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 BumFluff122
Joined: 4/4/2009
Msg: 53
how is the universe expanding?Page 3 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)

The theory that atoms exist is just a theory, too.
You are awrae the most powerful microscopes can see atoms right? There have been pictures of atoms in various recent scientific journals. You probably mean that the nucleus of an atom is just a theory. This is because we can't actually see the nucleus of the atom as it is completely enshrouded in an electron cloud. However we know it exists because energy passed through that electron cloud mostly passes through. However there is a small point in the center where it is bounced back.

The point in the center is so small, I've read, that, if expanded to the size of a solar system, the cloud would be hundreds of times farther out than the farthest object in our solar system is from the Sun.
 dominickjohn
Joined: 3/16/2009
Msg: 54
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 5/5/2009 1:56:07 PM
Simplest answer:

The universe is being compressed and divided within a finite space. It's fractal. People always think of infinity as only infinitely large and not infinitely small at the same time.

Check the work of Nassim Haramein, pretty cool stuff. Did you know inside every atom/sun/planet there's a black hole? :)
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 56
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 5/6/2009 4:08:09 PM

My theory is that what we call energy runs through all existence, including ourselves...etc.


Okay then. Get thee to the next astrophysics conference and offer up a paper. Quite frankly, on the surface, your theory sounds not much different from some of the musings of the world's top physicists. However, the one thing they have on their side is the actual math that expresses what they propose.

Good luck and have fun.
 Vancer
Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 57
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 5/6/2009 6:37:18 PM
stargazer1000, don't all mathematical expressions of existence point out that properties can only be transfered in balancing steps, rather than outright moved.
I don't believe math allows one to just pluck out and move values across that big old = sign.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 58
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 5/7/2009 7:42:53 AM
Think of it this way: the universe is a large a balloon being blown up by a nondenominational deity. Someday, it will burst.

If the big bang theory is correct, the universe has expanded many times, reaching its "potential" and then imploding. Maybe there are many universes out there, exploding, expanding, imploding on a regular basis.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 59
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 5/7/2009 10:35:23 AM
^^^^

Exactly. If infinity exists, the universe will reform itself an infinite number of time.
 farceur
Joined: 5/3/2009
Msg: 60
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 5/7/2009 6:34:35 PM
The universe is expanding by more things happening. The more things that happen, the bigger it gets. Each thing that happens increases the size of the universe by the amount of that thing happening. Before anything happened, there was no universe. Then, one thing led to another and now all kinds of things have happened since, are happening and will continue to happen. To know how things happen at all is another question. But this is how the universe expands. There needs to be someplace for things to happen. And just to add to how freaky it is, when something remains as it is, that counts as something else that is happening. You can see there needs to be a lot of expansion to accommodate all the happenings. If less things ever happen, the universe will shrink accordingly.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 61
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 5/7/2009 8:24:21 PM

Before anything happened, there was no universe.


Wait, wait, wait . . . before anything was happening? I don't buy into a time before something was happening.
 chrono1985
Joined: 11/20/2004
Msg: 62
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 5/8/2009 3:35:38 AM

The universe is expanding by more things happening. The more things that happen, the bigger it gets. Each thing that happens increases the size of the universe by the amount of that thing happening. Before anything happened, there was no universe. Then, one thing led to another and now all kinds of things have happened since, are happening and will continue to happen. To know how things happen at all is another question. But this is how the universe expands. There needs to be someplace for things to happen. And just to add to how freaky it is, when something remains as it is, that counts as something else that is happening. You can see there needs to be a lot of expansion to accommodate all the happenings. If less things ever happen, the universe will shrink accordingly.


This is such a beautiful way to put it and the reason why Douglas Adams chose 42 to be the answer to life, the universe, and everything. Imagine 42, now image 2 didn't exist, now the 4 didn't exist, keep moving like that. It's what the whole you perform an action but you also didn't at the same time, you can start with something as simple as 1 + 1 = 2 and form a completely never ending cycle of expansion through such a system. There does come a point where it reaches, for lack of better understanding, what I heard it called in a popular anime: "The Limit of Questions", or as we may better understand it "The End of the Universe" or "The Sum of Knowledge"; I'm sure everyone's heard or came up with at least one incarnation of it, seems to be ingrained in our very being.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 63
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 5/10/2009 10:26:03 PM

If the big bang theory is correct, the universe has expanded many times, reaching its "potential" and then imploding. Maybe there are many universes out there, exploding, expanding, imploding on a regular basis.


