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 Tarnished_Knight
Joined: 3/5/2009
Msg: 342
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torturePage 15 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)
What I don't, nor ever will, understand is why all the love for those who engage in assymetrical warfare by attacking civilian targets / non-military targets, terrorist actions (again against non-military targets), hide behind the skirts (or burqa's ) of their women and their baby's nappies, promote / induce suicide/homicide bombings, and fight for no country or flag. Basically, love for those that engage in muderous acts for the sheer pleasure of murderous acts.

I for one need not rationalize "torture" if it saves one life of my fellow citizens. That citizen may one day be my son, his mother, or even your ass. Or it may be the life of the many people around the world that have thrown off the shackles of repressive totalitarian regimes. Folk that, for all intents and purposes, have raised themselves up to some form of democracy or representative republic.

By siding with or protecting those that wish to usher in regression to totalitarian regimes we weaken ourselves and strengthen them.

If the only message this "new" foe understands if their type or style of reprisal then we have not abased ourselves, we have only adopted the weapon of choice of the enemy. And do not deceive yourselves, all free people and lovers of freedom are their enemy. Even those of you that kiss their backsides.

TK - semper fidelis
 Outdoor2
Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 344
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/1/2009 11:08:03 PM

Check out snopes.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pershing.asp

Status: Undetermined

Did ya read it?

The first two paragraphs explain a lot...the rest shows Pershing as a man determined to kill as few as possible...but kill if necessary. NOTHING suggests he came even close to what you claim.

The closest is the part about Colonel Alexander Rodgers....beheadings...and the head sewn inside a pig carcass.....

Is this what you advocate?


Like in college, I refuse to do others homework.

Homework?
YOU entered the DEBATE.
YOU made CLAIMS.
It's YOUR onus to PROVE.

I mean really.... all you had to do was cite your source(s)...but you didn't...
...so I did....undetermined at best....patently false at worst....

Got any more sources?
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 345
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/2/2009 1:41:07 AM
What I don't, nor ever will, understand is why all the love for those who engage in assymetrical warfare by attacking civilian targets / non-military targets, terrorist actions (again against non-military targets), hide behind the skirts (or burqa's ) of their women and their baby's nappies, promote / induce suicide/homicide bombings, and fight for no country or flag. Basically, love for those that engage in muderous acts for the sheer pleasure of murderous acts.

What love?Because a person is against torture in no way means a person is "siding" with terrorist's.


By siding with or protecting those that wish to usher in regression to totalitarian regimes we weaken ourselves and strengthen them.



According to Human Rights Watch (www.hrw.org ), the use of torture was documented in the following countries in 2004 and 2005: China, Egypt, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Malaysia, Morocco, Nepal, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia, Syria, Turkey, Uganda, and Uzbekistan.

What is your point?If any?You want to follow the practices of the mentioned countries?N Korea Iran those are totalitarian countries.You people on the pro torture side I will never understand it goes against everything this country is supposed to stand for!
"Torture and abuse cost American lives...I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq...How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans."
-Matthew Alexander, leader of an interrogations team assigned to a Special Operations task force in Iraq in 2006.
Source: Washington Post

Marine generals to Cheney: Knock it off, mac
Tue, 09/15/2009 - 11:11am
Former Marine commandant Charles Krulak and former Marine general Joseph Hoar, who succeeded Schwarzkopf at Central Command, dress down former VP Cheney on the issue of torture. Good for them.

... we never imagined that we would feel duty-bound to publicly denounce a vice president of the United States, a man who has served our country for many years. In light of the irresponsible statements recently made by former Vice President Dick Cheney, however, we feel we must repudiate his dangerous ideas -- and his scare tactics.
This is an issue, they remind us, of both leadership and law and order. They might have added self-discipline, a characteristic that I think Dick "Fuck you, Leahy" Cheney seems to lack.

What leaders say matters. So when it comes to light, as it did recently, that U.S. interrogators staged mock executions and held a whirling electric drill close to the body of a naked, hooded detainee, and the former vice president winks and nods, it matters.

The Bush administration had already degraded the rules of war by authorizing techniques that violated the Geneva Conventions and shocked the conscience of the world. Now Cheney has publicly condoned the abuse that went beyond even those weakened standards, leading us down a slippery slope of lawlessness.

