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 NDSUPhD2B
Joined: 4/19/2009
Msg: 49
Racial Realism or ... Racism?Page 3 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
With regard to Race/Intelligence, I would say it is closer to pseudo-science. Remember that intelligence in the empirical sense is defined by a test that was created by the white majority and although it claims to be race and gender neutral, it is hard to think that this is actually the case. In addition, remember that it was only 50 years ago that we really began pushing for equality and I would argue that equality of education is still far from the norm.

An important factor is how one defines intelligence. Certainly we could include common sense into the equation and find that there is no difference between any race or culture. Part of the problem is in how we define the term.

With regard to Eugenics, I think intentions of some eugenics supporters are good, but the actual implementation of such a movement is probably absolutely ridiculous at best, especially when you think of eugenics with regard to race. Eugenics with respect to deadly disease, mental deficiencies, etc. is a nice idea in theory, but could you imagine a world where everyone is essentially the same? I think that it would create more problems than it would solve.

Finally, I agree with you that true power comes through unity. I only wish that more would see it that way. We are defined by our differences rather than our similarities and this is one of the greatest problems facing the world today.
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 54
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Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/4/2010 4:19:39 PM
One example of a problem with IQ tests:

Some researchers wanted to test the IQs of a village of "primitive" people so they devised some tests that did not depend on literacy and knowledge of specific subjects that only a person with a Western university education would know. For instance, they would present the villagers with various items and ask them to group them, thinking they would put all the vegetables together, all the tools together, etc. However the villagers had a different notion. They would group the vegetables, the knife, and the basket together because the basket could be used to carry the vegetables and the knife would be used to cut them.

I think OP exposes his lack of science and his racism. I agree with stargazer: eugenics is not science and yes, it is racist. OP proves that Caucasians are not necessarily more intelligent.


<div class='quote'>I am still thinking if I could tell someone who didn't racially fit a role that they weren't right for the job.........................

And if the sub were Caucasian, you wouldn't have noticed any difference because he was racially "right" for the role? It doesn't occur to you that once you saw he didn't look the way you thought he should, you were already influenced?

Marian Anderson comes to mind.

 Mitochondrion
Joined: 8/11/2010
Msg: 56
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/6/2010 6:36:56 AM
I have often found it astounding how these obvious troll posts randomly appear and the op never seems to have a pic. 95% of our population formulates their ideals based on the ideas of others, rather with rational, critical thinking, and research.

This is either a troll. Or the OP falls into the 95% category.
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 57
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Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/8/2010 7:48:24 PM
I've learned that it's next to impossible to have an intelligent, rational discussion about this topic. Especially with older folks.

There are significant differences between the what are called human "races". This is a very well documented fact. Acknowledging this reality does not necessarily make one a racist, but it does make them informed.

Race = Breed

We know, conclusively, that there are differences between breeds of dogs, cats, and other mammals. Why then do many people get so bent out of shape when anyone speaks about physiological differences between human breeds?

Insecurity I think. Most likely with the truth.





The Flynn Effect I think is even more interesting than racial IQ differences.
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 60
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Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/12/2010 3:45:19 PM
Painful to read this thread with all the straw man arguments and complete lack of understanding of statistics.
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 63
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Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/13/2010 3:24:26 PM

This reminds me of everyone telling me I would get hurt because I dated a black man and "they treat women badly". After 6 weeks, he cheated on me and I dumped him. My family, coworkers and pretty much everyone I knew said "I told you so". The funny thing is, I was treated far worse by a violent, white exhusband who cheated many, many times, abused me in many different ways and tried to kill me. Everyone seems to hope that I've "learned my lesson" about black men, but nobody has ever warned me not to date white guys. Is this kind of behavior only caused by race when the guy isn't white? Is crime only caused by race when you are not white? People are assumed to be guilty if they are black or hispanic, therefore, they are arressted and convicted at a higher rate. Add to that the fact that blacks and hispanics are more frequently forced to live in poverty, and it might explain the crime rates.

This is what I'm talking about with people who don't understand statistics.

No one experience you have is entirely dictated by statistics, nor is your single experience important in a statistical fashion. The people warned you that blacks are more likely to treat women badly had a marginally statistically advantageous argument (actually I'm just assuming; I'm not familiar with any statistical claim that blacks are worse than anyone else in their treatment of women). Your experience with the white guy: shit happens. It was statistically less likely to happen: this doesn't mean the stats don't just count for white people. It also doesn't mean either experience should cause you to hold it against people in your future, be they white, nor black.


Is crime only caused by race when you are not white?