The evidence indicates there is nowhere near enough matter to close the universe. The only real question is whether the universe will expand asymtotically or whether it will expand rapidly enough to end in the ``big rip'' as it's called. The evididence points toward the latter. The problem is that you are trying to think that the concept of time and ``now'' means anything beyond the universe. It doesn't.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 64
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 5/10/2009 10:35:31 PM
You are awrae the most powerful microscopes can see atoms right? There have been pictures of atoms in various recent scientific journals.

I am aware that there are computer reconstructions of data obtained from atomic force microscopes, but you certainly cannot ``see'' an atom in the ordinary meaning of the word ``see.'' The shortest wavelength of visible light is around 4000 A. An atom is much smaller.


You probably mean that the nucleus of an atom is just a theory.

No, I mean the atom is a theory. Do you actually have a photograph of an electron in an orbital. No. That would be rather difficult, since the electron is known to have an upper limit on its radius of less than 10^-17 meters.

This is because we can't actually see the nucleus of the atom as it is completely enshrouded in an electron cloud. However we know it exists because energy passed through that electron cloud mostly passes through. However there is a small point in the center where it is bounced back.

I'm a nuclear physicist and I spent years doing just that and writing papers about it.
 abelian
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 65
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 5/10/2009 10:39:41 PM

I don't believe math allows one to just pluck out and move values across that big old = sign.


Huh? Why not? That's simple algebra:

A + B = C
A + B - A = C - A
B = C - A
 Vancer
Joined: 10/29/2006
Msg: 66
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 5/11/2009 12:19:01 AM
Huh? Why not? That's simple algebra:

A + B = C
A + B - A = C - A
B = C - A


Do my communication skills suck that bad.
I guess I need to think harder on how I should word something.

I should have just posted an example like you did.
Thanks for helping to show what I was trying to say.
I'm not even sure anymore that what I meant back there, was really relevant to what I was responding to anyway.
 Island home
Joined: 7/5/2009
Msg: 67
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 12/12/2009 5:07:49 AM
All time happened at once any time that has happened since has happened within that time hence the universe is expanding
Obviously the universe is expanding into non existence

Hence as always the end is nigh
 rxqu33n.
Joined: 7/15/2009
Msg: 68
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 1/18/2010 1:57:19 AM
The Steady State Theory (which has replaced The Big Bang Theory in regards to how the universe began) states that the universe started as a tiny pocket of space until something (whether that something be based on science or religion, you choose) caused it to start expanding at a constant steady rate, thus making the universe infinite .. it has no edge and will never stop growing. Also, we don't know for sure that there's only ONE existance .. the Hubble Ultra Deep Field is located in the deepest area of space to us (near the constellation Fornax) and it managed to take a picture of it's surroundings .. in this area of space the picture shows more than 10 000 galaxies other than our own! Whose to say life does not exist in any of those galaxies? =]
 RocketMan_Len
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 69
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 1/18/2010 2:33:06 AM
^^^^^

Better check your facts...

1 - the Steady-State Theory has *not* replaced the Big Bang in regards to the beginning of the universe. Quite the contrary - continuing observations tend to support the Big Bang event.

2 - the Universe is *not* expanding at a constant steady rate... measurements indicate that the rate of expansion is accelerating.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 70
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 1/18/2010 5:21:56 AM

When we look deep into space we are ‘looking back into time’. 13 billion years I think, now the further we look the faster we see the acceleration. OK, but surely that has to be switched on a time graph. Plotting acceleration with the age of the universe shows it slowing down over time not accelerating. If we could view the whole universe all in the same time frame what would we see? I mean the edge of the visible universe some 13 billion years ago is expanding beyond the speed of light…but what is it doing today? The universe isn’t expanding around us here on earth right now, is it the same in every point in the universe just that the information hasn’t got to us, and why aren’t the stars moving apart across the plane of view, surely the expansion should be 3 dimensional? And not just in the line of sight.


