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 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 169
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torturePage 5 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)

And the most telling part of that interview:


Was actually this:


In that context, at that time, Kiriakou says he felt waterboarding was something the United States needed to do.

"At the time, I felt that waterboarding was something that we needed to do. And as time has passed, and as September 11th has, you know, has moved farther and farther back into history, I think I've changed my mind," he told ABC News.


And:


t may have compromised our principles at least in the short term. And I think it's good that we're having a national debate about this. We should be debating this, and Congress should be talking about it because, I think, as a country, we have to decide if this is something that we want to do as a matter of policy. I'm not saying now that we should, but, at the very least, we should be talking about it. It shouldn't be secret. It should be out there as part of the national debate.


And:


UPDATE: U.S. Government documents released in April 2009 indicate that Kiriakou's account that Abu Zubaydah broke after only one water boarding session was incorrect. According to a footnote in newly released, previously classified "Top Secret" memos, the CIA used the water board "at least 83 times during August 2002 in the interrogation of Zubaydah."

Following the release of the documents, Kiriakou said: "When I spoke to ABC News in December 2007 I was aware of Abu Zubaydah being water boarded on one occasion. It was after this one occasion that he revealed information related to a planned terrorist attack. As I said in the original interview, my information was second-hand. I never participated in the use of enhanced techniques on Abu Zubaydah or on any other prisoner, nor did I witness the use of such techniques."
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 170
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/31/2009 10:40:35 PM

How did I change the parameters? I just pointed out that you had one course of action that was self-defeating (for your argument) and another that was extremely vague. And now you come to a fallacious conclusion in an attempt to misrepresent me. I'm pretty convinced that you are the more disingenuous of the two of us.


I outlined a set of circumstances and asked for a yes or no answer. You went on about air marshals and the like. I didn't ask that, I asked if given *this* set of circumstances, namely that without this intel you and your crew are fish food, would you still say they should not water board even if that got them the intel needed to save your life? You said a lot of things but avoided answering the question with a definitive yes or no.


The article really amounts to hearsay and personal opinion.


Really? The man was there and participated in the interrogations, hardly hearsay.

He may even feel a little bad about it now, good for him, he has a heart. But at the time is was a necessary thing to do and he did it. Many of us who have been in combat feel bad later about those we had to kill, much later. I still feel bad about a shooting I was involved in many years ago, but it was my job and I don't feel guilty about it, just sad that I was given no other choice. But given the same circumstances today, I would act in exactly the same manner.

And I note that you do not address that the person he was working on said he would kill every American and Jew he could get his hands on if released because that's just the way he is wired. You think water boarding caused that? Not for him or others like him is that so, they are brought up to think exactly like that from childhood.

I feel sorry for those of you that have been conditioned to be so passive, so delicate in your sensibilities that you will not even act to save your life or the lives of others if it some how might bend the law or be politically incorrect in some way. It's this attitude that has seen Europe on the verge of total Islamization, and the Islamists are counting on that same passivity here in order to reach their goal of a worldwide caliphate.

This is not an enemy that respects you for showing them respect, they see it as weakness and despise you all the more for it, it simply reinforces their notion that you are worthy of nothing but subjugation.
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 171
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 5/31/2009 10:43:52 PM
Ok, I didn't see where he said he did not participate in the interrogations. The rest still goes.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 172
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/1/2009 10:06:10 AM

would you still say they should not water board even if that got them the intel needed to save your life? You said a lot of things but avoided answering the question with a definitive yes or no.

Ah, thanks for the clarification on the choices (finally). I get it now-- the old "agree with me or you and everyone dies" scenario-- a very clumsy, unrealistic, and intellectually dishonest strongarming tactic. It reminds me of a pretty funny joke, though. I won't tell it here, but a man is given two choices: "Death... or Unga Bunga (sodomy)." You also remind me of a game that is set up like so: "A guy puts a gun to your head. He will shoot you unless you have sex with [someone disgusting] or you eat [something disgusting]. Which do you choose???"

And I note that you do not address that the person he was working on said he would kill every American and Jew he could get his hands on if released because that's just the way he is wired.

Oh, I didn't know that you were needing me to address it. I will address it now: we probably shouldn't release him. There.

I feel sorry for those of you that have been conditioned to be so passive, so delicate in your sensibilities that you will not even act to save your life...

That's just the spirit of Christ living on in us, man. Seriously, though, it is a strawman argument to claim that people "will not even act." No one said anything about doing nothing.

This is not an enemy that respects you for showing them respect, they see it as weakness and despise you all the more for it, it simply reinforces their notion that you are worthy of nothing but subjugation.

It behooves us, as a nation, to understand our foe better than this. Fortunately, there are influential leaders, such as Gen. Petraeus, who do.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 173
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/1/2009 10:25:27 AM

This is not an enemy that respects you for showing them respect, they see it as weakness and despise you all the more for it, it simply reinforces their notion that you are worthy of nothing but subjugation.


Just to follow up on flyguy's wisdom, the above once again reflects the falacious concept that the "enemy" is a finite number of bad guys. It isn't the enemy we need to impress with our behavior. It's those who are not yet our enemy that we need to show there is no good reason to become our enemy.

