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 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 130
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torturePage 4 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)


What decisions would you make to secure the nation and prevent possible future attacks?


OK, two completely different situations here.

The first is about responding to a terrorist attack and trying to prevent future attacks.

The second is about what role we should play when another country is run by a brutal dictator and that country happens to have a lot of oil reserves.

There is no particular connection between the two, other than that each could, and did, involve use of our military.

The question I ask myself in the first case is "How can we end or eliminate as much as humanely possible the threat of terrorist acts against us?" A common mistake made when contemplating anti-terror efforts is to act as though there are a finite number of terrorists, and all we need to do is just kill, capture, or neutralize them all. That's a serious flaw in reasoning.

The vast majority of people, anywhere in the world, are primarily concerned with taking care of themselves and their families. In order to become sufficiently dedicated to a cause to put your life on the line to defend it one generally needs to connect that cause with defending either those you love or a moral code so strong it's worth sacrificing your life for.

Terror leaders set out to convince recruits that their target is a direct threat to them, their families, and their moral code. We know that the U.S. has no interest in preventing decent citizens from providing for their families or peacefully practicing their spiritual beliefs. But our actions have too often provided fodder for those who preach otherwise. If you're a peaceful Afghani or Iraqi and U.S. forces bomb your home, kill and maim your family, and generally wreak havoc in your country, it's not hard for a terrrorist to recruit you to their cause.

So my strategy to fight terror is to do it with a scalpel, not a hammer, by example, not rationalizations. Go after known terrorists with all the tools at your disposal, but only after those specific individuals, not their village or country. At the same time, demonstrate a code of conduct sure to be recognized by all cultures as honorable and respectful. Follow the Geneva convention, without nitpicking over whether a detainee technically deserves those protections. Provide your intelligence gatherers with the tools they need to do their job, but let them tell you the results of their investigations. Don't tell them the conclusions you expect them to reach. And those tools are NOT to include inhumane treatment of anyone.

In other words, after 9/11, I'd have asked every country in the world to help us find the perpetrators and bring them to justice. I would NOT have used the attacks on us as an excuse to invade other countries, unless I had proof that that country's government was behind the attacks on us. And I would do all I could to ensure that our policies and actions abroad, in all venues, was focused on demonstrating the embodiment of American values and ethics and core principle of respect for others.

As for Iraq, unless there was direct evidence of a direct imminent threat against us (and there wasn't) there was no justification for invasion. Even if we take into account the flawed intelligence about WMD's, which in retrospect was based on extremely flimsy evidence, there was never, even at the time, any reason to suspect we were about to be attacked by them. So let the UN sanctions and processes run their course. We were a long way from the need for the type of direct action we took. Yes, Sadaam was a bad guy. There are plenty of other bad guys in other parts of the world. Invading Iraq was a mistake, pure and simple.

Did I answer your questions?

dave
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 131
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/29/2009 10:30:02 AM
Well said, as usual, Dave.

The disturbing trend I'm seeing here is one of establishing a flexible standard of acceptable treatment by way of comparison. We are "the good guy" as long as we don't do things AS bad as "the bad guy." If the bad guy follows the Geneva convention, well then, I guess we have to be nice and obey the conventions as well. BUT if the bad guy skins people alive, rapes, or hacks heads off, well then, we are totally justified in doing anything "slightly distasteful" as long as it falls short of the crimes of the bad guy.

Luckily we happen to have an enemy that gives us so much leeway on our sliding scale of acceptable treatment, eh? It makes it sooo much easier to maintain the moral high ground of "the good guy." Of course, we already knew they were ruthless and vicious mofos when we funded, equipped, and trained them back in the 80's, but it was OK because they were doing it to the Soviets (the bad guys of the time), not us...
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 132
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/29/2009 10:31:31 AM

In other words, after 9/11, I'd have asked every country in the world to help us find the perpetrators and bring them to justice. I would NOT have used the attacks on us as an excuse to invade other countries, unless I had proof that that country's government was behind the attacks on us. And I would do all I could to ensure that our policies and actions abroad, in all venues, was focused on demonstrating the embodiment of American values and ethics and core principle of respect for others.

