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 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 228
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or ParenthoodPage 3 of 49    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
I agree with a lot of what you have to say. I differ from you though, in that I think that a child can be just fine with one parent. In your opinion, do you think that a woman should or should not be allowed to have a child without a man involved? Say, for example, a woman who has given up on kids due to seeking major advancements in her career. She finally decides she wants to have a child and pays for a donor and in-vitro? What is your stance on that?

There are also a lot of arguments for two parents, stating that kids without both have more emotional, legal problems, etc. (I'm sure you know all this). I personally think that a child can do just fine with just one loving parent if that is all that they know. Divorce would be more traumatic for a child, unless it could be handled amicably. Again, what is your opinion?
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 229
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 11:19:16 PM
Honestly, my opinion on this is based on statistic and friends.

Most of my friends from single parent households always longed for 2 parents and felt like a freak. Boys raised by a single mother often were maladjusted if they did not have a male role model. Girls had issues with boys they dated.

Statistics say that children from nuclear families have a better chance of being successful in life and well adjusted adults. So I think that a single woman, even a very financially stable one (no octo moms here), who decides to have a child, is making one hell of an irresponsible decisions and being very selfish. A child is a person, and a huge repsonsiblity. If I had been born to a single mother like this, I would probably still carry some resentment towards her.

That's my opinion.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 230
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 11:24:55 PM
I just addressed this: I stated that some men feel that in order for women to gain power that means they have to lose theirs. I agree that equality means equality.

I am trying to put things into perspective here. Women have had it really rough for a long time. Men are certainly not powerless. Men do not want to admit to gender privilege. 50/50 custody is granted in 60 to 80 percentage of cases today, which means less child support, or no child support for the man to pay. Women are not the ones taking your rights away, it is the government and flawed family law legislations.

In regards to affirmative action, it is illegal to hire on the basis of race to fill a quota instead of based on qualifications. I'm sure it happens, but certainly not as often as people think.

Also, I wasn't aware that there was a currently a draft in place for men. Women have been trying to fight in combat for a long time. Are women pushing for the draft to be reinstated, but only for men? I haven't heard of this one....

I think this helps prove my point...... :)
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 231
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 11:33:45 PM
I don't know about that. I think it's all in what we are taught. Our culture is one that pushes for traditional values and morals--they equate chastity, abstinence, and sex after marriage as highly valued requirements. At the same time, sex is all over t.v., radio, etc. It's a highly mixed message. Dammed if you do, Dammed if you don't. (don't know if I had censor that one, so I did anyway.)

I don't know how a child could feel like a freak unless society is influencing his or her opinions about him/herself or home life. Even cartoons say "mommy and daddy this or that." A kid may then view their home life as wrong or different because of this bombardment. Although, there is something to be said about the time that a single parent may or may not have to spend with a child.....that could factor in negatively or positively as well......


I'm not being mean here at all, but you seem like you have a lot of resentment in general. Just an observation. Of course, you might say the same thing about me. Who knows?
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 232
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 11:33:53 PM
If a draft is instated, it's only for men. Men have to register for it at 18, hun. It's the law.

If I were so unlucky as to get a girl pregnant (which would not happen), I would not want to be in that child's life. At all.

Just because I spawned it, does not make me that kid's father. That child's father will be the man who loves it's mother and teaches and grows him or her to be an adult.

By me staying in the picture, that would just complicate things and give that child 2 daddies - one of whom mom probably talks crap about all the time.

I don't think this is a functional scenario.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 233
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 11:41:01 PM
"My x wife told me if I were ever stupid enough to get her pregnant, it was my manly responsibility to beat her in the stomach with a phone book until she misscarried."

Wow, she sounds like a real nut job. Good thing she doesn't want kids, and keep her away from me please, because I have a couple of huge phonebooks laying around in case she gives my kid the evil eye. lol

Is this why you guys got divorced? I know that some women feel this way too, but as she's never had a child, she doesn't know what the heck she's talking about. She sounds mentally deranged.

Some people are not able to empathize unless they've been in someone else's situation.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 234
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 11:50:09 PM
If she had gotten pregnant, she would have had an abortion.

She made this perfectly clear to me before we had sex, and as I don't believe in abortion, I did not get her pregnant.

Simple.

