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 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 862
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or ParenthoodPage 8 of 49    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41)


Actually, you're playing games with words...
futureshock said: "What are you talking about? Do you think having an abortion means you can't have children later in life?"
to which you directly replied, quoting that line immediately before it: "Complications can lead to infertility, yes."

That indicates that you mean complications from abortion - and presumably, not complications from dental surgery, getting a pedicure, or eating filet mignon.

I'm going to go out on a limb and figure that you meant "Complications during an abortion procedure can lead to infertility" - but again, it's a meaningless statement, because complications from anything can do that.

To wit, abortion in and of itself is no greater a contributor to infertility than any other medical procedure.


I'm not playing games with words. Yes, I was implying there can be complications during abortions, to which she posted data on abortions that were completed without complication.

Statistically speaking, most abortions will not have complications, but there is always that possibility. And yes, those complications can and, more importantly, have rendered women infertile.

As someone who has the tendency to fall in the smaller percentages of statistical data, when complications are a possibility, I disregard the fractional numbers that accompany the information. I don't care how small the chances are, it is still a possibility.

And I'm fairly certain that "complications from anything" cannot cause infertility. I had a complication during a stitching of a deep wound in my knee - I am fairly certain it couldn't have lead to infertility.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 864
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/14/2009 11:33:56 PM


Abortions in the first trimester, using the most common abortion procedure, do not pose an increased risk of infertility.
http://oversight.house.gov/story.asp?ID=1080


To repeat myself for the third time: Complications during an abortion can cause or lead to infertility.

- If the physician scrapes too hard, the lower lining of the uterus can be removed. This is extremely rare.
- An untreated infection can scar the uterus and cause later fertility problems. The infection rate for first trimester abortions is less than 1%. Most women monitor their body temperature after an abortion to detect if an infection has occurred. Early detection should prevent any problems.
- A woman who already have gonorrhea or chlamydia are very likely to suffer pelvic inflammatory disease which causes infertility. They are particularly susceptible to damage from PID after an abortion. This can be avoided by obtaining a STD test before the abortion.
- The suction tube can perforate both the uterus and a large blood vessel or intestine. If the latter happens, then surgery may be required. The surgery can cause infertility. Perforation of the uterus is also quite rare.

It would seem that if the physician is competent, and the woman monitors her body temperature after the procedure, that the chances of an abortion causing later infertility is quite remote.

Many women do not monitor their body temperature post-abortion (or ever, for that matter) and don't know when they are sick or have an infection.
 DragonRider29
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 878
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/15/2009 9:06:53 AM
There are some interesting studies concerning what happens after a woman has an abortion, but they are hard to find, abortion rights groups do a pretty good job of suppressing these things.

Depression!
Suicides!
Breast cancer!
Cancer of the cervix and uterus!
Fertility problems!

These and a lot of other things are statistically higher in women who have had abortions than those who have not, and not just a little bit higher, almost double in some areas if not triple.

One interesting study was comparing women who had miscarriages to those who had abortions and those who had miscarriages, statistically were the same as those who had never been pregnant, but those who had abortions, the statistics were markedly higher.

An accidental pregnancy is an excuse for lack of responsibility.

It is an excuse!

Unless you had sex accidentally, the pregnancy could not be accidental, we learned millennia ago that sex leads to pregnancy. Any time that you have sex, pregnancy can result unless one or the other parties is completely infertile.
We already know that birth control can fail, so if it fails, it wasn't an accident, it was a failure of birth control.
Basically it comes down to this;
if you don't want to get pregnant (as a woman) you don't want to become a father (as a man) you just don't have sex. As said above, if you do, there is a chance and it is not an accident.

And it does a world of good for a child's self-esteem if they believe that they were just an accident.
DR
 DragonRider29
Joined: 10/2/2005
Msg: 880
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/15/2009 10:05:00 AM
How many were planned?
I know of one, my child, just didn't realize what would happen later.

From a majority of the people I have talked to about this subject throughout my life, most wanted to have a child when it happened. May not have been actively trying but were not also actively try to prevent it.

Now for those who said it was accidental or wasn't planned, the majority of those, it seems like either alcohol or drugs were involved and a one night stand.
But my position comes from being responsible, and in order to be responsible you have to be responsible, responsibility does not happen by accident.
Some of the other stuff you posted, as I said above, abortion rights groups have done a lot to suppress a lot of information.
They are very successful.

