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 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 293
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or ParenthoodPage 4 of 49    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
Hopefully it would not come to that.

That's what the 3 forms of birth control are for.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 310
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 8:11:38 PM
"I have personally heard many, many women saying they are going to go after baby daddy for every cent he's got."

Falcon, I have heard this too, but I have also heard it from women who made the mistake of contacting a father who didn't want to be a father in order to get the guy involved in the child's life. Next thing you know, the reluctant father files for full custody to take the child (who he doesn't want) to get out of support payments. Being that the only power the woman feels now has to do with the money, she then retaliates by hitting the guy where it hurts: in the wallet.

Not condoning the bad behavior of either party in a situation like this, I'm just relaying what I have heard and seen. Again, I will say that current family law legislation can be blamed for a lot of this crap. Forcing men to be fathers when they don't want to will not work.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 312
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 8:20:10 PM
"This is an extremely naive statement. Who else is supposed to pay for these illegitimate children? TAXPAYERS? Why in the world would WE want to pay for YOUR choices???"

Futureshock:

First off, I want to let you know that I am also a taxpayer. Also, any working mother on welfare pays taxes as well.

I don't agree that this is a naive statement. After all, we as taxpayers pay for a lot of stupid crap that we don't personally agree with. I think tax dollars are better spent keeping children out of poverty, don't you? I mean, regardless of how you feel about certain issues related to woman, etc, you don't feel animosity towards those children do you?

I posted this before but it actually makes sense to invest money in children. They are the next generation of Social Security taxpayers. Lots of our current leaders and bigwigs had moms who raised them on welfare. Ironically enough, some of those same people vote consistently for welfare reform and pro-life at the same time, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Anyway, just some thoughts for you to ponder. A little off the topic, again, but it's interesting nevertheless.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 317
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 9:04:21 PM
"I don't get this. Isn't having custody more expensive than child support?"

Futureshock,

You are correct in the assumption that custody is more expensive than child support. For some fathers, though (not all) it is about resentment and control. They resent the fact that they have to pay support either for a child they don't want or to a woman they dislike. The control aspect comes into play because they want to know exactly how the money is spent. In some cases, though, this makes sense, because there are mothers who will spend the money on drugs, alcohol, etc.

Another aspect to consider: just because someone has custody of a child doesn't mean he or she will actually support the child as well as they need to.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 318
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 9:07:32 PM
.... yay for vasectomy? ;)
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 319
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 9:09:12 PM
"I haven't heard of any men actually being successful though, nor have I heard of many who didn't drop the case when the legal bills starting getting out of control. "

Soul,

Sadly, it happens a lot in my state and in neighboring states! I am not sure where you live (will have to check out your profile) but maybe the judges where you live have more sense. Where I live, lip service is paid to the idea that income doesn't come into play in a custody dispute, but it does. Having a higher income, as men often do, pulls a lot of weight, and men are rewarded with unearned credibility and custody. I suppose the same situation could be applied to women with higher incomes as well.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 320
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 9:10:00 PM
".... yay for vasectomy? ;)"

Falcon,

That's your response to this? lol
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 325
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 10:08:19 PM
Futureshock,

I checked out link you posted, and I have to say that I can't do anything but disregard a good 90% percent of that. There are no citations for people to go back and trace the source and check to make sure that statements were accurately documented. Also, it is so obviously a right-wing push in an attempt to force women back into gender roles (ie: the traditional role as wife and mother). If you click on "Right Wing News" at the top, and read through that particular page, the author states:

"However, as a society, we need to understand: staying in marriage, even a bad marriage, is better for the children except in the most egregious cases because single parents, even conscientious, well meaning single parents, generally don't do as good a job raising their children as two parent families."

It seems viable at first, until you read the belief statement of the authors. It is better to stay in a bad marriage (abusive?) than to get a divorce. So, it's better for the children to see the mother (or father) get beat up, and belittled? That's craaaazzzzzyyyy!!!

Also, in regards to the stats on abuse occurring during marriage as opposed to after a divorce: the reason the stats on domestic abuse during marriage are low is because women (and men) don't report it. That's why these divorces occur. Staying in an abusive relationship for the sake of the children is an oxymoron.

It also places the sole blame on mothers. The "controlled" testing also doesn't take into account the current role of joint custody and placement in our society. A single parent may be single, but a child still has two parents, even after divorce. Why all the blame on the mother? It's anti-feminist rhetoric. If one statement can be discredited, then all can be suspect.

