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 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 26
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Doing the math: 200/25/0Page 2 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
Can you answer this for me…Do you call and have a phone conversation with women prior to dating them? I didn’t see this question fully answered yet. It seems that I made a big mistake in my earlier post in assuming that you do.

Dating is a process of peeling back layers. What's unknown gets revealed in stages.

A phone conversation is an important step in the initial stages of dating. Missing this step could very well be what’s holding you back from that 2nd date. A phone call will usually reinforce any initial attraction that I have been feeling toward someone on paper; like-mindedness in humor, intelligence and witty banter, all are necessary for me to find someone attractive; if that exists it usually is very apparent in conversation--if not heightened. To not have a conversation prior to the date puts a lot of emphasis on that one date.

Further, if someone doesn’t have that much invested in you; meaning that you have not spent enough time getting to know them at this level, it may just be easier to just walk away from an initial date, disinterested and not wanting to commit to another outing.

If there’s real interest, I always move to a 2nd date. If I’m at all uncertain, but feel that the connection was there, but something may have been at play, like nervousness--I always agree to a 2nd date, as this date usually confirms true mutual interest one way or another.

You know, my experience is the exact reverse to yours; I’ve never had someone not ask me out for a second date—ever. While I date fairly regularly most of my dates are not from POF. I agree with suggestions to get out there and be open to finding dates offline as well. In either case I think that if you spend more time at the front end of the dating process in expanding this aspect of communication before actually making a commitment to a date with someone; you will likely date less—but be more successful.

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 croemita
Joined: 5/27/2008
Msg: 27
Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 4/27/2009 7:17:54 AM
^^ Agree with above, you need to listen to those of us telling you to follow through rather than seek excuses for your own technique not working. Repetition of mistake is not learning my friend.

That said, you want a second date? then don't finish your first date without scheduling your second. Always go into your first date with another concert, restaurant, game, party etc. that you have on deck. This way, if your date is going well, and you dig the chick you bring up the "event" and how you really need to take this girl with you on it.

If she counters with other plans or says she can't go to that particular thing, then be dejected briefly and move on in the conversation. It sounds like you're playing the text msg/phone call bit correctly but what you need to work on is clinching that second meet-up before finishing the first.

Also, some female insight on both your profile and your dating situation. Your daughter is a blessing, however she may intimidate younger women who are not ready to be step-mothers. You need to parlay her role in your day to day life. Also, given your tattoos and your overall appearance there is a dissonance between what you seem to represent and what you truly are. Perhaps bringing your appearance closer to what/who you are in your day to day life will help women to feel closer to you and WANT to be closer to you.

Lastly, women like to be chased! You have a lot to offer and if you're dating high quality women then they are not going to lower their social value by chasing you only to be rebuffed. Show interest by pursuing the second date and not taking "no" for an answer. G'luck!

~
 mjseek
Joined: 8/23/2008
Msg: 28
Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 4/27/2009 7:50:09 AM
Usually on a first Internet date it is normally the man who is making the trip to see a potential date. I say usually not always. So, here's a barometer that may be of some help to you.

Some people just don't have the fortitude to be upfront and honest and that's a pity. They will lead you on, thereby making a simple meeting very complex and confusing.

So if you're thinking the date went well, and you're feeling pretty good about the vibes you were getting and you're pump about the potential. Here's the clincher!

Once you've departed for home, and there is not a call (and by that I mean a phone call, not a text the former being more personal than the other). Inquiring if you had made it home safely than she, or he for that matter is not interested.

Matching actions with words is the apex for being complete!
 ForRumOnly
Joined: 3/16/2009
Msg: 29
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Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 4/27/2009 9:45:07 AM
I don't know what the problem is OP, really, but as some have pointed out, you're the common denominator here.

The only thing I can think of is that despite apparently good chemistry, these women decided that you were incompatible in some way and did not want to continue.

Are you screening these women sufficiently before meeting to determine that their values, beliefs, interests, and goals match sufficiently with yours so that - if the physical chemistry exists - a relationship might actually work?

