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Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1075
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or ParenthoodPage 11 of 49    (9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49)

Where did I say that assault is the same as murder, battery, etc???? Nowhere!!!! Im not challenging ur views. The laws in california alone are not the same as every d*mn law in the state. I didn't call any of your views or whatever you please to call it names, so don't call mine ignorant.

Here is what you said:

And a fetus, does count as a person. The fetus is a LIVING person inside the woman. So therefore, it can be considered murder if some assaulted the woman causing her to lose the baby. I have not missed the point of this thread. He assaulted her and killed her. It doesn't matter whether it was pre-meditated or spontaneous. He still ASSAULTED her therefore killing her and her unborn child.

Everything in this statement is incorrect by definition.

you have some messed up view.

I corrected you. I have not stated my opinions at all, I am just telling you what the law in California has been revised to include. The legal definitions of the terms I described are not varying from state to state. Each state has amended the law to include and exclude various circumstances. California is one that has added the word fetus to the murder statute.

I have not found a case of assault on a pregnant woman, causing a miscarriage, that resulted in murder charges. I have a personal experience with somebody trying to file charges against someone in a car accident for vehicular homicide against her unborn child. The charges were thrown out almost immediately. The driver of the other vehicle had a blood alcohol level that was twice the legal limit, and he was driving into oncoming traffic.

I said it was ignorant to call my informing you of definitions and statutes my view. I did not call you ignorant.

If I wanted to be rude, I would recommend you take a reading comprehension class, but I won't do that either.
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1077
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/1/2009 12:51:43 PM

Looks like u are the one in need of reading comprehension classes. I said that it can be considered murder if someone assaulted her.... not the same as murder is assault. As well as I didn't say you called me ignorant.

I didn't say you needed them. I said I wouldn't say that.

And again, it is not considered murder if someone assaults a woman and she has a miscarriage, and until you find a case that proves otherwise, I will stand by that.

If someone violently attacks a person (not fetus) without intending to kill them, but they die, they are usually charged with involuntary manslaughter. Again, not assault.

I misread "mine" as "me". Either way, I didn't call your views ignorant either. I'm not going to repeat myself.
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1078
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/1/2009 12:52:33 PM

We have a current case here in Oregon of a female cutting a nearly full term baby ( I am not sure how many weeks) from another womans body. Under Oregon law she can only be accused of murder of the mother, not the child.

Thank you for that example, Opie.
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1079
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/1/2009 1:07:43 PM

Welcome Bosox, I think the law has something to do with proving the child had taken it's 1st breath..

The Born-Alive Infants Protection Act was the same Act that prevented my friend from pressing vehicular manslaughter charges against the drunk driver in her case. All the other cases I've read about had the same ruling due to that act in some way.

The only cases that have resulted in Murder charges of a fetus, that I can find, have been premeditated and in states that have had their Murder statutes amended to include the word "Fetus".
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1084
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/1/2009 8:29:57 PM

First off, Im not sure as to why you keep referring to the Infant Born Alive Protection Act when discussing whether causing a miscarriage can lead to criminal penalty. The Born Alive Act was enacted to protect infants when they survive an abortion and it requires that they receive medical attention instead of being "left to die."

I was referring to that act because it has been used in several cases to drop murder charges due to assault on a pregnant woman.

I find it funny that people can imply others are ignorant when they themselves haven't completely researched the evidence before presenting their "opinions" as "facts."

I didn't call anyone ignorant. I said that calling the legal definition of assault my view was ignorant. This is also not my opinion. I haven't stated my opinions at all.

I also said on numerous occasions that I couldn't find any cases. I didn't say there weren't any. I alluded that there may be, as I haven't done research in EVERY state. What I said were facts are facts. I said numerous times, "In California".

Furthermore, the whole purpose of this argument was to say whether or not a fetus is considered a person to decide whether or not abortion is legally murder. It isn't. If you go to another page on the National Right to Life Committee's site, you will find the actual homicide laws. I haven't read every single one listed below, but they offer protection against abortion. I know Missouri has outlawed partial abortions, though, and leaves no room for the well-being of the mother, even if she could die if she continues the pregnancy.

The statutes have been amended to include "fetus", "embryo" or "unborn child" and ONLY for the violent crimes in those sections.

Next, not all of the states you list cover abortion by assault. Some of the states do, such as Alabama, 13A-6-1 Code of Alabama (c) A victim of domestic violence or sexual assault may not be charged under Article 1 or Article 2 for the injury or death of an unborn child caused by a crime of domestic violence or rape perpetrated upon her.

The Laci and Conner's Act says this:

`(i) the person engaging in the conduct had knowledge or should have had knowledge that the victim of the underlying offense was pregnant; or

`(ii) the defendant intended to cause the death of, or bodily injury to, the unborn child.

Again, premeditated is a requirement. Like I said, numerous times.

My guess, though, is that a good lawyer would show how difficult it is to prove that a person assaulting someone can beyond a reasonable doubt cause a miscarriage. I know plenty of women that have miscarried and asked if it was because they fell, or got in a car accident, or whatever and their doctors' have said to them, "There's just no way to tell if they two are related."

Final verdict: abortion is not murder legally or by what the Bible says. Except for Missouri residents getting or needing a partial abortion.
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 1086
view profile
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/1/2009 10:42:06 PM
lss145 wrote:

do any of you guys have any idea what an abortion actually is?

Yes. I'm not entirely sure you do, though.

The "shrimp-like" form doesn't actually have that form until about 11 or 12 weeks into it. From what I'm given to understand, they can't even perform any sort of surgical method of abortion (including suction) prior to about 4 or 5 weeks simply because they can't find it.

The potential complications you mention for abortion are already noted, several times in this thread, with links, as being fictions.

