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 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 444
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or ParenthoodPage 5 of 49    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)
itsallinthesoul wrote (all the quotes will be from her in this post):


You among others are the only ones advocating one is blameless....that one being the one the man.

Not so.

If the man lied about having a vasectomy, the woman believed him, and a pregnancy resulted, then the woman is blameless, but not the man.

If the woman lied about being on the pill, an the man believed her, then the man is blameless, but not the woman.

etc...




I realize that you were forced into fatherhood without your consent and that might be seriously clouding your ability to read a post without a strong personal bias. I understand, really I do, why you simply choose to read everything written that attempts to take abortion off the table for SOME women as me saying women aren't responsible. Of course we are but it is hard to deny the fact that it takes two people (of opposite sex) to create a life, not one.


You realize incorrectly then. Strange as it may sound, I still will actually grant the possibility of the one-in-a-whatever-absurdly-high-number chance that the pregnancy may not have been intentional, but a freak of chance/nature/medical-biological science/whatever. Short of a smoking gun (a recorded confession, a personal diary/journal entry, etc), it's impossible to say for sure.

As to where you actually said that the man is irresponsible because he didn't take precautions, or, if you prefer, is responsible for the situation because he didn't take precautions, when the woman lied to him, or, as you said: "Again, please quote where I actually said this (about the man being the irresponsible one because the woman lied to him about birth control/abortion) because I would not say anything like it.":
from post 301:


Is it just me or does it seem that in any scenario the man should not be held accountable for his choices.

He intentionally gets her pregnant - not responsible, it is her issue to deal with and too bad if she is negatively affected

She intentionally gets pregnant - not responsible, it is her issue because she "trapped" him

She accidentally becomes pregnant - man not responsible because she should have protected herself and she has options. - yes, if she told him she would absolutely, definitely get an abortion in just such a scenario

Exactly then, what IS a man responsible for when it comes to sexual relations? Nothing at all it seems. - this statement outright states that you believe the man IS responsible in all scenarios outlined above



from post 353:


Man - She told me she was on the pill but didn't tell me she missed one, it is not my fault she got pregnant

Um yeah it is your fault too because most men know that birth control pills effectiveness is affected by whether or not the pill is swallowed and you didn't ask, you trusted her to tell you if she had missed a pill

...

When a woman intentionally gets pregnant through trickery (lies/manipulation), I do feel for the man's plight but again, he had a choice whether or not to dip his wick into that well without putting on a condom.


from post 475: (the very same where you say you didn't say this)


Again, please quote where I actually said this because I would not say anything like it. I have as much sympathy for men who get "lied to" about women as I do for women who make comments about their worthless sperm donor..... Z E R O.




So, what am I misinterpreting? Are these not saying just what you claim you're not saying?

What am I not seeing here?
 Gideon_70
Joined: 9/9/2005
Msg: 445
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/25/2009 8:08:34 PM
Personal responsibility. If she was not raped, and got pregnant.... it is not an accident. It is carelessness, callousness, and the mistake was in her forgetting that she is personally responsible for the child she will terminate.
 Gideon_70
Joined: 9/9/2005
Msg: 446
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/25/2009 8:15:29 PM

If the man lied about having a vasectomy, the woman believed him, and a pregnancy resulted, then the woman is blameless, but not the man.


No she is not. She is just as responsible. She slept with a man without being married to him. She took it for granted that someone that she did not know well would tell her the truth. Vasectomies are not always 100% sucessful. If he were to sue for custody of the child, then she would have to pay child support.


If the woman lied about being on the pill, an the man believed her, then the man is blameless, but not the woman.


Bull. If she lied and got pregnant, then the court will STILL force him to pay child ssupport.

What I don't see mentioned is the poor kid. She/he is the one that will pay the ultimate price.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 447
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/25/2009 8:29:52 PM
I was talking blame in the general sort of ethical/moral sense, rather than the legal sense.