Doing the right thing, Krulak and Hoar conclude, "makes us all safer." This was the best article I read on the eighth anniversary of 9/11.

So the former commandant of the marine corps says torture has absolutely no value yet the pro torture crowd says it does.
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 346
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/2/2009 2:32:18 AM
I guess the following have more knowledge then the "24"crowd......

President Ronald Reagan
"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention [against Torture]. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today." (Message to the Senate on the Convention Against Torture, May 20, 1988)


Secretary of State Colin Powell, Four Star General and former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
"Torture of any kind is unacceptable ... Torture is torture is torture. It is unacceptable. It is not the way you treat human beings." (CNN, May 17, 2004)

Senator Lindsay Graham
"When you start looking at torture statutes and you look at ways around the spirit of the law . . . you're losing the moral high ground. And that was the counsel from the Secretary of State's office, that once you start down this road that it is very hard to come back. So I do believe we have lost our way." (Confirmation hearing of Judge Alberto Gonzales for Attorney General, January 6, 2005)

Senator John McCain, former Prisoner of War
Discussing international law, including the Geneva Conventions, "These conventions and these rules are in place for a reason because you get on a slippery slope and you don't know where to get off...The thing that separates us from the enemy is our respect for human rights." (Interview on ABC's "This Week")

Senator John Warner, Former Undersecretary of the Navy and current Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee
"[T]his mistreatment of prisoners represents an appalling and totally unacceptable breach of military regulations and conduct. The damage done to the reputation and credibility of our nation and the armed forces has the potential to undermine substantial gains and the sacrifices by our forces and their families and those of our allies fighting with us in the cause of freedom." (May 11, 2004)

The United States ratified the UN Convention against Torture in October 1994. Reporting on implementation to the Committee against Torture, the US Government wrote
"Torture is prohibited by law throughout the United States. It is categorically denounced as a matter of policy and as a tool of state authority. Every act constituting torture under the Convention constitutes a criminal offense under the law of the United States. No official of the government, federal, state or local, civilian or military, is authorized to commit or to instruct anyone else to commit torture. Nor may any official condone or tolerate torture in any form. No exceptional circumstances may be invoked as a justification of torture. US law contains no provision permitting otherwise prohibited acts of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment to be employed on grounds of exigent circumstances (for example, during a "state of public emergency") or on orders from a superior officer or public authority, and the protective mechanisms of an independent judiciary are not subject to suspension." (Report of the United States to the UN Committee against Torture, October 15, 1999, UN Doc. CAT/C/28/Add.5, February 9, 2000, para. 6.)

Oppose the Outsourcing of Torture


Amnesty International is concerned by the practice of "extraordinary renditions" in which the United States is transferring individuals for interrogation to countries with a record of using torture. U.S. laws and international treaties prohibit the transfer of suspects to countries where they are likely to face torture. Nonetheless, the U.S. Government is reported to have sent or been complicit in sending individuals to countries such as Jordan, Syria, Morocco and Egypt ? all countries the U.S. has criticized for practicing torture. The Administration has justified these transfers by obtaining "diplomatic assurances" from countries with dubious human rights records. Congress must act to ensure compliance with U.S. law and protection of basic human rights.

"Extraordinary renditions" are morally wrong and violate U.S. and international law. The U.S. ratified the UN Convention Against Torture and adopted legislation to help implement the treaty obligations through the Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act of 1998 ("FARRA"). The Torture Convention prohibits nations from deporting persons to a country where there is substantial grounds to believe that torture will occur. FARRA states: "It shall be the policy of the United States not to expel, extradite, or otherwise affect the involuntary return of any person to a country in which there are substantial grounds for believing the person would be in danger of being subjected to torture, regardless of whether the person is physically present in the United States."

Assurances from countries with such a long and well documented history of torture are insufficient. In its periodic review of the United States? compliance with the Torture Convention, the UN Committee Against Torture rejected the use of such assurances, stating: "When determining the applicability of its non-refoulement obligations under article 3 of the Convention, the State party should only rely on ?diplomatic assurances? in regard to States which do not systematically violate the Convention?s provisions." The Committee also found that the practice of rendition to countries with a record of torture violates US obligations under the treaty. In its report, the Committee stated: "The State party should apply the non-refoulement guarantee to all detainees in its custody, cease the rendition of suspects, in particular by its intelligence agencies, to States where they face a real risk of torture, in order to comply with its obligations under article 3 of the Convention."


