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 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 92
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or ParenthoodPage 2 of 49    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
The woman had to know that too....

I'm sorry ladies - I really not trying to white knight the OP here, I just want to make sure his point is getting across.

The point is that it takes 2 to tango. BOTH people consentially having sex make a baby or potential baby.

But only a woman has any legal say in what happens then. So for her to NOT consult the man, have a baby, and the just -assume- he will assume the role of a father or happily want to be in that child's life is....

retarded.

Both people are responsible if there is an accidental conception, but only the woman has the power and legal right to decide what to do about it at that point.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 93
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/17/2009 9:46:22 AM
Rickyeyes what the hell are you talking about?
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 94
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/17/2009 9:56:18 AM
torquoise pixie

I love you. Will you be my forums buddy?

That was such a logical, fair, educated, well written summation...

that I almost fell out of my chair.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like deadbeat dads. I am all for equal rights, but for equal rights to be equal, both parties should have power at every stage of a relationship or life.

As of right now, the way the legal systems and most people's belief stands, a man has no say and is powerless in the decision making process once a child is conceived.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 96
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/17/2009 10:45:39 AM
THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ABORTION. And yes, abortion IS a choice. I am pro-choice but I think abortion is murder.

Why am I still pro-choice? Because it's a free country and not everyone in the world should have to live by my moral code.

Anyone who posts below this line
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and still thinks this thread is about abortion is a complete friggin idiot.

ADOPTION PEOPLE! OR a mother can have the kid and not expect the father to BE a father. This thread is not about whether women should kill kids or not. It's about whether a man should have any sort of legal or social right to what happens with a baby once it is conceived.

Expecting a man to have no legal say or power in the matter and then make him cough up money for 18 years is ludicrous and unfair.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 98
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/17/2009 11:06:36 AM
If I **** a woman, she let me **** her.

Making it sound like just by ****ing a girl that I waived all my rights is just absolute, selfish idiocy.

I feel sorry for any man who deposited sperm in your vag, as you so crassly put it.

This thread is about accidental pregnancies, and condoms do not always work as intended.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 101
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/17/2009 11:32:38 AM
I don't have kids. Thank God. I don't need advice on contraceptives.


AND...


Yay for vasectomy!
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 116
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/18/2009 3:58:37 AM
Yay for vasectomy!!!!

::dancing::
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 123
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/18/2009 9:10:20 AM
Futureshock your logic or actual statistics has no effect on emotional posters.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 126
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/18/2009 9:29:31 AM
Or you could have just not had a kid or given it up for adoption.

Which is kind of the point of this thread.

And if that were the situation, if that "man" were good enough to spread your legs for, that shows very poor judgment. I don't know if that is your situation or not, but whenever women talk about what a useless SOB their baby daddy is, for some reason the fact that half their kid's DNA comes from that guy which makes that child MUCH more likely to have those same personality defects never really occurs to them. My gal friends get irritated at me when I point things like this out.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 129
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/18/2009 9:44:07 AM
Ok then we're pretty much agreed then. Similar opinions, but different ways of putting them.

It's the 21st century with all this technology, and human communication pretty much still sucks.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 132
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/18/2009 10:05:08 AM
All my single mom friends are independent.

I respect them. I don't respect those who make others pay for their choice.

So I think a lot of us are actually in agreeance.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 135
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/18/2009 11:55:14 AM
Widowed and divorced mothers are usually not in the age range of girls I look for. So for me personally it's kind of irrelevant.
 grizzelda
Joined: 6/25/2006
Msg: 162
view profile
History
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 5:26:11 AM

But they ARE financially responsible NOW, whether they want to be or not, and it isn't working.


Its working, you mean it isnt "working" for the guy paying the money.....


Because, while you were having unprotected sex with the mindset that it would be ok if you got pregnant because you were "fully prepared to accept the responsibility for my actions and live with the consequences. ", that DOES NOT mean that the man involved felt the same way. Maybe he wasn't prepared to be a father, and didn't want you to get pregnant, and thought you were on the pill or couldn't get pregnant, or that you would abort if you got pregnant.


well then I suggest that man, who was perfectly happy getting his rocks off at the time, start to think with something other than his****...


