attracts the corrupt. The only durable solution is to not create the power structures. I realize this is completely contrary to the current political trend of whining for a government nursemaid but the topic is sustainability. Sustainability requires INDIVIDUAL actions, not oppression. Only voluntary action can provide sustained incentive even if the actions required are collective.

Academic environments are hardly some microcosm of a sustainable society. They are in fact financial parasites on society. There is no problem with that as long as they do not forget their role is to provide the intellectual tools to young adults find their own way in the greater society. Too often, from their cloistered ivy covered ivory towers, they have a skewed perception of the world they really have little experience with.
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 26
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Posted: 5/5/2009 1:36:01 PM
It is OUR nature to adapt to the changes in our environment. Naivety would be legislate nature but such is the nature of empowered bureaucrats. As an example, a family of beavers was actually threatened with legal action for their illegal dam project. http://www.snopes.com/humor/letters/dammed.asp
Is it naive for people to wear warm clothing in winter?
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 27
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Posted: 5/7/2009 7:44:46 AM
why has the name of an insect been censored?

It's a vast government conspiracy! Our leaders are mere puppets of a committee of roaches bent on world domination. They can't allow this information to leak out or they might get stepped on.

The age of insects is in the past, not the future. They now pretty much serve to clean up after other species. In the furture, they may serve as protein sources with some genetic engineering. Their physical structure is limited by a respiratory system that struggles with the earth's current oxygen levels. In the ancient past, oxygen and CO2 were much higher allowing life to grow explosively. Insects were much larger than now. Despite the hype about CO2 causing climate change, we need it to survive as that is what plants use to capture energy from the sun. Over Earth's history, the amount of CO2 has gone down and so has the density of life on the planet.
 Twill348
Joined: 12/20/2008
Msg: 28
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Posted: 5/7/2009 3:31:44 PM
"So basically what you're getting at is that everything that happened in Europe around that time had nothing to do with the Black Plague and would have happened anyway."

Absoloutly. You know, people dying, is not news. It changes zip. New forms of government, society, that's change you can beleive in! The whole point of the advancement from the Papal states to the Princly states, was to aquire more territory, and tax more people. If anything, the Black death only slowed that process down a bit.
 Twill348
Joined: 12/20/2008
Msg: 29
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Posted: 5/7/2009 3:37:42 PM
"The Muslims of Muslim Spain (Andalusia) were experts on Greek philosophy, especially Aristotelian philosophy. But they did not see any contradiction between Greek philosophy and religion. Neither did Christian scholars."

Hmmm....this guy says your wrong about that.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2495

His point would be, that the Byzantine Christians really preserved the Greek philosophy, and that Muslim interest was peripheral at best. Also, the Muslims ignored Greek governmenteal theory, as it ignored God, and was a government of Man, without God, and was thus blasphemous.

When the Byzantines fled Constantinople, it was because they didn't feel safe being with the Muslims. It could not have been that great a relationship.
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