And she is a nut job now, but she wasn't then, and I'd appreciate it if you kept your opinions on that to yourself. I'm not calling you names, and even though she did me wrong and screwed up my life, I married that woman. That was my choice, and I'd appreciate it you not call her names based soley upon her disgust of children and motherhood.

And a woman does not have to be crazy to not want kids. Some of us don't need to spawn to feel validation or meaning in life. You claim that I am judgmental and all sorts of other things, but what it really boils down to is that you feel pregnancy, children, and motherhood are all beautiful things and anyone who does not feel that way is a freak. Wrong. We're happy, logical people. I meet -many- women who don't want kids.

The desire to procreate is a beastly, primordial thing. I strive to be the best possible human, and I don't think I can do that surrounded by piles of dirty diapers and being anchored to one geographical location for copious amounts of time.

What makes you think that I'd want to come anywhere near your kids? Or that my x would? I -avoid- children whenever possible. They freak me out.

So really, I am not saying people should not have kids. The OP never said that either. All I am saying is that since a woman has all the power in deciding if a kid gets born in the first place, expecting a man to automatically be a father or pay child support for 18 years is not logical and highly unfair.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 235
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 11:51:06 PM
"If a draft is instated, it's only for men. Men have to register for it at 18, hun. It's the law"

Sorry! I will admit I'm wrong on that draft process. I should know that too. I come from a military family. Brother/Father/Grandfather, etc. I will take one moron point.

"If I were so unlucky as to get a girl pregnant (which would not happen), I would not want to be in that child's life. At all.

Just because I spawned it, does not make me that kid's father. That child's father will be the man who loves it's mother and teaches and grows him or her to be an adult.

By me staying in the picture, that would just complicate things and give that child 2 daddies - one of whom mom probably talks crap about all the time.

I don't think this is a functional scenario. "

I think these are all wise statements. You're not a bad person because you don't want kids. I don't agree with everything you say (as you don't with what I and others say) but this view of your's holds validity and I won't argue with it.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 236
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/19/2009 11:54:59 PM

I think these are all wise statements. You're not a bad person because you don't want kids. I don't agree with everything you say (as you don't with what I and others say) but this view of your's holds validity and I won't argue with it.


Thank you. I really am not a hateful person, and I don't think all parents are fools or anything. The institution is just not for me. I just don't like selfish people.

Women who "OOPS!" men into being a father, and then expect him to magically act like a father because of HER choice to get pregnant and follow through with having the baby is selfish, and unfair to the father and the child.

I think that's kind of the point of the OP's post too. A child should be conceived in love, by 2 *willing* and *able* parents. Anything less than that is not fair to the child, who ultimately has no say who it is born to.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 237
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/20/2009 12:10:58 AM
"And she is a nut job now, but she wasn't then, and I'd appreciate it if you kept your opinions on that to yourself. I'm not calling you names, and even though she did me wrong and screwed up my life, I married that woman. That was my choice, and I'd appreciate it you not call her names based soley upon her disgust of children and motherhood."

I didn't say that based "upon her disgust of children and motherhood." I said that because it's really kind of a disturbing thing to say. I used to feel the same way before I got pregnant and had my daughter. That's why I feel that people don't understand unless they've walked the walk. But I never felt that killing was in order---with a phonebook? Sheesh.... I apologize if that was out of line, but the visual imagery just got to me, and I went with it....the comment about attacking her back with a phonebook was in jest. I was actually laughing as I wrote it (maybe should have added an emoticon or something). lol

"And a woman does not have to be crazy to not want kids. Some of us don't need to spawn to feel validation or meaning in life. You claim that I am judgmental and all sorts of other things, but what it really boils down to is that you feel pregnancy, children, and motherhood are all beautiful things and anyone who does not feel that way is a freak. Wrong. We're happy, logical people. I meet -many- women who don't want kids."

I don't think that having children is the end all, be all. I have mine and she's great but validation and meaning can come from many different things for many different people. To base children as your sole goal in life seems sad to me. Yes, I do think that pregnancy, kids and motherhood are beautiful---to me, and some others. But I don't think that others who disagree are freaks. I am not contemptuous of them, but it seems to me that they are contemptuous of single mothers like me. Why is there so much concern about what others choose to do with their lives?