Now I am not trying to force anything on anyone I talk of responsibility, but you have to understand, you are forcing it on me!
And you are.
DR
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 884
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/15/2009 3:51:51 PM
I love this thread.

All this consistant display of crazy just motivates me to be even more careful.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 888
view profile
History
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/15/2009 7:18:34 PM
bosoxfaninwa wrote:

And I'm fairly certain that "complications from anything" cannot cause infertility. I had a complication during a stitching of a deep wound in my knee - I am fairly certain it couldn't have lead to infertility.

I'm glad you said "fairly certain" beacause the amount of mayhem a bacterial infection can cause is frightening.

It will fall under the same thing - don't care how small the chances are, it's still a possibility.


itsallinthesoul wrote:

I don't personally want to live in a society where abortion is equated to a tonsilectomy and women are going around terminating pregancies because it is not a big deal . I would much rather live in a society where abortion was legal but was something women tried to avoid whenever it was feasible to do so and never used it as their preferred method of birth control, wouldn't you?

Absolutely.


It's just that, in the particular response I mentioned disappointment about, you seem to feed into the perception that pro-abortionists are talking in absolutes. We're not. I don't see any "never", or "0%" or anything like that (ok, unless we're talking something that is demonstrably unrelated - but it's nearly impossible to prove a negative).

Unfortunately, I get from the anti-abortion side a lot of heavy implication, if not outright statement, that X will ALWAYS happen, etc. That bothers me. A lot.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 895
view profile
History
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/16/2009 11:01:08 AM
gypsy rose 72 wrote:

I just want to ask this then, man doesn't want child, mother goes and does it on her own but he continues to make her life hard by calling child protection, and causing issues to have child taken, because he didnt want it? She doesn't go for support so why do some guys act this way...

I should add CPS wont do anything so he gets mentally screwed up sister on mothers side to start...

Because there are SOME men who are total @$$holes, that's why.

This does not mean that all men are automatically like this.

However, we also don't know in the scenario you've described what, if anything the woman has done to hurt the man, or, what she has done that the man may have, for valid reasons or not, misconstrued as an attempt to deliberately hurt him in some way.

itsallinthesoul wrote:

While I will freely admit there are some dumb women who think this way, there are also some dumb men who will do exactly what they hope they will do for the sake of the child.

Definitely agreed - and it's rather shocking how many people seem to believe that getting married and having a child, not necessarily in that order, will fix a broken relationship. Men and women. I've known both.

itsallinthesoul wrote:

See this is a big area of contention between our positions. I believe that when two consenting adults engage in any behaviour that carries a risk (no matter how small that risk may be), they are both equally responsible for the outcome. There are no victims in this scenario for me.

I guess where I (and presumably futureshock) will disagree with you is when the woman, and some women in fact do this, deliberately misrepresents the risk level to the man.

itsallinthesoul wrote:

or she could choose not to have sex. I suppose we could go back to the good old days where the only way a man could get laid was to either pay for it or rape for it.

Isn't this a rather extreme way of describing it? There's no need to go back to the pay/rape as the only option thing. I mean, come on, if it's reasonable to tell a man "Well, she may or may not really be on the pill or willing to use Plan B or willing to get an abortion regardless of what she actually tells you, so you'd better either use a condom or not have sex" then why is it unreasonable to tell a woman the same thing?
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 903
view profile
History
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/17/2009 12:01:05 PM
gypsy,

He sounds a lot like the ex-to-be of a certain friend of mine - constantly claims to want to be in the lives of her children, then takes off, then calls back, says he still loves her, then takes off.

I wonder if he really does need evaulation, though - my friend's husband has been checked into a psychiatric hospital - twice.

Bizarrely, they still won't give her sole custody.

Fortunately, at least, the only people he seems to be able to rally to his support are his own parents (step-parent? I'm not clear on it) - who told my friend to "stop bothering us about him, and stop showing off by using such big words" (I am NOT making this up!)

They enable him. And, he keeps on going along doing the emotional yo-yo routine.
 NotElvisJunior
Joined: 6/8/2008
Msg: 905
view profile
History
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/18/2009 3:04:32 PM
itsallinthesoul wrote:

It is not unreasonable to tell a woman to remain celebate at all, not sure where you got the impression that I said that. I'm all for going victorian since I can actually manage quite well without sex and I'm sure a lot more women would accept that scenario than men would...

Ok, just wasn't sure - however, I would not, were I a betting man, place any bets on the statement that "a lot more women would accept that scenario than men would..."