Once you draw the legal system into it, it becomes an incredible mess.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 449
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/25/2009 8:38:08 PM
Sort of a side-issue in a way, but...

itsallinthesoul wrote:



The other issue I take with saying a woman is lying about abortion when she says she would (having never been in that situation) is that I don't believe EVERY single women is lying at THAT time.


Well, actually, I don't think we'd ever established in the hypothetical cases whether the woman had or had not been in that situation.

Frankly, though, it's irrelevant. She's still lying, even if she didn't know what she was getting into, because she wanted a certain result - in this case, sex. If she didn't know if she'd "chicken out" (for lack of a more convenient term) when confronted with the possibility of having to get an abortion, then she never should've stated it in the first place.


Oh, and, uh, specifically with the not believing the woman is lying at THAT time, but then her subsequent inability to go through with it sort of, uh, I guess, retroactively makes it a lie? Well, you're gonna hate my ex, but that is the EXACT reasoning she tried to use to justify going for more than 50% of everything - ie: reneging on the "yours off the top" agreement. "I wasn't lying, but I think I'm justified now because I didn't know the situation would be like this."

Though, like the phrase "if it ever doesn't work out down the road..." I can't see how that's in the slightest bit ambiguous, much in the same way that "if I get pregnant, I will get an abortion" isn't ambiguous.

Before you go into it - no, I'm not being unsympathetic to a woman who didn't know what she was getting herself into with her promise because my ex did the same thing. I just find it puerile to say that something, anything, is so emotional that a woman (or anyone) should be let off the hook for lack of truthfulness. That sort of seems to slip back into the women-are-emotional-creatures-so-they-can't-be-expected-to-be-held-to-the-same-standard fallacy.

I've no sympathy for that - it's an excuse, nothing more, to try to avoid seeming deceptive.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 457
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/25/2009 10:18:08 PM


I don't disagree that sometimes in some situations, one can be "more" responsible but being "more" responsible is not the same and the "only" one who is responsible. Why is that so hard to understand? I just object to this issue becoming one of who is most to blame primarily for the purposes of absolving someone of their responsibilities to an innocent child....that is disgusting to me because the only victim I ever see and truly feel compassion for is the child who never had a say or a choice whether or not to be created.


Therein, I MOSTLY agree with you - and yes, totally agree insofar as the child is the victim of the carelessness/stupidity/vindictiveness/irresponsibility/other-applicable-adjective of one or both of his or her parents.

There are varying degrees of "more" responsible, of course. In my view, if one misled the other, but there were obvious signs here and there regarding trustworthiness that the other deliberately turned a blind eye to, then I agree.

I suppose that the disagreement between us occurs when there's deliberate deception. From an ethical standpoint, in those cases there is, in my view, an all/nothing level of responsibility, and that the one who was deceived should, in an ideal world, be absolved of it. Unfortunately, that's only possible in a hypothetical scenario because, of course, rightfully absolving one of the parents of responsibility unfairly places the burden of the other parents' deceit on the back of the child.




Sadly the first impression I was left with reading your posts was that you believe she got pregnant on purpose (intent) knowing full right well that you didn't want to have children and that you resent both her and your child.

Currently, the way I feel about the situation is as follows:
- I did not at first think that she got pregnant on purpose knowing full well my feelings on the matter. However, as more information has come to light, including certain things she let slip verbally, my belief has shifted as it seems more and more likely that she did in fact get pregnant intentionally. Am I absolutely certain? Not at all. It just seems that it is by far the most likely scenario.

- If she in fact did do so intentionally, then I would resent her for that.

- I do resent the fact that she developed an incredibly unrealistic and unreasonable sense of self-entitlement, not immediately after our son was born, but about 2 or 3 months afterward.

- I do not resent my son at all, as he is entirely innocent in this matter, and, without trying to be facetious, had no say, nor was he asked if he wanted to be thrust into this situation.