I'm not trying to belittle your belief system! In a perfect world I absolutely agree that two parents are the best option! But we live in a disposable society where people toss aside their wives (and husbands) for the next best thing. For those stats to place all the blame on single-mothers is obviously a ploy. The only solution that author suggests is to get married and stay married at all costs. To me, that's not a viable solution. We need more than that.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 332
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 10:47:50 PM
Futureshock, I understood what you meant. What I meant by my post is that some of the statements of the authors are so outrageous that the stats are suspect. When one looks at the agenda of the authors, it makes me want to toss out the rest of it.

Not saying that the stats aren't correct (and I am too tired right now to go google something just for the sake of arguing) but besides the status of single mother, they never specify exactly what makes the crime, etc. so prevalent. What aspects of the family home cause these maladjustments in children? The answer of: just get married and stay married is too simple, too black and white. If the statistics are correct, fine. But I wish the author had posted real solutions.........

The reality is that not everyone is going to be able to get married. You can't force someone to marry you. What happens if you want children then? You're basically screwed, because to be a single mother is the root of all societal evils, according to people like Ann Coulter.

What do you think? I understand your stance on marriage as the best option, but we both know that the prevalence of single motherdom is high. How can a single mother best combat these problems so that her child doesn't end up a statistic?
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 336
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 11:04:57 PM
"The solution is to choose better partners and not to have children until you are married and financially and emotionally prepared to care for them."

1st solution: Choose Better Partners

How do women go about doing this? It would be very simple if men went around with flashing neon signs that said "I won't leave you in a crisis situation, I won't beat you up, I won't belittle you, I won't treat you like my property, etc, etc." How do you screen someone for your future together before you are too far involved?

2nd solution: Marriage

What if no one wants to marry you? Does that mean that you're not worthy of having a child? Does all your worth come from the fact that you have a partner?

3rd solution: Financial and Emotional Preparation:

In regards to finances, I agree with you to an extent. It is irresponsible of women to continue to have children knowing they can't support them. But a woman can be financially able to care for a child without being married. I have a close friend who makes $100K a year and who had a child out of wedlock when she was 20. She is still single and her child is happy, intelligent and well-adjusted. I know many single mothers whose children are happy.

I don't think one can generalize emotional preparation. No one is emotionally prepared to have a child. It is completely different than anything else one can ever experience. If you are speaking of teenage girls, than yes I agree. Education is the key there.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 337
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 11:10:55 PM
"Well um ok, so does that mean that you guys won't then get pissed when we refuse to have sex unless you marry us with the intention of starting a family?"

LOL


"I think we should go back to this."

I don't think there's any "going back." Marriage back in the day wasn't all that great. Women and children were oppressed and treated like property, and the past has been romanticized because our current state has gotten so chaotic that no one knows who or what belief system to align themselves with.

Now, if we could find a workable system where men and women respected each other equally and actually lived up to what the institution of marriage should really be, than that would be great!
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 341
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 11:24:51 PM
"Neither of them are going to take that advice because they are EXHAUSTED. They simply do not have the energy to spend their evenings doing this."

Oh, I see! So because of the single status you are saying that the parent is too overworked with their jobs, parenting, and other obligations to prioritize and parent to the best of their ability? That makes sense. A single parent can definately be an absentee parent even if they have the best of intentions.

"you have to be forceful when it comes to their health, like not letting the kid sit there freezing because he is too dumb to change his clothes."


What does one do if they are already a single parent, then? Obviously, those people can't go back. Should they actively seek out marriage then? That seems hard to do in our current climate...... lol From these forums it seems that men (and women) are reluctant to even date someone with children. Obviously, people should think twice about getting themselves in a situation where the child is going to suffer due to lack of parental guidance.
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 342
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 11:26:55 PM
"This is exactly how my marriage is. I can't think of a single friend of mine whose marriage isn't like this, either."

What about the ratio of unpaid work inside the home? By that I mean is there equal involvement with the domestic chores and time spent on the children. I know some great guys who wouldn't clean up after themselves if you beat them over the head with a broom. lol

BTW, where can these men be found?
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 345
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 11:39:54 PM
"That is a good question. Time will show you what the guy is really made of. Move in with the guy if you want, but DON'T have a child. If after a year or so you both are compatible, get married. If the guy doesn't propose, LEAVE. "