"The desire to procreate is a beastly, primordial thing. " LOL I happen to think that the whole process of copulation and proceation is beastly, and primordial, but that's what's fun about it. I enjoyed the time of not being so darn logical, and instead reveled in what I didn't realize my body could do just naturally. There again, that's my opinion. I like how you put this, though. I said you were judgmental because you were throwing the words "whore" and "trash" around. You really don't know how hard it can be to be a single mother. I don't ask for accolades due to sacrifices or anything, but I just tend to stick up for the underdog, whether that's male, female, whoever. It's just in my nature to do so.

"What makes you think that I'd want to come anywhere near your kids? Or that my x would? I -avoid- children whenever possible. They freak me out"

See above :)

"All I am saying is that since a woman has all the power in deciding if a kid gets born in the first place, expecting a man to automatically be a father or pay child support for 18 years is not logical and highly unfair. "

I agree with this fully. I blame the family courts for alot of the child support b.s. They need to make some changes stat, because all it does is pits parents against each other and cause stress on everyone involved.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 238
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/20/2009 12:17:18 AM
Uh oh! I just went to your profile and checked it out, and you state that you are undecided/open to children. You should change that. I'm not being sarcastic here, either. If that's really how you feel then you should promote that. Like you said, there are plenty of women who don't want kids either.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 239
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/20/2009 12:37:44 AM
I've actually had to explain this several times.

I have undecided/open up, because I am not totally against having kids, just having any of my own.

In my mid to late 30's, I think I would be ok with adopting. I just am a huge proponent for adoption, and there are a lot of great kids out there who need a home lest they be eaten alive by the foster care system.

I feel like if I ever DO want kids I should "put my money where my mouth is" and adopt.

Make sense? I'm about to be 27. I'm still relatively young. 10 years is a long time. I know I never want to go through my significant other being preggo, but if one day when I am fully stable and secure in my relationship, if a stork were to bring me a little one, that may be different.

Hence undecided/open.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 240
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/20/2009 12:43:01 AM
"In my mid to late 30's, I think I would be ok with adopting. I just am a huge proponent for adoption, and there are a lot of great kids out there who need a home lest they be eaten alive by the foster care system."



Obviously I think this is great. See there, I was thinking you were a totally, heartless bastage and you had to go and pull the rug out from under me. lol

There are so many foster kids (especially older ones) that need good people to care for them. The babies are always the first ones to be adopted out, because people don't want to deal with the problems that older kids have as a result of abuse and such. It's pretty sad.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 241
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/20/2009 12:53:48 AM
There are so many foster kids (especially older ones) that need good people to care for them. The babies are always the first ones to be adopted out, because people don't want to deal with the problems that older kids have as a result of abuse and such. It's pretty sad.


I know. I'm sorry to dissapoint that I am not a heartless monster... ;) All that hot air that people may have thought I've been blowing the last few days about being hit on constantly and having a lot of female friends .... well, it's the truth. I have a huge heart - keep that on the down low, though. It may ruin my reputation.

I had several close friends growing up who were adopted, and they felt thankful on a daily basis that they were adopted by their parents. Notice I say parents.

Family is all about who loves you unconditionally, and very little to do with blood.

It'd be hypocritical of me to expect single mothers to put their kids up for adoption, when I am not willing to adopt if I ever decide to have children too.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 242
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/20/2009 1:16:35 AM
"Family is all about who loves you unconditionally, and very little to do with blood.

This is so true!

I always end up finding out something different about someone on these boards than I did when I first began talking/arguing/debating with them (whatever you want to call it). I have this need to figure people out. I wonder why they think they way they do, etc. After awhile you are reminded that most people are multifaceted and it's hard to stay heated. I actually prefer a structured forum where people express opinions without flaming others, but that's hard to do all the time.

I have to say though, I could never put my daughter up for adoption. I am more ambivalent about relationships than I am about being a parent. I am very independent, so marriage has always seemed like something that would happen "someday when I was grown up." Well, I'm 28 now and still don't really have the impetus--turned it down 3 times already. My daughter's father is involved in her life and he loves her, but he and I don't get along, so we don't communicate a lot, except in front of her. I wonder sometimes why I don't really care too much about being in a relationship, but then I wonder if I should analyze myself like that. Like you were saying earlier about finding validation in having children, I feel the same way about marriage and relationships..........
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 243
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/20/2009 1:21:06 AM
It's kind of cliche but everyone is different.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 244
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/20/2009 1:34:32 AM
Very true. Cliche' or not, it's very true.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 251
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/20/2009 9:26:58 AM
I give up on this thread. I can use as much logic or personal experiences as I want in reply to certain posters and it all gets totally ignored in the face of raw emotion.

