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 AUTHOR
 traci1963
Joined: 6/1/2009
Msg: 1026
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History
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or ParenthoodPage 10 of 49    (9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49)
Well i believe that with all actions come consequences and is it now LEGAL TO MURDER??????????????????????????????????????????
 astock
Joined: 6/25/2009
Msg: 1027
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/29/2009 8:00:57 AM

asock, is here because he is bored while his kids are at his mom's? Then why the h ell isn't he over at his mom's with the kids?


asock as you call me has had the kids day and night for 3 weeks now, asock finally got a break
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 1031
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History
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/29/2009 8:24:10 PM
tempted like eve wrote:

well, you gave your opinion and like wise i can give mine, regardless of how many times its been posted. thats why they created these forums right? right.

Opinions are fine - but don't say that "the mother suffers" as if it were true all the time, when it isn't. Don't say the unborn baby suffers, when there isn't any neurological development capable of carrying pain or causing suffering. If you believe so, you are believing so in defiance of the facts.

Now if I misinterpreted, and you meant to say "On rare occasion, it is traumatizing to the mother" then I agree - and the facts agree - with you.

tempted like eve wrote:

why would someone go out of their way to re assemble miscarried babies, to present an apparent "delusion" of what abortion is. is that a fact, i mean really? that sounds ridiculous.

Propoganda. Why does ANYONE with a political agenda lie to anyone else? It may sound ridiculous, but if you go to futureshock's post #831 on page 34 of this thread, you'll see the quoted info and the links.

tempted like eve wrote:

i saw a picture of a 2nd tri baby, with its head seperated from its body, you dont think that baby suffered? it occurs in such small numbers? wow, its incredible, that the fact that it occured at all wouldnt bother you. these are babies were talking about.

I don't know if that's entirely what you saw or not, because I don't know what you saw. Did you see something on a pro-life website or film, or photo?

Further, once again, we're not talking about babies - it has not yet developed enough neurological function to survive outside of the womb even with 21st century techology, and is NOT CAPABLE of feeling pain?

tempted like eve wrote:

anyway, this is my opinion. and obviously, if your mom chose to terminate you, you wouldnt be here to give yours. dont you enjoy being alive? i sure do. i have hopes and dreams and id like to think i have a purpose. i believe the same for those babies that are killed everyday

The question is meaningless. Sure, I enjoy being alive. I also enjoy chocolate. If I was never given chocolate, never knew of its existence, never was exposed to it, I'd have no idea what I was missing - whereas now, I'd be seriously pissed off if you said I could never have chocolate again.

Same thing with living. If I were terminated while a fetus, I would have no conscious concept of having been alive, would not be capable of feeling pain, and would have no idea whatsoever that I'd been deprived of something. To wit, I would be completely, entirely unable to miss anything, and would not have suffered from it.


traci1963 wrote:

Well i believe that with all actions come consequences and is it now LEGAL TO MURDER??????????????????????????????????????????

Are you going somewhere with this? If you're implying that abortion is murder, then no, you're wrong. A fetus is not a person, and an embryo is not a person. Therefore it is still not legal to murder, no matter how you try to reframe the debate.

astock wrote:

asock as you call me has had the kids day and night for 3 weeks now, asock finally got a break

Hey, you were the one going on and on about "taking responsibility," right? So, why does someone else have to take responsibility now?
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1032
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 12:50:42 AM
To everyone going on about the questionable statistics of unknown chemical pregnancies and miscarriages:

Try using your brain's natural logical functioning. The word unknown suggests that the woman would not know about it. They cannot determine the actual percentage and MUST leave room for error because there isn't anyway to come to an actual number. There's your "duh" factor.

There is no way for a doctor to determine if you were pregnant after your hCG level has reached 0, and in the case of chemical pregnancies, hCG is usually not produced at all. They can, however, logically assume missed periods that cannot be explained by diet, exercise, stress or medications in a sexually active woman are more than likely caused by a chemical pregnancy. They cannot say for certain because not every woman is running to the bathroom to pee on a stick when her period is due.