I had short or long exchanges (like you via email, IM, phone) with over 900 women and only met about 50 after careful screening. I only dated about 10 of those more than twice, and only about 3 became any sort of relationship (though a few became friends). One was a keeper - or about 0.1% of the total contacts.
 OutMind
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 30
Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 4/27/2009 1:12:31 PM
Dude,

Don't feel bad. But even though the women here are going to tell you to "just be yourself," I believe that you should get your hands on any and all material that may help you improve. For instance the book that Mystery wrote had some incredible pointers that worked incredibly well for me.

Also, even though it's a numbers game, realize that with each encounter you will gain a little more experience and the important thing is not to make the same mistakes over and over again.

When I started dating I would contact about 100 women a week. No mass mailings, but unique messages that created intrigue. So I didn't try to sell myself, but pop a question, make a comments, and elicit a response. Out of that I would start conversing with anywhere from 3 to 7 ladies. Taking it to the next step with one or two. I could almost guarantee to have two dates a week, and since I had one night with the guys, and one night with a FB, my week was rather busy. When I got better, instead of contacting that many women I could achieve the same numbers by contacting 15 to 30 women. So there are improvements that have to do with how you approach them, what you put in your profile, and how you go from e-mail to asking her to meet. What works for one person may not work for another. But I never ever, asked for their phone number before asking them out. Also if they did not provide me with a phone number I would tell them right there that I would then would have to cancel the meeting.

As you get good at one thing, you move to the next thing. For instance I did have the same problem you had of converting first dates into second or third dates. What I leaned is that if you start to set up the second or third date from the get go, it naturally flows there, and even you decide you do not like the girl, it is you doing the rejecting not her. This is a technique I leaned from Pick up Artist, even though their objective was to change venue and sleep with the girl the same night, while mine was simply to get to know the girl better and yes, develop a relationship.

But again, it's a number's games and you are going to meet some women that even though you may like, you really do not want to pursue them further. Anyway, the set up is easy, start talking about stuff that you like that would make and awesome next date. With a tri girl I suggested a place where tri people train, and is really cool. So to then ask her for the date is more like "I thought you'd never ask" sort of response from her.

Once you move into another stage you can go through different learning curves, from asking someone out or getting their phone number, to approaching the first kiss, or even having a rump all night.

My problem was that once I got really good at this, I found one awesome woman that was a real keeper. So it's not a bad problem to have. But there are behaviors that women ALWAYS have and once you recognize them and develop your personal approach to them, you won have the problem you have anymore.
 GoneSailinBabe
Joined: 7/6/2008
Msg: 31
Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 4/28/2009 6:37:08 AM
Is it possible that you're spending more time on statistical analysis than you are on being a date women would be interested in long term?

Are you an accountant? How do you keep track of these numbers? Spiral notebook?

This astounds me to contemplate so early in the morning...this is rather like notches on the bedpost for each sexual encounter isn't it?
 OutMind
Joined: 2/13/2007
Msg: 32
Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 4/28/2009 6:52:38 AM

Op; It is very clear to me now. You do not want answers to your dilemma. Almost all here, myself included, have told you that you are not correctly following through on these dates. You have ignored every single comment that says this.

The only thing you’ve done here is to uphold with explanations your actions that are not working for you. You are not seeking to change your modus operandi but merely seeking sympathy. When someone keeps doing the same thing over and over again then complains that they are being treated unfairly…….they are getting something out of it.


I totally agree with this statement. The OP has come back to every single argument that people, trying to help have pointed out, thus removing responsibility for what has happen. So I can tell you this, your problem with women, is the same problem you have here. You get lost in your analytical b ull, you don't really listen or try to understand the women that you are going out with, and the can see through that, proof is that your bating average is Zero.

So if anything your problem is that by being lost in some analytical mumbo jumbo, you try too hard, and then have consistently failed to make a move, or escalate when the situation had arrived. When you are dating, sometimes you have to make bold moves, well knowing that they may tank.
 surely im shirley
Joined: 6/14/2008
Msg: 33
Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 4/28/2009 7:03:22 AM
Well, I won't post the same quote again...but several people have asked if you actually suggested a second date and you have not answered. You claim you send an email/test to show your interest and then to keep the lines of communication open. Why, when you were together in person, would you revert back to text/email? Why wouldn't you simply call and ask her out again or make arrangements for a second date during the first?