I agree with this fully, but I think sometimes people don't use their instincts. I can use my situation as an example (at the risk of being a target for others who might want to insult me ). I dated a guy for three years who seemed like a great catch. He had a good job, his family seemed "stable," he had goals, passable morals, etc. However, he was very controlling and jealous. I overlooked these things because he also had a good side. We moved in together during the third year, and he proposed. I got pregnant shortly after that (I was on birth control, AND we used a condom, believe it or not), and after a short time, he admitted to me that he didn't want to have this child. He began to get increasingly more and more agressive about it, attempting to force me to have an abortion. I resented his pressure as he knew my stance on that issue. I had gotten pregnant early on in our relationship (irresponsibility) and had an abortion with his urging. I was pretty emotionally screwed up about it, and couldn't decide if it was wrong for me to have done that or not. Anyway, he ended up getting drunk one night and physically assaulting me, which he had never done before, although at times he could say some pretty mean, belittling things. I chose to leave him, and have the baby. I also found out he had been cheating on me the entire time I was with him. He was so good at it, I never had a clue. Today he blames me for the failure of our relationship. We share 50/50 custody and placement of our daughter, and he seems to really care for her, which is good. But we are both single parents now, share a child, and do not wish to reconcile.

This guy seemed really great, other than a few flaws, which we all have. I chose to minimize those flaws. How do we know which ones are okay and which ones are throw away?

I'm asking you a lot of questions now. lol
 Liongirl25
Joined: 12/9/2005
Msg: 346
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/21/2009 11:54:58 PM
"My husband was a single father (100% custody) when I met him, so he was already used to doing everything by himself."

Not to be nosy (and you don't have to answer if you don't want to, of course) but why did he have full custody? Was the mother abusive, or did she not want the child?

"We each do things as they need to be done without even talking about them. He gravitates to the outside or mechanical things, and I do the inside things. Occasionally I mow the lawn and he does laundry."

This sounds like an ideal system!

"I am not a neat freak, actually quite the opposite. We both do the dishes but when we get to them. Dishes have been known to spend the night undone soaking in the sink, lol!"



There was something that Soul said, about the sexual revolution and the fight for women's rights being harmful to women and men's current relationships, that I believe has validity. While I consider myself a feminist, and I think it's great that women now are able to find advancements in the workplace and other opportunities, I think we made a wrong turn somewhere. It has ended up with men and women becoming suspicious and paranoid of each other. We have now set up opposite camps which has contributed to disharmony in relationships.

"My advice would be to make a good a living as you can, but be mindful of things like school work and even though you are tired, make your child accountable for his/her school work. Don't let your child get in with a bad group of kids. Make sure your child has dreams and goals for the future.

Just the fact that you are asking these questions shows me you are a very intelligent and sincere person. That will definitely rub off on your child. You are the #1 role model."

This is definately great advice, and these are all things that I aspire to do. While it is not easy being a single parent, I understand that it takes a lot of sacrifice, and while I can't change my status (for now, anyway) I really enjoy being a parent. I love teaching my daughter and watching her learn and grow. I also get a kick out of hearing about the things that she learns from her father as well. While I don't care for him personally, as a father he has turned out to be pretty darn good. I handle the reading, academics, and the "girly" stuff, and he teaches her wrestling moves and how to throw around a football. I think if we both keep it up, even in our distance from each other, she will be pretty well rounded and have many varied interests. We are always cordial to each other in front of her, and NEVER fight.....at least not in front of her. lol
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 357
view profile
History
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/22/2009 9:50:49 AM
wayne87 wrote:


I think the choice around abortion should be 50-50% of course the final decision should rest with the mother seeing as its her body. but for a potential father to not have the choice or even a say in what happens a child he had a hand in creating there for is his as it is hers. is completely wrong.


I'd modify this slightly - in my view, if EITHER the potential mother or the potential father does NOT want to have a child, or both, then an abortion should take place.

If there is any unusual risk to the mother's health, then it's out of the father's hands.

EXCEPTION - if the one parent who wants the child is willing to take sole custody, and 100% sole financial and social responsibility, then proceed with the pregnancy - though the wrench in this is that if it's the potential father who wants to keep the child, what about the mother who has to put up with 9 months of pregnancy.

Just my opinion . . which would probably have to be tweaked for the myriad of special cases I haven't thought of at the moment.


itsallinthesoul wrote:


Elvis, I get my info on abortion and the reactions from personal experience having actually had one.


Which is a sample size of precisely ONE, and statistically meaningles. and also countered by wtf's post #329. The research doesn't back you.

pepsichall wrote:


And you know this how? Have you ever had an abortion? So, you cant honestly tell me how it would effect the body or the mind.


See above. Research.


itsallinthesoul wrote:


Abortion is not birth control because birth control is intended to prevent pregnancy, abortion terminates pregnancy...,HUGE difference there my friend.


Ok, let's be precise here - birth control prevents pregnancy and/or child birth. Hence, BIRTH control.