Things happen in life, intentional or not. The true test of one's character occurs at those times. How they handle adversity is a really good indication of who someone truly is at the core of their being.


Interestingly, and I can't find the posting to see if I mentioned it or not, but very early on in the pregnancy, maybe late first trimester, my ex did at the time say that if I really couldn't handle it and did not want to be a father, she would not force me to stay, and would have no hard feelings about it.

I cannot judge the sincerity of that statement, although given her subsequent behavior, it has become difficult to accept at face value. It is a moot point, though, since I decided that I should "do the right thing" and stay. It occurs to me at times to wonder what would've happened had I taken her up on that offer - would she have stuck to her word and promises throughout, or would the vindictiveness and hostility have emerged regardless.

What if... what if.... one can dwell on that sort of thing forever.




So Elvis, hypothetically speaking, I am sure that at one time you told your ex that you were in love with her and wanted to spend the rest of your life with her. Do you still feel the same way? If not, then you lied to her.....shame on you.

Your surety is misplaced. I did not lie to her. I never told her that I was in love with her, wanted to spend the rest of my life with her, or that I loved her. There's another, completely unrelated reason why I never spoke those words, and I will not get into it.

I think I made the mistake of "going with the flow" because, while I might've felt those things to some extent, I actually thought that there was something wrong with me because I didn't have that certainty about it the way most other people did. Maybe my feelings were just blunted somehow and that's the way I'd always be. I just didn't know. Maybe that was as much as I was capable of feeling it.

I did like her a lot. I think I might've loved her. I'm certain, in retrospect, that I was not "in love" with her at all, though I might've thought I was. How I came to that conclusion is not due to my unpleasant divorce situation with her, but due to something, once again, completely unrelated to it (though not the same as the "completely unrelated" issue mentioned two paragraphs up), and once again, is something I will not go into.


On the other hand, I suppose one could argue that, had I said those things, that in actuality, I didn't lie to her - I think I loved the person I thought I married, however, I didn't lie to anyone, because, unfortunately, the person I married didn't exist, but was a fiction created by my ex, sort of showing me what she thought I wanted to see. I don't know. I'm sure volumes could be written on the subject, and, quite frankly, I slept through my Psych 101 class in college.




(I'm really hoping this came through with the intent I'm trying to convey, rather than my having bungled what I was trying to say)
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 467
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/26/2009 10:27:04 AM
The biblical argumnts, for or against, are irrelevant.

I wish I still had a copy of the syllabus for a class my brother took - the entire semester of the class was dedicated to volatile political topics that had the basis of one side or the other on that topic in Christian belief.

The syllabus was several pages long, and of the dozen or more questions, they were all in the form of "God says that X is wrong" or "God says that X is right", and for each one of those, it was followed with Agreement, then numerous passages to back that, and disagreement, again, with numerous passages to back it.

Abortion, naturally, was one of them, and there are quite a number of passages that suggest God opposes abortion, and just as many that suggest he favors it.

I can't remember if the class textbook was the King James Bible, or the New American Bible (I think it was called "New American" anyway, it's been at least 10 years).


SweetnessInTheKeys wrote:


But i forget, men on wikipedia and other random web sites know much more about pregnancy that women who have like, actually been pregnant and all.
I am an illogical breeder chick (albeit not on welfare), and have taken more pregnancy tests than wikipedia has.


And I'm sure you've verified that every person who has contributed to the articles on pregnancy tests on Wikipedia is male, and has an axe to grind. None of those who have posted might be women, or men OR women with biology majors, medical practices, perhaps even Ob/Gyn practicioners, etc. I'm certain that this must be the case.

Further, your statement suggests that a mentally retarded woman with an IQ of 68 who got pregnant because she was sexually molested knows far more about pregnancy and pregnancy tests than ANYONE who might have possibly put information in on Wikipedia, including Obstetricians and Gynecologists, right?