What you state about the hormone levels is likewise problematic, factually speaking. Your hormone levels that early in a pregnancy are not nearly what they are at the end of a pregnancy - your body does NOT store the total amount of hormones you'll need during the pregnancy and gradually release them over the course of 9 months . . nor does it release 9 months of hormones all at once if you get an abortion. In fact, the hormone drop is MUCH LESS severe after an abortion because your body has not had 9 months worth of continually, gradually increasing levels of hormones.

Your chance of depression does NOT increase - that ALSO has been covered by previous posts in this thread.

There is nothing miraculous about conception - it happens ALL the time . . it's one of the most commonplace things that happens - as evidenced by the over 6 billion people who CURRENTLY exist on the planet, the countless others who previously lived, and all the mammalian creatures who are alive and have ever lived. And if it can happen so accidentally, how can it be miraculous?

Cost you your life or your womanhood? Either you're trying to shovel the anti-abortion groups' propaganda on us, or have been fooled yourself. Those risks are no greater for someone getting an abortion than they are for someone brushing their teeth.

You're right, by the way - there ARE plenty of images for abortion - some of them are accurate, and some of them are deliberately falsified to make abortion seem far more horrific than it is.
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1091
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/2/2009 5:45:49 AM

If you look at this website that I previously posted ( you would see that a man from Texas was convicted of 2 capital murder charges when he stomped on his gf's abdomen which resulted in her miscarrying twins.

I don't see why you are reposting this? This case is ridiculous.

"Basoria decided when she was four months pregnant that she wanted an abortion. When she couldn't get one, Flores hesitantly agreed to press his 175-pound frame on her belly."

"When Basoria began spotting a week before she miscarried, she went to the doctor. The doctor determined the babies were fine and didn't note any bruising on Basoria's abdomen or elsewhere, Bauereiss said. There was a notation on the medical record, however, that Basoria had asked about an abortion and was told she was too far along.

Basoria miscarried on May 7, 2004. A pathologist, who did an autopsy on the twins, determined they had been dead for at least 24 hours when they slipped from Basoria's body into a toilet at Flores' home.

Deaton acknowledges Flores and Basoria argued in the hours before she miscarried about him arriving home late, and Flores hit her. But, he points to Basoria's affidavit in which she says Flores had not physically abused her, and the autopsy's conclusion that the fetuses were dead a day earlier.

"So it is really irrelevant," he said. "

The act was premeditated, which is something I already pointed out about The Unborn Victims of Violence Act. It's in place to give justice to would-have-been-mothers whose babies were targeted by intentional violent crime without their consent. Pointing to that Texas case is not really a good idea, since the mother was involved, and they could never determine when the standing on her belly occurred. He was convicted based on lies.

quite a few of them do and some even refer to an embryo or fetus as a "person"

If you read the actual codes, not just the summary in that list, the word PERSON's legal definition for that statute has been amended to include "fetus", "zygote", "embryo" or "unborn child" for these crimes specifically.

If a baby is unwanted and aborted then there are no ramifications. I'm sure a lot of women who were pregnant with a wanted baby, had the nursery done, and a name picked out are completely devastated when someone ends their unborn child's life through assault, or MVA, etc. On the other hand, I'm sure a lot of women are devastated when people accuse them of being murderers when they decide to have an abortion.

I feel like I am going in circles. We are right back to where we started. Legally speaking, abortion is not murder. It is protected by the law. I don't see it as a contradiction at all. Potential life can be something totally different for two different women. For one it can be a joy, a great miracle. For another it can be a costly accident, one that will ruin the woman's life.

You do not even see what you have written; it's justice for the mother, and her family. I am glad there is more justice than I researched for the mothers that this happens to. It's unfortunate that it has to be premeditated and they have to know the woman is pregnant, because women who are victims of assault by strangers or vehicular accidents and miscarry deserve as much justice as the women whose pregnancies are targeted. Women in these situations wanted to provide for this life and would have given it all the love in the world and protected the child until old age. They get justice by having the person who willfully harmed or killed their unborn charged with a crime.

A woman who doesn't want to or is incapable of providing those things also deserves justice. Having a child, especially if the pregnancy was an accident, is not something anyone should be forced into doing. She gets justice by being able to legally say, "I cannot have a child right now."
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1099
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/2/2009 12:07:35 PM

I know the case is ridiculous, but you specifically stated that people would not be charged with murder for assaulting a pregnant women which subsequently results in fetal death. I showed you a case in which it has happened.

I was being too vague then, because the woman's belly in that case was stomped on intentionally to kill the fetus, when I said that I meant death of the fetus by accident in the harming of the woman.
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1100
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/2/2009 12:08:52 PM

I'm just saying that as easy as the word abortion is to say, its not that easy to live through and with.

It is different for everyone.

Having a baby is an easy thing to say, it's not a decision that's always easy to live through and with.
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1101
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/2/2009 12:10:50 PM

my question now is why do i have a right to an opinion but not to the facts that i've personally witnessed or experienced???

Your statements are extreme and one-sided, that is why some people disregard them.
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1102
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/2/2009 12:47:28 PM

someone sticks two long needles with scapulas on the ends of them inside you after they give you a pill to induce cervical dialation and then cut the fetus or 'shrimp-like being' into small enough peices to fit through the opening of your vagina.

What's interesting is that you really have no idea what you are talking about. I wonder how my daughter fit through my cervix without being cut up into tiny pieces? When they took out my IUD when I was 11 weeks pregnant, they didn't need to cut it up into tiny pieces to make it fit either. I wonder how women have miscarriages without needing a D&C if the embryo or fetus cannot make it through the birth canal?

Up to the 7th week of pregnancy you can be administered Methotrexate in conjunction with Misoprostol to cause a spontaneous abortion. This is also used to treat ectopic pregnancies in the cervix and the fallopian tubes.

You can take RU-486 (Mifeprex) in combination with Misoprostol during the 7th-9th weeks of pregnancy to have a medical abortion.