Torture violates international and U.S. law.

The Geneva Conventions of 1949, ratified by the United States in 1955, classify torture and inhumane treatment of prisoners of war as war crimes.
The United Nations Convention Against Torture, ratified by the United States in 1987, clearly states that "no exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."
In 1994, Congress passed a federal anti-torture statute (18 U.S.C. 2340A).
"Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life."
In 1996, Congress passed The War Crimes Act (18 U.S.C. 2441) which made it a criminal offense for U.S. military personnel and U.S. nationals to commit war crimes as specified in the 1949 Geneva Conventions.
Historically, waterboarding is considered torture and is prohibited by the United States.
In 1947, the United States charged Japanese officer Yukio Asano with war crimes for waterboarding an American civilian. Asano received 15 years hard labor for his act. 7
In 1968, a picture of U.S. soldiers performing waterboarding on a prisoner in Vietnam reportedly triggered an investigation.7
In 2005, the U.S. Army Field Manual was revised to specifically prohibit torture, including waterboarding.

WWII veterans who were responsible for top-secret interrogations of Nazi prisoners of war denounced torture and other harsh interrogation techniques. 8
Henry Kolm was assigned to play chess with Hitler's deputy, Rudolph Hess. He reports, "We got more information out of a German general with a game of chess or Ping-Pong than they do today, with their torture."
An October 2005 letter to Congress from twenty-nine retired high ranking military officials, including former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General John Shalikashvili, noted:9
"[The Army Field Manual] also recognizes that torture and cruel treatment are ineffective methods, because they induce prisoners to say what their interrogators want to hear, even if it is not true, while bringing discredit upon the United States."
Commanding General David Petraeus wrote in a May 2007 letter to the troops: 10
Beyond the basic fact that [torture and other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy] are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone "talk;" however, what the individual says may be of questionable value. ...The techniques in the [Army Field Manual] work effectively and humanely in eliciting information from detainees."
A December 2007 letter to Congress from thirty high-ranking military officials states that:11
"Interrogation methods authorized by the Field Manual have proven effective in eliciting vital intelligence from dangerous enemy prisoners. Some have argued that the Field Manual rules are too simplistic for civilian interrogators. We reject that argument. Interrogation methods authorized in the Field Manual are sophisticated and flexible. And the principles reflected in the Field Manual are values that no U.S. agency should violate."
Torture and CID place all prisoners everywhere in danger.

The use of torture by one side in a conflict is often used by the other side as a justification for retaliation in kind. Americans worldwide are thus placed in greater danger of being tortured.
In the previously mentioned October 2005 letter to Congress from military officials, the authors note, "The abuse of prisoners hurts America's cause in the war on terror, endangers U.S. service members who might be captured by the enemy, and is anathema to the values Americans have held dear for generations."9
Torture and CID contradicts American values of justice and respect for human dignity. They damage our reputation across the world and our legacy to our children.

We cannot expect people in other nations to accept our statements in support of human rights and freedom as long as we use torture or acquiesce in the use of torture by other nations. This practice decreases respect worldwide for our nation's values and goals.
Human instinct repels at the image of bound and naked prisoners being subjected to whatever cruelties the mind can construct. Such images are not in line with the ideals upon which our nation was founded.
Commanding General David Petraeus wrote in his May 2007 letter to the troops:10
"What sets us apart from our enemies in this fight. . . . is how we behave. In everything we do, we must observe the standards and values that dictate that we treat noncombatants and detainees with dignity and respect."
Additional Details

United Nations Convention Against Torture (1984) Article I defines tortures as, "Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."
The Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 (DTA), "contains provisions that (1) require Department of Defense (DOD) personnel to employ United States Army Field Manual guidelines while interrogating detainees, and (2) prohibit the "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment of persons under the detention, custody, or control of the United States Government." It "does not require non-DOD agencies, such as non-military intelligence and law enforcement agencies, to employ Field Manual guidelines with respect to interrogations they conduct." 12
Military Commissions Act (MCA), passed in 2006 the law raised concerns about its impact on anti-torture efforts. According to Amnesty International the MCA will "Permit, in violation of international law, the use of evidence extracted under cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, or as a result of 'outrages upon personal dignity, particularly humiliating or degrading treatment', as defined under international law." The American Civil Liberties Union notes, "Under the Military Commissions Act, the president has the power to define what is - and what is not - torture and abuse, even though the Geneva Conventions already provide us with a guide."