No, you just are statistically more likely to find that a non-white will perform criminal behavior. This isn't "caused by race". As for the explanations for it, sure, differential education opportunities, cultural differences (often caused by different cultural education opportunities and poverty), etc...

These "yeah but I found a time where it didn't follow the statistics, so it must be wrong" is like saying "well I don't have to look both ways before crossing the street because I know someone that didn't look both ways and lived".

Arguing that statistics don't say what they say is just as foolish as using racial statistics -- which really don't show any important differences (sure, blacks typically have lower IQ scores, Jews have higher scores, women have a higher graduation rate from college, etc)... these differences are all pretty narrow -- as justification to personally judge someone. Yes, it cannot really be argued that whites have a higher crime rate than blacks. But in your personal life, you will meet all manners of people, and it's no help to try and judge people against things like that. Separate statistics from your personal treatment of people. Don't avoid dating white guys because they're white, or black guys because they're black (unless you just aren't attracted to one or the other).
 olddirtybastard
Joined: 9/9/2010
Msg: 64
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/13/2010 3:25:18 PM
WHY ARE WE SOO CONCERNED ABOUT averages, ANYWAY ?

WHAT IMPACT, or importance, do AVERAGES have on our lives

WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS

EVEN IF YOU COULD SHOW THAT on average , LET'S SAY, BLACK PEOPLE had a slightly lower average IQ than whites, it would hardly follow that you could conclude that an individual white person was smarter than an individual black person. I'm sure Barack Obama is quite a bit more intelligent than MOST white peep's, there's plenty of other examples out there as well

I just don't get the obsession/focus on AVERAGES.? One hand on ice, one in a fire, on average both hands feel fine?
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 65
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Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/13/2010 3:43:26 PM
Because it is how we, as a society, target problems and try and solve them.

And some of us like understanding trends, and what is happening outside our tiny little life bubble.
 olddirtybastard
Joined: 9/9/2010
Msg: 66
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/13/2010 3:53:00 PM
so you now argue the opposite of what you just said 5 minutes ago in another thread about dating & literacy..


God dammit.

Okay, we need a way to not allow people to comment on statistically-themed discussions until they pass a basic quiz about statistics.

Nobody advanced the claim that there was an exclusive correlation here, and that there's no such thing as an intelligent religious person. The claim was advanced in the original post that more religious people had a higher correlation of poor literacy than did atheist people.


snow in my area usually appears white to me -I know you will have to disagree, Mr. Smart Pants.

and yes, you are soo much better and smarter and more socially aware than I am; but I don't really care

feel better now? :)
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 67
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Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/13/2010 4:05:44 PM
Both my statements are consistent, albeit on different slightly topics: using statistics as a tool to study groups of people vs. using statistics to make personal judgments in your personal life.

I believe one of my recent posts (look up) explicitly explained this.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 68
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/13/2010 4:08:27 PM
I accept the fact there is a correlation between race and intelligence,

And as anyone ought to know, correlation does not imply causation. That's fundamental in any statistical analysis. An example would be giving you a test written in Chinese. If you didn't do very well o it, it could be becuse you aren't very smart or because you don't understand Chinese. Other reasons could be much more subtle.

EVEN IF YOU COULD SHOW THAT on average , LET'S SAY, BLACK PEOPLE had a slightly lower average IQ than whites, it would hardly follow that you could conclude that an individual white person was smarter than an individual black person.

No, but you could use that knowledge to pinpoint the reason for the difference and make sure the tests don't have some inheret cultural bias that isn't related to what the test purports to measure. Since tests like the SAT and GRE can have a big effect on what a person does after high school, it would be important to ensure that no one is at a disadvantage for reasons other than what those tests are supposed to determine. If a particular group of people receives low scores because they are overrepresented in poor school districts, then one could fix the problem.

 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 69
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Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/13/2010 4:14:32 PM
Yes, but correlations do imply that there is some sort of causation when they're found reliably enough. And this is common sense.

We do know that blacks tend to have less privileged academic opportunities, suffer higher poverty rates, come up in cultures where parents may believe that their kids should focus on athletics rather than scholastic work as an avenue for success, etc... All these things cause a cycle. Intelligence seems to be half genetics, half upbringing. Even if we assume blacks and the rest of the races have statistically identical genetic intelligence, half the equation we already know to be not in their favor.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 71
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/14/2010 1:02:44 AM

Yes, but correlations do imply that there is some sort of causation when they're found reliably enough.