As for Iraq, unless there was direct evidence of a direct imminent threat against us (and there wasn't) there was no justification for invasion. Even if we take into account the flawed intelligence about WMD's, which in retrospect was based on extremely flimsy evidence, there was never, even at the time, any reason to suspect we were about to be attacked by them. So let the UN sanctions and processes run their course. We were a long way from the need for the type of direct action we took. Yes, Sadaam was a bad guy. There are plenty of other bad guys in other parts of the world. Invading Iraq was a mistake, pure and simple.


I think we did ask, and several answered the call. Afghanistan was invaded because it was their 'government' - and I use the term loosely- that harbored AQ, UBL and the pretty much the entire operation. Ok, enough said on that one. No doubt about the justification there.

Iran, well, putting aside the myriad violations of the UN resolutions, cease fire agreements, painting coalition AC in the NFZ on a daily basis, sandbagging the UN weapons inspectors and gassing the Kurds- we still had reason to take him out. Which we should have done in 1991 but I digress.

The unfortunate truth about WMD's is we knew he had them because we had the receipts. It was one of those "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" deals at the time. People who are looking to bash the US decision to invade Iraq always gloss over the fact that MI6, DGSE, and the BND all concurred that those weapons existed. I mean, the proof is in the pudding, and 5,000 dead Kurds apparently. So, what happened to them? My guess is they are currently someplace in Syria- but that is just an educated guess on my part.

The UN is a joke, a corrupt joke, but a joke. And we need to toss them out of the US and cancel funding from the US for their operations.
 jed456
Joined: 4/26/2005
Msg: 133
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/29/2009 10:46:41 AM
]That's a nice cut and paste job but do you really know anything about it? Perhaps you've heard about the two downed US navy airmen at the battle of midway that were picked up by a jap navy destroyer, interrogated and then tossed overboard with shell casings chained to their feet? Maybe the rape of Nanking? Bataan death march? The treatment of British and Aussie prisoners in Burma maybe? Unit 731? No?


Actually I know of every single incident you have cited.War crime's every one of them as was the waterboarding done to Nielsen.And since this is straying so far off topic I am done here!Read flyguy's post#133 He hit the nail on the head.thank you flyguy
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 134
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/29/2009 11:54:43 AM

Come on cotter, what was Danny doing there huh? What was he doing to bring a heinous murder upon himself? If you're going to imply it, have the integrity to say it yourself.
I touched on it only because some people in here keep bringing it up. It would be off topic to elaborate on it, but if I easily found the information, so can anyone else. Like I said, all one has to do is put a question in a browser and hit enter. I've already supplied the question I used ... and came up with all kinds of information.

I never intimated that he deserved to have his head cut off ... but just as it's against the law in Afghanistan to distribute literature and bibles to convert the population to Christianity and one can be arrested and prosecuted for it ... Dan was doing other things that are also punishable according to Afghanistan laws.

I love it when libs start with trying to qualify what they are about to say so they can try to absolve themselves of being on the side of the bad guys, even when it's clear that they are.
What "libs" are doing (and I'm not sure how it has been determined that they are so-called "libs") is not the topic of this thread either, so to elaborate on that is also off topic.

OT ...
I think it's already been established and is pretty clear by now that what we did was TORTURE. It's illegal ... and nothing justifies the use of it.

If other barbaric people want to do that ... then they should be held accountable for their actions ... just as anyone associated with the US who has people TORTURED should be.

I'd start out with the "Shrub" and his gang of thugs headed up by "C0ck TT Cheney".
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 135
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/29/2009 12:31:02 PM
Britian, Austrailia , Canada, just some of the armed forces that were deployed to iraq and afghanistan. I am aware of only two Countries which refused any support and that was Germany and France.

You did a great job of not answering my question. I had hoped that you would commit to something. Make a solid decision on an action safeguarding the country and developing better security, but instead its more important to not offend the rest of the world because we got our feelings hurt.

I am sure you did your best though.
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 136
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/29/2009 1:27:31 PM

I never intimated that he deserved to have his head cut off ... but just as it's against the law in Afghanistan to distribute literature and bibles to convert the population to Christianity and one can be arrested and prosecuted for it ... Dan was doing other things that are also punishable according to Afghanistan laws.


Boy talk about misinformed and completely blinded by ideology.

He was killed in Karachi, Pakistan. So, what illegal thing was he doing again?

Please, when acting as if you know something, at least get the location right.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 137
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/29/2009 2:05:05 PM

I had hoped that you would commit to something. Make a solid decision on an action safeguarding the country and developing better security, but instead its more important to not offend the rest of the world because we got our feelings hurt.