Again, while that would be great, it doesn't work. Men really aren't prepared to defend themselves against a woman who wants a baby, because many of them just aren't thinking that the woman is thinking that.


Again, I suggest that these men actually start to make sure they are having this so called uninformed sex with women they have an understanding with, with the realization that they still could be responsible for any babies that mysteriously appear...


Well, they are on the hook now and it isn't working. That is why we need to try something else. In the U.S. we cannot keep going with the rate of illegitimate births we have now, because too many of these children are in poverty,


Ok, maybe some of these uninformed men should be forced to pay for these children they are very happily making out there.

I am getting a few things from the OP, apparently the vast majority of men are too stupid to figure out that sex creates babies and that women have reproductive control over their bodies. Also, apparently men are incapable of making crucial decisions that come from their random sexual acts. So due this apparent mental deficiency that the Op seems to think many men have,we should start issuing sexual licences for men, we can educate their feeble brains so they understand that sex creates babies, that accidents happen and that they do have the risk of having to support their offspring whether they want to or not.

Now I get that it is much easier to continue on with the time honored tradition of blaming women for this, but I guess the rest of the population that manage to go throughout life managing to not leave a trail of unwanted children by making intelligent decisions, is getting a little tired of these poor little men who want to practice making babies, be adult enough to have sex, but not adult enough to carry the burden of having sex. So men, I suggest one of two things, you can actually take responsibility of your little man, or you can stand around and stomp your feet about how unfair it is that you had uncontrolled sex with someone that is now pregnant and now you have to step up to the plate.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 181
view profile
History
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 1:13:13 PM
WARNING: I've made NUMEROUS edits to this post in a short time.
pepsichall - wow, your post is just . . wow.




No, not when there is adoption available. I am one of those pro-lifers and I do believe that the unborn is not a fetus but that the unborn is actually a human being.


Well, see, there's a HUGE difference between belief, and fact. You "believe" the unborn (from the moment of conception, presumably?) is a human being.

The facts, however, say that when there's no neural development, there's no person. If the fetus/embryo is at such an early stage that the neural system isn't developed enough to react to ANY stimuli, even pain, then clearly there's no mind, and no essence of a human being.





So no, abortion is never the answer......
but in the subject title "unplanned pregnancy doesnt have to lead to birth..." implies that abortion is an option and for me, it isnt.


Ok, so the latter counters the former. What are you saying? That abortion is NEVER the answer for ANYBODY, or that it's never an option for you? Or both?

If it's not an option for you, wonderful! Nobody will EVER force you to get an abortion - it's not like doctors and clinic employees wait in dark alleys to snatch unsuspecting pregnant women off the streets and give them abortions.

And, NEVER an option? Ok, so, let's say there's a situation where a woman gets pregnant, but if she tries to carry to term, both she AND the fetus will die, guaranteed, whereas if the pregnancy is terminated before a certain time, the woman will survive.

Does your statement "never" mean the woman must be a martyr to your cause, or is abortion an option in this scenario?





Why should a baby have to pay for your childishness and irresponsibility?


Because it's not yet a baby, and there's no childishness and irresponsibility when precautions have been taken, just because the precautions fail.






Dont do the crime if you cannot do the time.


And THIS statement, is, unfortunately, the perfect example of the mentality of the self-righteous of the pro-lifers. They usually DENY this, but, unfortunately, this is the way it is.

Sex is wrong, sex is bad, and sex is ONLY for procreation and you'd better damn well NOT enjoy it, because it is up to me/someone-else-besides-you who you're allowed to have sex with and when you're allowed to have sex.

If you have sex for any reason OTHER than procreation, then you should be punished with a child - to pay for your crime. The baby is the instrument of punishment - and never mind if the baby suffers along with it because the parents may not be competent to be parents or have the resources to raise the child.