Yes, we should go after the bad guys with every tool in our arsenal to bring them to justice, and the we need to treat them with the respect that any human deserves, no matter their crime. That's what civilized societies do. It's what separates us from brutal regimes.

Dave
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 174
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/1/2009 4:16:26 PM

Yes, we should go after the bad guys with every tool in our arsenal to bring them to justice, and the we need to treat them with the respect that any human deserves, no matter their crime. That's what civilized societies do. It's what separates us from brutal regimes.


I am pretty sure you don't really mean that every tool in our arsenal statement. It sounds to me like your ok with dropping bombs on them shooting at them with M-16 or M-60's , lob some grenades if you got em but whatever you do, don't you dare pour water in their face, that will just piss em off and then they will want to really kill us.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 175
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/1/2009 6:46:08 PM
I guess you didn't read the sentence before the section you cited of mine:


It isn't the enemy we need to impress with our behavior. It's those who are not yet our enemy that we need to show there is no good reason to become our enemy.


or you wouldn't have written this:


don't you dare pour water in their face, that will just piss em off and then they will want to really kill us.


Or was I not clear enough? I'm really not particularly concerned about the feelings of those who commit crimes or acts of war against us. I am very much concerned about the attitudes of those who are not currently opposed to us, but MIGHT become so, depending on how we conduct ourselves.

Some argue that for us to conduct ourselves humanely and with dignity somehow diminishes us, or even makes our enemies think of us as weak. I argue that those who support waterboarding and other torture, or any acts that are purely vengeful, are completely indifferent to making our enemies grow in number and resolve.

So who is being irresponsible? Those who act to make sure we will continue to be attacked by more and more people? Or those of us who seek to dry up the supply of fresh terrorists? It's not a matter of strong vs. weak, although I'd argue that resisting the short term urge to torture takes more strength than giving in to it. It's a matter of smart vs. stupid. The Cheney approach is just flat out stupid.

Dave
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 176
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/1/2009 7:48:37 PM

Some argue that for us to conduct ourselves humanely and with dignity somehow diminishes us, or even makes our enemies think of us as weak. I argue that those who support waterboarding and other torture, or any acts that are purely vengeful, are completely indifferent to making our enemies grow in number and resolve.


I don't agree with you. Obviously. I think that spare the rod spoil the child and if you don't stand up for yourself you can't expect anyone else to do it for you. We have a had support in Iraq and Afghanistan from other countries and those that don't respect our Country, never did so why should we expect they might change if we back down on defending our country and our freedom of religion and right to live.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 177
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/1/2009 8:16:48 PM

why should we expect they might change if we back down on defending our country and our freedom of religion and right to live.


And how again does not torturing detainees constitute backing down on defending our country and our freedom of religion and right to live? Could you demonstrate that link?
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 178
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/1/2009 8:31:51 PM
You were the one talkin about using the tools in our arsenal. Waterboarding "was" one of those tools. Pouring water on KSM face was used as a tool to aid in defending our Country and our way of life. Success. Plots of terrorism were thwarted and buildings and people are safe.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 179
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/1/2009 8:41:11 PM
^^^^^ That certainly wasn't what I meant when I wrote that, but after reading back over it I can see how you might have taken it that way if you didn't already know that I strongly oppose waterboarding.

Whether the waterboarding of KSM actually got us any actionable intel is very much up for debate. I've seen citations on both sides of that one, and that's the ONLY example where I've seen anyone even TRY to assert that waterboarding got us information that did any good. A pretty strong case has been made that we had already thwarted the Los Angeles attacks before we even had him in custody.

So just out of curiosity, since waterboarding is fine in your book, should we be waterboarding the man accused of killing the abortion doctor to find out why he did it and whether he knows of others intending to kill other doctors?

dave
 tireofbeinglonely2
Joined: 2/24/2007
Msg: 180
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/1/2009 9:16:52 PM
I am pretty sure that ehanced interogations won't be implemented in this case. I have no reason to believe that he is part of a terrorist faction. Should evidence prove that he is I am sure they will deal with it accordingly. Will you be disappointed if he isn't waterboarded?
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 181
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/1/2009 9:23:27 PM
Dave, don't be silly. You know very well that waterboarding is used only as a last resort on a very small number of brown foreigners.
 Drew178
Joined: 4/20/2009
Msg: 183
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/1/2009 11:20:06 PM

Membership in Montana freemen, and operation rescue isn't enough? What the hell does he need to get a tan and change his name to Abdul before you'll consider it?


Since enhanced interrogation is not applicable to US citizens it would be highly unlikely. In any case, I believe that Obama would have to give the order and, he may, in the future as despite the blustering, neither he, nor his administration have stated they would not. In fact, when asked if Obama retains the right to conduct enhanced interrogations, Axlerod did not deny this, only saying that he (Obama), is 'going to do everything that he needs to do to keep this country safe.' No further clarification was given frm the White House.
 Drew178
Joined: 4/20/2009
Msg: 185
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/1/2009 11:40:08 PM
Charles
Actually they've openly stated that they have put an end to enhanced interogations.