Whoa now. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I'd devote all available resources to going after individual terrorists who did us harm. What do you think the odds are that we'd have Bin Laden by now if we'd devoted oh, say one tenth of the Iraq war budget to going after him and his key personel? And if it didn't come through before, I'm convinced we'd be a lot more secure if we only went after bad guys instead of wreaking mass destruction in the general part of the world where we think they may be, thus inspiring countless numbers of others to come after us.

Maybe to you the difference between acting in such a way that hardly anyone would WANT to attack us and in a way that generates thousands of new enemies is "not offending the rest of the world because we got our feelings hurt". To me it's a wise defense strategy.

It's clear we have a difference in perspectives.

Dave
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 139
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/29/2009 3:45:13 PM

In the hopes of getting this thread back on topic, I am posting the following articel, which claims that Mancow set the whole thing up. All those who thought he was being "brave and honest" were being used as dupes by him. Mancow exploited the willingness of americans to give him the benefit of the doubt in order to round up some media attention and get his name mentioned on TV

http://gawker.com/5271813/did-erich-mancow-muller-fake-his-waterboarding-for-publicity?skyline=true&s=x


Yesterday we showed you video of Erich "Mancow" Muller, a Chicago-based right-wing shockjock, appearing as a guest on Keith Olbermann's show to discuss his being waterboarded. He claimed it led to an ideological conversion! But now a tipster has provided information that suggests the whole thing may be a hoax.

(Update: Mancow tells us on Friday morning: "'Hoax' is probably not the right word, but we did think it was going to be a joke.")

I told you all that he was liar.


But wasn't the whole basis of the thread that he had been water boarded and because of that had an epiphany that suddenly he thought it was indeed torture? I appreciate your honesty but doesn't this sort of blow your whole theory out of the water that a conservative after having the procedure done to him would never feel the same about it?

I had it done to me years ago, and I still don't disapprove of it's limited use.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 140
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/29/2009 4:10:43 PM


Dan was doing other things that are also punishable according to Afghanistan laws.

He was killed in Karachi, Pakistan. So, what illegal thing was he doing again?
Yes ... you are right, I used the wrong country. My bad, I was hurrying to get the post done and typed the wrong word. It still applies though even if we apply the right country.

Find out what he was up to in Pakistan that wasn't exactly "sanctioned". He was warned before he undertook his little escapade, but he did it anyways. While this probably didn't have that much to do with his death, it didn't help much that his father was a flaming Zionist as well. (Hint ... the Zionists have caused the Muslims a whole lot of problems ... eh?)

Mostly it was what he was "investigating" there (without the blessings of the US) that got him into trouble and caused him to be kidnapped in the first place. Had everything gone right, he was going to uncover some information that when it went into print ... would not be good for the US. Almost makes me wonder if the CIA had something to do with his kidnapping ... as there is also some hint to that as well.

Regardless, the man did not deserve to be murdered.

OT ...
Update: Mancow tells us on Friday morning: "'Hoax' is probably not the right word, but we did think it was going to be a joke."
Okay ... what started out as a joke turned out to be not so funny and in my opinion the result is still the same. The man is convinced (no matter what route he took to get there) that waterboarding is TORTURE ... and it is, so what's the big deal how he came to realize it?
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 141
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/29/2009 5:50:00 PM

Mostly it was what he was "investigating" there (without the blessings of the US) that got him into trouble and caused him to be kidnapped in the first place. Had everything gone right, he was going to uncover some information that when it went into print ... would not be good for the US. Almost makes me wonder if the CIA had something to do with his kidnapping ... as there is also some hint to that as well.


First you say that he was doing things that would have been punishable in an Islamic state- Afghanistan let's say- now you say he was doing something that was going to look bad for the US, so which is it? Last I looked Pakistan was a sovereign state and we had no say in what anyone does there, American citizen or otherwise, we have no jurisdiction there.

Then, of course, you have to throw in that his father is a Zionist and that the CIA had something to do with it.

Frankly, cotter, you are in way, way over your head in this discussion and I think you might want to try an extra layer of tin foil. I hear Reynold's wrap is good stuff.