To answer why I would love and care for an adopted child and not want to have anything to do with one of my own... it's simple. And I may have to break this down simply for some of you so you understand.

If. I. Adopt. It. Will. Be. My. Choice.

If. I. Have. A. Biological. Child. It. Will. Be. Against. My. Wishes. After. An. Accident.

Simple. An accident will never be my child if my gf chose to go through with the pregnancy and keep it. And she would not be my gf anymore due to her selfishness. Get it?

About abortion..... I think it's murder, but there are worse things in life than murder. This may blow some of your minds here, but I think it's more merciful to kill a kid than bring them into this F*CKED up world to a 1 parent family that's not financially stable. It's cruel.

I hunt. If I came across a wounded animal in the woods that could not move and still had hours of suffering, even if it were against the law I would mercy kill it. I was a soldier - Airborne Infantry and I'm a combat vet. My experiences in life are not all living in America and hanging out in malls sipping lattes.

Sometimes pretty names like "abortion," "war," or "pulling the plug" ...... are truly just murder dressed up in different clothes, but often an unsavory, yet necessary part of life.

Necessary. The fact that it'd be my flesh and blood, my DNA would just make me more motivated to make sure it either dies right there, or has a happy life with 2 parents. If I were married and had an accidental conception... that'd be a bit different.

So in answer to your question, if my gf had an abortion, I would feel like she made the right choice, but she and I both would probably cry about it quite a bit and not be ok for a while.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 253
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/20/2009 9:39:13 AM
Hmmm....

This is a really good question... and I think it comes down to expectation. I mean, I am not a "normal" man and probably not the best suited to answer this question...

However, I think it'd be because if a woman I were dating was selfish and stupid enough to actually go through with having a child out of wedlock, that right there tells me she is not marriage material.

Harsh, but true.

It's also about expectations. Dating is supposed to be fun - going out, having sex, talking, living life freely... etc. Marriage is when one gets into the mindset of settling down and thinking about kids one way or the other. If a woman chooses to have a child while dating......

It's kind of like someone telling you they love you on the first date. It's crawl, walk, run people are supposed to progress as.... not run, crawl, walk.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All these women that say that pregnancy is a "natural" consequence of having sex, obviously must think it'd be ok for them to get hit by a drunk driver while peacefully minding their own business on the road and paralyzed for life too.

I mean, you didn't have to drive. You knew the risks. Even though it was totally out of your control, in the hands of another and you'll have to pay for someone else's mistake the rest of your life, it was YOUR choice to drive...

Same thing.

2 people got on the road that day. Only one of them chose to drink and drive, and f*ck up your life.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 263
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/20/2009 11:45:30 AM

All these women that say that pregnancy is a "natural" consequence of having sex, obviously must think it'd be ok for them to get hit by a drunk driver while peacefully minding their own business on the road and paralyzed for life too."----- There is a chance of that happening. There is also a chance you blow a tire going 80 MPH on the interstate, rolling the car, or hitting a guardrail. You could get into an accident with a drunk driver, person talking on their cell, texting, changing the radio station, etc. Does it happen often, no, but it is a risk. A extremely low risk, but nonetheless ,a risk.


That's the point. You still drive on the highway, don't you? Well, the chances of a woman getting pregnant while she's using contraception (or the man is or both) are pretty slim, too, which is why people have sex even when they don't want to be parents.


word.

To further flesh out this example... I guess it's more like getting hurt while driving..... and not being hospitalized even though you'd have a lifetime of pain is what having a child out of wedlock is right.

Going to the hospital and being taken care of before getting back on the road is what adoption or abortion is like to me.

So HOW you get hurt is pretty much irrelevant. Whether you choose to live with the pain or fix it to live life like before is the crux of the issue.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 270
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/20/2009 3:18:02 PM
Itsallinthesoul.

I am just curious... do you think I am left wing because I believe the way I believe? I am just curious because I am a very conservative libertarian.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 273
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/20/2009 5:00:10 PM
No, you were actually right.

The proponents for abortion, womens' rights, and career women are generally left.

Paradoxically, LOGICAL supporters of these tenants also push womens' social responsibility in relating issues.

