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 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 55
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torturePage 2 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)
Exactly admitting to anything and everything.. So do it enough times and I bet the info gets pretty accurate but if your a good interogator/torturer specialist you will know when the truth comes out. Then amazingly, they weigh this extracted info from other info from maybe more credible sources and the puzzle pieces start falling into place.. This all seems like new techniques that only the monster we affectionately call Cheney could possible dream up but I been thinking the intelligence community has been working and perfecting all these little puzzle peices for years and years, and there is a huge chance that they don't just rely solely on the "Waterboarding" technique although I still think its brilliant.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 58
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 12:17:38 AM
My dear Wormwood,

Job well done on bringing a well-intentioned soul closer to our fold. Once we can get people to approve of torture for "the right reasons" (some even with unrestrained glee-- how glorious) it is a much easier task to fully wrest them from the arms of the Enemy.

Imagine for a moment just how easily they would deny the Enemy if subjected to the very torture they condone. The irony! It is merely fantasy, though. I really doubt that an approach that clumsy would help our cause; the Enemy and his damn near boundless mercy and understanding-- it makes me sick just thinking about it! No, just stick with the current proven techniques. Under my tutelage, our success is all but gauranteed.

Sincerely,

Your Uncle Screwtape


Credit: the late CS Lewis
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 59
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 2:17:12 AM
Exactly admitting to anything and everything.. So do it enough times and I bet the info gets pretty accurate but if your a good interogator/torturer specialist you will know when the truth comes out.


Interrogation torture doesn't really work. Let me give you an example Say (and I’m just using this for reference purposes) that CharlesEdm was one of the main henchmen working for some big criminal org and we captured him. Now, you and I are the interrogators and we needed information on his criminal org, but he refused to talk to us about it in the interrogation room. So we then precede to the next step by waterboarding him to get the information out of him which now seems to be working, but one problem. We have no idea if he is telling us the real truth. I mean, yeah the information that he is providing us now may sound good but we still have no idea if he is telling us the truth or telling us what we just want to hear so that he can get out of being waterboarded. That is the big problem with Interrogation torture.
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 61
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 5:50:35 AM
Interogations work, I suppose you people have never watched one of those cop shows. When people are unsure of what is happening to them and fear getting the whole brunt of the punishment they crack like easter eggs. Your not in intelligence field probably haven't any training what so ever on the effects of interogation techniques .. The human spirit is strong but everyone has there cracking point. Being able to find it and exploit it is something you learn, Its more Psychological then physical. Even though Mancow was never in any danger of drowning cause thats why they were doing it his mind still feared he might drown and the fear is what makes people willing to give up the truth.

The last thing is. You talk about how these people are going to admit to something they didn't do just to get you to stop. Well could be that they would, In the situation where waterboarding was used the people who were waterboarded were already known terrorists. They didn't have to admit to anything they didn't do. I believe it was Kalid Sheik Muhammad (waterboarded) that boasted before capture that he was the one who was responsible fore cutting off Daniel Pearls head. He probably had all kinds of other goodies to give up .... Reguardless of what he admitted to or didn't under interogation you already know the kind of man he is. Why defend someone who never gave a rats hiney about a innocent man, He didn't just drop water on his face he viciously sawed his head of probably while he screamed and tried to get away.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 65
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 9:43:13 AM

Apparently when asked what would Jesus do?

Yes, I have seen that phenomenon played out with the religious right-wing pundits and my own family. The problem is that when looking at what Jesus did, the answer is to not resist and get tortured and killed. Even staunch Christians do not like that scenario.

As has been said, in matters of being threatened, WWJD is interpreted as "What would Jack (Bauer) do?" Many people believe in getting the right imaginary person for the job.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 66
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 2:22:22 PM

In the situation where waterboarding was used the people who were waterboarded were already known terrorists.


And how many of those that were waterboarded acutally gave up any valid infomation?