Women who say that a doctor can tell they were pregnant after a chemical pregnancy or completed miscarriage before a period is missed or a few days late are the same ones that lie to their boyfriends about being pregnant and/or trick them into getting them pregnant. Without the presence of hCG ( some offices >5, others >1) in your blood they cannot tell if you are or were ever pregnant for that short a time period.

The misinformation on these boards is astounding. I thought that I just knew a bunch of crazy girls and women. Apparently, psycho-baby-making (and its subsequent false information) is much more rampant than I ever imagined.
 astock
Joined: 6/25/2009
Msg: 1033
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:16:24 AM

Hey, you were the one going on and on about "taking responsibility," right? So, why does someone else have to take responsibility now?


because my children equally love spending time with their grandma


Are you going somewhere with this? If you're implying that abortion is murder, then no, you're wrong. A fetus is not a person, and an embryo is not a person. Therefore it is still not legal to murder, no matter how you try to reframe the debate


then in my eyes according to your logic, if you punch a pregnant woman in the stomache, while she is carrying you will not be charged with murder if she loses the baby only simple assult. interesting you should be a defense lawyer
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1034
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 7:04:38 AM


then in my eyes according to your logic, if you punch a pregnant woman in the stomache, while she is carrying you will not be charged with murder if she loses the baby only simple assult. interesting you should be a defense lawyer


Actually, it is not legally murder unless the baby is born alive and then dies because of the assault.

-
In State v. Courchesne, the court considered whether someone could be charged with murder of an infant when the child suffered injuries before birth and then lived for 42 days before dying (46 Conn. Sup. 63 (1999)). The court discussed the Anonymous case and concluded that the murder statute applies to the killing of a “person,” which includes those who are born and are alive.

The court then discussed the common law “born alive” rule. Under this rule, the death of a fetus could be the basis for a murder charge if the fetus was born alive and later died of prenatal injuries. The court discussed Connecticut’s statutory scheme and found that the “born alive” rule applied. The court ruled that the infant in this case was a “person” under the murder statutes and the state could charge the defendant with murder.

The court also discussed the intent required under the murder statute. It stated that a person who acts with intent to kill someone can be charged with a separate count of murder for each person actually killed by his conduct. In this case, the defendant’s intent to kill the mother could transfer to the child as well, as long as the child was born and lived a sufficient time so as not to be stillborn.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1037
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 7:31:10 AM
Anytime after the 5th month of pregnancy the law, according to some local lawyers I have talked to b4, sees the fetus as human. So therfore can be charged for murder if the baby doesn't make it to birth. It all depends on where u live.


Which lawyers gave you this information, and why were you seeking it?

The Born-Alive Infants Protection Act is part of FEDERAL law. It does not vary state to state. It is a big part of why Roe v. Wade ended in such a landmark decision of making abortion a fundamental right.

 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1038
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 7:38:06 AM


You are right that doctors cannot tell if you are pregnant, etc., but that is not how it was determined that so many embryos were dying before birth. It was scientific research over many, many years in which women who were trying to conceive were watched carefully, their periods were "autopsied" to see if an embryo, (whatever stage after fertilization) was there.


I am aware of that information, I wasn't arguing that you were wrong. I was saying that they cannot officially conclude that all sexually active women have had a miscarriage or chemical pregnancy because not every sexually active woman is being studied or taking pregnancy tests when her period is due.
 Koolaidsmilegurl
Joined: 6/24/2009
Msg: 1041
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 11:32:31 AM
easy for man to say ! lol well i did not want an abortion and it wasnt 4 me beside i love my son to death !
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 1043
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 12:44:50 PM

honestly, its offensive that someone would refer to living beings as poptarts. especially an unborn child.


I just lost what little faith in humanity I had left.