Up to the 12th week of pregnancy you may opt to have suction curettage to terminate a pregnancy. This is a surgical abortion. You are given medication to dilate your cervix, most commonly Laminaria inserted directly into your vagina, or in some cases Pitocin orally, to ripen and dilate the cervix to prevent tearing and to make the opening to your cervix larger. If your cervix is not dilated enough, a doctor may use the smooth metal rods to widen the opening.

A tube about the diameter of a pencil is inserted and a pump is used to create a vacuum to suction out the fetus, placenta and other uterine parts. It may or may not be necessary to perform a curettage. If it is, then the physician will use a sharp, spoon-like instrument called a curette to gently scrape the walls of the uterus to prevent complications and prevent infection. This procedure is also used in incomplete miscarriages. Rate of complication due to curettage is relatively low (it is more likely you will have a complication from anesthesia), but it is important you use a reputable physician to ensure your own safety.

The hormones, cramping and bleeding will vary by how far along you are and will be similar to having a miscarriage at around the same time. The postoperative emotions you feel may or may not be similar to having a miscarriage. It depends mostly on how you feel about abortion and how you felt about being pregnant. Make certain you do what's right for yourself, and if you feel you can't handle the possible aftermath of an abortion, there is always adoption. Lots of men and women who would make wonderful parents are not blessed with the opportunity to do so.

I am not going to go into second or third trimester abortions, but there's the truth about first trimester abortions. If you are considering abortion, please talk to a medical professional, not a fanatic spouting false information.


I really want to address your cancer comment. Telling anyone that they could get cancer because of an abortion is ridiculous. Do you even know what cancer is? Do you know why a carcinogen promotes cancer? Do you know anything about cell mutation at all? Please do not run around claiming that getting your uterus scraped can be carcinogenic, because it is absolutely not true. Unless the curette is emitting some sort of radiation or you have a spontaneous cell mutation in the process of healing, you won't be getting cancer because you had a complication in your abortion.
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1104
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/2/2009 1:33:58 PM

The breast cancer comment was a joke, right?
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1107
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/2/2009 1:44:24 PM
Technically speaking, there are many things that can cause many "bad" mutations in a cell's DNA that controls oncogenes and tumor suppressors (these control cell growth). These cells grow uncontrollably if the mutation occurs and multiply and continue to spread to various related parts of the body. DNA repair genes, if mutated, cause a disruption in a cell because it can no longer correct mistakes in the DNA it is replicating. This indirectly causes cancer. DNA mutations are random, but there are a few lists of known, reasonably thought and possible carcinogens. Some things are in a lot of the products and medications you use everyday, some are only carcinogens when mixed with certain things.
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1109
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/2/2009 1:51:51 PM
I volunteered at The Hutch in Seattle, and worked on the Human Genome Project, so I am fairly well educated on what cancer is. What known carcinogens are, and the lessor groups.

I didn't say you were likely to get cancer from an abortion; in fact I refuted what she said above.

However, I don't think it's fair to reference "fair assumptions" that link heavy alcohol consumption in those predisposed to breast cancer in getting breast cancer. It's only casually related to cancers of the pharynx larynx and esophagus.
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1111
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/2/2009 2:15:49 PM

your daughter probably fit through your cervix the same way my son did mine. your cervix was dialated for a natural birth.

i didn't say anything about an abortion causing cancer.
i said that some of the effects an abortion could cause in a woman's body could increase the chances of cancer.

but i'm sure you can find something published to negate that.

an iud is not the same thing as a developing fetus, and comparing the two just because they are in the same place in a woman's body is ludicrous; iud's are designed to be flexible and shaped so that it's easy in/out, not requiring surgical procedures. a developing fetus is designed to stay in, not come out.

and the reason some miscarriages occur without induced dialation is because the body dialates on it's own, whether you realize it or not.

i also stated that the methods i described might not be used commonly, but please, don't tell me i don't know what i'm talking about. I've held a friend's hand and watched her undergo what i described.

i'm tired of you people trying so hard to discredit the opinions of people you don't agree with. why don't you get a damn life? this is a forum, which should be a place where different opinions and ideas should be shared and discussed, not a place where people who don't have anything else to do but sit in front of the computer all the time can get off on being right. but ya know, if you enjoy being condescending and close-minded... who am i to argue?

i'm not going to concede that my opinions and experiences are wrong, as you are so eloquently trying to prove, because they're not.

(why did it take you so long to respond to that statement in my original post? did your search engine fail while you were looking up the medications and gestation periods, or were you just concerned about making yourself sound intelligent without having to quote your sources?)

Who is discussing your opinion? I don't care what you opinion is. I get irritated when people go off and say things that don't even make sense, let alone whether they are or not true.

I was involved in another discussion and don't read all the entries between the ones I am concerned with.

I am not going do an internet search about Abortion. I do not believe in reading biased information. I have been there for friends and family experiencing deciding whether or not to have an abortion, having the abortion and how they felt afterward.

Your statement mentioned tools being used in the wrong way, and several other false things. You are not more likely to get cancer from having an abortion. Where did you get this information?

You said you can't take a pill after 21 days, that is not true. There are two forms of medical abortions currently available until the 7th and 9th weeks of pregnancy. You can call a doctor's office that performs abortions to find that much out. You do not need Google.

You make comments about the two rods, these are used to help dilate the cervix if the medications given do not dilate it enough. Not cut up an embryo or fetus. How far along was your friend?

I would like to know where this procedure you saw was performed. How could they cut up anything inside of your uterus without seeing it? This doesn't sound legal or safe, and it should be reported to the AMA immediately.