Rep. Don Manzullo apparently disagrees with his GOP colleague John Shimkus on the issue of "enhanced interrogations," according to the comments he made an interview with WGN Radio's John Williams this morning. Listen to this particular exchange, in which the Rockford Republican acknowledges -- after Williams recounted the case of Abu Zubaydah -- that "apparently waterboarding doesn't work"

http://www.progressillinois.com/2009/4/28/manzullo-on-torture
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 67
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 4:41:09 PM
I never said cops water board on TV . What I refered to was they 're interogation techniques. Waterboarding is one form of interogation, and reguardless of what they say on liberal news forums it isn't the only valuable way to extract info. I realize of course you all have made up your mind and really aren't here to discuss facts but to some how make the former administration evil water wielding tyrants.

If you want proof that the interogation worked then find out how many lethal attacks by terrorists happened after 911. and then how many happen the previous 8 years. I can think of The USS Cole, Kobar towers (not sure about the spelling) it may of been in Saudi but it was against american troops. There was the first attempt to bomb the Twin towers which if the system had worked and Clinton and his admistration had done his job, possibly the 2nd and most deadly attack would never happened either.

If i remember correctly that Gorellic woman appointed by Clinton was a key factor in the fact that the intelligence communities were blocked from sharing valuble intelligence between agencies. He also had a few opprotunities to take the Osama Bin Laden into US custody but he just didn't have time for things like that. That really turned out to be an OOOOPS.
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 68
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 4:49:46 PM
I am sure I read something about an eye for and eye in the bible. So biblically it says ones punishment should suit his crime. I suppose if you cut off someones head cause you hate they're racial background, doesn't justify such a cruel act as pouring water on their face while restrained.
 wisguyingb
Joined: 1/5/2008
Msg: 69
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 5:08:30 PM
NBL, even Keith Olbermann gives ManCow credit for doing this. Olbermann also donated 10 thousand dollars to ManCows charity. (Veterans of valor)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcNA5ZxkCxY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EoCeAapQqM
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 70
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 5:37:00 PM
Okay, not that this isn't off topic, but I just had to respond ...
I am sure I read something about an eye for and eye in the bible.
Really? Well then how does that apply to the "bullies of the Middle East/killer" Zionists (Jews?) and what they have been doing to the Palestinians (Muslims?) then? I mean after what the "bullies of the Middle East/killer" Zionists (Jews?) have been putting the Palestinians (Muslims?) through for the past 70 years ... what do the Palestinians (Muslims)get to do to the "bullies of the Middle East/killer" Zionists (Jews?) ... eh?

OT ...
I think anyone who doesn't see water boarding as torture should have to be put through it ... then let's hear how fast they cried "uncle" and if they also wet their pants.

I think the "Shrub" and his gang of thugs should go first ...
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 71
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 5:39:40 PM

If you want proof that the interogation worked then find out how many lethal attacks by terrorists happened after 911.

Even by this fallacious standard of proof, the interrogation fails the test:

March 11, 2004: suicide terrorist attacks shake several train stations on Spain's capital Madrid, killing 190 people and injuring 1,247.

July 7, 2005: suicide terrorist attacks shake London transport system killing 52 people and injuring 700.

http://www.netipedia.com/index.php/21st_century#Worldwide_deaths_from_war_and_terror_attacks
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 73
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 5:51:05 PM
So your saying American citizen Daniel Pearl deserved to have his Head cut off because he was a jew?? How many Palestinians did he kill personally.
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 74
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 6:21:32 PM
Clinton speech 2002,

Clinton: So we tried to be quite aggressive with them [al Qaeda]. We got – well, Mr. bin Laden used to live in Sudan. He was expelled from Saudi Arabia in 1991, then he went to Sudan. And we'd been hearing that the Sudanese wanted America to start dealing with them again. They released him. At the time, 1996, he had committed no crime against America, so I did not bring him here because we had no basis on which to hold him, though we knew he wanted to commit crimes against America. So I pleaded with the Saudis to take him, 'cause they could have. But they thought it was a hot potato and they didn't and that's how he wound up in Afghanistan.