If I went on a first date with a man who then sent me general messages, I'd move on too. Yes, you might wonder why she wouldn't do the asking next time, but....thats' not generally the way it works. Most women like to be courted for a bit. It does seem that you are reluctant to do the chasing.
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 34
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Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 4/28/2009 8:40:05 PM
I can relate to the OP. Some would say too analytical etc. but I don't think that is directly an issue but it could cause him to react in a way that is less than "productive".

I learned from a college room mate what it takes. He was the most successful player I have ever known including all the decades since. His lessons helped me recognize the type and avoid some very good con men. There was not an honest bone in him when it came to women. At least several of the women knew of the lies cheating etc. but as some posters earlier have said, it was the follow through. Properly laid on romantic platitudes, even if blatantly dishonest, will initiate rationalization that he can do no wrong. My old roomy kept notes of his lies to keep them sorted out. The lessons I learned from him have stuck more than any of the formal classes and hours of homework. He had at least one fiancee and many "one and only"s that were among the most attractive and seemingly intelligent women around. The problem is, honesty and respect are too important and ingrained in some of us to put my roomy's lessons into practice.

I am guessing dishonesty is not in the OP's personality and being intelligent and analytical (complex), his empathy and feelings take more time to resolve. He can't just lay on "romance" at the drop of a hat like a player can. His complexity makes it difficult. Honesty and respect are the enemies of dating success. Women are attracted to the dominant male and unfortunately that instinct, developed over millions of years of evolution, does not change overnight to adjust to a social world. Call it "chemistry". At least the op has one of the traits that helps him get a first date; height. Its the immediate follow-through he lacks.

When my probably fruitless search gets frustrating, I find somevengeful solace in how those who reject the good guys they SAY they want in favor of some player, will find the heartbreak in the end. Those who do it to them, as well as the guys they rejected, couldn't care less for them. They created the players who feed on them.
 Ahoytheredave
Joined: 8/29/2006
Msg: 35
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Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 4/29/2009 7:15:31 AM

Of course there are jerks and player who know how to fake the emotional investment, but that's another thread.

The issue is exactly the same. As you point out, a player will fake the emotional investment and yet the advice is to do just that even though virtually no time has passed for introspection. Then the advise is to appologise. I would suggest this is a long shot as it doesn't address the "decisive" quality she is drawn to. Few women want an apologetic (whining) man. Telling a person to feel something as opposed to faking it does not address sincerity either, that is called method acting. The only guys good at this are not the ones with true feelings, it is the players.

if none of the 25 inspired you, then the problem is that they knew you better than you knew yourself

Having seen players and their ability to play virtually ANY woman, I seriously doubt the dates had a clue. If they did, they would have patience instead of dismissal. As was discussed at length, he had the feelings but the women demanded immediate action without time for personal introspection. It is this process that make women such easy marks for players. Most players are not recognized for what they are doing.
Men and women do not have the same evolotion created imperatives when it comes to attractions. Guys are far less selective. The "one" to a man can have a lot more variables than the "one" a woman chooses. The man develops a relationship while the woman relies more on immediate "chemistry". It is this difference that pretty much frames the war between the sexes.
 setuid
Joined: 9/5/2008
Msg: 36
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Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 5/1/2009 10:31:01 AM
Just try it. Just once. Will you do that and report back to all of us? It might just work. I know I'd either say yes or no and I'm sure other woman would too and then you don't had to wonder.


Yes, I'm going to be using a combination of ideas... I've been talking to some of the "dead-end" first dates, asking them now if asking them out a second time BEFORE the first date was over, or if crossing the line to kiss them would have brought them closer or farther away, and it seems... it would have brought some of them closer (the right ones anyway; the ones I had a strong interest in going further with).

I guess I've been "too nice", and fallen into the "friend zone", by not being more aggressive.