Contraception prevents pregnancy, and thus by extension, prevents birth, and is thus also birth control. Abortion is not contraception. Abortion is birth control. No preference, opinion, or ideology will change that.


itsallinthesoul wrote:


Your ex sounds like the kind of woman that some of us end up paying the price for a man's involvement with for a long time...... I am really sorry that you had the experience you did but you should not allow the actions of one woman to lead you to the conclusion that all women are capable of what your ex did to you.


I believe ALL women are CAPABLE of it, but I don't assume all women will actually do something like this. I take my ex as an individual case, and nothing more. Maybe she's taught me to be less naive, but that's about it.


itsallinthesoul wrote:


For millenia, men have had a lot of control over the choices women have, you can deny it all you want but generations of women were raised to find and marry a good provider (their only goal) and once married.... etc


True. Don't punish us for the sins of previous generations. So what if women were screwed before - that doesn't mean that men should be screwed now to balance things out.

itsallinthesoul wrote:


Let's be honest for a minute. Men are easy to seduce because men want sex. Men have always wanted sex and so YOU are easy victims for any woman who sets out to get pregnant. The laws of the land dictate that if you conceive a child, you are held accountable to provide for that child. It only stands to reason then if you don't want to get trapped by a woman you SHOULD take steps to protect yourself, no? If you know you don't want to be a parent, get a vasectomy. Women just don't need sex as much as men do. I wonder if men will ever realize that THEY are THEIR own worst enemy and change their attitude about sex?


Bullshit - women are the gatekeepers, sure, but they want/need sex just as much as men do, if not, sometimes, moreso.

Steps ARE taken - but at some point or another, if an "unwanted" birth is going to happen, it's because one of the parties misled the other. Once you use deception, my view is that you have NO right to rope the other person into it.

As to vasectomy - I wish I'd done it when I first seriously considered it... when I was 19. I'd regret the potential of not being able to be a father had I decided down the road that I wanted to have a child, but I think now that that's a small price to pay for avoiding entrapment.

Or, desperately hope they develop the "male pill"


By the way, one woman I'd met apparently had her biological clock not so much ticking as hammering. She was also in financial dire straits. However, she still wanted a child - in fact, wanted to be married AND have a child within one year (ie: get pregnant within 3 months) - at one point she even offered to sign whatever she needed to absolve me of any financial obligation if I would get her pregnant, and said she'd just go on public assistance. As you might imagine, I declined said offer - one because it was a legal impossibility, and two, because I frankly didn't want to be the one who was responsible for bringing a child into existence with such a potentially bleak future, and the odds stacked against him/her from the get-go.



fab-mom wrote:


1) why the hell can't you keep it in your pants if you don't trust the woman and 2) if you can NOT control yourself then YOU need to be responsible for your actions.


Because 1) the guy probably actually DOES trust the woman, in most cases, and just doesn't know his trust is being badly misplaced, and 2) How is telling the woman who sprung such a "surprise" on him to either take care of it herself, or insisting that she get an abortion, being irresponsible?


pepsichall wrote:


{What? You're JOKING about that last part, right? So, it's the GUY's fault if he trusts that the woman was being honest with him?} Not anymore than its the woman's fault when she trusted the guy who said he'd pull out and then...oops, at the last minute he forgot.


If you'll note, my placement of asterisks was to emphasize the phrase where "she said she was on the pill" - yes, it's the guy's fault if he doesn't pull out or lies about that (the withdrawl method, due to pre-ejaculate, by the way, is horrifically unreliable). However, you equated the guy not pulling out and the woman misleading the guy about being on the pill as BOTH being the guy's fault. Wrong.


pepsichall wrote:


{The ONLY advantage is that his birth somehow caused his mother to show her true colors.} How about the other advantage is that you have a child that loves you and you love him?


Explain to me how this is an advantage. It's true, he loves me and I love him, but that doesn't necessarily make it an advantage. Given his mother's nature, this basically amounts to another vulnerability.


pepsichall wrote:


Sure, from a financial aspect, my life would be better if I didnt have my daughter? But, my overall life would be incomplete and empty. To me, my daughter gives me so much love, joy, and I do feel complete with her. But why should my financial aspect be of great big importance? I cant take any of my possessions with me when I die. Sure, I want to provide for my daughter and myself and want to be able to give us shelter, food, warmth, clothes... but I dont need to make $10,000 a month to be able to provide her with all those things. She may not have brand name stuff, she may not have the latest video games or any high tech stuff, but if she wants entertainment, all she has to do is go outside, take a walk, play with her friends, ride her bike.

MPO (this is just my personal opinion) is that some people are fixated on money, the new house, new car, brand names, how you can outdo your neighbor. . . They dont complain that they dont get to see their kids, but that they have to pay child support. (I am not speaking for ALL men, just the ones that have told me themselves)


Are these men that WANTED a child, got the woman pregnant, then reneged? Or men who're separated/divorced despite wanting a family because the woman left them? You're not giving us the full context here.