Clinton admits to knowing as far back as 1996 that Bin Ladin had intentions to murder and terrorize the american people and he ignored them for years! Bush and Cheney in office less then 9 months and they obviously are the bad guys. They ignored one memo most likely buried in a mountain of intelligence memos.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 75
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 6:45:38 PM



I am sure I read something about an eye for and eye in the bible.
Really? Well then how does that apply to the "bullies of the Middle East/killer" Zionists (Jews?) and what they have been doing to the Palestinians (Muslims?) then?
... what do the Palestinians (Muslims)get to do to the "bullies of the Middle East/killer" Zionists (Jews?) ... eh?

So your saying American citizen Daniel Pearl deserved to have his Head cut off because he was a jew??
Are you saying that those men who were tortured for no other reason but to say there was a tie-in/connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam (even though we knew full well there wasn't) ... deserved it?

They even killed one of them in Libya so he couldn't tell what they did to him later. Thank goodness a Human Rights worker found out anyways. The "C0ck TT (The Torturer) Cheney" ordered that man to be tortured until he confessed to some sort of tie-in to Saddam. Even though they knew it was a lie, they still had Colin Powell present "the lie" to the American people so we could illegally invade a sovereign nation.

Now consider too all the lives that were lost because of that ...
**all the American military service men lives.
**all the Iraqi civilian lives
**all the lives of all the people who were maimed and mutilated by that illegal war
**all the lives of the American military (and no doubt Iraqi civilian) lives ... over 300,000 American military personnel ... who either have head injuries that cause them to be mentally unstable or psychological problems that also cause mental instability ... most who will never be able to support their families again.
Are you saying all that was justified? Are you saying that was okay just because some sadistic freak ("C0ck TT Cheney") had to torture someone into falsely confessing something so he could illegally invade a sovereign nation (and while he was at it, attempt to steal their natural resources)?

How many Palestinians did he kill personally.
Since he did not live in Israel, I doubt he did, but we can't be sure about his Zionist father ... eh?

I have read where "Christians" take it personally when their fellow (so-called) Christians are murdered. Are the Muslims not entitled to the same feelings? Are they not allowed to feel as deeply for their fellow Muslims?

While I'm sorry that Danny was killed, I do not see that his death is any reason to torture a man into falsely confessing something that caused us to commit war on a sovereign nation and kill hundreds of thousands of people ... for obviously no good reason.

OT ...
I remain with my view of this ... I think anyone who doesn't see water boarding as torture should have to be put through it ... then let's hear how fast they cried "uncle" and if they also wet their pants.

I think the "Shrub" and his gang of thugs should go first ...
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 76
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 7:55:28 PM
wow, thats a lot of hate and misleading info in one post it would take more time then i have to even start and then ultimately you would still believe the way you do so basically a waste of time.

I will say one thing pertaining to "Danny's" Death.. I would volunteer to be waterboarded over and over by****Cheney before I would volunteer to be place in the hands of the man who took "Danny's " life. Maybe you would choose the murder believing that he would spare your life because you pretend to care about his, but he will never ever pretend to care. If your lucky he would make it a quick death if your not then he will make it slow so he can watch the horror , confusion and betrayal on your face as the knife's seraded and sharp edge rips at the tender flesh of your neck cutting the juglar and esophagus till it hits the neck bone. Enjoying the cracking of bone and cartilage as the knife breaks through and quickly finishes the job. Years later ... your death means nothing because your murderer was offered way more compassion then you were ever offered. Thats very disturbing. Your compassion for the people who live this way and justify this murderous contempt for human life is inconceivable.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 77
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 8:12:36 PM
I'm just wondering where are your statistics that provide any actual evidence to backup your claim that waterboarding does actually work in getting real legit information out of terrorist. I mean that's what most of us have been waiting for and you are still yet to provide any actual evidence on that.
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 79
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 9:39:27 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258817,00.html

WASHINGTON — Khalid Sheikh Mohammed portrayed himself as Al Qaeda's most ambitious operational planner in a confession to a U.S. military tribunal that said he planned and supported 31 terrorist attacks, topped by Sept. 11, that killed thousands of innocent victims since the early 1990s.

The gruesome attacks range from the suicide hijackings of Sept. 11, 2001 — which killed nearly 3,000 — to a 2002 shooting on an island off Kuwait that killed a U.S. Marine, according to an account released by the Pentagon.