So yes, I'm going to try your (collective) approaches and see what works best.
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 37
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Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 5/1/2009 10:40:39 AM

I've been talking to some of the "dead-end" first dates, asking them now if asking them out a second time BEFORE the first date was over, or if crossing the line to kiss them would have brought them closer or farther away, and it seems... it would have brought some of them closer (the right ones anyway; the ones I had a strong interest in going further with).

^^^It seems that many of us seem to know what we're talking about! Timing is everything my friend. Interesting that you felt comfortable enough to go back and talk to some of the ladies that you had the initial interest in, that's terrific. I wish you well.
 buckmaker
Joined: 4/20/2009
Msg: 38
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Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 5/1/2009 5:33:09 PM
Here's my 2cents. This OP is probably a lot more considerate of these women than I could muster and he's not getting respect not because there's something wrong with him but with the broads on these sites. [I can hear the rants already]. Basically, there are an army of guys willing to jump through hoops and all the woman need do is show their boobs on this site and then show up for free stuff.
In all my years I never used these sites before and got great women (really) who were anxious to take care of me.
My conclusion is that if a man wants a serious woman, go to the mall, or grocery store or even the bars. At least there you'll either get a real conversation or lucky, but you won't have to write a dissertation and apply for jobs with a bunch of hoochies that want you to send their kids to college after their true love ran off with a waitress.
 buckmaker
Joined: 4/20/2009
Msg: 39
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Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 5/1/2009 5:38:39 PM
One more thing, when you look at the women who are commenting here, they have all been on this site (probably many others too) for a least a year. Ergo, if [as they say] they want long-term relationships. What's up. With all the guys chasing em, and they're aren't taking the long term offers, then just maybe they want long term dates from whom they can pick and chose to get wild or get whatever else, that flatters
their vulturous vanities. Listen to Some Girls by the Stones. It says it all.
 buckmaker
Joined: 4/20/2009
Msg: 40
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Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 5/1/2009 5:55:13 PM
After reading Ahoy there Dave's comments I confess he is on to something but, not quite hitting the mark for OP. Women are all the same in their reptilian programing, they want a confident man to sweep them off their feet. These sites force them to be rational about their grocery list of crap they want. My advice is get their number right away and if they wont, then don't waste time. On the first date start going for it immediately. In your case, nothing ventured nothing gained or your gonna lose anyway so try to get the nookie. You might be very surprised.
 4UMaybe
Joined: 8/3/2007
Msg: 41
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Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 5/10/2009 10:00:42 AM
If you had a good time on the first date at the end of that date ask her for a second date. Let us know how that strategy works!!
 misszmsz
Joined: 5/31/2008
Msg: 42
Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 5/10/2009 11:46:28 AM
So a guy walks into a nightclub/bar and there are 75 women there, realistically how many does he try to talk to? He will probably find 10% - only 7.5 women to which he asks to dance/talk all night long. He finds after spending a little bit of time with each he only wants to go out with one - which is a about 13.35% average.

If he wanted better results than that he must aim for 25% - which means he must attempt to talk to 18.75 women ( 1 of every 4 females in the place) - using his average of 13.35% he will find only 2.5 women he realistically wants to ask on a first date beyond the club.

Your figures of 200 and meeting 25 results in a 26.7% ratio. Remember you are not meeting these women in person, so the biggest factor of chemistry is out of the picture. With 25 women and a 10% average base you should have found at least 2.5 women of whom you met, would realistically go on a first date with you, beyond the first encounter.

Out of a year you have managed to meet with a new woman (25) about once every two weeks. To increase your results means you must try to meet with a new woman every week or better yet try to increase it by 25% or 2 meets a week average.
That would be 104 new women in a year. See where this is going?

The mistake you are making is that you are considering the first meeting a real date, and therein is the problem, you are being unrealistic with the results of your math. Not even the most beautiful woman/guy or top salesperson has a 50% closing ratio.

If you truly want a 12% return on effort - then every week you must meet with an online prospect or every month go to a place where there are 75 women, you talk to 7 and get a date with 1.

Of those 12 women at a 25% average, 3 would go on a second date with you.
Of those 12 women at a 10% average, 1 would go on a second date with you.