Or were they tricked into this?


fab-mom wrote:


I hope you don't think vasectomy's are fool proof. If you do you are an idiot. I know 2, yes 2 women who have children from men who had vasectomy's.And no, not friends of friends or people I heard of crap. 2 girfriends that I go to dinner with and talk to on a regular basis. One of them the guy had been fixed for 5 years!! 5 years and still managed to get her preggo. The other one had had it fairly recently so yeah, he probably should have waited but still.


First off, the second one doesn't count - the docs always say that you have to wait for a while, then give samples periodically before they confirm that it's successful. So, you know ONE woman who had a child from a man with a vasectomy.

And you're 100% certain that they'd NEVER, EVER lie to you for any reason at all, or mislead you, or maybe direct things so you draw the wrong conclusion, just to avoid the shame in case they got pregnant by someone else?

On the other hand, as the docs have told me, there's a 1/20,000 chance that the vas deferens can regenerate and reattach themselves where they were cut, to the point where a man has the potential to impregnate a woman. One in twenty thousand.


fab-mom wrote:


Cause let me tell you a girl can talk a big game about how she doesn't want kids and she would definitely be having an abortion yada yada yada but when actually faced with that choice it isn't as easily done as you or her think.


In which case this goes back to my point on deception, and the girl in question has no right to demand/expect the unwilling father, who, once again, TRUSTED her, to deal with the consequences of HER deception.


itsallinthesoul wrote:


There are MANY women who feel forced into an abortion when the man that impregnated them tells thems to do it or else ..... or when they realize they were careless and now have done something they find morally reprehensible. Just reading the responses here from some men should give you an indication of WHY a woman might be feeling guilty or sad following an abortion....she didn't want to have one!

Not wanting to have an abortion does NOT equal wanted to get pregnant.

Most people fail to consider the risks seriously BEFORE they do something....the posts of some men in this forum PROVE that. Why shouldn't it be any different for women? Is it because we are not entitled to our emotions, that is a luxury reserved only for men? Sometimes in life we make choices that come back and bite us in the ass and we have to deal with the fallout and for many people that fallout is in the form of an emotional response.


Did she tell the man in question that she would NOT want to have an abortion if she got pregnant BEFORE having sex with him? If not, then the responses from the men that you're implicating here are NOT the problem, and she's living with the consequences of HER decisions - in this case, her decision to mislead. She SHOULD feel guilty - not about having the abortion, but for the deceptiveness if she didn't want to, but told him that she would.


futureshock wrote:


Isn't having custody more expensive than child support?


It depends on the incomes of the parents in total, and the relative proportion of each parent's income to each other.


itsallinthesoul wrote:


When a woman intentionally gets pregnant through trickery (lies/manipulation), I do feel for the man's plight but again, he had a choice whether or not to dip his wick into that well without putting on a condom.


So, the conclusion I draw from this (and the rest of post #353) is that anyone having sex should ALWAYS assume that the person they're having sex with is lying about any contraceptive measures they're claiming to take?

I mean, it DOES seem a little unbalanced here - it's a very well known fact that "pulling out" is a poor method of birth control with limited effectiveness at best. It is well known that the birth control pill is an effective method (not 100%, but pretty close). Apples and oranges. But, you've recast the argument as equating withdrawl's failure rate to a woman's rate of lying about birth control?


Liongirl25 wrote:


What about the ratio of unpaid work inside the home? By that I mean is there equal involvement with the domestic chores and time spent on the children. I know some great guys who wouldn't clean up after themselves if you beat them over the head with a broom. lol


Hmm, interesting. You'd be surprised I suppose, that there are women like this, as well? At least one, at any rate. My ex decided that our son was so needy and high-maintenance that she could hold him and take care of him all day, and that was about it. I had to take up the slack, doing what I used to do in and out of the house (working, taking care of the yard, maintaining the cars, etc), and what she used to do (vacuuming, dishes, laundry, etc).

Oh, sorry, she DID have time to go to lunch with friends, and shop such that money going out was more than money coming in.

And, interestingly enough, despite being a social worker, she was all gung-ho about family therapy when it seemed the counselor was siding with her mostly. By about the 3rd or 4th session, when the counselor started telling my ex about things she should do ("You know, maybe you shouldn't ask him to wash the dishes and the baby's bottles when he's been at work for 9 hours, and had 3 hours of commuting time on top of that, and you've been home all day." - you'd be surprised at the reluctance in my ex's voice when she said "Well, I suppose maybe I could do that"), suddenly she decided "Oh, therapy's not working." (after only 3 sessions?), "It's not working because it's clear you're not changing."