I can try...

When you look further out into the universe, you are looking closer and closer to the "beginning." Galaxies appear less organized, smaller and more of them. Incidentally, distance is measured by "redshift." The further away a galaxy is, the redder the galaxy appears due to the doppler effect.

Conversely, of course, nearer galaxies are less red shifted and more organized.

What's happening at the "edge" of the universe? No one knows. Essentially, the earliest moments of the big bang - that moment of inflation in which the universe expanded faster than the speed of light - likely set the geometry of the universe and thus is beyond our visible horizon.

Our current understanding of the accelerated expansion of the universe results from studies involving Type 1A supernovae. They are a "standard candle" for cosmic distances since their particular mechanism allows them to brighten to a standard brightness. Kind of like using a 100W lightbulb to judge distance in a football field. Now this tells us that, taking all other considerations into account, then galaxies at certain redshifts should have Type 1A supernovae at a certain brightness. However, it was discovered that they were actually dimmer than they should be. And that the distribution was not the expected power-over-time distribution but showed a sharp increase several billion years after the big bang (as denoted by the CMB, by the way).

In answer to your question, yes, the universe is expanding around us even now. And studies done take samples from all over the sky so basically in all four dimensions. What is not known (but is theorized) is what is causing that expansion to accelerate. Also what is not known is the final fate of our universe, although that too is theorized. As for what the universe is expanding "into," again, not known. It's not an illegitimate question. It's just not clear how we would be able to observe it.

Locally, gravity still holds sway. So gravity still holds our galaxy together and even pulls together the local group. However, on cosmological scales, the average expansion direction is outward.

Hope that clears it up.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 71
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 1/18/2010 6:24:49 AM

What I am after is an explanation of how you know 13 billion light years away/ago that the universe is not only still expanding but accelerating when that information hasn’t got here yet?


Well, the fact that the information hasn't reached us yet is one reason.

Furthermore, the fact that you're looking further out into the universe means you're also looking "backward" in time. And the fact that cosmologists have discovered that the more contemporaneous galaxies within, for instance, the nearest 50 million light years is moving faster than galaxies in the past, say 3 billion years after the big bang.


Just because it was expanding faster in the past doesn’t mean that it is expanding anymore. Look at the facts, early universe, fast expansion, the older it gets the slower the expansion rate…so why say that it is getting faster?


That's not a fact, that's an assumption. Again, the evidence indicates that, in fact that the expansion has speeded up (independently verified by different teams of cosmologists, by the way). The evidence is the redshift detected from Type 1A supernovae being dimmer than they should be. Why it's expanding faster is an area of investigation.


Ok if I was born on a planet 13 billion light years away (still inside this big bang) and looked deep into space at where Earth should be, would I see expansion of the universe faster than the speed of light, if I can why can’t I see Andromeda flying away from us near to the speed of light now on Earth?


If the expansion was occurring faster than the speed of light, then you wouldn't be able to see anything. It would be outside your visual range.

As for Andromeda, it's part of the local group and only 2 million light years away and actually getting closer. Again, in the local group, distances are close enough that cosmological expansion is overcome by local gravity. However, looking beyond the local group and cosmological expansion is the primary thing you're going to observe.


Conversely when on the planet, are all the other planets rushing away from me faster than the speed of light or will there be no expansion except over distance/time away from me? If so is this the same at every point instantaneously across the universe? In which case the universe is not expanding today but was in the past.


All the other planets in our solar system? No. All the other planet in our galaxy? No, but we're not directly observing those planets. We're directly observing their stars. And they're bound to our galaxy by its combined gravity.

Does the universe exist contemporaneously to us? Of course. However, we're constrained on the information we can get about it by the speed of light. Even the information from your computer screen is delayed by a femtosecond or two. And the observations to date indicate that the universe not only continues to expand but has accelerated.

Is it possible that all expansion of the universe has stopped? Hypothetically. But look at the problem with that. Something would have to act to stop all expansion that, at one point speeded up, all at once. Or, at the very least, move across the universe at the speed of light, since that is the fundamental speed constraint within our universe. But since we have no observational evidence for such a force, and there would be evidence of it, unless is started in the past million years, it would be pure conjecture. A "what if" thing.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 72
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 1/18/2010 6:46:12 AM

What is happening 13 billion light years away (distance) NOW? Not 13 billion years ago but today?