If your first ENCOUNTER with a potential romantic partner was in person and you ask them out on a date, statistically one would have a greater chance of a second date than if you are solely obtaining your leads from an online source.

Thinking that it is weird or depressing that 0% of 25 semi-blind encounters resulted in not one first date is seriously mis-calculated, but you do the math.

If your life depended on catching a fish every day to eat, you certainly would want to go fishing every day, at a spot and time when the fish are biting.
 terri368
Joined: 4/28/2009
Msg: 43
Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 5/10/2009 12:53:09 PM
the easiest way to get a 2nd date is ask :D If you like a woman, dont wait 3-4-5 days then call her.. she's waiting for you to call and ask! And for the record.. Yes I will call a guy and talk to him and even ask him out on a date if I am interested in him just to see if the feeling is mutual if I dont hear anything from him in a day. I figure if I go out on a date and a guy doesnt call me back the next day to talk to me or even ask for a 2nd date then 'hes just not that into me' which means move on.. because they arent worth your time anyhow and yes, there is someone out there that will be eventually.
 setuid
Joined: 9/5/2008
Msg: 44
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Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 6/11/2009 8:59:39 PM

If you had a good time on the first date at the end of that date ask her for a second date. Let us know how that strategy works!!


Well, I tried some of the suggestions here, in various ways... and it didn't work.

In fact, I went on a date on Sunday with a woman who was very close to my age, we had a great time just walking on the beach and chatting, then went out to get some food, and had laughs and some good chemistry and tension the whole time.

She openly admitted that she's been on a LOT of dates, and hands-down, I was the best first-date she's ever had, ever... from online dating.

I was joking around with her about how I still haven't had a second date, and some of my other dating horror stories. She reflected that back by saying she's never had a bad date in her life. She "screens" her dates pretty well beforehand. She also said that if she noticed something in me, in my personality that would want her NOT to have a second date, she would tell me. She said it must be the "stupid chicks you're finding" that aren't compatible and can't see what a great guy I am.

At the end of the night, we had a very long hug... the kind of hug where neither person wants to be the first to let go. She reiterated that she would definitely love to get together, and SOON. I told her I'd call her tomorrow and we could figure it out. I gave her a gentle kiss on the lips and thanked her for a great end to a very busy week and weekend.

On the way home, I texted her because I forgot to tell her something. The next day, we exchanged a couple of calls and emails. She was (as she put it) "VERY pleased" with the level of openness and communication so far.

I told her my basic schedule for the week, free times and work times and all of that, and asked her if she'd like to get together on Thursday to do something... 24 hours go by without any response. Then she emails me back and says she "can't guarantee" Thursday. 24 more hours go by, and she ignores part of an email where I mentioned catching up Thursday again. She did it again tonight in a brief text where I congratulated her on securing a new job she applied for.

It's now Thursday night, and she's now vanished completely. There's no second date in the future for this one either. I tried to match her level of communication, so it wasn't over-bearing or smothering. I tried to secure the second date pretty quickly. I tried to be a gentleman, but also cross the line with some overt physicality (without shoving my tongue down her throat).

All of that failed.

What bothers me the most, is that SHE was the one who said she couldn't see why anyone would not want a second date with me. And yet as it all played out, she did exactly what the rest of them did... said she wanted a second date, said she was VERY interested in me, and vanished too.

Lied to. Deceived. Manipulated again... Back to the drawing board I go.

 Lovelygirl88
Joined: 6/25/2008
Msg: 45
Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 6/12/2009 1:19:46 AM
OP, it is now June 09, been about 2 months since you posted this problem. If I were you I would be "frustrated" too. But don't "hate" women, yet. To be with women, you have to learn to like / love them ( women in general). There is a post by a guy here that said that.
I am not suggesting that you need to be a player to get merely a second date.