I might've forgotten to mention that - therapy wasn't for *us*, it was for *me* to be changed into what she wanted me to be.

I realize my ex is a pretty extreme example....


pepsichall wrote:


And all I am saying is that the MOST common emotion that I have heard is "depression, sadness". We can go back and forth, but the reality is we can both find arguments and evidence for both of our stances.


Then do so. Wtf did so, and apparently it's a neutral scientific research article. If you can find an equally neutral one, not tied to any agenda, then let's have it!


wayne87 wrote:


You know you have hit a note with this, i have a female friend who went for her 3rd abortion the other month. She was so cut up about it , not because she had it mainly because it was her 3rd.


But just because she'd done it that many times, or because she's exposed to so much "abortion is wrong/evil and you're a monster if you ever have one" attitude, and thus makes her feel like, if not one abortion being "wrong" somehow, that multiple abortions are wrong?

My question may be moot, however. Was there any specific reason that having multiple abortions made her feel that way? I mean, from what you say, it's not the abortion itself, but the number of them. But JUST the number? Or is there something else tied in with that?
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 360
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/22/2009 10:37:47 AM




Vasectomy Dance Party!


PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME




Yay for vasectomy!
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 364
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/22/2009 12:35:17 PM
pepsichall wrote:


{Steps ARE taken - but at some point or another, if an "unwanted" birth is going to happen, it's because one of the parties misled the other. Once you use deception, my view is that you have NO right to rope the other person into it.}

Elvis, while I agree that some woman do"misle" the guy to get pregnant, freak accidents do occur. Just dont assume. Yes, condoms and the pill are meant to protect against pregnancy, they are not 100% effective. My stepmother was on the pill, faithfully took it every day, and still got pregnant. I know I guy who had a vasectomy (or maybe not to be to unasuming, that is just what he told my friend) and got my friend pregnant. There are ALOT of dishonest people out there(men and women) but there are also ALOT of honest people out there too.


I agree - my statement was in the context of what itsallinthesoul said: "Men are easy to seduce because men want sex. Men have always wanted sex and so YOU are easy victims for any woman who sets out to get pregnant. The laws of the land dictate that if you conceive a child, you are held accountable to provide for that child. It only stands to reason then if you don't want to get trapped by a woman you SHOULD take steps to protect yourself, no?"

I said steps ARE taken because I believe that, in lieu of condom use or a vasectomy, asking a woman if she's on the pill, and NOT having sex with her if she says "no", is in fact a step taken to prevent pregnancy. In lieu of that, asking a woman, when she's not on the pill, if she's willing to use emergency contraception, or willing to get an abortion if she does get pregnant, and NOT having sex with her if she says "no", is also a step taken to prevent pregnancy.

It just seemed like from her words, that the man should automatically assume he's being lied to, and thus use a condom or have a vasectomy. Since I agree with the cliche that what's good for the goose is good for the gander (though I hate that phrase), it's got to be an all or nothing. Either both should assume the other's lying, or both should assume the other's being honest.




Also, thanks for the sites: checked 2 of them - the PASS site, I couldn't figure out what the precentage/frequency of the symptom is by doing a search there, and the guttermacher site seems to reinforce what I and others have said about the mental trauma being minimal, to nonexistent (relative to the normal chances of mental trauma happening sans abortion). Will get to the other sites eventually.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 372
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/22/2009 3:22:50 PM
I can't believe my vasectomy dance party got no laughs at all!
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 375
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/22/2009 8:55:40 PM
itsallinthesoul wrote:


I do not feel that men should assume every woman is lying to them and if that is how some of you have interpreted what I said, I suspect it is your perceptions at work, not the words I have chosen, but I could be wrong.....

If a man does not want to get a woman pregnant, he should take precautions against impregnating her based upon the assumption that if the woman becomes pregnant, she will not terminate the pregnancy, regardless of what she says.


Alright, now I'm just COMPLETELY confused. How is this NOT saying "She's lying if she says she's on the pill or says she'll get an abortion if she gets pregnant."?

I don't know how else I'm supposed to read it.

Now, the only other thing I can think of is that "Oh, well, I know I *said* I would, but it's too much for me now..." Bunk. That's a cop-out. That's pulling the whole "Oh, I didn't know what I was talking about, I'm a woman, it's too emotional" etc, which is at least halfway to tossing out the idea that women can think for themselves.

Now I agree with you if the man cries foul after the woman gets pregnant, IF there was no deception, misleading, or what have you - but promising one thing then saying "Oh, no, I didn't actually mean that" is bullshit, and inexcusable.