Research has turned up that in issues that are based in scientific fact (as opposed to political, religious, celebrities, etc) tend to be fairly spot-on in Wikipedia.

That statement which YOU made sounds like you're going out of your way to PROVE that you're "an illogical breeder chick"

If there is some glaringly obvious reason I've misinterpreted it, then I'll stand humbly corrected.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 479
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/27/2009 12:03:50 PM
mxchic wrote:


Then he shouldn't be having sex either! Especially with me since I won't have an abortion or give my child up for adoption.


Ah, yes, but you see, you're stating this right up front. There is no question that abortion and adoption are simply not options for you. There is no bait and switch, etc., on your part.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 484
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/28/2009 1:24:39 PM
lizbeth2 wrote:


I guess women considering abortions are viewed as consumers in the US?....what a country!....apparently everything has a price these days?

Considering that the website covers more than just abortion, the phrase is a catch-all.

But, let's go with your assumption: aren't people who get abortions, or, say, medical checkups, consumers of those services? What else would you call it in generic terms?
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 487
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/28/2009 2:50:21 PM
goga00 wrote:


60% of women who get an abortion done will either have problems getting pregnant again, or will get breast, ovarian or cervix cancer at some point of life.


Ok, this sort of nonsense is a complete lie - but hey, the truth never stopped advocates of scare tactics from saying this sort of thing before, why should they stop now?

Abortion does NOT cause subsequent difficulty in conceiving.
Abortion does NOT increase the risk of getting breast, ovarian, or cervical cancer.




GUESS WHAT PEOPLE, THAT UNBORN CHILD IS ALIVE!!! IT HAS A BEATING HARD SINCE DAY 22ND FROM CONCEPTION


True. Also irrelevant. Possession of a heartbeat does not define humanity, nor does it define life.




so an abortion is not only will cause health problems in a future it will cause a huge trauma to a woman.


As established earlier, the health-problem scare is a fiction. As proved by various links provided earlier in the thread, it does not cause trauma (mental/emotional, which is what I assume you mean).

Insisting that your beliefs are facts does not actually make them facts.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 501
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/29/2009 12:16:39 PM
itsallinthesoul wrote:


I don't care what links are posted, there is no way that anyone can say that NO woman who has an abortion won't suffer trauma as a result of the abortion. I know quite a few women who have, including me......so, it is a possible risk to be considered and weighed before a woman chooses to have an abortion.


I did NOT say that. I was responding to goga00 saying that " an abortion is not only will cause health problems in a future it will cause a huge trauma to a woman."

She said WILL. She did not say MAY, or MIGHT, she said WILL. As in 100% of the time. This was what I was objecting to.


Your link, as noted by wtf (and I read it as well, at least the conclusions), refutes the link between breast cancer and abortions, rather than supporting it. What was the purpose of posting it?

Further, brain activity does not require more than the most rudimentary neurological function. Fish have heartbeats. Earthworms have heartbeats. Brain DEVELOPMENT has been noted for pregnancy, and it's already been stated that there is no capacity for anything resembling pain or trauma until something like the 20th week or so (I can't remember exactly, I'll have to look it up later).


goga00 wrote:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjNo_0cW-ek
There watch that.
Probably seen it before but is all true


Frankly, I don't have the time to watch the entire half hour - but the whole horror-movie intro with the lettering is a bit schlocky, don't you think?

Furthermore, oh, let's see. The username of the person who posted the video is "rosaryfilms" and the website where one can order the video is American Portrait Films, Art Of The Covenant.

If you're going to post something as "proof," you should post from a neutral source rather than one with so blatant a political agenda. If the names alone aren't convincing enough, they say so right up front:


Check out our selection of Christian art, creation science DVDs, and prolife DVDs and Christian videos designed to keep prolife activists and right to life groups informed and to encourage women to choose life.