He was kidnapped and murdered because he was a Jew, nothing else. That's kinda, you know, what they do over there. When they are not protesting, fighting, hanging people, stoning, torturing or beheading people, or blowing them selves up. Oh, or calling for the destruction of Israel, let's not forget that too.

I am so glad that Bibi Netanyahu was elected PM of Israel- that's a man who is not to be trifled with.
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 144
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/30/2009 7:15:56 AM

Wow Nurby. Do you feel better about yourself now? Pretty ignorant. You can't articulate your own opinions without this nonsense?


If you actually read my posts you'll find I articulate my self very well thank you.

I'm not the one who posts nonsense and conspiracy theories, nor am I the one who goes out of their way to write the name of a former vice president in a manner denoting a part of the male anatomy. That my friend is the true refuge of the ignorant and uninformed.

Odd how you focus on me for calling out someone who is clearly agenda driven and entrenched in the far left, hate America mindset, yet seem not to care about all the references to 'wingnuts' and the like in this thread.

I point out her inaccuracies, and she changes her story as if that's what she meant all along. I call shenanigans.

And yes, she is far out of her depth in this discussion. And that too, is my opinion.

If you don't have a thick enough skin to talk politics, don't talk politics.

Or come to my blog, we can really go hammer and tongs there- I don't censor people. But bring a lunch.
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 153
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/30/2009 5:06:08 PM
But he also said he's still not against it being used. Nor am I for that matter.
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 156
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/31/2009 10:09:35 AM
I watch the video on You Tube and he didn't get any water in his lungs cause I didn't see him coughing it out . That would be the only way he could be drowning from pouring water on his face. He was offer medical attention like 3 or 4 times after while he was interviewing and didn't accept until he was done talking. maybe 3 to 5 mins later I didn't pay much attention. He didn't look like he was gasping or coughing.
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 157
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/31/2009 10:44:49 AM
You know which enhance interogation I believe to be torture is? The one with the insect. They put a serious fear in me .. even the thought of squishing one is disgusting. When I was in the "latrine" in Korea this unexplainably ugly bug (it was monsterous) crawled under the bathroom stall and stared at me for a good 15 min. I was trapped and in fear of something. I thought it might jump at me or crawl on me. It was the worse 15 mins in my life. The bug eventually retreated and i carried a can of insect killer when I went to the latrine from then on.

Fear is such a huge mind game. I had never feared heights until my dad had and "on call" He was a Cable TECHnician. He asked me to come and he climbed up this tall latter and I was right behind him the latter didn't hit the top of the roof so it was a big stretch to pull yourself on to the roof. I locked up with the most incredible fear I had never experienced before. It took him a few mins to talk me onto the roof but i made it alive.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 158
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/31/2009 11:06:21 AM
All this talk of Mancow's waterboarding being a "hoax" (unsubstantiated claim) is a red herring to the central issue. It was, of course, a radio "stunt," but that is not the same as "hoax." There was no sleight of hand here, no illusion, no computer animation. Water is going into Mancow's nose and mouth.

Now, let's just hypothetically concede that it was all faked-- either way, we can ALL admit it was not as severe as the CIA waterboardings of actual terrorists. If fake waterboarding gets a man to admit it's torture against his previous opinion, all while his hands are shaking in mild shock, imagine just how horrid, treacherous, and mentally disturbing the genuine article is!

All these efforts to downplay the torture aspect of waterboarding and to play up its effectiveness as an interrogation tool come from a dark place in the human psyche...
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 159
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/31/2009 11:17:53 AM
Probably true it wasn't as severe at KSM's sessions but then again what info were we trying to extract from the MANCOW. He is a whimp. When Mancow starts masterminding the blowing up of building and mass killings, we should try again with more determination. I am kidding.
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 160
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/31/2009 1:20:35 PM

All these efforts to downplay the torture aspect of waterboarding and to play up its effectiveness as an interrogation tool come from a dark place in the human psyche...


Its a good thing were only useing enhance interogation on those who seem to have already found that dark place in their own human psyche's
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 161
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/31/2009 4:35:36 PM

All these efforts to downplay the torture aspect of waterboarding and to play up its effectiveness as an interrogation tool come from a dark place in the human psyche...


Not really.

Some people realize that there is a certain sub group of humans, such as KSM, that once they have stepped over the line in so much as say, planning 9-11 and then beheading another human being on camera for the world to witness. They have pretty much abrogated their claim to be 1- human and 2- deserving of any quarter.