Many plots, including a previously undisclosed plan to kill several former U.S. presidents, were never carried out or were foiled by international counterterror authorities.

"I was responsible for the 9/11 operation from A to Z," Mohammed said in a statement read Saturday during a Combatant Status Review Tribunal at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Mohammed's confession was read by a member of the U.S. military who is serving as his personal representative.

The Pentagon released a 26-page transcript of the closed-door proceedings on Wednesday night. Some material was omitted, and it wasn't possible to immediately confirm details. The document refers to locations for which the United States and other nations have issued terrorism warnings based on what they deemed credible threats from 1993 to the present.Mohammed, known as KSM among government officials, was last seen haggard after his capture in March 2003, when he was photographed in a dingy white T-shirt with an over-stretched neck. He disappeared for more than three years into a secret detention system run by the CIA.

In his first public statements since his capture, his radical ideology and self-confidence came through. He expressed regret for taking the lives of children and said Islam doesn't give a "green light" to killing.

• Click here to see the Pentagon's transcript of the interview (pdf).

Yet he finds room for exceptions. "The language of the war is victims," he said.

He also said some people "consider George Washington as hero. Muslims many of them are considering Usama bin Laden. He is doing same thing. He is just fighting. He needs his independence."

In laying out his role in 31 attacks, his words drew Al Qaeda closer to plots of the early 1990s than the group has previously been linked, including the 1993 World Trade Center truck bombing in which six people died.

Six people with links to global terror networks were convicted in federal court and sentenced to life in prison for that attack.

• VIDEO: Mohammed Admits Planning Sept. 11 'From A to Z'

Mohammed made clear that al-Qaida wanted to down a second trans-Atlantic aircraft during would-be shoe bomber Richard Reid's operation.

And he confessed to the beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in a section of the statement that was excised from the public document, The Associated Press has learned. Pearl was abducted in January 2002 in Pakistan while researching a story on Islamic militancy. Mohammed has long been a suspect in the slaying, which was captured on video.

President Bush announced that Mohammed and 13 other alleged terror operatives had been moved from secret CIA prisons to the U.S. Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay last year. They are considered the 14 most significant captures since 9/11.

The military began the hearings last Friday to determine whether the 14 should be declared "enemy combatants" who can be held indefinitely and prosecuted by military tribunals.

If the 14 are declared enemy combatants, as expected, the military would then draft and file charges against them. The detainees would be tried under the new military commissions law signed by Bush in October.

The military barred reporters or other independent observers from the sessions for the 14 operatives and is limiting the information it provides about them, arguing that it wants to prevent the disclosure of sensitive information.

Legal experts have criticized the U.S. decision, and The Associated Press filed a letter of protest, arguing that it would be "an unconstitutional mistake to close the proceedings in their entirety."

The transcripts refer to a claim by Mohammed that he was tortured by the CIA, although he said he was not under duress at Guantanamo when he confessed to his role in the attacks. The CIA has said its interrogation practices are legal, and it does not use torture.

Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch, questioned the legality of the closed-door sessions and whether the confession was actually the result of torture.

"We won't know that unless there is an independent hearing," he said. "We need to know if this purported confession would be enough to convict him at a fair trial or would it have to be suppressed as the fruit of torture?"

In listing the 28 attacks he planned and another three he supported, Mohammed said he tried to kill international leaders including Pope John Paul II, President Clinton and Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf.

He said he planned the 2002 bombing of a Kenya beach resort frequented by Israelis and the failed missile attack on an Israeli passenger jet after it took off from Mombasa, Kenya.

He also said he was responsible for the bombing of a nightclub in Bali, Indonesia. In 2002, 202 were killed when two nightclubs there were bombed.

Other plots he said he was responsible for included planned attacks against the Sears Tower in Chicago, the Empire State Building and New York Stock Exchange in New York City, the Panama Canal, and Big Ben and Heathrow Airport in London — none of which happened.