Okay, and I'll try and answer as simply as possible.

Specifically? Likely the same kinds of things that are happening right now. Because the laws of the universe are, well, universal. So if you could somehow sidestep that pesky whole "nothing travels faster than light" rule, you would likely see galaxies and planets much as they would appear. However, since it's 13 billion light years away, we can't view "now" there. We can only observe "then" there.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 73
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 1/18/2010 6:52:57 AM
13 billion light years ago (time) the universe was expanding near to the speed of light.

...or perhaps much faster.

What is happening 13 billion light years away (distance) NOW? Not 13 billion years ago but today?

It's impossible to know...the information won't reach here for 13 billion years....I'll probably be retired by then and more concerned about the expansion of my gut.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 74
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 1/18/2010 6:56:23 AM

Exactly, so how can you claim that the universe is still expanding today? when all you have is information from the past.


Conversely and hypothetically, how can one propose the universe isn't still expanding since you haven't seen any evidence for it having stopped? Additionally, since we already have evidence for expansion occurring, can you come up with a reasonably plausible mechanism for it stopping?
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 75
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 1/18/2010 7:24:40 AM

Exactly, you cannot say either way, only by making observations on what is going on around you today can you say. All we can say is that as universal time goes by the rate of expansion gets smaller or as you look back in time so it gets faster.


So what you're seeing is that we're not seeing the effects of the big bang "now" so...what? All cosmological scale structures in the universe have stopped expanding why? How? Without actual observational evidence to back that conjecture, that's all it is. Conjecture.

You see, the power graph shows an acceleration at a point AFTER the big bang. So, at some point, something in the universe hit the accelerator pedal. Consequently, the overall evolution of the universe is expansion from a single event, accelerating to close to present day...or at least within the last 10 million years or so. Again, without actual observational evidence to the contrary, then it really is a non-issue.

Also, to further boggle the mind, the actual expansion of the universe in the first few nanoseconds actually exceeded the speed of light and may even be continuing. Again, not a violation of the laws of physics for within the universe since it is the entire universe we're talking about.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 76
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 1/18/2010 7:45:49 AM

What? not sure if I understand what you just said. We can see the big bang now as it happened 13 billion light years ago because we are 13 billion light years away (in fact at any point in the universe we would be 13 billion light years away, hence a singularity). So what, well it shows the universe expansion is slowing down, if it was accelerating then the hubble constant would have a - sign in front of it and as the universe started off at +SoL accelerating would give up a reading of?


Um...no.

You are missing a significant point, specifically, that the acceleration began AFTER the big bang. So, in fact, the evidence is quite the opposite of what you're proposing. And, since this is from the cosmologists themselves, I'm going to take their word on it.

Unless you've actually had some telescope time on Keck, Gemini or the Hubble you haven't told us about. And have some actual observations that you'd like to share. Otherwise, as far as I can tell, you're playing word games to justify a notion that you like over the actual science. Nothing more.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 77
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 1/18/2010 8:04:08 AM

This is the whole point, where are you getting that it is accelerating


Ask a cosmologist. They have better data. However, since the cosmologists doing the science say that evidence exists for an accelerating universe, I'll go with it.

Hey, this seems to be your opportunity to prove your point. You're the one insisting the universe is slowing down. Why don't you fill in those numbers to prove your point?


there was nothing before the big bang!?!


That's a separate question.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 78
how is the universe expanding?
Posted: 1/18/2010 8:32:47 AM

Actually NO, all I was asking was can anyone explain how they come to the conclusion that the universe is accelerating. If they can then I all well and good, so far, not so good. I am not insisting that it is slowing down, just want to know how people come to the conclusion that it is accelerating. If there's plenty of evidence at least throw me a bone here.


Or is it that you don't understand how the evidence was derived? Because I tried to explain it with the references to Type 1A supernovae which is the phenomenon was observed.


So why mention it then? significant point you said?


I don't recall mentioning no "before" but if you can give me the direct quote, I'll certainly try to address it.
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