I know what dilation is, and I know it occurs during birth and miscarrying. It occurs to make room for the fetus or baby to come through the cervix. Why wouldn't there be enough room for an aborted pregnancy? My pseudo mother-in-law had to be dilated manually using the same medications and procedures that are done for an abortion, and she never technically went into labor. They had to rip open the sack, cause dilation and contractions with medications and manual techniques. Then when her son still wouldn't make his way out they had to knock her out and pull him out with forceps and a suction hose. Again, they didn't need to cut him up into little pieces so he would fit through the birth canal.

And by the way, I work on the computer, and sometimes I need external stimulus. If you can't handle being called out for posting incorrect information, then don't post anything at all.
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1114
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/2/2009 3:15:23 PM

Bosox, you reposted my statements and then responded to those statements: therefore you are discussing my opinion.

I wasn't aware you were writing a thesis.

I was under the impression you witnessed this, as you said you did. If it's just your opinion and not fact, and you wish to continue to spread false information based on your opinions, you are going to get hit head on again. Plenty of people debate with anyone willing to state their opinion; they relish in disproving someone who is basing their information off of anything not true.

if anyone is spouting off like they're medically educated in abortions its not me, i have not quoted any published information, used any type of medical terminology other than a few commonly known and used words by non-medically trained persons, nor have i claimed anyone else's posts are incorrect.

You said, "Do any of you even know what an abortion is?", then you followed that with what happens during a surgical abortion. If you did see this and this actually happened, you need to contact the AMA and report the physician.

i did not post my opinion for any other reason than to provide an insight to an issue.

You did not say it was your opinion of what an abortion is. Never mind the fact that stating medical procedures can't really be an opinion. It's either fact or fiction.

i have simply provided my own input to this forum, as i personally have witnessed or experienced. not from what i've read or heard.

If you witnessed it, how is it an opinion?

i'm not pro-life, biased, or prejudiced to any idea, or in any way, in fact i'm always open to learning new information and understanding different points of view.

Then why are you being so defensive when I'm presenting medically relevant information?

i don't have the time nor the motivation to include everything i personally know and all the information i have access to, if i did i would certainly write a book for you, since i obviously have an audience.

If you have so much knowledge about this topic, why wouldn't you use that to support your opinions, instead of wasting the little time you have spreading information that is not true?
I don't read fiction, but I can't speak for the others.

soooo......... if you sit back and take the time to realize that people have been discussing the controversy of abortion and the methods and the effects for thousands of years you might come to the conclusion that it's probably going to continue for thousands more.

Is that your opinion that it has been discussed for "thousands of years" or is that a number you got from a non-fiction text?

As far as discussing abortion, is that not what I'm doing?

and what exactly is the result you're hoping to get from continuing a disagreement with a biased, inexperienced, ignorant teenage mother?

I hope in any discussion to learn from others, and for they to learn from me.

I don't know who this person you are referencing is, but you aren't being very nice in calling them ignorant, especially since I don't even know them!
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 1116
view profile
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/3/2009 9:02:59 PM
SweetnessInTheKeys wrote:

Elvis what is your obsession with abortions? have you had one or did you get a doctorate degree from the school of wikipedia?
Have you ever actually spoke with an ob/gyn to become the expert on abortion?

I am not obsessed with abortions. What makes you say that?

Also, barring some sort of medical Twilight Zone episode, it's impossible for me to have an abortion. Putting that bit in is snide stupidity.

My "doctorate" is from the "school of wikipedia," har -de-har-har, though I've spoken with ob/gyns in the past.

babydoll127 wrote:

LOL Elvis!! I find it truly entertaining when a man comes on here and falsifies truth about pregnancy and abortion. First off, the "shrimp like appearance occurs around 6-7 weeks, not 11-12. A 12 week fetus will look remarkably human with fingers, toes, and genitalia as well as be around 2-3 inches long. Here is a link to educate yourself on embryonic and fetal development.

But are you equally entertained when women do so?

My mistake, by the way, you are right, the most "shrimp-like" appearance is around 7 weeks.

My humblest and sincerest apologies if I'm being held to the "must be 100% accurate 100% of the time," whereas it seems that SOME women on this thread and most of the pro-lifers do NOT expect nearly the same level of accuracy from those arguing the pro-life points. If I grovel enough, will I be forgiven for only being MUCH more accurate than they, rather than PERFECTLY accurate?

babydoll127 wrote:

Secondly, there is a HUGE surge of hormones during the first trimester to compensate for the enormous changes a woman's body goes through. Have you ever heard of nausea, fatigue, mood swings, and breast engorgement in newly pregnant women? Yea, didnt think so...

Oh, wow, really? Morning sickness? Mood swings? What are these things? I have never, ever heard of them before.

Now, I'm not debating that hormone levels will take a sudden upswing in a lot of women during pregnancy, even in the early stages - but the suggestion that in early-to-mid pregnancy an abortion will result in the woman having the same surge and drop in hormones as she does after giving birth is preposterous, and you know it - you're misrepresenting the point I was trying to make and you know it.

babydoll127 wrote:

Sure, women will be more likely to be more depressed if a miscarriage or stillbirth happens in the later stages of pregnancy but it's not because the woman has more hormones. It is because there is an attachment and bonding process that occurs during pregnancy which no man will ever comprehend unless you miraculously become pregnant one day..

Are these facts, speculations, or opinions? What attachment and bonding process? Does it occur in women who, even months in, didn't realize they were pregnant? Are you SURE a later termination of pregnancy (induced or naturally occurring) that causes depression is NOT because of higher hormone levels?