And, you did in fact put the whole willingness to get an abortion in there with lying about taking the pill together in the same comment in post 353. These are deliberate deceptions. Failure to withdraw is also a deception if it's not done, and equal in and of itself, but since the withdrawl method is only slightly more effective than crossing your fingers, it's a bogus argument.

itsallinthesoul wrote:


Elvis, you are damaged by that woman. Your posts show your anger is still alive and well and with the way you talk of your child....I can't explain with words how it feels inside but it is not a good feeling. You have every right to feel the way you do, what she did is inexusable and while you may believe that EVERY woman is capable of it, we aren't.


I'm not sure how you're getting this, but it seems like you're reading something into it that's not there.. Anger? Don't get me wrong, I get briefly angry at her for specific things she does - but right now it's sort of observational with a kind of, well, picture a stunned blinking - sort of like "is this real life or some surreal television show I'm participating in?"

How does this make me damaged? What does saying that I'm damaged even mean? I just realize now that I shouldn't necessarily automatically assume that I can trust people at face value, though I still tend to do so anyway.


You're misusing "capable" What I mean is, every woman is in fact capable of it inasmuch as I am capable of going up to a clock tower and shooting random pedestrians. I'd NEVER actually do such a thing, but I'm certainly capable of doing it. While many women would NEVER do what my ex did, they are capable of doing so. Partially as well, you almost seem to be arguing that it's the man's fault if the woman does do so, because he trusted her.

As to how I talk about my son, I'm not sure what you mean or what specifically you're referring to. I may not exactly use flowery language, and I'm willing to strip away some of the BS language and verbal acrobatics that most of society demands to maintain their illusions about certain topics (ie: It's taboo to ever disagree with the statement that "children always bring joy and happiness into people's lives when they have kids"), but other than that I don't know where you're going with this or where you're getting it.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 381
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/23/2009 9:57:59 PM
What time period are you suggesting? Clearly you mean at 3 weeks or less, because a quick search on Wikipedia reveals that at 3 weeks typically causes HCG levels of 50mIU/mL... urine tests have a threshold of 20-100 mIU/mL.

Let me just say I don't know what exact measurement mIU/mL represents. However, the urine test can obviously measure at less than 3 weeks pregnancy. The organs are NOT formed at this point, nor functional.

From what I recall, even the earliest abortion procedures aren't done prior to 5 weeks simply because the fetus (if it can be called that at that stage? I'm not sure), cannot be found/detected (don't hold me to that, it's secondhand info, but based on Wikipedia, at 6 weeks, the embryo is 1/8th of an inch in length)

to quote further:



Electrical brain activity is first detected between the 5th and 6th week of gestation, though this is still considered primitive neural activity rather than the beginning of conscious thought, something that develops much later in fetation. Synapses begin forming at 17 weeks, and at about week 28 begin multiply at a rapid pace which continues until 3–4 months after birth. It isn't until week 23 that the fetus can survive, albeit with major medical support, outside of the womb. It is not until then that the fetus possesses a sustainable human brain.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_development



now onto THIS:
yesik2186 wrote:


so why if as a woman you decide to have sex and end up pregnant does an innocent being have to pay the price of your mistakes? This thing that many believe is not human until it is born had no saying in the whole situation, this creature didnt choose to be conceived. Both parties know what they are getting themselves into and when this so called ACCIDENT as you call, it is conceived the best way to deal with it is to MURDER it?


So, at what point is it a human being? Conception? Implantation? Are you using any facts here, or just ideology?


Plus, I have a question for all those who think abortion is ALWAYS wrong. What if the mother is an addict, or can't even afford to support herself? Is carrying the baby to term, having it suffer withdrawal symptoms, and possibly dying of neglect or starvation AFTER being born somehow preferable to an abortion which may well happen before there's enough neural development for any actual pain or suffering to occur?
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 390
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/24/2009 1:15:31 PM
itsallinthesoul wrote:


Everytime I read your posts Futureshock, I become less of a pro-choice person and more of a pro-life person. Keep it up ......if the cost of women having the choice to abort or not means that men get off the hook for their share of responsibility then I say outlaw abortion again .

Wow - and yet WE'RE the ones who're closed minded? There are quite a number of other nations where abortion is illegal if you'd like - just don't force your beliefs on the rest of us, thank you very much.


footballmom77 wrote:


Wow! Well, although having sex while not married is a sin, abortion is a MORTAL sin. Not everyone lives their lives just based on "laws" that man created. Some people believe that killing is one sin they just dont want to commit.

Interesting. Probably quite true with your brand of religion, but while I've had it explained to me by some Christians that sins are different in severity, I've had it explained to me by others that ALL sins are EQUALLY offensive in the eyes of God.