Er, assuming you mean "remain celibate if you don't want to risk an unwilling father" since I'm not entirely sure what else a Victorian scenario might entail!


pbtipton83 (No relation to Glen Tipton, by any chance?) wrote:

its not just that we chose to have the kids just because they are "accidents." We choose to keep them because "we" decided to take responsability for our actions.

In addition to futureshock's question on whether you wanted to have a child ahead of time or not, I'm actually finding myself asking something I've asked earlier in the thread, or a variation thereof. Responsibility for:
- having sex?
- having unprotected sex?
- having unprotected sex, but one partner misled the other as to precautions being taken?
- having unprotected sex, but one partner misle the other as to willingness to be a parent in the event of a pregnancy?
etc etc
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 907
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/18/2009 4:04:43 PM


So woman A has sex and gets pregnant. She has to keep the pregnancy and give birth to take responsibility for having sex.

Woman B also has sex but doesn't get pregnant. Why doesn't she have to take responsibility for having sex?


Why doesn't Man A or Man B have to take responsibility for having sex?
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 909
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/18/2009 5:01:20 PM

Well bosoxfan ( go Jays) , it's like this. Men can't get pregnant.
The equality of responsibility ends for the man as soon as the sperm wiggles his way through the outer shell of the egg.

::chuckle::

I just meant, people keep talking about having to take responsibility for having sex. In my opinion, there is nothing better than having sex, and I don't feel I should, uh, have to "take responsibility" everytime I do it. I am smart, have sex with men I know well enough to know that they aren't poking every hole in sight, and I until I am married and ready to have another child, do it with a condom.

I don't think that having a baby is "taking responsibility for one's actions". Some of the people tooting this horn aren't even mature enough to realize that sometimes taking responsibility means realizing that you are incapable of doing something at a certain point in your life. If you are against abortion or are too far along, there is adoption as an option. Not choosing that option when you are not ready to be a parent, when there are plenty of people who are, is selfish.
 pinkprincess17
Joined: 6/14/2009
Msg: 910
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/18/2009 5:04:03 PM
Actually they were accidents. Obviously if they mother didnt want it and if the birth isnt planned its an accident. What else can you call it? seriously dont be dumb
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 911
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/18/2009 5:04:41 PM
Bosox if you keep up this whole logical posting thing...

I may have to hang a picture of you up in my room and burn incense under it. Maybe I could also cut out pieces of women's faces in magazines and make a huge collage that looks like you.

That wouldn't be creepy, would it?

Perhaps I should go post about it on AAgirl to see if it's ok.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 913
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/18/2009 5:25:07 PM


Actually they were accidents. Obviously if they mother didnt want it and if the birth isnt planned its an accident. What else can you call it? seriously dont be dumb


I have a sense that your definition of accident is a tad skewed.

Like the picture of your butt was an "accident", but still somehow managed to make it onto plenty of fish as your main photo?
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 914
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/18/2009 5:27:42 PM


I may have to hang a picture of you up in my room and burn incense under it. Maybe I could also cut out pieces of women's faces in magazines and make a huge collage that looks like you.

That wouldn't be creepy, would it?


The latter could be creepy, just because it would be incredibly time consuming.

But to be safe you should definitely go ask it in Ask a Girl. If nothing else, it could be pretty entertaining.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 917
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/18/2009 6:36:07 PM


I say, bs, you chose the risky behavior it's your own fault.


A lot of men don't know that they carry HPV, and most STD panels don't test for it, they have to request it.

My sister got HPV from her husband, she was a virgin before that. He had sex with his girlfriend before her, who had had sex with someone before him. Was that risky behavior?
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 919
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/18/2009 8:31:14 PM

If a woman has an accidental pregnancy, and her religion forbids an abortion, then the nature of true faith in that religion prevents her from having an abortion. No, it is NOT a choice.


I'll be honest here, I grew up in a religious household. Seventh-Day Adventist on my mother's side, and Catholic on my father's side. I myself am not religious at all, mainly because these religions have totally conflicting interpretations of the Bible, but that is beside the point.

I tend to keep my mouth shut about religious debates, but I am sick of the "Abortion is against my religion" excuse.

Nobody here seems to know what the Bible actually says. For one thing, it is not even in English, so our translation isn't even exactly correct, because murder was the word selected for lack of a more appropriate one. "Thou shalt not murder" is the 6th commandment of the Bible. Bear in mind, it's not even the 1st. The word in Hebrew is ??? (retzach), which actually refers to Criminal Homicide, death by a weapon or in unarmed combat (Defined in the book of Numbers, not sure of the verse).