So, not designed to give accurate information, designed to encourage a specific behavior. It's like asking Rush Limbaugh for a neutral political analysis. At least they're up front about it, though.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 514
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/29/2009 10:18:10 PM
futureshock wrote:


you believe it to be horrendous that he would be praying for our child to have Trisomy 13 because he knew I would terminate under those conditions but you don't think it is horrendous for a man to expect a woman to get an abortion


My feeling on this, and I assume futureshock's as well, is that yes, it *is* in fact horrendous for him to pray for your child to have Trisomy 13 so that you would have an abortion, but it is not horrendous to want you to have an abortion in and of itself.

I don't precisely know how to explain it, but somehow it seems intellectually/emotionally "dishonest" . . I guess the best way to describe it is as, in my mind, striking the same chord in my head as one person deceiving/misleading the other about contraceptive measures being taken, but it strikes that chord at an off-angle... I don't know if this analogy makes any sense, but that's how it seems to me.



future, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that - maybe I'm an anal-retentive former English major, but condoms, birth control pills, IUDs, etc are contraceptives AND birth control, whereas by definition, abortion is birth control, but not contraceptive.



ILoVeMyBaBiEs517 wrote:


This IUD was supposed to prevent pregnancy for ten years.... 5 months after I gave birth to my son, I found out that I was pregnant again.


I've got a question - I seem to recall, and I'm going from REALLY foggy scraps of my memory here, that there was some sort of issue with IUDs years ago that caused them to sort of fall into disuse. I don't remember whether it was a health risk thing, a reliability problem or what - but did anything about any unusual issues get mentioned by your gynecologist when you got the IUD?

Take that with a boulder of salt, this is something I heard AT LEAST 10 years ago, possibly more.... maybe it's become a non-issue in recent years.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 519
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/30/2009 11:06:51 AM
futureshock wrote:


In the case of the poster with whom I was speaking, she and her partner were NOT using ANY means of birth control, so obviously she was going to get pregnant. If she had aborted that pregnancy, that would have been using abortion instead of or as birth control. Do you see what I mean?

Ah, got it. Misinterpreted what you said before.



lizbeth2 wrote:


There is a big difference where I live in being a patient vs being a consumer of medical care

While I agree in that the last 25 to 30 years of the US seems to have overemphasized rampant, heedless capitalism, I still need you to explain something to me: How is a patient NOT a consumer of medical care/medical services?



itsallinthesoul: Well, I tried to explain it in the paragraph following the one you quoted. I know it's not an entirely clear explanation, but that's the best I was able to describe it.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 531
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 5/31/2009 4:51:51 PM
Amelia MD,

Please read the whole thread.

That is all.

Thank you.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 539
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/1/2009 9:31:20 AM
I am going tomorrow to find out about a vasectomy. Thank you to everyone who has posted in this thread.

A vasectomy is reversible, and if I get one, I never have to worry about being "oopsed" or a deceitful or conniving woman taking advantage of me. I see it as a form of male birth control so I can ensure my autonomy.

Having a child (if I choose to do so) should be a decision that I make with a woman I love... TOGETHER.

If a woman ever "oopsed" me on purpose, in my mind that is a form of rape.

So ladies. . . all of you who don't understand why us guys feel so strongly about this subject? That's why.

A woman who intentionally gets pregnant after claims to the contrary is raping a man. And it's something a man cannot ever truly forget because he has to keep revisiting that wrong for 18 years every month.'

I work with a man who was "oopsed". He recently lost his job and took a 35k a year paycut. The court told him they would not lower his child support payment, so he is working 2 jobs for a total of 90 hours a week just to make ends meet. The dishonest baby momma barely works.

I feel so badly for this man. The despair and anguish that enters his eyes when the topic is brought up is terrible.

THIS is why it's a big deal. Any powerlessness in any human being is not good or fair. A man's helplessness at the hands of the system in this matter has caused some men to kill themselves.