So, in this particular example, and with this particular line, we've got proof that some pro-lifers, unfortunately, don't actually care about the life of the unborn. Their only concern is proper punishment for the crime of unauthorized sex.



Onto a somewhat different aspect of this topic, Annie I Oakley wrote:


The problem arises when it's not an accident at all. Now most women will never admit to it but women get pregnant on purpose all the time and just call it an accident. They tell their partners that they are on the pill or that they can't have children,and then all of the sudden the man ends up having a child forced on them.The rate of birth control failing and at the very same time a woman just happens to be ovulating and actually manages to get pregnant are so low that the statistics are negligible.


Interestingly, I'm wondering if this is what happened to me. My ex had been on the pill for about 5 or 6 years, AND had hypothyroidism, the latter of which, according to what she told me her doctor said, makes it more difficult to get pregnant even if you're being treated with Synthroid.

Interestingly as well, when we sold a house and made a reasonable profit, well, the closing was a month or two later, and that's about when she conceived.

Even more interesting is that she claimed that during the stress and hubbub of preparing to move, she says "I may have missed the pill once. Maybe twice."

Everyone I've spoken to thus far has told me that there's no way. She had to have stopped taking it for a few weeks at least. However, without a journal entry, confession (to a friend or otherwise), or some other smoking gun, well, that's the way life goes.

She probably forgot to consider that there's now a child who's stuck with the consequences of her deception as well.


In my own case as well, I didn't know a child was a must-have until she was about 2 months pregnant. However, whenever she'd asked me about children, since we started dating (3-1/2 years before getting married), I'd say either:

"If I were to have children, I'd only have one, under no circumstances unplanned, and when I'm financially stable."

Or:

"If I were ever so completely insane as to have children, I'd only have one, under no circumstances unplanned, and when I'm financially stable."


The only thing she ever mentioned to me about it:
"Would it bother you if I couldn't have children?"

To which my answer was either:
"No, not at all."

or:

"No, in fact, that would be preferable."


I don't think I was particularly ambiguous. I didn't say no, never at all 100%, but I did make it quite clear that it was almost definitely a no-go for me. If she decided that that one slim "well he might want to" entitled her to take the decision out of my hands . . well, yes, I personally know at least one person who supports her completely blindly, unquestioningly, on everything she does (no, not a family member, surprisingly enough)

 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 194
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 7:22:36 PM

A pregnant woman would have to get a notarized, signed agreement from the man who impregnated her before her first trimester was over, that stated the man would agree to pay child support. If the man does NOT sign that document, he cannot be forced to pay child support, and the woman still has time to either get an abortion or put the child up for adoption if she cannot afford to care for the child on her own.


This is a step in the right direction. Like I said before, if you are not married to the man, you can't reasonably assume that he is committed to you enough to want to raise and/or support a child with you, end of story. The onus isn't on men to keep their junk in their pants. It's on women to keep their legs shut. Men can't get pregnant, men can't give birth, men don't have over a dozen options of contraception, birth control, and abortion / adoption as options to choose from when it comes to family planning. With choice comes responsibility, and since women have the luxury of having most all the choices when it comes to family planning, they also need to have the burden of having most of the responsibility.

The problem with your above logic is the Jerry Springer scenario. How is a man supposed to know if it is even his kid before signing an affidavit? Does this affidavit have a clause in it saying all support is off if it is not biologically his child? Does the woman then have to run around getting half a dozen or so affidavits signed in that time frame so she has all her bases covered? Does a man have the right to know how many other potential fathers there may be before he makes his decision? Maybe he would gladly want a kid with her if she was faithful, but maybe he doesn't want to have a kid with her if she was running around sleeping with several other guys behind his back.

The current child support laws were penned when women simply did not have sex, much less get pregnant, outside of marriage. And in the horribly scandalous event that she did, then the man who 'got her into trouble' was practically forced by society to marry her, or if the cad refused, she was sent to 'live with an aunt' until the child was born, and then it was given up for adoption. Child support laws were penned to prevent the second scenario by making it preferable to enter into the first. The idea comes from a time when women were expected to remain chaste virgins up until they were married, there was no such thing as birth control, DNA testing did not exist, and abortion was an illegal back alley procedure. That's the era that child support represents.