The Pentagon also released transcripts of the hearings of Abu Faraj al-Libi and Ramzi Binalshibh. Both refused to attended the hearings, although al-Libi submitted a statement claiming that the hearings are unfair and that he will not attend unless it is corrected.

"The detainee is in a lose-lose situation," he said.

Al-Libi, whose name means he is a Libyan, reportedly masterminded two bombings 11 days apart in Pakistan in December 2003 that targeted Musharraf for his support of the U.S.-led war on terror.

Binalshibh, a Yemeni, is suspected of helping Mohammed with the Sept. 11 attack plan on New York City and Washington and is also linked to a foiled plot to crash aircraft into London's Heathrow Airport. His hearing was conducted in his absence.
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 82
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 10:58:27 PM
It it well known that Kalid was water boarded an infamous 183 times in a 3 year period and wow with the wealth of knowledge we got from him .... it must of been EFFECTIVE interogation. I read it somewhere probably find it yourself if you really cared.
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 84
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 11:31:42 PM
Here we go again with the "24 crowd" cheering for torture.

Waterboarding Is Torture, Says Ex-Navy Instructor





By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, November 9, 2007; Page A04

A former Navy survival instructor subjected to waterboarding as part of his military training told Congress yesterday that the controversial tactic should plainly be considered torture and that such a method was never intended for use by U.S. interrogators because it is a relic of abusive totalitarian governments.

Malcolm Wrightson Nance, a counterterrorism specialist who taught at the Navy's Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) school in California, likened waterboarding to drowning and said those who experience it will say or do anything to make it stop, rendering the information they give nearly useless.


Waterboarding is torture. It’s a violation of Section 2441: U.S. Military Code on War Crimes; the Geneva Convention of 1949, and the U.N. Convention Against Torture. Waterboarding dehumanizes the perpetrator, violates the dignity of the victim, and endangers our soldiers.

Rear Admiral (ret.) John Hutson, former Judge Advocate General for the Navy
"The United States has been a strong, unwavering advocate for human rights and the rule of law for as long as you and I have been alive. I'm not ready to throw in the towel on that just because we are in a battle with some terrible people. In fact, in a war like this, when we are tempted to respond in kind, we must hold ever more dearly to the values that make us Americans. Torture, or "cruel, inhuman or degrading" conduct, are not part of our national character. Another objection is that torture doesn't work. All the literature and experts say that if we really want usable information, we should go exactly the opposite way and try to gain the trust and confidence of the prisoners. Torture will get you information, but it's not reliable. Eventually, if you don't accidentally kill them first, torture victims will tell you something just to make you stop. It may or may not be true. If you torture 100 people, you'll get 100 different stories. If you gain the confidence of 100 people, you may get one valuable story." (Legal Affairs "Debate Club" January 27, 2005)

Bob Baer, former CIA official
"And torture -- I just don't think it really works. I think it works for the Egyptians, the Syrians, the Saudis, who want to scare the hell out of people. But you don't get the truth. What happens when you torture people is, they figure out what you want to hear and they tell you." (Interview with Slate, May 12, 2004)

Lawrence Korb, former Naval Intelligence officer and Assistant Secretary of Defense during the Reagan Administration
"The highest levels of the U.S. military, the Defense Department, and the White House must be held accountable for putting our troops at greater risk and diminishing America's moral authority across the globe." (Article co-written by John Halpin, Center for American Progress)


Michael Scheuer, formerly a senior CIA official in the Counter-Terrorism Center
"I personally think that any information gotten through extreme methods of torture would probably be pretty useless because it would be someone telling you what you wanted to hear." (60 minutes "CIA flying suspects to Torture?" March 6, 2005)


Army Field Manual 34-52 Chapter 1
"The use of force, mental torture, threats, insults, or exposure to unpleasant and inhumane treatment of any kind is prohibited by law and is neither authorized nor condoned by the US Government. Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

President Ronald Reagan
"The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention [against Torture]. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today." (Message to the Senate on the Convention Against Torture, May 20, 1988)


Secretary of State Colin Powell, Four Star General and former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
"Torture of any kind is unacceptable ... Torture is torture is torture. It is unacceptable. It is not the way you treat human beings." (CNN, May 17, 2004)