Not being anything close to a theologian myself,, I used Wikipedia once again as a reference, so I have to ask: how did adultery get to be a minor sin and murder a major one? I mean, isn't adultery prohibited by commandment 6 (5 in Catholic and Lutheran belief), and murder (or killing according to the Roman Catholic Church) prohibited by commandment 7 (6 in Catholic an Lutheran).

And before you go around passing judgment on people, and assuming some sort of "attitude" from women who've had abortions that you're probably adding in there yourself, while it's not one of the ten commandments, isn't there some phrase that states that Judgment is reserved to God alone - thus judge not lest ye be judged and found wanting?

Again, I'm no theologian, but even I know that one.



Gypsy Rose 72 wrote:


it probably does measure it at 3 weeks, however many women don't know they are pregnant at 3 weeks pregnant as they haven't even missed their periods yet. Typical time to find out you are pregnant unless you are in fact trying to is about 6 to 7 weeks along. Those who are trying to get pregnant would obviously do a test within the few days before period is due, or within a day or so of missing it.


I should amend my previous information on that: 3 weeks, the level is from 5-50 mIU/mL, at 4 weeks it's from 5-182 mIU/mL.

However, those are 3 weeks and 4 weeks of gestational age (time since last menstrual period), which is about 2 weeks, on average, more than embryonic age (time since fertilization). Which means, that, quite literally, it can be detected, potentially, by a urine test in less than one week from fertilization.

I wasn't specific on those time periods in my previous post.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 393
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/24/2009 6:01:56 PM
Ok, first you imply various things about me with no basis, using the "I'm leaving the thread" tactic to evade explaining yourself - and yet you post again and resort to insults?

It's your own words that are your undoing here - not any filters or lack of comprehension on my part. Your "clarification" seemed to more strongly reinforce the "assume she's lying" concept rather than refuting it.


Let me explain this VERY simply.

If the man lies about the precautions he is taking (using a condom, already having a vasectomy, whatever), then it is HIS fault, and not the fault of the woman, that there is now a child in the equation.

If the woman lies about being on the pill, or about her willingness to get an abortion, then it is HER fault that there is now a child in the equation.

Whoever misleads the other is the one who is more responsible for causing the situation to occur.

And, you CANNOT, for your convenience, take legal abortion out of the equation, because abortion is, in fact, legal, both in the United States and in Canada. This is NOT immaterial to the argument at all, MOST particularly if the woman used this as her guarantee to the man that he would not be saddled with fatherhood as a result of having sex with her.

NEITHER person should be expected to assume that the other is PROBABLY lying, or will somehow change their minds.

You're taking an "every person for themselves" sort of no-holds-barred approach to this, which is, frankly, rather a recipe for chaos. What would life be like if EVERYONE were expected to assume that everyone else is lying to them in ALL aspects of life? Bankers? Employers? Doctors? Why the high-and-mighty moralistic tone combined with the anarchistic assumptions for sex?


What is so difficult about this?


As to your own situation, I don't know who told who what, nor what assumptions were made, or if anyone was misled. However, if you're admitting that you're not being logical, how should we accept the arguments as logical?
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 395
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/24/2009 6:41:19 PM
My views are NOT the result of my personal experience - they far predate it. I simply despise deception at that level - it seems very "ends justify the means" on the part of whomever misled the other person.

Abortion may not be an option for every woman, that is true - but it had BETTER be an option for every woman who EXPLICITLY STATES to her potential sexual partner that it IS an option. Other than that, abortion is a potential method, that's all. This is the sort of thing that has to be established ahead of time ("I am/am not willing to do it" - with no changing the rules after the game's been played, for lack of a better analogy)


In your situation it appears that assumptions were made. Was there any reason that he thought you would be fine with getting an abortion? Was there any reason that you thought he'd be fine with fatherhood?
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 436
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/25/2009 1:22:06 PM
itsallinthesoul wrote:


so the blame-game is more important than the life created......I get it....thanks for clarifying that


Why isn't it? You were content to play the blame game in this topic thread, after all, by blaming the man for unplanned pregnancies.

I do not understand why you think it's reasonable to say that if a woman lied to a man about taking birth control pills or lying about willingness to get an abortion, that it is somehow the man in the equation who was the irresponsible one because he did not take precautions that one would only take if the man was assuming the woman was lying.

Condoms are a precaution. Vasectomies are a precaution. Tubal ligation is a precaution. Birth control pills are a precaution. Willingness to get an abortion is a precaution.

Why should the precautions a woman takes be assumed not to be taken?

This is the point I'm utterly baffled over.
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