You're trying to have it both ways here - you're saying that an abortion causes depression because of higher hormones - but that a woman gets more depressed later if there's a miscarriage or stillbirth, but NOT because the hormones are even higher still? Is there some mysterious cutoff where the increase in hormones no longer will affect mood when there's a sudden drop?

babydoll127 wrote:

As far as abortion goes, many women do become depressed after having one. I can vouch for this personally and I can also vouch for my friends who have had one as well. The hardest part about grieving after an abortion is people like you who say, "you're not depressed, there is nothing to be depressed's only tissue...ladeedaaadeeda" I knew that I ended a life or potential life, and the only way I could forgive myself is to give my unborn child an identity and to write a letter and send it to him/her in a balloon. Call me crazy, but this is what helped me to heal and I know a lot of other women who have given their aborted fetus' identities to help them grieve (ie naming them, becoming a godparent to someone else's child, etc) As a man, you will never experience a pregnancy or abortion and for you to make assumptions about womens' mental status post abortion is ridiculous. Why don't you go ahead and google "post abortion counseling" and find the multitude of resources available to women who need it. Ever heard of supply and demand? Yea, there wouldn't be a ton of resources out there unless a ton of women requested it.

A lot? Many? Define this. It's apparently NOT enough of a percentage to be able to say that post-abortion-trauma exists.

Are you SURE that they're depressed because they had an abortion, or because they've been told that they've murdered someone or ended a life?

And what about WOMEN who agree with my views, who've had abortions?

Still, you keep falling back on "you're a man, you can never understand"

Please pay attention to the context of my comments and specifically WHAT I was responding to.

SweetnessInTheKeys wrote:

Elvis, if you wish to be an expert in pregnancy please educate yourself from actual physicians, not web links, kthxbai.

Do books count? Do sources on the web that cite books count? I'm not the one claiming ALL information found on the web is accurate, mind you - so I specifically try to find ones that cite reference material, refer to studies, etc. I can't all the time, but that's the one good thing about wikipedia - I can follow the footnotes and look for the original material.

itsallinthesoul wrote:

I cannot believe this thread is still alive and kicking....and that NotElvis is still stirring the debate that will never be "won"...

A man preaching to women on abortion is just well.....wrong......

It is a woman's choice because it is a woman's body. NotElvis, you should try to let this one do not have a say in the real world and you shouldn't.....period.

No woman has the right to tell you what to do with your body.

As for the "real facts" behind development of babies....honestly, most of what has been posted within this thread is from pro-lifers and pro-abortionists so neither is unbiased and neither is therefore likely to be scientifically factual. I'll tell you what I personally choose to believe as facts is the materials provided to me by my ob/gyn and the literature handed out to all women expecting babies.

Nobody on this planet can tell any woman how she will feel being pregnant or having an abortion, nor should anyone think they have the right to do so. That is not really a debatable topic....

Please - you should know better. At no point have I told anyone what they're supposed to feel, nor what they must do with their bodies. Do NOT fall into strawman and ad hominem attacks. You've shown that you know better, so please don't do that.

And, if you're honest, you'll realize that almost all of the "pro-abortionist" (as you like to call it) posts are generally unbiased in terms of the facts they're presenting. Can you say the same for the pro-lifers?

You are misrepresenting what I'm saying, and, frankly, I find that offensive. No, correction - I find it offensive that you're targeting me AND misrepresenting my arguments, whereas you are NOT saying anything at all about information posted on the pro-life (or at least anti-abortion) type of posts that are absurdly false, and you're perfectly aware of the falsity of those statements.

LSS145 wrote:

my question now is why do i have a right to an opinion but not to the facts that i've personally witnessed or experienced???

please let everyone know when you've had an abortion or witnessed one and the effects of it.

I'm just saying that as easy as the word abortion is to say, its not that easy to live through and with.

You're perfectly entitled to your opinon, and you're perfectly entitled to state facts, but if you state opinion AS fact, and/or state false information as fact, don't be surprised when you're called to the carpet on it. Clearly, you were NOT "just saying" that an abortion is not easy to live through. You said, among other things, that:
- if you're unlucky enough to wait more than 3 weeks from your conception date (and let me say that three weeks is 21 days, that's one whole week short of the menstruation period .28days. which missing is how most women realize they might be pregnant) and you can't just eat a pill that makes you violenty ill for 24 hours.......

FALSE: Abortion by medical means (ie: a pill) can be done within 49 days of gestational (around 35 days embryonic age). More than 21 days by a significant margin.

- someone sticks two long needles with scapulas on the ends of them inside you after they give you a pill to induce cervical dialation and then cut the fetus or 'shrimp-like being' into small enough peices to fit through the opening of your vagina. (if an abortion is done after 3 weeks of pregnancy)

FALSE: this is the 2nd most common non-medical method. The most common in the first 12 weeks (you didn't specify, so I'm guessing) is Vacuum Aspiration. Further, again, while you didn't say, during Dilation and Curettage (which it sounds like you're describing), the woman is usually under general anesthesia, whereas you, while again not saying, make it sound like a woman's awake and feeling everything during this procedure (Maybe in some cases, I wasn't able to immediately find information about those instances).

- (if there were not complications like say, the scapula cut YOU and now you have to have a hysterectomy, or maybe your cervix was traumatized and scarred so you'll have complications with your health for the rest of your life, or a larger chance of getting cancer....)

FALSE (implication): Your description makes this sound as if it were a fairly large risk. The risk for increased chance of cancer, or needing a hysterectomy, is for all intents and purposes zero (not actually zero, but close enough that it it doesn't matter). This parenthetical note of yours sounds like a line straight out of the pro-lifer brigade's propaganda pamphlets. You reinforce the exaggerated risk-implication by later stating "or do i want to have a surgical procedure that might cost me my life or my womanhood"

- afterwards ... you're body thinks you've given birth. which means all the hormones that you were supposed to be gradually getting over your pregnancy are rushing to catch up with you

FALSE: your body does NOT think you've given birth. Your hormone levels were not at late third-trimester levels - and the hormones are not all rushing to catch up (this sounds like you're saying what you would've gotten as a buildup over the course of the nine months now hits you all at once - ridiculously absurd)

And let's not forget this:

i don't think any MAN has any right to question or even form an opinion based on the decisions a woman makes about her own body.

Question it? Why not? Granted, that can only go so far, but one can question it, male or female.