Senator John McCain, former Prisoner of War
Discussing international law, including the Geneva Conventions, "These conventions and these rules are in place for a reason because you get on a slippery slope and you don't know where to get off...The thing that separates us from the enemy is our respect for human rights." (Interview on ABC's "This Week")


Senator John Warner, Former Undersecretary of the Navy and current Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee
"[T]his mistreatment of prisoners represents an appalling and totally unacceptable breach of military regulations and conduct. The damage done to the reputation and credibility of our nation and the armed forces has the potential to undermine substantial gains and the sacrifices by our forces and their families and those of our allies fighting with us in the cause of freedom." (May 11, 2004)


Dan Coleman, retired FBI agent
"It?s human nature. People don?t cooperate with you unless they have some reason to." He added, "Brutalization doesn?t work. We know that. Besides, you lose your soul." (The New Yorker "Outsourcing Torture" by Jane Mayer)

As for mancow I give the guy credit where it is do He said it was torture.

I am also waiting for any expert testimony that torture works!
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 85
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/27/2009 11:37:55 PM
Some more...
General David Petraeus, Commanding General of Iraq:

“Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. That would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone ‘talk;’ however, what the individual says may be of questionable value. In fact, our experience in applying the interrogations laid out in the Army Field Manual….that was published last year shows that the techniques in the manual work effectively and humanely in eliciting information from detainees.” [Open Letter, 5/10/07]

Lt. General Michael D. Maples, Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, asked by Sen. Carl Levin if he thinks waterboarding is consistent with the Geneva Conventions:

“No, sir, I don’t.”

Asked if it he believes it’s humane:

“No, sir. I think it would go beyond that bound.”
[Testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee, 2/27/08]

Rear Admiral Donald J. Guter, (Ret.) Judge Advocate General, Navy, Rear Admiral John D. Hutson, (Ret.) Judge Advocate General, Navy, Major General John L. Fugh, (Ret.) Judge Advocate General, Army, Rear Admiral Donald J. Guter, (Ret.) Judge Advocate General, Navy:

“As far as we’re concerned, this shouldn’t be a point the United States should have to debate… There’s no disconnect between human rights and national security…They’re synergistic. One doesn’t work without the other for very long.” [Pittsburgh Post Gazette, 12/10/07]

Maj. General Evan Wallach, (Ret.) Judge Advocate General, Nevada National Guard:

“The United States knows quite a bit about waterboarding. The U.S. government — whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community — has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it… We know that U.S. military tribunals and U.S. judges have examined certain types of water-based interrogation and found that they constituted torture. That’s a lesson worth learning. The study of law is, after all, largely the study of history. The law of war is no different. This history should be of value to those who seek to understand what the law is — as well as what it ought to be.” [Washington Post, 11/4/07]
Brigadier General David M. Brahms, (Ret.) Staff Judge Advocate to the Commandant:

“Waterboarding is inhumane, it is torture, and it is illegal… This is a critically important issue - but it is not, and never has been, a complex issue, and even to suggest otherwise does a terrible disservice to this nation… Waterboarding detainees amounts to illegal torture in all circumstances. To suggest otherwise - or even to give credence to such a suggestion - represents both an affront to the law and to the core values of our nation.” [Letter, 11/2/07]

General Joseph Hoar, (Ret.), General David M. Maddox, (Ret.), Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn, (Ret.), Vice Admiral Albert Konetzni Jr. Ret.), Maj. General Paul Eaton, (Ret.), Rear Admiral Don Guter, (Ret.), Maj. General Melvyn Montano, (Ret.), Brig. General David Brahms, (Ret.), Brig. General David Irvine, (Ret.), Brig. General Murray Sagsveen, (Ret.), General Paul J. Kern, (Ret.), General Merrill A. McPeak, (Ret.), Lt. General Claudia J. Kennedy, (Ret.), Lt. General Charles Otstott, (Ret.), Maj. General Eugene Fox, (Ret.), Maj. General Fred E. Haynes, (Ret.), Maj. General Gerald T. Sajer, (Ret.), Brig. General James P. Cullen, (Ret.), Brig. General John H. Johns, (Ret.), Brig. General Anthony Verrengia, (Ret.), General Charles Krulak, (Ret.), Admiral Stansfield Turner, (Ret.), Lt. General Donald L. Kerrick, (Ret.), Lt. General Harry E. Soyster, (Ret.), Maj. General John L. Fugh, (Ret.), Rear Admiral John D. Hutson, (Ret.), Maj. General Antonio M. Taguba, (Ret.), Brig. General Evelyn P. Foote, (Ret.), Brig. General Richard O’Meara, (Ret.), Brig. General Stephen N. Xenakis, (Ret.):