Now, if women want to go back to that era, fine, but most don't. Most women are happy with the additional freedom and choice that birth control, Roe vs. Wade, feminism, and the sexual revolution gave them. Now, 'woman up' and accept the additional responsibilities that come with that freedom and choice. If a man can't tell you what to do with your body anymore, you are no longer allowed to railroad him into supporting a child he didn't want.



I completely agree, and in one post, you have totally summed up all the arguments and opinions of everyone who agrees with you.

I applaud you, sir.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 207
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 8:38:32 PM
Futureshock's logic is rock solid.

As is everyone who agrees with him. To not grasp the logic of the argument is to look at this whole thread through the lense of emotion.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 209
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 9:24:57 PM
My x wife told me if I were ever stupid enough to get her pregnant, it was my manly responsibility to beat her in the stomach with a phone book until she misscarried.

She was child-free. Very hard core child free. This is not just a male thing, hun.

She saw most single mothers as "breeders" and utterly contemptable.

So please stop throwing the gender and insults around here. Not all women want kids or think that men should have to pay 18 years for a mistake that a woman chooses to perpetuate.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 210
view profile
History
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 9:43:33 PM
To clarify my situation:

1) I'd been married for 2-1/2 years when she got pregnant.

2) In addition to what I'd stated in my previous post - well, there were two other bits, which I didn't think much of at first, but later came to realize might've been telling - and also might've been a sort of almost-confession

Both of these were said when she was 2 or 3 months pregnant:

a) "If I would've known you didn't want children, I never would've married you."

b) "If I would've waited for you to be ready, I'd never have children."

Funny thing is, she objected strenuously when, on speaking with my mother, my mom mentioned that "Why did you tell him you only married him to have kids?"

Later I told my mother the exact wording my then-wife used . . . there was a pause, then my mother (and educated woman who has been an RN her entire life) said "What's the difference?"


(b) above, though, seems like she's ALMOST saying "So I decided not to wait for you." although I'm hardly an unbiased observer.



Other tidbits:

I've been using the term "breeder" more and more - generally those people who think that life cannot possibly be fulfilling without children.

Also, I've been telling a female friend of mine the same thing about "gatekeepers" - women ARE the gatekeepers. Short of violence, the woman decides if there is going to be sex between herself and a man.



Actually, I think the "breeders" or the, for lack of a better term, "trappers" would be the ones who most strenuously object to "the pill" for men.



itsallinthesoul wrote:


Women complain that "some" men seem to not assume the responsibility they should for a child they created with her.


No better than the man complaining about being trapped - actually, possibly, the woman's complaint you mention is MORE contemptible - UNLESS the man had sex with her telling her that he wanted to have a child with her and be a father.

But really, unless she tells him ahead of time that if she gets pregnant, she's going to have the child and expects him to "man up" (I absolutely LOATHE that phrase) and support/raise/pay-for the child, then it's, in my view, ENTIRELY her fault, and quite deceptive.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 216
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 10:18:44 PM
[If the man does not want to be a father, he can be forced into it against his will. A woman can not be forced to become a parent.]

Personally, if I knew the father of my child didn't want to be a father I would consider him a safety risk. I am not sure what you mean by your statement. Nobody can force you to be a father. They can force child support on you, but at that point what most men do who don't want kids or the income obligations is to fight the mother for custody. Guys--just sign over your legal rights to the mother! This way nobody gets hurt. Kids don't get rejected by guys who don't want them. They aren't taken away from mothers who love them and handed to guys who don't give a crap. And the guy pays no money out of pocket. Simple solution for everyone!

I don't think you're evil for not wanting a kid, but abortion/adoption are not easy decisions. It's easy for guys to think they are because (some) don't have the emotional attachment to the child, whereas mothers do because the child is growing inside them. It's a part of nature.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 221
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 10:32:40 PM
[A man has 0 legal say on what happens after pregnancy. Period.]