Can't have your cake and eat it too. Equal rights means equal reponsiblity. So since right now a man has NO right in whether a kid is born, kept, or adopted, expecting them to shoulder so much financial responsibilty for a mother's decision is unfair.

That is my argument.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 280
view profile
History
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/20/2009 9:36:15 PM
Ok wow, this one's grown by a few pages since I last was able to post...

pepsichall wrote:


And yes, to me, the unborn is alive. When I can hear the hearbeat at 8 weeks, to me a heartbeat signifies life. Maybe it doesnt to you, but to me it does.


Ok, alive is different than human. And if it's the heartbeat at 8 weeks that signifies life (and presumably that it's a human being), then what about BEFORE that point?

But, I got the impression that you thought that it was human from the moment of conception (ie: sperm penetrates egg, and now cells have the full complement of 46 chromosomes. So, yes, GENETICALLY it's human, but that's a far cry from being a human being. At that point, there are microbes that are more complex, and more developed.

pepsichall wrote:


I never said it was a fact. It is soley my opinion and what I believe. I dont need evidence to believe God exists, I simply believe it. So, to me, it is fact. It may not be fact to you and you are soley looking at it from a scientific perspective and that's fine. That's who you are. I respect you and your beliefs just like you will respect mine.


You're contradicting yourself here. Belief is belief. Fact is fact. Saying that you believe something, and therefore it is fact to you is akin to saying a cheeseburger is a scrambled egg.

The same principle is in the bit about truth vs fact, as quoted by Harrison Ford in Raiders of the Lost Ark: Archaeology deals in facts. Not truth. If it's truth you're interested in, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is down the hall."

Beliefs are NOT facts. Nor am I disrespecting your beliefs. I simply will not stand for beliefs being treated as facts, being used as if they were facts.

pepsichall wrote:


Does this mean you have no contact with the child whatsoever? She might have decieved you, she might not.


No. I have joint legal custody, and his mother is the primary physical custodian. She certainly DID deceive me, though she may not explicitly have done so with regard to getting pregnant on purpose (I do know that every so often there can be that freak of nature occurrence. Still, I've discovered that she's deceived me about a LOT of other things).


itsallinthesoul wrote:


If she didn't tell him she forgot to take the pill and they should take other precautions, I would agree with you but you don't know that from what he's posted...


I missed this one earlier. And, true, I didn't mention it. However, to set the record straight, she NEVER indicated to men that she'd forgotten to take the pill. The first I was aware that anything was out of the ordinary was when she told me about 6 to 8 weeks (approximately?) into the pregnancy about it. She says she didn't say anything the first month that she knew because she didn't want to stress me out since I was going on job interviews.

So, I guess that means 1 month plus whatever time it took for HER to realize she was pregnant. Assuming she didn't know from the get-go, which is NOT an assumption I'm willing to make... at least not anymore.


Liongirl25 wrote:


Men who ask for custody get it 60 to 80 percent of the time. Where do you guys live anyway?


New Jersey. Now, she just may be blowing smoke, but while my ex publicly and loudly proclaims that she wants me to be a part of my son's life, wants him to have a relationship with me, etc., she constantly tells me that if I don't (insert demand here, such as I must alter my visitation schedule at her whim to suit her convenience at a moment's notice), she will go to the court for sole custody. Which basically means I still have visitation, I just have NO say in education, religious upbringing, or even if she decides to move to another state or out of the country. But, even if she DOES move 2000 miles away, I still have visitation rights, I just have to go over there to see him.

I don't think she can get sole custody unless I'm a drug-addict and child abuser, but I don't know the full nature of the laws on this.


8soldierfalcon8 wrote:


Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.


Understatement of the year! My ex told me in March or April of 2007 that it was over, she was going to move on with my life, and I'd better move on with mine. She found the private mediation company and set up the initial appointments. Then in June and July, she played the martyr. Apparently I was supposed to somehow cancel the appointments and crawl on my hands and knees begging her to take me back.

Am I exaggerating? While she and my son were at her parents' place (Feb-May of 2007, though she first told me only 3-4 weeks, then later said 4-6 weeks), she actually told me at one point that I should fly down there to apologize to her (for WHAT??!), then we'd fly back home together as a family.