Don't even have the right to form an opinion? Thank you. Why not insert probes into every male's brain that will short circuit it any time certain "unacceptable opinions" are formed.

These things belie your statement that "I'm just saying that as easy as the word abortion is to say, its not that easy to live through and with." They go infinitely beyond that.

Nobody is trying to discredit you - just objecting to misrepresentation of facts.
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1117
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/3/2009 9:25:31 PM

- someone sticks two long needles with scapulas on the ends of them inside you after they give you a pill to induce cervical dialation and then cut the fetus or 'shrimp-like being' into small enough peices to fit through the opening of your vagina. (if an abortion is done after 3 weeks of pregnancy)

FALSE: this is the 2nd most common non-medical method. The most common in the first 12 weeks (you didn't specify, so I'm guessing) is Vacuum Aspiration. Further, again, while you didn't say, during Dilation and Curettage (which it sounds like you're describing), the woman is usually under general anesthesia, whereas you, while again not saying, make it sound like a woman's awake and feeling everything during this procedure (Maybe in some cases, I wasn't able to immediately find information about those instances).

- (if there were not complications like say, the scapula cut YOU and now you have to have a hysterectomy, or maybe your cervix was traumatized and scarred so you'll have complications with your health for the rest of your life, or a larger chance of getting cancer....)

D&C's use a cannula for vacuum aspiration, they do not cut up a fetus into tiny pieces. If a fetus is 16 weeks gestation, a Dilation and Evacuation is done using a cannula and forceps to help pull the tissue out of the uterus.

The two rods she described are used to help dilate the cervix. The curette is used to gently scrape the sides of the uterus to ensure nothing is left behind. It is also used in miscarriages that are incomplete.

She isn't even describing Dilation and Evacuation, a third trimester abortion that is illegal in some states. I won't be describing it either.
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1120
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/4/2009 6:57:19 AM

I have had a first trimester miscarriage, and the following hormonal upheaval was worse than the post partum hormone drop.
Hormone levels are at the highest when pregnancy begins. The placenta doesnt ake over the corpus luteum's job of producing progesterone until around week 10.
Hormone levels peak out and then began to decline betwen weeks 8 to 12.

I have also had a first trimester miscarriage, and I was just fine two days later.

hCG hormone levels are at their highest during 13 to 16 Weeks.

To protect the fetus, the progesterone levels during pregnancy then rise to as much as 10 to 15 TIMES normal amounts by the THIRD TRIMESTER. In other words, the progesterone levels during the third trimester of pregnancy can be as much as 300mg to 400mg per day.
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 1122
view profile
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/4/2009 12:12:31 PM
sweetnessinthekeys wrote:

You appear obsessed. Thats why i say that.
Ponder it.
So you actually got up from perusing wikipedia to take the obsession one step further and talk to some real live physicians?
Im impressed.

Your personal perception, seen through your own filter, does not equal reality.

No, I didn't get up from perusing wikipedia - I talked to real live physicians years ago.

sweetnessinthekeys wrote:

I have had a first trimester miscarriage, and the following hormonal upheaval was worse than the post partum hormone drop.
Hormone levels are at the highest when pregnancy begins. The placenta doesnt ake over the corpus luteum's job of producing progesterone until around week 10.
Hormone levels peak out and then began to decline betwen weeks 8 to 12.

Maybe this happened to you in particular. There are concerns over low-hormone pregnancies, and high hormone pregnancies. And now I'm supposed to believe that, since one particular hormone peaks early, that ALL hormones involved with pregnancy do this? Not so.

sweetnessinthekeys wrote:

Exactly how do you know how many women have post-abortion trauma.

Never mind, i know, a website told you.

Are you sure they are NOT depressed over having an abortion?

Im sure you can find a handful of women who can abort a child of theirs with no feelings about it. I wont go into my opinion on that as it would be off topic and very offensive to those with differing beliefs than mine on life. However for every one of those women you find im sure you can find 10 more who did feel remorse or sadness post-abortion.

I suppose this means that your own personal experience, and the people you personally know, outweigh studies involving hundreds or thousands of women? Yes, a website told me. Yes, I suppose I could write to the appropriate government agency, pay a fee, and get a hard copy of the studies instead - because clearly, if it's on the web and disagrees with your view, it MUST be a lie, no matter what the source?

Nobody said they had NO feelings about it. What I said, and keep saying, though there's a number of people in this thread who insist in reinterpreting it to a different meaning, is that the research proves that Post Abortion Syndrome does not exist because such a tiny percentage of women experience emotional trauma over it. Saying that there's no emotional trauma is NOT the same as saying that there's no emotion whatsoever.

sweetnessinthekeys wrote:

What books exactly? I have all the books recomended by my doctors, including one my brother in law's wife wrote.
No i dont consider you an expert on pregnancy from perusing web sites, just a dude with a strange strange obsession with pregnant women that thinks google search takes the place of actual experience with pregnancy, or have studied on actual patients.

Now we're insisting on resorting to the ad hominem attack insisting that I'm strangely obsessed? I'm not going to bother to copy-paste all the footnotes and references that are already on the links that I and others have posted.

I never claimed to be an expert on pregnancy. I just don't like being lied to. I also don't like seeing other people lied to.

So, every bit of information you've provided is from people that you've PERSONALLY done research on? How many is that, exactly? What makes you think that qualifies as being able to say the same about all women everywhere?

But, once again, "he searched on THE WEB" therefore all the information must be false. This despite the fact that the searches refer to actual studies.

Oh, but he's a man posting them, therefore EVERYTHING must be biased.

sweetnessinthekeys wrote:

The hormones are lower. And yes the body can think it has given birth.
I have had one miscarriage, that is how i camke to he conclusion. From real life.
How many have youy had?