Water boarding IS torture, and you know what? In this instance I DON'T CARE.

Since I am assuming you are a pilot or aircrew member, let me ask you this;

If there was in custody a person who had information about several coordinated hijackings that were to take place, now let's say that one of those is the aircraft you are going to be on- I am assuming also you fly commercial passenger aircraft- as well as a couple hundred passengers, women and children among them. Now from intel intercepts they know that this is the plan, they just can't find the specific targets (unknown to them of course is one is your scheduled flight) but they know the date for certain, it's 21 days away.

What would you have them do? Try to ply a hardened terrorist with sugar free cookies, or try like hell to extract this information from him in the quickest way possible?

It takes a long time to build rapport and trust, apparently water boarding takes only seconds in some cases.

Would you rather yourself and several hundred other perish in order to hold to some misguided notion of 'fair play' or do you want them to do what they have to do to save yours and hundreds of other lives? Would you rather fall from the sky just so we could 'play nice'?

I await your answer with great curiosity.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 162
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/31/2009 6:57:59 PM

They have pretty much abrogated their claim to be 1- human and 2- deserving of any quarter.

This is only your personal opinion and is based upon no legal precedent whatsoever in this country. We have convicts who have eaten people's brains or raped children among other unthinkable acts who still possess civil rights and have had much better treatment from our penal system than KSM. Our nation is built, in part, on the ideal that punishment will not be "cruel and unusual." Not that waterboarding is utilized as a form of punishment... at least not officially. The movie "Magnum Force" touches upon these ideals, btw.

What would you have them do? Try to ply a hardened terrorist with sugar free cookies, or try like hell to extract this information from him in the quickest way possible?

I would have them act consistent with the law, first of all. If we knew that much about the plan, I would think that aviation security would be at an all-time high during that week. Air marshalls would be on more flights than ever.

Your choice of actions is poorly thought out, though. The "sugar free cookies" is an example of an interrogation technique that actually worked. And "the quickest way possible"? Do we even know what that is? Does that include Jedi mind tricks? I find it ironic that you seem to find the cookies a more "distasteful" method than torture.

It takes a long time to build rapport and trust, apparently water boarding takes only seconds in some cases.

There is no evidence of waterboarding working that we know of, let alone working quickly. KSM was waterboarded 183 times over a 3 month period, and even that was just to establish a false Al Qaeda-Hussein connection-- a forced confession to justify a preexisting agenda, rather than actual predictive information. That doesn't help me sleep better at night.

The "ticking time bomb" scenario is a flimsy and unfounded one. Terrorists have all the time in the world. We should be planning for the long haul. Btw, remember how we took prisoners in the first Gulf war, and what change in tactics Gen. Petraeus utilized to get more cooperation from Sunni insurgents?
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 163
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/31/2009 7:22:32 PM

This is only your personal opinion and is based upon no legal precedent whatsoever in this country. We have convicts who have eaten people's brains or raped children among other unthinkable acts who still possess civil rights and have had much better treatment from our penal system than KSM.



If we arrested a person who was a known canibalist and he had information on a community of canibalist who are eating people brains, I think some enhanced interogation would be call for. The average cannibalist dines alone so this scenario really doesn't work well .. Child rapist .. same thing. Once you got them for the crime you really don't expect that they have info on other child rapist.



There is no evidence of waterboarding working that we know of, let alone working quickly. KSM was waterboarded 183 times over a 3 month period,


Key words "that we know of" .

You have been offer info that use of enhanced interogation was key in a volume of information that lead to foiled attacks on buildings, presidents, and people who are not presidents, in other words people in general. You refuse to except that information because that would mean you have to be wrong.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 164
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/31/2009 7:40:08 PM

If we arrested a person who was a known canibalist and he had information on a community of canibalist who are eating people brains, I think some enhanced interogation would be call for. The average cannibalist dines alone so this scenario really doesn't work well .. Child rapist .. same thing. Once you got them for the crime you really don't expect that they have info on other child rapist.

You missed the point entirely. I was responding to a claim that people who do horrible things abrogate all of their rights. That claim remains personal opinion without legal precendent.

You have been offer info that use of enhanced interogation was key in a volume of information that lead to foiled attacks on buildings, presidents, and people who are not presidents, in other words people in general. You refuse to except that information because that would mean you have to be wrong.