Keep in mind, she KNEW that Feb-March I was working 6 days a week, and she knew there was a big effort on the project at work - she also knew that I was the sole income, since she left the workplace to care for our son (her idea, though I didn't object), and she KNEW that they weren't giving ANYONE any time off at my job at that point.

"Well, you can fly down here on a Friday, apologize to me on Saturday, and we'll fly back on Sunday."

So, I was supposed to spend an exorbitant amount of money on a last-minute plane ticket to do this, and, at the time, she was spending FASTER than I was earning (and I was made good money then - but when you're staying at your parents' house, paying no rent, mortgage, or utilities, and you've spent $4500 in two months, you should NOT insist that it was all necessities for the baby). She knows I'm uncomfortable flying, and have insomnia issues, which are aggravated when I travel.

She also knows, from personal experience, that EVERY time we have flown, a flight has been either delayed or canceled. If I didn't get back to work on Monday, I wouldn't have a job Tuesday.

Naturally, I refused. Even her mother, normally quite psychotic in her own right, tried to tell her "Well, he can't risk his job." Her reply to her mother was "Oh, he's just making excuses, he doesn't want to get out of his comfort zone."

So, later she sent me an email telling me it was over. She also said, in the email (which I kept), that "it has to be like in the movies, where the man makes the sacrifice to show that he loves the woman." She fails to realize that, unlike real life, in the movies, the man doesn't get fired, or if he does, a mysterious, previously unknown multimillion dollar trust fund is waiting for him.

The sum of the whole thing is that she claimed to want a 50/50 relationship, it was more like 60/40 but I was too laid back to be concerned with that. Once she produced a child, however, I was then expected to be a doormat.


8soldierfalcon8 wrote:


I have personally heard many, many women saying they are going to go after baby daddy for every cent he's got.


I trusted her when she said "Oh, don't worry. Even without a prenup, I'll never go after the money you got selling your parents' house. If it ever doesn't work out down the road, that $155K is yours off the top, and we split 50/50 whatever's left after that."

She brought debt into the marriage, by the way, I brought in that $155K. She started us on mediation, and every time we came close to an agreement, she'd suddenly back out of her own proposal and demand more. Eventually she said she wanted more than 50%, and if I didn't agree, she'd take her chances in court.

By the way, I should say that right now, my net worth is five thousand dollars more than it was in December of 2002. So, I could've moved to my parents' place (in Southern California, no less), sat on my butt and not worked for the past 6 years, and been in the same financial position I am now. To wit, I worked for her profit for the past 6 years.


pepsichall wrote:


Elvis... You didnt answer my question. Do you see your child at all?


Yes. Didn't have a chance to respond earlier.

pepsichall wrote:


If you do, do you love your child?


Yes, definitely.

pepsichall wrote:


Can you imagine your life without your child/ren?


Hrm, do you mean without the child I have now, but he still is there, or can I imagine, knowing what I know now, life without having children at all?

The answer to the latter is yes. In fact, while I know nobody is ALLOWED to say this (one of the unspoken rules of the fiction of the joys of parenthood), things would be much better if we'd never had a child. The ONLY advantage is that his birth somehow caused his mother to show her true colors.

As to the former - Yes, I can imagine it. It may also become a reality.


pepsichall wrote:


It has been my experience that most people who say they dont want kids quickly melt the first time they held their baby and have so much love for that child who is only a couple of minutes old.


True - heck, I react the same way to OTHER people's babies. However, while some people are temperamentally suited to certain things, some aren't. Some people, no matter how smart, just can't deal with complex math. Some people handle it easily.

I was never meant to be a father - it probably causes me 50 times the amount of stress and anxiety that it causes a normal person. In fact, in visiting her relatives, I'd told my ex (then my girlfriend) that I was uneasy around children. Her observation to a friend of mine when visiting her aunt with me (and her cousins were there, with several children), is that I looked like I was either going to freak out, or have a panic attack. I actually wasn't THAT bad, but she's always known that I was unlikely to want children, and I was very uncomfortable around them.


pepsichall wrote:


Also, for the men and women who say they dont want kids until they are financially ready.... Are we ever financially ready?

We'd BETTER be! But I said financially *stable* - ie: I've been working a steady job for over a year. The IT/tech industry has been a mess. Her solution was that "oh, we could sell the house and move to a cheaper neighborhood. Or we could refinance."