Logic is not really working to help some posters here understand. . . so here's the emotional side of the issue.

I hope it clarifies.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 543
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/1/2009 10:54:21 AM
Soooo......

You did not rebut my assertation that getting "oopsed" is akin to rape...

But if it happens, a man should just accept it?

Soo.... by that logic, a woman who gets date raped is just as much to blame since she went on the date in the first place, right? Or... a girl who gets roofies in her drink and raped should just take responsiblity for it since she was out drinking at the club and not staying at home.

Do you have any idea how retarded I think that sounds?


<div class="quote"> if you got a V job and your GF got pregnant, would you ASSUME she trapped you on purpose or cheated on you? Or would the thought of a freak occurence just happened enter your mind?

If I got a V job and she got pregnant, she could NOT have trapped me on purpose.

But you can bet your ass I'd get a paternity test done just to be sure. :)
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 549
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/1/2009 11:18:26 AM
"The majority of single moms I know don't even get child support from the fathers of their children because the fathers of their children wanted nothing to do with them."

Don't get me started on deadbeat moms vs. deadbeat dads: It is not even close. If a dad has custody and court ordered support the odds that the mom will be a deadbeat are much higher then it is if mom has custody and court ordered support. Also a fact is much fewer dads go after court ordered support in the first place when they get custody, compared to moms. Dads are more likely to just be happy winning the kids and not looking at them as a payday.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 551
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Posted: 6/1/2009 12:20:26 PM
pepsichall wrote:


Do men always ASSUME the woman got pregnant on purpose first?

I didn't. I'm still not 100% sure she (my then-wife) did, although her words later, in retrospect, seem to hint at a partial confession. Still, I trusted her 100% at first when she said it was an "oops" (I might've said words to this effect in a previous post in this thread, but am too lazy to look it up)


Interestingly, there was an article at msnbc.com http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29663943/ that said when it came to pregnancy/family planning, there's an alarming number of women who sort of take a lackadaisical attitude toward contraception, with the mentality of "Oh, well, if it happens, so be it."

Notable quotes:

From page 2 of the article:


The National Campaign study found that many single women, when they allow themselves to be completely honest, aren’t thinking pregnancy would be the end of the world. “Even though my boyfriend says he doesn’t want kids, I know he does,” says Holly, 21, who took part in the National Campaign focus groups. In fact, the organization’s research has found that nearly one in four pregnancies is considered intentional by the woman but not by the man.

Holly's attitude, apparently, is surprisingly prevalent.

From page 2 of the article:


“This idea of intended or unintended — it’s a distinction that doesn’t apply to many women,” says Lawrence Finer, Ph.D., director of domestic research at the Guttmacher Institute, a sexual-health research group in New York City. “They see pregnancy as something that occurs or doesn’t occur, not something consciously chosen.”


From page 3 of the article:


Only 1 in 20 accidental pregnancies is due to failure of properly used contraceptives, according to Guttmacher research; most couples either misuse or don’t use their birth control.

ie: 95% of accidental pregnancies are NOT because of the failure of the contraceptive itself.



8soldierfalcon8 wrote:


I work with a man who was "oopsed". He recently lost his job and took a 35k a year paycut. The court told him they would not lower his child support payment, so he is working 2 jobs for a total of 90 hours a week just to make ends meet. The dishonest baby momma barely works.


Interestingly, I may be facing something similar. I was laid off, an my last day at work was the 22nd of May. While I'm HOPING to find something quickly, I'm not going to depend on a miracle. My ex was also notified that the school she works at was not renewing her contract. However, she'll be working until the end of June, and says she's already got something full-time lined up.

Child support was calculated based on the fact that, of my ex-wife's income and my income COMBINED, I make 61.4% and she makes 38.6% of the total.