I have been offered jack squat. Assuming for a moment that you are totally right-- we (at least many of us) would still be debating the issue of ethics vs. expediency/effectiveness. For some people, that would be a moral quandry. The problem with moral quandries is that there is no clear and easy right and wrong.

Here-- I'll offer you some information that you will refuse to accept because that would mean you have to be wrong:

http://waterboarding.org/success_story
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 165
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/31/2009 8:15:45 PM
Key words "that we know of" .


Um, yes. Just like you're not a terrorist, that we know of. But if that phrase is enough to justify waterboarding anyway, I guess that means we should give it a try with you, just in case?

The point is, there is ample evidence that waterboarding is unreliable, no good evidence that it's useful. By condoning it we send a message to the world that we approve of torture, which means it's more likely to be used against us if opportunity presents, and it will for sure be used to help recruit more terrorists to attack us.

So there are ample reasons NOT to waterboard, and something between no reason and bad reasons TO waterboard. Seems like an easy call to make from where I sit...

Dave
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 166
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/31/2009 9:27:26 PM

There is no evidence of waterboarding working that we know of, let alone working quickly. KSM was waterboarded 183 times over a 3 month period, and even that was just to establish a false Al Qaeda-Hussein connection-- a forced confession to justify a preexisting agenda, rather than actual predictive information. That doesn't help me sleep better at night.


Umm, yeah, there really is: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=3978231&page=1

And the most telling part of that interview:


"That's why so few people were waterboarded. I think the agency has said that two people were waterboarded, Abu Zubaydah being one, and it's because you really wanted it to be a last resort because we didn't want these false confessions. We didn't want wild goose chases," Kiriakou said.

And they were faced with men like Abu Zubaydah, Kiriakou says, who held critical and timely intelligence.

"A former colleague of mine asked him during the conversation one day, 'What would you do if we decided to let you go one day?' And he said, 'I would kill every American and Jew I could get my hands on...It's nothing personal. You're a nice guy. But this is who I am"


Be against it if that's your opinion, but please, don't be disingenuous and claim it doesn't work, clearly it does.

Flyguy, this wasn't a 'Kobiashi Maru' test, you don't get to change the parameters. So apparently you would rather you, your passengers (?) and your crew mates fall from the sky in a fireball or be flown in to a building than have some hairbag terrorist be made a little uncomfortable?

If you would rather have yourself and your passengers die rather than allow the use of any and all methods to get the information to save them well, I really don't know what to say- this nation is apparently full of sheep would would rather 'play fair' than live. How we have sired so many like this is beyond me. Passivity will only get you killed.

Someone like KSM is a whole different animal from some home grown criminal of any strip so a comparison of the two is non sequitur.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 168
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/31/2009 9:58:30 PM
What cracks me up about people citing such articles is that they are rarely as compelling and conclusive as claimed. Either that, or people assume no one will actually read them. The article really amounts to hearsay and personal opinion. The endnote actually served to discredit the accuracy of his recollections. In any case, it would be pretty easy to find a CIA agent who has different opinions on the effectiveness of waterboarding.

To boot, the CIA agent you cited is extremely ambivalent:

"At the time, I felt that waterboarding was something that we needed to do. And as time has passed, and as September 11th has, you know, has moved farther and farther back into history, I think I've changed my mind," he told ABC News.



don't be disingenuous and claim it doesn't work, clearly it does.

Actually, if I am being disingenuous, so are you for claiming it clearly does work because it is anything but clear.

Flyguy, this wasn't a 'Kobiashi Maru' test, you don't get to change the parameters. So apparently you would rather you, your passengers (?) and your crew mates fall from the sky in a fireball or be flown in to a building than have some hairbag terrorist be made a little uncomfortable?

How did I change the parameters? I just pointed out that you had one course of action that was self-defeating (for your argument) and another that was extremely vague. And now you come to a fallacious conclusion in an attempt to misrepresent me. I'm pretty convinced that you are the more disingenuous of the two of us.

Someone like KSM is a whole different animal from some home grown criminal of any strip so a comparison of the two is non sequitur.

I disagree that there is no comparison, but if you would feel better if your loved ones were blown up by Timothy McVeigh as opposed to KSM, then that is your own personal quirk. As such, it has no place in the serious debate over national policy.
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