However, if you realistically can't afford it, you shouldn't do it.


pepsichall wrote:


As we all know, the only 100% effective way to ensure noone gets pregnant is abstinence.

Or, as you mention, a vasectomy. Or tubal ligation. Or removal of the ovaries, or uterus. Or removal of the testicles. I don't know what the chances are of a pregnancy happening anyway in this case.



pepsichall wrote:


But I feel the mature thing to do is know what the risks are and be fully prepared to handle the consequences.


Ok, but you're also deliberately making this into a "be prepared to handle this, but DON'T get an abortion." Isn't getting an abortion one way of handling it?


pepsichall wrote:


Now if they had unprotected sex because he said he'd pull out *or she said she was on the pill*...


What? You're JOKING about that last part, right? So, it's the GUY's fault if he trusts that the woman was being honest with him?



pepsichall wrote:


I wont say I agree with it because I dont agree with abortion. Adoption is far more better an alternative then the other.

You're making a subjective judgment. Adoption is NOT far better an alternative than abortion. It *can* be, but it isn't necessarily so.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure you ever answered my question of "if an abortion will save the mother, but not getting an abortion will kill both the mother AND the fetus, is it okay to have an abortion?"


pepsichall wrote:


From what I hear, abortion carries very strong pyschological problems with it so whoever goes thru with it will have their own demons to deal with.


What you've heard is a fiction - just like the fiction that abortion will have a good chance of making you sterile.

The only psychological problems will come from the constant harassment from people who tell you you're a monster for having an abortion - or from brainwashing during upbringing about how absolutely evil abortion is.

The psychological damage is not from the abortion, but from other people, who are effectively inflicting psychological abuse on the woman.


itsallinthesoul wrote:


Relief may be the first emotion one feels after abortion, but it is usually followed by other emotions that don't feel so good....how long do they do the research following? How someone reacts to an abortion really depends on their set of values and beliefs.
I would agree that the first emotion for many would be relief but I would be very surprised if they didn't later feel regret, guilt, sadness......


Where do you get this? How do you come to the conclusion that this is the rule rather thn the exception?


itsallinthesoul wrote:


Abortion is not an easy thing to do, please don't make it sound like no big deal. It IS a big deal and it is NOT birth control...


If it is not birth control, then what is it? It's the birth control of absolutely last resort, in my view, but it still is birth control. How else would it be defined?


fab-mom wrote:


How about if you THINK a woman is going to lie about birth control or poke holes in condoms YOU take the responsibility for being prepared.


Interesting little bit, though probably not really related to your point - my ex, who at the time had been living with her boyfriend for a year, came back to the house (we were separated, her name's still on the title), to get some of her stuff.

I noticed a beanbag chair in the hallway and said "Oh, where was this?"

She said: "In the guest room. Or should I say the hotel room?"

I replied: "What? What do you mean?"

She said: "Never mind."

A few hours later, after she'd left, I pieced it together. She was getting some of her sewing supplies out of the closets and drawers in the dresser and night table from that room. Well, in one of the night tables, I had a few condoms in one of the drawers.

A week or so later, it occurred to me that I should throw them out. That room was where all the needles, safety pins, etc., were kept, and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest that my ex would poke holes in the condoms so I'd get someone else pregnant.

You'd think maybe she's not that stupid, because if I have another child, it'll reduce the child support payments she gets, but we ARE talking about the same woman who both tried to get me fired (canceled the internet service on the weekend, so I couldn't log into work on Monday. Fortunately a neighbor has an unsecured wireless router... but my having ZERO income would definitely negatively affect her financially) , and who also committed bank fraud in an effort to steal money from me.

Maybe this goes back to soldier's "woman scorned" thing.



Whew, I think I got about everything I wanted to touch on . . or at least all the points I wanted to address since my last post...
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 288
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 7:18:43 AM
Yay for vasectomy!
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 290
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 7:59:42 AM
Vasectomy + female birth control + pulling out

+ abortion in case of pregnancy

= no babies for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yay!

My x wife looked into getting her uterine lining removed but the docs wouldn't do it because she was "too young." Which in my opinion is exremely judgmental and prejudiced. So many people just cannot understand or accept the fact that some people don't want to have kids, they are downright rude or descriminate towards them.

A lot of the girls I know who don't want babies and despise society's pressure on them to be a mother intentionally park in the "expecting mother" parking lots at malls and supermarkets.

he he he
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