1 Mikkelson, Randall. "U.S. Attorney General, Lawmakers Clash on Torture." Reuters. 30 Jan 2008.
2 Mikkelson, Randall. "CIA Says Used Waterboarding on Three Suspects." Reuters. 5 Feb 2008.

3"EU Endorses Damning Report on CIA." BBC News. 14 Feb 2007.
4 American Civil Liberties Union. (2005) "Fact Sheet: Extraordinary Rendition." available at: http://www.aclu.org/safefree/extraordinaryrendition/22203res20051206.html

5 McIlroy, Anne. "Tortured Canadian wins battle for Truth" The Guardian. 2 Oct 2006.

6 Minister of Public Works and Government Services. (2006) "Report of the Events Relating to Maher Arar." available at http://www.ararcommission.ca/eng/AR_English.pdf

7 Pincus, Walter. "Waterboarding Historically Controversial." Washington Post 5 October 2006.
8 Dvorak, Petula. "Fort Hunt's Quiet Men Break Silence on WWII." Washington Post 6 October 2007.

9 Hoar, Joseph et al. "An Open Letter to Senator John McCain." 3 Oct 2005. available at: http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/pdf/mccain-100305.pdf

10 Petraeus, David. "An Open Letter to Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines and Coast Guardsmen serving in Multi-National Force Iraq." 10 May 2007. available at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/documents/petraeus_values_051007.pdf

11 Hoar, Joseph et al. "An Open Letter to Senator John Rockefeller." 12 December 2007. available at: http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/news/2007/071212-letter_ret-mil-ldrs.htm

12 U.S. Library of Congress: Congressional Research Service. (2007) "Interrogation of Detainees: Overview of the McCain Amendment" available at: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/RL33655.pdf

 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 349
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/3/2009 4:14:05 AM

......Jews And Gypsies weren't Prisoners of war.


Neither a Cowboy or a Mad Man can make their own rules.............

There is a World Standard....


At least some people get it.
 eeeo4U
Joined: 6/25/2007
Msg: 350
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/5/2009 9:54:07 AM
There is a problem with locking up our Al Quaeda/Taliban captives with regular criminals (Ordinary Decent Criminals as the Brits call them). They tend to proselytize those locked up alongside them, and feed off their feelings of disenfranchisement. Apparently gangbangers are willing to give up pork and liquor in exchange for a pass on beating women, and the right to strike at the government that imprisons them...
 laxref41
Joined: 7/20/2008
Msg: 352
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/6/2009 5:44:36 AM
"Actually I love it. However, our constitution does not apply in foreign countries."

Well, our prisoners are either criminal terrorists on American soil or they're prisoners of war. In the former, they get the protection of the Constitution as criminals... in the latter they are granted the protections of the Geneva Convention which our Constitution says is law since we signed it.

Never mind General Pershing and pork... why don't we just take their clothes, shave their heads, pull their teeth, gas them to death and cremate them in ovens? We could have our own final solution... since they're not afforded the protections of our Constitution... according to you.
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 354
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/6/2009 1:47:29 PM
"Extraordinary renditions" are morally wrong and violate U.S. and international law. The U.S. ratified the UN Convention Against Torture and adopted legislation to help implement the treaty obligations through the Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act of 1998 ("FARRA"). The Torture Convention prohibits nations from deporting persons to a country where there is substantial grounds to believe that torture will occur. FARRA states: "It shall be the policy of the United States not to expel, extradite, or otherwise affect the involuntary return of any person to a country in which there are substantial grounds for believing the person would be in danger of being subjected to torture, regardless of whether the person is physically present in the United States."