No, it doesn't. At best, you can suspect there is some causal reason for the correlation and develop additional means for demonstrating the causal relationship you expect. The definition of correlation does not include any cause and effect between the random variables being measured. In fact, one varaible can be completely determined by the other and have a zero correlation. Conversely, two variables can be completely correlated and have bo causal relationship at all.

In addition, studying doesn't make you smart. What seperates smart people from not so smart people is how quickly people with identical backgrounds can assimilate, abstract and apply new information in ways that were not explicitly shown to someone. That ability applies to scholastic work, playing basketball, dealing crack cocaine or scamming a tv audience for religious contributions.

IQ tests are designed to measure the intelligence of people with the assumption that those being tested have similar enough backgrounds to make the test meaningful.
 .dej
Joined: 11/6/2007
Msg: 72
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Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/14/2010 9:25:29 AM

No, it doesn't. At best, you can suspect there is some causal reason for the correlation and develop additional means for demonstrating the causal relationship you expect. The definition of correlation does not include any cause and effect between the random variables being measured. In fact, one varaible can be completely determined by the other and have a zero correlation. Conversely, two variables can be completely correlated and have bo causal relationship at all.

Yes, in an abstract sense. But you are being a bit unrealistic. After the sun has risen enough times in the morning, we do safely assume it's going to do it again tomorrow, and that there's probably a good reason.


In addition, studying doesn't make you smart. What seperates smart people from not so smart people is how quickly people with identical backgrounds can assimilate, abstract and apply new information in ways that were not explicitly shown to someone. That ability applies to scholastic work, playing basketball, dealing crack cocaine or scamming a tv audience for religious contributions.

And, given a proper test design, it applies in solving the problems presented on an IQ test.
 Mitochondrion
Joined: 8/11/2010
Msg: 74
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/15/2010 12:14:49 PM

hy then do many people get so bent out of shape when anyone speaks about physiological differences between human breeds?


Because there is always a pompous uneducated pseudo intellect person with a personal agenda who wishes to discuss it. :)
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 75
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/18/2010 12:30:52 PM
I have no idea why I'm bothering:

That's not true. IQ tests are used with all races. IQ is inherited from the mother. It has nothing to do with memorizing. It is basic brain power.

First, IQ isn't inherited from the mother. The genetic marker is on the X chromosome; girls get an X from both the mother and father. Even my remote memory of IQ tests brings back memories of cultural measures on IQ tests - the vocabulary section tests how much the subject has read for the most part, as an example.

Look, with any human skill, repetition brings competence. A kid who plays at origami will do better at the spatial testing. But if they tested for recognizing small differences in plants, then a kid in a hunter/gatherer culture would test off the charts.

Finally, when my ancestors left Africa, they left almost the entirety of the human race's genetic diversity behind. Just like more 7 footers are black, so most of those genetically blessed with superior intellects are black. You might want to ask why most Senators, judges and surgeons don't reflect that.
 chrono1985
Joined: 11/20/2004
Msg: 77
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 9/19/2010 12:41:30 AM
The one thing I always believed on these strange measures of a race's intelligence is that they are flawed by human nature. We have a tendency to do the same things as our peers, the easiest potential peer to recognize is one of the same race followed closely by gender. Sure there are exceptions to this but it is true for a larger amount of people than it is false for.

There is also one crucial factor such studies ignore. What behavior they believe to be intelligent may not be the behavior another believes to be intelligent. It's rather easy to see out in the world around you in two extremes: one group of people will follow the "don't fix what isn't broken", while another will follow "there's always room for improvement". These are mutually exclusive ideas which lead to no end in arguments that tend to result at some point in calling one or the other stupid.
 quietcowboy
Joined: 12/25/2007
Msg: 78
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Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 10/4/2010 10:08:55 AM
Actually Wikipedia does a pretty good job of stating what I've read in regards to this subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence
 OpenEyes
Joined: 9/26/2010
Msg: 80
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 10/4/2010 2:05:26 PM
It is really, really simplistic to assume that a multi-faceted, incredibly complex and very vaguely defined trait like 'intelligence' comes from a single gene or even a single chromosome that follows mendellian genetics. Why you assume intelligence is coded for only on the sex-chromosomes, rather than one of the other 22 pairs, is beyond me. If that were really the case we'd expect to see a drastic disparity in the intelligence of men vs women.

In reality environmental influence on various measures of intelligence is vast- lower scores is what we would expect to see in a demographic that's socioeconomically disadvantaged. We would also hope to see the disparity narrow as some of those barriers and handicaps have been lifted in recent history... which is also what is seen.