Ok, you have had one miscarriage. You are a sample size of exactly one person. Yet, even though the hormones are at MUCH different levels than they would be at the conclusion of a normal, full-term birth, you think that your own personal feelings override the actual medical evidence, and apply to everyone.

sweetnessinthekeys wrote:

yeah yeah i know you saw it on wikipedia so any woman who has like, ya know, actually HAD KIDS AND PREGNANCIES dont know anything about their bodies(Did you see the site about the latest UFO sighting?)

Are you saying that, since you've personally had pregnancies, that you know more than medically trained professionals? More than people whose specialty of study is obstetrics and gynecology?

That's like saying I have functioning eyes, therefore I know more than ophthalmologists. I had severely crooked teeth, so I know way more than the orthodontist who never had to wear braces.

Following your logic, a mentally retarded woman with the functional intellect of a 6 year old who gets raped, carries a pregnancy full term, and gives birth knows more about pregnancy and birth than any man could possibly ever know, right?

Oh, but right, again, all my sources are from the web, no matter what their ultimate origin, and I'm a man posting this - therefore it must be all wrong.

Please... you insist that your own personal experiences apply to the entire female population, and yet insist that I'm obsessed?
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 1125
view profile
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/4/2009 4:03:10 PM
itsallinthesoul wrote:

You haven't exhibited consistent compassion for any woman who has shown the other side of your arguments. (like having an abortion for some women IS emotionally devasting for them)

Irrelevant. I've never objected to anyone saying this. I have objected to women saying that having an abortion WILL BE emotionally devastating. I'm supposed to show "compassion" for women who tell other women that having an abortion absolutely, definitely will be emotionally devastating and traumatizing? I'm supposed to show "compassion" for women who say that anyone who gets an abortion runs a high risk of injury, increases their chance of getting cancer, or will make them sterile?

If telling people that they definitely will be traumatized by abortion is "the other side" of my arguments, then what's the purpose of having an intelligent discussion? If "the other side" is attempting to counter facts with a single instance of something and declaring it to be writ-large for all women, why bother with facts at all?

Two plus two will always equal four, no matter how strongly anyone feels against it for whatever reason.

In any case, since I have not done what you're accusing me of, isn't that a strawman argument?

itsallinthesoul wrote:

If you cannot see that what you write can be perceived in different ways by different people, well that is your problem and not mine.

Not only am I aware of it, I see you doing it as well. I can only state what I am stating as clearly as possible. Some are reading far more into it than is there, some are not.

itsallinthesoul wrote:

If you took a balanced position in reporting on abortion "facts" then I would have nothing to say about what you right except perhaps to agree with you. Your position smells decidely pro-abortion. Neither pro-life nor pro-abortion debate a balanced position but they do make for a good debate....I should perhaps simply get some popcorn to go with my reading of this thread. I take offense to people who claim to be pro-choice when they clearly are not in their "rants" on abortion.

Perhaps you'd better define what you mean by pro-abortion. You're saying that I'm not pro-choice, but pro-abortion, because I dispute it when the anti-choice/anti-abortion/pro-life/pick-your-favorite-label side continues to perpetuate myths that have long since been disproven.

Now, what's so unbalanced about what I've said, other than that I'm not willing to accept things that are disproven? Why do you believe I am ranting, if that's what you're saying (you didn't explicitly say me, so I'm not going to assume that I am who you mean "people who claim to be pro-choice...")

itsallinthesoul wrote:

The reason why I don't comment on the "facts" given by either side of the debate is because I'm smart enough to realize that neither are unbiased. As a matter of "FACT", I stated as much in the post of mine you quoted and quoted again in this post. As I said before in this thread, I make decisions for my body and my life based on medical information I receive from a medical professional who is not biased in the outcome of my decision.

Ok, fine, then why not point out to me the facts that I have stated that are actually false, but that I keep insisting are true. I never claimed that what I'm saying applies 100% to everyone. Your decision and your opinions are all fine and well, but they do not change the actual medical facts, research facts, etc.

If I have not insisted on the truth of falsehoods, then again, you're accusing me of something I haven't done. Ergo, strawman argument.

itsallinthesoul wrote:

Telling any woman that having an abortion will not affect her is FALSE.

Then it's a good thing that I never made any such claim, isn't it? This, likewise, is therefore a strawman argument.

itsallinthesoul wrote:

I don't give a rats ass about proof that medically the actual procedure is safe and there is no evidence to show that the procedure can cause negative emotions in a woman following the procedure. I have never disputed those facts, I just don't care about them.

Then why do you insist not only on commenting on them, but deliberately misconstruing the intent of those stating those facts? Why bother getting into the debate on those particular points at all if you don't give a rat's ass about them?

itsallinthesoul wrote:

What I care about it the reasons WHY a woman is choosing to have an abortion because those reasons can be directly correlated (in most cases) to how well she will emotionally process what she has done. I grant this is not directly attributable to the actual procedure itself, but it is a component nonetheless of having the procedure done.

I've never argued this, either. In fact, I agree with what you're granting, that it's not directly attributable to the actual procedure.

itsallinthesoul wrote:

The reason why I don't think you as a man should have a say in abortion is for that reason and that reason alone. You will never understand because you will never be in a position to make the decision to terminate a pregnancy within your own body.

I've already outlined the situations where I think a man should probably have some say, about 20 pages ago or so. It's not something that's particularly come up in the more recent posts that I objected to. Why bring it up?

Your last statement in this paragraph is your own opinion. Because I can never be pregnant, I can never understand what a woman goes through. Add women who have never been pregnant to that list, in addition to men. Just because we can't physically go through the process doesn't mean we can't fully understand it. Maybe I can, maybe I can't. Maybe others can, maybe others can't.

In any case, I don't see what THAT has to do with the points I've brought up, either. I did object to someone saying that men aren't even allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

itsallinthesoul wrote:

I feel it is as morally reprehensible to make a woman feel guilty for having an abortion as I feel it is to tell a woman she will feel nothing because the studies show that most women experience no negative side effects from abortion (physical or emotional).