8soldierfalcon8, it hasn't been for very long that woman actually have had the right to make their own reproductive choices. Planned Parenthood was established back in the 1920's and things progressed from there, but in all reality, women have only been able to make choices like this for less than 100 years.

Birth control used to be illegal, and women used to die getting the back alley abortions because they had too many kids to take care of. They couldn't tell their husbands "no' when they wanted sex. Rape during marriage wasn't considered rape until the 1970's. If a woman got knocked up, oh well.

On top of all this, in the event of divorce, men used to always get the kids (whether they wanted them or not). In the late 19th century until the 1960's women were able to get divorces and shared custody but almost never received child support.

Just wanted to share this information because in all reality, women have had it much harder for a very long time. Like I said to another poster, men who don't want kids are not bad people; it's their choice. But if you don't want kids, and you get a girl pregnant, sign away your rights. Contrary to what many men believe, most women would rather have a loving father for their kids than a disgruntled one. It's not always about the child support, like men think. The judicial system is to be blamed for that mess.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 223
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 10:50:35 PM
"If the courts were fair in custody issues and women knew they did not have an almost 100% chance of getting the bulk of the kids time and the likely hood of child support also being ordered against the man, I bet you lots more women would pick abortion. "

Men who ask for custody get it 60 to 80 percent of the time. Where do you guys live anyway? This tired old misconception gets thrown around that women always get custody, and that is such b.s.

Also, I think that men who try to take a child away from a mother just so they don't have to pay child support, or they want to get revenge on a women for a failed relationship, what have you, are scum. I'm surprised that we don't hear about vigilante justice occurring more often. Don't blame the women for the child support! It's the friggin government. Many women have to get on some kind of assistance for awhile, and because the government wants someone to pay, they go after fathers, sometimes men who aren't even the actual fathers are ordered to pay. It's ridiculous. Parents, both willing and reluctant are pitted against each other because of this flawed system. I seriously think the government should take a bigger responsibility in this. You can't force a man to love a child he didn't want in the first place.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 224
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 10:57:51 PM

Just wanted to share this information because in all reality, women have had it much harder for a very long time. Like I said to another poster, men who don't want kids are not bad people; it's their choice. But if you don't want kids, and you get a girl pregnant, sign away your rights. Contrary to what many men believe, most women would rather have a loving father for their kids than a disgruntled one. It's not always about the child support, like men think. The judicial system is to be blamed for that mess.


Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

I have personally heard many, many women saying they are going to go after baby daddy for every cent he's got. Either from spite or greed. I am just of the opinion that a lot of girls who purposefully have kids out of wedlock or are dumb enough to not be able to figure out contraceptives, are not the intelligent, upwardly mobile, educated types.

Call me crazy but that is my belief based on a lifetime of observation.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 225
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 11:02:16 PM
I am not sure what state you live in (haven't looked at your profile) but that is not true in all 50 states. I am going to research this more, and repost on what I find.

In regards to taxpayers not wanting to pay for someone else's kids, people really need to think outside of the box. Who do they think is going to be the next generation of Social Security taxpayers? They will get returns on their investments. I know that's not the point of the thread, but that whole issue always gets me.....
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 226
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 11:06:44 PM
I don't know, man. I have been posting a lot of "rock solid" facts that don't support what he is saying. My words are not clouded by emotion at all. I think he is the one who doesn't have all the facts, and whose words are clouded with emotion (mainly anger.) I do understand the frustration, however. After all, we women have been without rights for a really long time, and are still fighting for those rights. It doesn't feel good to be powerless, so I can definately empathize.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 227
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 11:11:27 PM
Yeah liongirl25....

It's kind of like affirmative action. Taking away the rights and justice of one group who had it over another group before that time is not just.

2 wrongs do not make a right. Making men powerless now that women are not powerless anymore is not just.

Equality means equality - period. Sort of like if women really believe in equality, they'd have to push for a female draft as well.

I know that was off topic, but I think it helped make my point.
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