Another thing to keep in mind is stereotype threat- by perpetuating the stereotype of blacks as unintelligent or uneducated, you put additional stress on them as well as a social expectation of their role. A very interesting psychological study took a mixed population group and randomly divided them into two samples; they were both given identical critical thinking test using sports examples, but each group was told the test had a different purpose- Group A was told it was testing their intelligence, while group B was told it was testing their sports ability. In group A, the white students scored better than the black students, as is seen on other intelligence tests.

In Group B, the black students scored BETTER than the white students.
Behold, the power of stereotype.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 81
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 10/5/2010 8:00:09 AM

Why you assume intelligence is coded for only on the sex-chromosomes, rather than one of the other 22 pairs, is beyond me. If that were really the case we'd expect to see a drastic disparity in the intelligence of men vs women.


No. What you would see is a drastic disparity in the rates of mental retardation between men and women - a man would have only one gene which wouldn't be modified by a second. And that's exactly what you find - one wonky gene (either for greater or lesser intelligence) is unmodified by a normal second gene.

But yeah, IQ tests are heavily culturally biased. I recently read The Blind Side (good movie, great book); Michael Oher's IQ test scores jumped 20 points in one year after being adopted into a rich, white family. That's not supposed to happen - it's supposed to be a constant and unbiased measure of innate intelligence.
 OpenEyes
Joined: 9/26/2010
Msg: 82
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 10/5/2010 5:19:47 PM

No. What you would see is a drastic disparity in the rates of mental retardation between men and women - a man would have only one gene which wouldn't be modified by a second. And that's exactly what you find

It is true that there are quite a few sex chromosome-linked mental retardations. There's also quite a few non sex-chromosme linked mental retardations. Down Syndrome, for example, is caused by an extra chromosome 21.

Most genetic diseases will impair mental function because they also impair physiological function of the body as a whole, and the XY combination is a weakpoint and source of several sex-linked conditions. This doesn't mean that the sex chromosome is the sole determinant of intelligence by any means though, just that it can inherit disabilities that render the rest of the intelligence 'pantheon' moot. It is somewhat irrelevant, though, because as I understand it we were talking about genetic factors predicting normal intelligence, assuming a functional body.
 FyrKrakn
Joined: 2/21/2010
Msg: 83
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 11/19/2010 4:20:08 PM
Wow. Statistical outcomes can be worded in findings to "prove" just about anything. Flawed studies do not make a pot un black. Eugenics had a racist agenda from the beginning, any study or outcome of research built on that foundation is a house full of crackheads.

Some good points have been made, so I won't try to retell the fairy tale, just say that the bottom line is that the story of Eugenics is a pointless one with 2D characters. You want to make the white world proud to be white? Stop embarrassing us.
 societalblessing
Joined: 10/15/2010
Msg: 84
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 11/20/2010 11:57:30 PM
The measure of intelligence must always be biased as every culture differs in what it considers intelligence. Just as the color spectrum varies from society to society so too does what matters in intelligence. Intelligence is nothing more than identifying patterns. Some may say that IQ is identifying new creative ways of the same information compared to others but that is a bogus assertion (think of the idiot who can rig the broken down car in various creative ways.) Since IQ is about pattern identification, culture determines which patterns matter. Given IQ tests are used to identify the ability to identify a specific set of patterns, it stands that IQ tests are biased in the sense that the expected pattern to identify is what is being tested for. A second point to be made is that Americans do worse on IQ tests compared to other nations, but produce more nobel prize winners and technology than others. They sell things better. That takes creativity which is the strength of the American educational system and is often overlooked.

Third IQ can be raised. That is why they sell IQ test preperation kits. One could take the IQ test do horrible and after study for the exam for a year, raise their IQ score. That tells me IQ can be raised and is not genetic nor just cultural but consists in individual habit and determination as well. If it is raised it cannot be just cultural nor just genetic.

And no I have not nor will I take an IQ test!
 societalblessing
Joined: 10/15/2010
Msg: 85
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 11/21/2010 12:57:33 AM
I would also like to add that the mark of genious is discovered with what one does with their suffering.
 axl617
Joined: 9/3/2010
Msg: 86
Racial Realism or ... Racism?
Posted: 11/23/2010 1:35:35 PM

With all due respect, thats racism. Its also sheer nonsense. Where did you get these ideas? Here are some famous black scientists who you do not know about;


*sigh* this gambit again. What don't you understand about the term 'collectively'?

To OP. I do believe there is a general difference in levels of intellect. Just as skin color is a result of adaption to our environment... as is intelligence.
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