“We believe it is vital to the safety of our men and women in uniform that the United States not sanction the use of interrogation methods it would find unacceptable if inflicted by the enemy against captured Americans…The current situation, in which the military operates under one set of interrogation rules that are public and the CIA operates under a separate, secret set of rules, is unwise and impractical…What sets us apart from our enemies in this fight…is how we behave. In everything we do, we must observe the standards and values that dictate that we treat noncombatants and detainees with dignity and respect.” [Letter, 12/12/07]
 Drew178
Joined: 4/20/2009
Msg: 86
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 12:36:28 AM
It sure as heck isn't torture when the guy can stop it anytime he wishes
same as the three Al Qaeda guys could have stopped it anytime they wished to cooperate. Golly, all you have to do is deal in good faith.

Wondering where the memos on what they said after being forced to cooperate went .............
 bigshrek
Joined: 11/15/2007
Msg: 88
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 2:42:01 AM
I'm wondering...have any of you folks actually watched the entire Waterboarding show that Mancow made?? or just the fast U-tube version??

Watch the ENTIRE episode. Carefully.

It strikes me as a total showboat ratings grabber...he never really wanted to give a real attempt, just get splashed & give up so he could make some ratings. Just my observation.

Got to give him props for picking a good issue to get some serious ratings for a few weeks, though.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 90
view profile
History
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 7:34:19 AM

wow, thats a lot of hate and misleading info in one post it would take more time then i have to even start
What? Not prepared to do the work it might take to refute that?

Not really up on the current information available about the torture for false information that went on under the careful guidance of "Cock TT Cheney"? You mean they didn't offer that course at "Shrub University"? Gee too bad. I hear that one can major in "Denial" and minor in "Racism and Bigotry" and don't even have to attend in order to get a diploma.


... and then ultimately you would still believe the way you do so basically a waste of time.
An easy (and cheap) way to get out of doing one's best to defend their views.

The subject has been discussed and it's apparent what really happened. Instead of just spouting off though, I can provide links that support what I write. It has been discussed at length in here ...
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/8874198datingPostpage38.aspx
Ex-CIA agent: Waterboarding 'saved lives'

All are welcome to join the discussion but in order to be taken seriously, one will have to provide links that show proof of what they write about.

It it well known that Kalid was water boarded an infamous 183 times in a 3 year period …
I was under the impression that it was actually a much shorter period of time … which would indicate that it was more about sadistic and depraved treatment than retrieving actual factual information. Oh yes … and trying to force a confession that there was a connection/tie-in between Al Qaeda and Saddam … which we all know there wasn't.

http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/4859
Was KSM Waterboarded 183 Times to Extract a Confessed Saddam Link to 9/11 as the US Invaded Iraq?

In an Emptywheel post that is getting a lot of deserved attention, we learn that Kahlid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in a one month period. It seems to me that both the excessive number of waterboard treatments for KSM and the timing of when they were carried out are of significance.

Why on earth would such a barbaric procedure be carried out so many times? To me, the most compelling answer is that a very specific answer was being sought and KSM refused to provide that answer.

There is historical precedent for such an interpretation. In the Spanish Inquisition, waterboarding and other torture methods were used until the desired confession of a particular sin was extracted.
In the case of KSM, the timing of the waterboarding seems to be a potentially big clue in answering both the question of why so many waterboard treatments were carried out and what desired confession was being sought. He was captured on March 1, 2003, although there were conflicting reports that he may have been captured as early as September, 2002.