From now on, I will not just avoid dating single mothers, but avoid them altogether in case stupidity and lack of a sense of humor is contagious.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1045
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 1:38:45 PM


Actually bosoxfan, you are misinformed. In some cases, the killing of UNBORN children can result in murder charges. Look at the Scott Peterson case. He killed his wife Lacie Peterson while she was 7 1/2 months pregnant with their child, Connor. Scott was charged with DOUBLE murder (1st degree murder for his wife and 2nd degree murder for their unborn child) Yes, it can legally happen... and Scott is currently on death row.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laci_Peterson



I have not been "informed" of anything, so I do not know what I have been misinformed about. I read. Wikipedia is not a source of good information. Have you ever noticed the little "edit" link?

You are really reaching. This is not the same as abortion by assault. Also, the codes in California specifically state a fetus, in this case separate, from a human being. Also, it has to be medically considered a fetus, not an embryo or zygote.

California enacted its fetal homicide law in 1970. Penal Code § 187 (a) states: "Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought."

Subsection (3) of section 187 provides an exemption if "[t]he act was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the mother of the fetus."

Scott Peterson intended to end the life of Laci Peterson, which would result in killing the unborn child, without the mother's consent or help, so it was considered murder in the second degree.

This is not the first case like this since 1970, it is just the most publicized.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1046
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 1:40:38 PM


From now on, I will not just avoid dating single mothers, but avoid them altogether in case stupidity and lack of a sense of humor is contagious.

Pfft! I will avoid all poptart eaters!
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 1047
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History
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 2:00:54 PM
astock:
In post 1062 I asked a series of questions. In 1073 you quoted those questions, but never really answered them.

You spew opinion and evade pretty well, but you don't seem to deal with facts so smoothly.

Further, when you then go on and try to make a point with something I was addressing that SOMEONE ELSE posted - you take it completely out of context. traci1963 posted that murder is legal - I pointed out why it isn't. In fact, even the laws you try to grasp at don't state that it's murder, do they?

In any case, sticking to what you originally posted - I'm dying to know how you came to the conclusions you did, and if you can answer my 4 questions. If they're just opinion, fine, no problem, just don't treat them like they're facts set in stone.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 1049
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 2:18:09 PM

Pfft! I will avoid all poptart eaters!


You know you cannot resist my ninja skills.

Girls like guys with skills.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 1051
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 2:28:39 PM
Abortion is awesome.

I do abortion for fun sometimes with coathangars and baseball bats pro-bono.

Gets the juices going in the morning - like coffee.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1054
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 2:40:44 PM

Box, u said earlier that a child HAS TO BE BORN ALIVE to be charged for murder... now you were proven wrong, you change your answer... after the 5th month, the embryo is then called a fetus. Its like I said earlier.


I said that abortion by assault is not murder. You are talking about premeditated murder of a pregnant woman in the state of California. Assault* resulting in a spontaneous abortion is not considered murder.

I believe the 47th day of gestation is considered to be the first day an embryo becomes a fetus.

*Since you are unclear of how this differs from murder in the first degree, here is a legal definition:

A crime that occurs when one person tries to physically harm another in a way that makes the person under attack feel immediately threatened. Actual physical contact is not necessary; threatening gestures that would alarm any reasonable person can constitute an assault.

You also have completely missed the purpose of this debate, which is very sad. The point is that an unborn baby is not considered to be a person. Even the argument that Scott Peterson was found guilty of murder in the second degree of his unborn baby is based on that same fact. They added "fetus" to the penal code section 187 to include premeditated murder of potential life.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1055
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 2:42:15 PM

LOL! I throw poptarts out of my car window on the highway when I'm going 80 mph!


I like to buy up all the boxes of poptarts from every local grocer and until they sellout on amazon.com and then incinerate them in a bonfire.

The bubbling filling inside of those cardboard shells really gets me going.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1057
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 3:05:46 PM


ROFL!! OK you win!!! You have the sickest mind when it comes to poptart torture.


My mother didn't love me enough. ::sob::

I'm just so angry with the poptarts she loved more than me.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 1058
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 3:26:29 PM

My mother didn't love me enough. ::sob::

I'm just so angry with the poptarts she loved more than me.


Your mother had poptarts AND a little girl?

That's just wrong.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1060
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:55:15 PM


Your mother had poptarts AND a little girl?