Nowhere in the bible is abortion referred to as Criminal Homicide. Not even deaths in war are considered Criminal Homicide in the Bible.

Abortions during the first trimester are acceptable in many religions, including Judaism, who state that there is no soul for the first 40 days. In some cases, abortion is promoted, if for the health of the mother, or the possibility of complications of the fetus itself. This is not limited to Medical complications.

The religions I have studied thoroughly all have some clause to allow for abortion if it is "lesser of evil", or if it would lead to a worse situation. Again, these rules are nowhere limited to worse situations based medical health.

Some religions feel so strongly of premarital sex that women are put to death for having it.

It's fine to be against it for yourself, but don't say your opinions are untouchable because of your religion. Chances are, you don't even know what your religion's stance is. Religions based on the Bible are interpretations of several texts that have been translated, rewritten, translated and rewritten. Even the sermons you attend are interpretations of your Religion's interpretations.

And chances are, if you know so little about the actual Christian Religious views on Abortion, not just the ones you see in the media, you would think that premarital sex was also a sin, so you should feel just as strongly about that.

People talk about the harm the baby feels during an abortion. Though it is a disturbing experience for the mother, a fetus' nerve receptors have not even connected in the emotional portion of the brain yet, nor any pain receptors.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 923
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/18/2009 9:06:04 PM

[Nowhere in the bible is abortion referred to as Criminal Homicide. Not even deaths in war are considered Criminal Homicide in the Bible.]

Not that I really wanted to get into a biblical debate BUT I couldnt resist because there are discrepancies in your post. First off, nowhere in the bible is abortion even mentioned, nevertheless referred to as criminal homicide. Secondly, the "unarmed combat" portion of your definition strikes me though. Wouldn't a fetus be considered as "unarmed" in the struggle for life?

1) Abortion not being mentioned in the bible was exactly my point.
2) A fetus cannot survive outside of the womb, so no, it is not struggling for life.
3) It is not my definition. It is the Hebrew definition of Criminal Homicide.



The Bible does talk about unborn children though and it does so in such a way as to give value, meaning, and a purpose for their existence as well as consequences for those who harm them.

Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:4-5)

"And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, (Exodus 21:22-24)


I would agree that if you get an abortion (or miscarriage from an attack) against your will that the one who caused this or did this to you should be punished. Also, that verse specifically states that it is the mother and father's decision to decide the consequence.

Have you actually read the Bible? I was a Religious Studies minor in college, and I have read many version of the Holy Bible, and they differ in punctuation, word selection and other minor and major ways. You would be surprised how moving a comma can change an entire sentence's meaning in English.
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 925
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/18/2009 9:41:02 PM
Did you miss the part where I specifically stated first trimester and then 40 days?
 heterotic
Joined: 6/3/2008
Msg: 926
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/18/2009 10:05:23 PM
Ah! I found it.

On when a life has a soul:
Genesis 2:7 (King James Version)
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Clearly the Bible is not pro-life:
Isaiah 13:18 (King James Version)
18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

Hosea 13:16 (King James Version)
16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Luke 23:29 (King James Version)
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

While you're not having an abortion because of your interpretation of your religion, you'd better consider this:

Genesis 3:16 (King James Version)
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 927
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/19/2009 3:38:53 AM
You'd better stop Bosox.

You're going to make one of these women's head explode who have been going to church their whole lives but never actually read the bible.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 929
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/19/2009 4:08:56 AM

This thread is offensive to many people.......


So what?

My very existance is offensive to many people. I really don't give a sh*t if I offend people.

If we spent less time as a species worrying about who we offend and more time on the truth, the world would be a better place.
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 931
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/19/2009 5:04:27 AM
You know I love you...

But you didn't actually say anything there at all.

It was kind of a frustrated rambling.

Yet another reason why it's good you didn't join the debate team.

;)
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 936
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/19/2009 8:09:48 AM
If there is no point arguing over these things, why did you just post such a long argument?

::confused::
 8soldierfalcon8
Joined: 2/16/2009
Msg: 939
Unplanned Pregnancy Doesn'Have to Lead to Birth or Parenthood
Posted: 6/19/2009 8:16:36 AM
Doesn't that make your last statement oxymoronical then?
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