I read your profile, and think maybe you'd consider :
* Your body language when you meet these girls.
* Your genuine sincerity, attention, curiousity toward the date.
* Why would you want a second date ( just for statistic), how about your real feeling ( sparks)?. Maybe of all these women, YOU did not find real sparks? or your heart belongs to a woman already?.
* Body arts?, geographic?
I am sure a guy will sail over seven seas for a woman he truly likes.
 seekndestroy
Joined: 8/20/2008
Msg: 46
Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 6/12/2009 2:34:17 AM
dude... you obviously are getting the dates so that's not the problem....

now what you have to do is just try to "get some".... dont worry about a second date just make the first one count !!!!!

worse that can happen is she turns you down.... which is pretty much all you've gotten so far......and if she calls you to "meet" again, you will have met your goal.

dont worry...it not like you are gonna give us a bad rep.... we are already used to being reminded that we are ALL nothing but players on a regular basis....


 seekndestroy
Joined: 8/20/2008
Msg: 47
Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 6/12/2009 3:06:01 AM
hey scat.... let the poor man be now !!!!

some people have an affinity for banging their heads against a particular spot on the wall over and over..... and over and over again !!!!!

some things are what i refer to as "self correcting" ... like crossing the freeway during rush hour or riding a bike with a blindfold.... or dating!!!

unfortunately not everyone gets the "self correcting" concept !!!

 setuid
Joined: 9/5/2008
Msg: 48
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Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 6/12/2009 6:58:48 AM

Perhaps the text message you are sending is not a strong enough interest.


If I've felt some good chemistry and they've indicated they felt the same for me, I usually send something like: "I had a great time tonight, and am definitely interested in getting together again. Have a good night, sleep well :)" , or similar.


The men who were interested in me seriously enough for a second date did take the intiative and either CALL the next day, or at the very least email.


I do this as well, at least within the first 24 hours, 48 at the longest (depends on business schedules and all that). I never let a good one slip through my fingers if we both had a good time on the first date, or got along well in initial phone calls or emails.


I think you are victim of psycho babble like "He is not that in to you" where it is beaten into women's heads to let the man do the chasing.


I'll chase, up to a point. I won't "cling" or "stalk", if I don't see some sort of interest reciprocated back to me.

If I've set up the date, done all the preparation and driving, gone the extra mile (metaphorically), expressed my interest ON the date, after the date, and tried to get another date within the next day or two, keeping the lines of communication open... and I hear NOTHING back, I stop chasing. I won't run around and around and around, sending dozens of emails or texts or calls... if there is ZERO reciprocation. And I'm talking about reciprocation from women who had genuine interest, or lied about having genuine interest.


You know those 25 women. I suggest you contact them again with a friendly email and ask them where you dropped the ball and see if they would like a second meeting or date.


See, that's just it.. I didn't drop the ball, they did. I held the ball, dribbled it down the court, drove to the net... and found nothing there when I got to the other side.

Occam's Razor suggests that these women were either:

a.) abducted by aliens, with no justification for their silence and ignoring my attempts to communicate (even a "Had a great time, but I don't see anything more here for us" would be totally fine too)

b.) liars, feigning interest, when they really had none, and just wanted a fun night out without any intention to go further
 sweetest
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 49
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Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 6/12/2009 7:17:14 AM

Lied to. Deceived. Manipulated again... Back to the drawing board I go.

^^^We all experience this to varying degrees. This attitude will not be helpful for you going forward though.

You might recall that I was one who posted and advised on your thread several times. While you state that you took the advice...did you also try with more than one person? As a singular event, this date was a kind of litmus test wasn't it and perhaps pressure??? Have you had 2nd dates with others?

Unfortunately, the woman that you were with may have had competing interests or a declining interest in seeing you in the following days. And yes, some people are duplicitous. Some people are not good at stating where they are with someone on the spot...so they say what's appropriate, and what can get them away without having to lay it out there. That's always going to be there.

Don't give up. Get out there again.
Try to keep your expectations low always.
Kiss on the cheek after the date on a first date..but be affectionate throughout the date.
Get the next date agreed to on the first date.
Do not text after the date. Call her it's more intimate.

/setuid: send me an email-I can't because of your filters.
 ForRumOnly
Joined: 3/16/2009
Msg: 50
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Doing the math: 200/25/0
Posted: 6/12/2009 8:21:53 AM
The solution is undefined, because you can't divide by zero. I think you need to reformulate the problem.
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