Given that I'm laid off and she's working, she's clearly making over 50%, but my lawyer informs me that trying to file for a change in material circumstance will be rejected by the courts if I try to do it in less than 2 or 3 months. So, for the time being, I have to pay a disproportionately high amount while ALSO trying to continue paying my living expenses, on an unemployment check that gives me less than half of what I was making.


pepsichall wrote:


As far as vasectomies go - those arent 100% efective either.There are those freak occurences where the surgery didnt take.


That could happen anywhere from the day of the vasectomy, to 20 or so years down the road. I've been told by a urologist that the chance of spontaneous healing that happens cleanly enough to allow sperm to be delivered is 1 in 20,000. That is 0.005% of a chance of happening, meaning the vasectomy is 99.995% reliable. Not 100%, but nothing ever is (yes, abstinence, unless you're Christian, in which case there's the single documented example of Mary. Therefore, even abstinence isn't 100% reliable)


pepsichall wrote:


couldnt the same be said about the man who didnt want to use a condom, even tho the woman wasnt on the pill?....ven if the woman isnt on the pill, they are willing to take the chance


Assuming the guy wasn't sterile, didn't have a vasectomy, etc., and he does NOT want to be a father, then you're absolutely right on this. If the woman told him before sex that she's not on the pill, and told him before sex in no uncertain terms that she absolutely would NOT get an abortion if she got pregnant, then the burden *is* on the guy. He can put on a condom (and the lambskin ones are better in terms of "feel" than the latex ones, but don't protect against STDs), or he can forgo sex. If he's fully informed ahead of time, then he has nobody to blame but himself - he spun the roulette wheel and lost.

itsallinthesoul wrote:


The majority of single moms I know don't even get child support from the fathers of their children because the fathers of their children wanted nothing to do with them.


Huh, what states are these? Maybe I should've lived there. Don't get me wrong, I would pay anyway, but I would pay what is fair, not what the ex uses legal trickery to extract in order to pad her income.

A friend of mine has a daughter about 6 years old now. He hardly ever gets to see her. The mother took her and moved around 1,800 miles away - lives with her family, pays no rent, pays no mortgage, and doesn't work. She also lives in an area that is FAR less expensive to live than where the father does.

Further, the father is permanently disabled. All he gets is disability as income, so has to live with his mother and grandmother. He sends more than half of what he gets to the mother of his child, who almost NEVER comes to visit with the girl.

She constantly calls and demands more - but were she to try it through the courts, she would probably wind up receiving significantly less than what the father sends her currently, since she CAN work (and has a higher level of education) and he cannot.

I know - it's just one example, but not terribly uncommon.

itsallinthesoul wrote:


You want to talk about rape? How about forcing a woman to abort a child when she is against abortion.....think about how that is not rape in the same context as solder tried to claim for men forced into fatherhood.


When does this ever happen? Ever? Do NOT count when the pregnant girl's PARENTS do it to her, we're only talking about the man whose sperm got her pregnant. When does that man EVER have the ability to FORCE her to get an abortion?

Never.

Now, think about how often a man is forced into fatherhood via some form of deception when it comes to contraception/abortion? Yeah, the math really does NOT work in favor of your argument here.


itsallinthesoul wrote:


perhaps now men can truly relate to how women used to feel back in the days when they had no choices about anything......not that it is punishment for treating women like sub humans for millenia.


Again this comes up. And again I say - irrelevant, and completely unfair. Maybe I should find out if any of your ancestors wronged any of mine, and demand that you suffer as a result?

This shouldn't even come up in this thread at all. Do NOT blame 21st century men for the wrongs women suffered in the early 20th century and prior. And certainly don't end the quote by implying that "it's not punishment enough for what men have done to women." Find out a way to punish the men who actually did wrong, and I'll not stop you.




I've said it before, and I'll say it again - deception trumps stupidity when it comes to culpability.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 555
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/1/2009 7:32:03 PM
I don't know.

I mean, the most extreme examples are the easiest ones. If you're completely broke, starving, and can't afford to buy yourself a value meal at McDonald's, you shouldn't have a child out of wedlock.