The United Nations Convention Against Torture, ratified by the United States in 1987, clearly states that "no exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture."
In 1994, Congress passed a federal anti-torture statute (18 U.S.C. 2340A).
"Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life."
In 1996, Congress passed The War Crimes Act (18 U.S.C. 2441) which made it a criminal offense for U.S. military personnel and U.S. nationals to commit war crimes as specified in the 1949 Geneva Conventions.

A hell of a lot of law's are being broken.
 sd_matt
Joined: 7/9/2006
Msg: 355
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/7/2009 12:22:31 AM
Charles I agree with you for once.

"I'm going to give this guy credit. He put his money where his mouth was, and changed what his mouth said.

I have no idea what else this guy does, but seriously, you got to give him credit in this instance."
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 356
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/9/2009 4:50:13 PM
OP, I'm glad I came across this post. I've long thought that those who believe waterboarding is not torture should be subjected to it themselves.

One of my friends who is in the military reminds me that if we torture captives, we can expect our own people to be tortured if they are captured. After all, if these activities are not torture and we do them to our prisoners, we can't complain if someone does them to us, can we?
 hard starboard
Joined: 6/21/2008
Msg: 357
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/9/2009 5:00:32 PM
Here is someone who I think would actually benefit from a good waterboarding.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/crime/2009-10-08/story/jacksonville_teen_charged_with_drowning_puppies
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 358
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/9/2009 5:14:31 PM
Here's another guy who did the same thing and came to the same conclusions. Conservative writer Christopher Hitchins said, "Well, then, if waterboarding is not torture, there is no such thing as torture."
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808
 laxref41
Joined: 7/20/2008
Msg: 359
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/10/2009 2:40:59 PM
"They are also located in CUBA where the US Constitution does not apply.
Therefore they are not entitled to either protection under the Geneva convention or the US Constitution. Being a terrorist precludes that."

Guantanemo is soverign U.S. territory... sorry. Do you think if a U.S. soldier commits a crime there that we won't prosecute him because it borders on Cuba?

And alas... the Third Geneva Convention, Article 4... does not state that combatants have to be members of a country's army... nor does it require them to wear a particular uniform... nor does it require them to have rank... and i quote...
4.1.3 Members of armed forces who profess allegiance to an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
4.1.6 Any inhabitants of a territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces...

Sorry... but this has become an illegal internment camp.
 sd_matt
Joined: 7/9/2006
Msg: 360
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/12/2009 6:40:43 PM
Al Queda and the Taliban have no issue torturing us.

I have no issue torturing those observed fighting us on the battlefield. Same with those that give $$.

Make your enemy suffer until he gives up.
 msquared
Joined: 8/31/2004
Msg: 361
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/12/2009 8:12:00 PM

Al Queda and the Taliban have no issue torturing us.


Be careful on that slope. I hear it is fairly easy to lose your footing on it.
 sum1reel
Joined: 6/5/2005
Msg: 362
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/19/2009 9:37:55 PM
Indiscriminate torture(as a means of extracting a confession) should not be conducted across the board.

It should be reserved for special cases such as extracting vital information from 'Big-Fish' caught (high ranking members clearly culpable ...such as Sheikh K. Muhamed) and who are reluctant in giving (correct) answers when interrogated.

Its such notorious individuals whose activities and involvement are not disputable.....and who possess invaluable information that may save countless lives (if obtained).

If SKM knew that he would not be subject to torture (rather quickly), there would be no reason for him to divulge secret information...at least not immediately, if at all!

Thus torture should be reserved only for special cases in which the individual is a known participant, and whose rank allows him the privilege of having the type of information that low level drones are not apt to have.
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 364
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 10/23/2009 6:23:15 PM
A few things to consider about torture:

1) The "confessions" it produces are dubious. Look, if this guy gave up after 7 seconds - under real circumstances he'd probably say "anything" to get them to stop. Unless he chose to die. Waterboarding does not "simulate" drowning, it *is* drowning, slow and controlled.

2) We are signatories to the Geneva Convention and have agreed not to torture.

3) If we start torturing prisoners, then we have no grounds to object if others torture *our* people when they are held prisoner.

For all these reasons, many military people oppose torture.
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