The US invasion of Iraq began late on the night of March 19, 2003 (New York time, it was already March 20 in Iraq).

Was KSM waterboarded that many times in that particular month with the aim of extracting a confession of a Saddam Hussein link to 9/11?

After all, KSM was widely reported to have been the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks and the Bush Administration wanted nothing in the world more than it wanted a Saddam-9/11 link to justify the Iraq invasion. With time running out for the invasion to begin, the pressure to get such a confession seems a very likely driving force such depraved treatment.

Keep in mind that Al Libi was water boarded until he gave a false confession … the one they were seeking … a connection/tie-in between Al Qaeda and Saddam. Turns out, he lied just to get the water boarding to stop. So there is proof that water boarding does not produce reliable information.

At the time the "Shrub war machine" wanted to "illegally" invade Iraq. They already knew that the WMD propaganda was not flying and that the US was happy to turn that over to the UN, so they desperately needed something else to hype up the nation. They desperately needed something to base their "fear-mongering" on and the only way to do that was to get some sort of connection/tie-in between Al Qaeda and Saddam, so they needed such confessions.

Based on such false information, we "illegally" invaded a sovereign nation, and we all know how that has already affected hundreds of thousands of lives and who knows how it will affect them in years to come. Families both here and in Iraq are losing loved ones daily, whether in death or permanent injuries.

… it must of been EFFECTIVE interogation. I read it somewhere …
Really? You read it somewhere? Where?

… probably find it yourself if you really cared.
Ummm … NO. That's not the way it works in here.

If one is going to go around spouting off some sort of theory or belief, then one takes the responsibility of providing back-up for that … generally in the form of a link as to where we can all see the proof and read it for ourselves.

Seems to me that's been the tradition since I can remember … if one writes something, it's the custom to find some sort of link or proof to back up what one writes. If one is not prepared to do that, then it's doubtful that one will be taken seriously. It's also pretty well-known that Faux News is not much of a reliable or believable source. Sometimes it takes a while to get the hang of things. The one thing that is not credible in here … telling others to find that proof themselves.

OT
I think the man had no idea what it might be like. Also, he was not even tied down and the board he was laying on was not tilted backwards either. So imagine what he might be saying if the actual torture had been done as it was done on who knows how many prisoners.
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 91
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History
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 9:47:21 AM
Waterboarding is torture huh? You don't say. You know what I say? So what?

I know something else that is torture, the trip down from the 98th floor of the world trade center that several of your fellow citizens made live on national TV a few years ago. You know, instead of being roasted alive.

So, do you think I, or any of the family members of those poor souls who can bring up a picture of their loved ones plunging to their deaths on the internet for now and all eternity gives a rats azz if the guy who planned it got waterboarded?

How a generation of willing sheep in this country was spawned from the greatest generation I will never understand. You go on being 'non-offensive' and let the folks who know how to keep you safe do their jobs- you can thank them later.

Last I heard KSM was still alive, and apparently not requesting any counseling for his trauma, unfortunately Daniel Pearl's wife and child are probably not so lucky as to not need the same. I'm sure Nick Berg's family is still hurting too, ya think?

And before you bleeding hearts get you****es up, yes, I have been waterboarded in training (no it's not the same because you know they can't really harm you) it's not pleasant, I do not however shed a tear for the 3 who did receive the treatment.

I have been in the military, worked as a street cop and worked in corrections- So I know all about 'C and D block' too. Little hint- there are the same hairbags housed in A and B block as well. Watching "Lockdown, life on the inside" does not give you ANY insight in to what really goes on, so some of you need to quit acting like authorities on the subject because you watched the new years day marathon for 12 hours.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 94
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/28/2009 10:24:46 AM
NurbyDriver, you make a passionate case for revenge (albeit a fallacious one), but revenge is not and never was the issue here. The issue is methods of interrogation and whether they are acceptable and effective. Waterboarding is neither. Being torture, it is illegal; being torture, it is ineffective at extracting valid information.

Otherwise, we as a nation would just "go medieval on their asses." Perhaps you were just born several centuries too late and/or in the wrong part of the world...
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