If you've got the net worth of Bill Gates, no problem.

I suppose one could easily say that if your net worth is enough that you don't ever HAVE to work in order to afford to live comfortably, also no problem.

It's when it starts merging closer to the reality for most people that the question becomes difficult to assess.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 558
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/1/2009 9:01:27 PM




I didn't try to get pregnant, but I didn't prevent it either. Those women that end up pregnant and do so intentionally should by all means have to deal with it themselves. I also think that child support guidelines don't take into account the other parent has to survive too.

How can you logically and rationally say that there is a difference between not trying to get pregnant and not preventing pregnancy?

You must know that if you have unprotected sex you WILL get pregnant, right?


I'm guessing maybe it's active vs passive intent? That is, getting pregnant wasn't the goal... maybe I'm reading it wrong.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 563
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/2/2009 2:36:29 AM

To messages #6 & #7....
How can a man be forced to be a father? I'm confused here.
He stuck his penis into her vagina, knowing this causes childbirth. No one held him at gunpoint to impregnate someone. His choice, 100%.~ameliamd~

^^^Don't bother....men have turned themselves into the victims these days!....I am thinking a few of them were stuckoing the ceiling in the bathroom during health class way back in grade school...**probably the pictures of breasts they were just shown on the slide show!
Common sense does not fly here sister What you are witnessing are the mama boy's who still drop off their laundry every week! Or the cry babies who like to change the rules after they started a game!
How 'bout some cheese to go with that wine boys?...I can afford it....dammitt...just remembered I forgot to cash those damn child support cheques AGAIN!!


Reading this made me want to hit myself in the head with a hammer.
 Tealwood
Joined: 12/16/2008
Msg: 565
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/2/2009 4:46:18 AM

How 'bout some cheese to go with that wine boys?...I can afford it....dammitt...just remembered I forgot to cash those damn child support cheques AGAIN!!


Well from someone who cry's long and often about what men need to do. About how men need to be responsible....you never hold the same standard for the mothers.

So I will go out and buy the red wine...and I will because I earned the money on my own and have never asked for child support. As I believe that as a responsible adult I am responsible for providing in my own household.

earn it yourself.
 freetime2bme
Joined: 1/16/2006
Msg: 566
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Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/2/2009 5:32:38 AM
I am not against child support, but that should only go to support the child when you have single stay at home moms living off the support and government help too, I.E. the kid is their payday not just child support, that is just wrong! Not many single fathers doing this, but a boat load of single mothers do. Then they get mad when someone has an issue with it lol.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 567
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/2/2009 6:44:45 AM

How 'bout some cheese to go with that wine boys?...I can afford it....dammitt...just remembered I forgot to cash those damn child support cheques AGAIN!!


Well from someone who cry's long and often about what men need to do. About how men need to be responsible....you never hold the same standard for the mothers.

So I will go out and buy the red wine...and I will because I earned the money on my own and have never asked for child support. As I believe that as a responsible adult I am responsible for providing in my own household.

earn it yourself.


Exactly. The quoted poster feels that women can do no wrong, are not accountable, and she and all other females are ENTITLED to child support simply because she let that man have sex with her.

Un freaking believable.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 569
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/2/2009 7:06:57 AM
My mom respects my decision to not have kids or wait a looong time. She's not happy about it because she loves kids and wants grandchildren, but she respects my decision making abilities.

My mother would be MUCH less proud of me if I were a woman who was dumb enough to get knocked up by a man she was not married to.

You heard me. Dumb enough to get knocked up by a man she was not married to.

She'd been there and done that, and it has caused her nothing but suffering and pain. My dad's advice to me was to not date a woman with kids. My mom's had I been female would be to NOT get pregnant until I was married.

Soooo... the whole "UR MOM WOULD H8T U!" argument/insult does not really apply to me.
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