Once again, it's a good thing that I haven't done the latter, then, isn't it? Do I need to say the s-word again?

itsallinthesoul wrote:

You cannot call yourself pro-choice if you feel strongly that abortion is not a big deal because you are judging every single woman who has come into this thread and shared her personal experience as being invalid!

Is there an echo in here - let's refer back to the s-word because I haven't done THIS either.

itsallinthesoul wrote:

You can only call yourself pro-choice if you are willing and able to provide balanced factual evidence and quite frankly, neither camp does.

Maybe it's best if you define what you believe to be balanced factual evidence, then. You object quite strenuously to the things I've said, yet haven't actually pointed out where I've provided incorrect information.

You've barely, if at all, done so with information from the pro-life/ant-abortion/whatever side, or the ones that are posting information that you personally know to be false.

Now, if you're finding it convenient to say that "neither camp does" and make it sound like both are equally guilty if you realize that it's more a 90/10 split of who provides misinformation, then that's being rather deceptive on your part, isn't it?

I mean, what if someone came in with the idea that abortions are fun, exciting, pleasurable, and every woman should try to have at least 2 of them a year. Should THAT view also be given "equal" or "balanced" time?

itsallinthesoul wrote:

You can only call yourself pro-choice if you can honestly not judge another for their choices.

People judge, analyze, or think about what other people do all the time. So, why is this particular topic a sacred cow? Can YOU honestly not judge anyone for any particular choice they make? Would it never even cross your mind to try and think about why they made that choice?

You're not only judging me, but you are, while denying it, misrepresenting what I've been saying.

You make several accusations here - so, now, if you can point out (in context, please, don't try to take a quote in isolation) where I've been misleading, where I've presented information that is factually incorrect, and so forth, by all means, do so. Don't just throw around the accusation and say I'm a bad person for objecting to it when someone does give information that is flat out false, whether deliberately or because they don't actually know.

Why am *I* stirring the pot, and not anyone who *is* providing false information?

You've also engaged in ad homenim against futureshock, assuming, apparently, that she can't possibly be a woman or a parent because her views are so different than yours. Aren't you judging her for the choices she made, either in terms of keeping/terminating a pregnancy, or posting facts, as well as her opinions, on the matter?

Didn't you judge me to be angry and damaged in post 397 because of my views? Not even any action I took, just because I bothered to tell people what actually happened?

You were also "done with this thread" by post 404.

You also decided to blanket punish every woman who may get pregnant for your disagreement with opinions differing from your own - or because of what you read into it. if I may quote from post 412:

Everytime I read your posts Futureshock, I become less of a pro-choice person and more of a pro-life person. Keep it up ......if the cost of women having the choice to abort or not means that men get off the hook for their share of responsibilitythen I say outlaw abortion again

No, clearly not judging anyone or anything there.

Pot, meet kettle.

Then again, you were doing the same accusing-someone-of-something-they-didn't say back in those posts, as well, and frankly, right now, I don't currently feel like going through the next 700-odd posts to point out where you're doing the very thing you're accusing me of.
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 1129
view profile
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/4/2009 10:40:34 PM

But then there is this.........when a woman shares her personal experience and is met with a study that shows that for most women, what they experience is relief after an abortion, what message do you think you sending to that woman?

Once again . . I did NOT do this. I presented information about studies when people were saying that the likelihood of post-abortion trauma was higher than it actually is. It is NOT my fault that the woman presented her personal experience and then said that this will happen to many, most, or all women who choose get an abortion.

You claimed earlier that you'd call the pro-lifers on their BS as much as you'd call the pro-choicers on it. So why aren't you calling yourself on your own BS here, on what you're reading into my posts that isn't there? Why aren't you absolutely RAILING against people who are again and again providing misinformation and outright falsifications about abortion?

So, once again, why hammer at ME, and accuse me of things I haven't done, and IGNORE posts that you personally KNOW are factually incorrect?

Or am I just a male, and can't understand - and futureshock a phony, a male posting as a female? I suppose then that both bosoxfaninwa and OpieDopey are just more sophisticated frauds by adding some woman's picture to their phony profiles, and are clearly themselves also men, right?

You'll have to forgive the sarcasm, but frankly, you've quite earned a heaping helping of it and then some with your tirade.
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 1131
view profile
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/5/2009 1:22:23 PM
itsallinthesoul wrote:

I don't have to forgive shiat NotElvis....sarcasm is the tool of the frustrated and emotional. I'm going to show your "feelings" the same degree of respect that mine received in this thread.....

When you can post something to me devoid of all the emotion, then I will respond further...until then your emotions are your issue, not mine.

The "have to forgive" phrase wasn't meant to be taken literally, but, oooh, way to evade. Now I'm supposed to be devoid of all emotion? Wouldn't that necessitate a lack of compassion as well?

Frustration? Please. It's a bit hard to be frustrated at something like this, though I suppose I could be if I tried hard enough.

And, seriously, when have I shown disrespect to your feelings in this thread? Or is that yet another one of the list of fictions you've managed to come up with?

In any case, the problem is that you can't back, at all, your accusations against me - heck, you've convinced a newcomer to this thread that you've got a vendetta against me....

Seriously, what is your actual problem? Clearly it can't be what you've stated, since I haven't done what you've said I've done. Why the attacks?
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1134
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/10/2009 10:05:46 PM

I think this thread has finally lost the debate lol

What do you mean by that? An inanimate object cannot debate.
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 1136
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 7/11/2009 7:53:10 AM

Ok... just for you BOX, since everything has to be technical with you.... I'll rephrase... I think this thread has died and the "debate" has died as well....

The thread died, the debate hasn't. It's just unfortunate that those who were presenting false information on the subject cannot stand corrected.
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