That's just wrong.


She married a man with poptarts from a previous relationship.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1061
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 6:56:14 PM


I had a 7 week ultrasound and saw my daughters spinal cord, heartbeat, and little club like-hands and feet and two inch long body that resemled a little shrimp.
Could have aborted then, but she looked a lot like a person (shrimp-person anyways) to me.

I call it her first baby picture. She gives me the roll-eye and emberresment sigh and talk to the hand flip when i pull that baby shrimp with a spinal cord and heartbeat photo out to show people.


Wow, all I could see was a flashing light :/
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1065
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/30/2009 8:33:10 PM

so yeah i think unborn babies are just as human as a already born child.


Being human is not the same as being a person [the personality of a human being : self; one (as a human being, a partnership, or a corporation) that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties].
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1068
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/1/2009 7:02:34 AM


I believe so as well sweetguy.
Thats why i did not abort my partnership corporation shrimp-person.


I didn't have an abortion either, but that's because I believe it is wrong for myself.

I wish people would stop pushing their beliefs onto other people.

Abortion is not murder, and so far people have tried to argue that it is murder in the eyes of God and proved wrong, or that it is murder in the technicalities of the law and been proved wrong.

Nobody should have to listen to any of you go on about how abortion is murder. Having a child that you cannot care for affects so many lives, including the person you raise. Many of you have done and are doing a fine job, but there are so many men and women who aren't. There are women who live in secret regret after having been forced by their families to believe that abortion is murder, when it is a basic human right of a woman.

No, not everyone can or will do it. If a woman believes that is the best outcome for herself, and that she cannot handle or afford being a parent, why should she have people like so many of you going on and on about how she's a murderer? It's sad that so many self-righteous people with their distorted views being passed as truths don't consider that children born into those situations and how much they could suffer if a mom has a child she doesn't want.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1071
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/1/2009 7:40:49 AM


Box, so ur saying ASSAULT isn't enough to make someone feel like their life is in danger????? If so, then you have some messed up view. An assault can make someone feel threatened. Especially a pregnant woman. And a fetus, does count as a person. The fetus is a LIVING person inside the woman. So therefore, it can be considered murder if some assaulted the woman causing her to lose the baby. I have not missed the point of this thread. He assaulted her and killed her. It doesn't matter whether it was pre-meditated or spontaneous. He still ASSAULTED her therefore killing her and her unborn child. Im am not unclear of anything.


I think you need to re-read thoroughly what I typed.

The legal definition of assault includes feeling threatened. It is also not my view. It is the legal definition of assault. Spontaneous abortion is another name for miscarriage. A fetus is not a living person. It is a living fetus. The statute in California that allowed him to be convicted of murdering their unborn son specifically states, "Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought." These are all facts.

It does matter that it was premeditated. The definition of malice aforethought for murder is the presence of mens rea (Latin for "guilty mind") which must accompany the actus reus of death. In simpler terms, the person who ends the life of another had to have the knowledge that his actions would result in the death of the other person or fetus.

Assault is not the same as murder. Assault is not the same as battery. Assault is not the same as attempted murder. There are specific legal definitions for each of these.

I have a high level of tolerance for people who do not read enough and do not know what they are talking about, but you are really pushing it. The fact that you call my informing you of the laws and legal definitions my "view" is just downright ignorant.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1072
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/1/2009 7:47:31 AM
lss145:

Not everyone views being pregnant as a miracle. Most of us know what is involved in the different types of abortions available. Not only because some of us have considered it or been through it, but because we read and want to be knowledgeable. Some women may have the procedure done not knowing what is involved in the abortion they follow through with, and if you want to make a difference start counseling at a clinic that performs abortion to make sure all the women are fully informed and can handle the abortion and the stress that could come afterward.

There are also plenty of women who have had abortions that do not feel the way you describe post-abortion.

Not every woman that gets pregnant should be having a child. There are so many women (single or not) that neglect their children and they grow up at a huge disadvantage for that fact.

You forgot that adoption is another option.
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