Have you an Obama quote that says he will never, under any circumstances employ torture or enhanced interrogation methods?

Charles
Frankly I don't want this guy waterboarded, I mean he is a terrorist, but he'll spill the beans, just like they all do.


Actually he is a murderer. Or, at worst, an assassin. His method was not random and nor was it designed to undermine society to gain a political goal rather, it was an act of revenge.

Charles
Torture is done for the pleasure of the torturer, not for any practical purpose.


On this I agree. As well, true torture never gives the person being tortured any way out despite wishing to divulge information, the torture continues. Hence one main difference between torture and enhanced interrogation.
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 187
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/2/2009 5:30:05 PM

BTW, the CIA water boarded a total of THREE guys AND IT WORKED. Why are we even talking about this? The economy is dropping faster than a busy hookers hot pants and THIS IS WHAT WE THINK IS IMPORTANT!


No, this is what lefties think is important, because the country being on a rocket sled on rails to socialism to them is a good thing.

I just pray to God that we can make it to the mid term elections before The One defiles everything the framers did. The good news is Obama is one term and out, barring the very real possibility of a scandal that causes him to resign- Being from Chicago and all.
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 189
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/2/2009 7:22:33 PM

I generally resist saying this, but I'll give in here: It feels sooooooooooooooooooo good to see things like this said. There is a little corner in the back of my brain that enjoys knowing that people who believe these things (and, more to the point, say the other ignorant things that you say) will be suffering for likely a full 7.5 years still. It's part of the fun of listening to Rush Windbag and the like: the ignorant people who call in can whine and moan and decide to be unnecessarily miserable. No skin of my nose. Enjoy your misery. Unfortunately, it's deserved.


If you really believe that you are definitely NOT paying attention.

With the mid terms, your majority in congress is through. With 2012 the unqualified one will be no longer POTUS, count on it.

Even Obama's former supporters are deriding him, and it's going to get worse. Be smug while you can, the swing back right will dramatic and long lasting.

Carter 2.0 will not be re-elected, the far left is not enough for him to hold power and he has pissed off about everyone else already, and just keeps ooonnnn truckin'.

The man has no clue what he's doing and it becomes more apparent to more people every single day, no my friend, because of the lightworker, there will not be another democrat POTUS until 2o24 at least. By then we MAY have recovered from the damage the junior senator from Illinois has caused...maybe.

So enjoy it, it will be very short lived.
 Drew178
Joined: 4/20/2009
Msg: 191
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/2/2009 10:44:09 PM
Charles
January 22, 2009 President Obama signed an executive order requiring the CIA to use only the 19 interrogation methods outlined in the United States Army Field Manual "unless the Attorney General with appropriate consultation provides further guidance."[102]

Holder is on the record as saying that the President can not legally authorize that act. So while he has not stated that he would not do enhanced interrogation under any circumstances, I have never heard you say you'll never under any circumstances have sex with an immediate blood relative. I give you the benefit of the doubt in the same way I give Obama it.


And when asked, his press secretary would not state that Obama would not use torture yet did say he would use all means. I take this to mean he reserves the right to use all means legal or not. Strange Obama never clarified this yet you trot out a piece of paper similar to the one Bush used to change torture to enhanced interrogation and call it the word of God.

Charles
they'd stop waterboarding you when you confessed to being a witch you know, does that mean that the spanish inquisition hunted down and successfully rooted out a huge population or witches during it's inquisition? Answer this before you go on with anything else.


The FBI is looking for confessions and needs to do it legal so it stands up in court. The CIA on the other hand need to know what is being planned so they can act and are not looking for a confession. They start by asking questions they already know the answer to and give the illusion they know more than they do, comparing any and all information given by questioning others and verifying it with other sources. In this way, any bogus information given is more likely than not sniffed out as false rather quickly and, brought back to the detainee with further interrogation. The ultimate result is a pattern of knowing they wil verify the information before the series of interrogations cease and, the spilling of the proverbial beans.

Only idiots believe this is about a simple confession.

Charles
isn't random, assassinations of high level government officials can be terrorism (as the IRA or FLQ). It wasn't to gain a political goal? The guy is attempting to end abortion which is a political issue in the USA.

Hell, it wasn't even Revenge, the guy didn't even know him personally.





Homeland Security
http://www.hitechcj.com/homelandsecurity/crime_terrorism.html

Exerpts
Domestic terrorism refers to activities that involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any state; appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; to influence the policy of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and, occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States

For both terrorist and hate crimes, everyone who is in the victims group feels similarly unsettled because the random nature of the violence means they have an equal chance of becoming a victim.or both terrorist and hate crimes, everyone who is in the victims group feels similarly unsettled because the random nature of the violence means they have an equal chance of becoming a victim.
Charles


So, according to the indepth definition of terrorism by Homeland Security, random certainly is part and parcel of terrorism. Following your logic whereby one does not have to be a random or seemingly random victim, anybody who is not a late term abortion doctor (there were only three in the US at the time) need not be worried whatsoever. This can hardly be classified as terrorism to me as the only group that is being assassinated with any random nature is one of three late term abortion practitioners.

As for not being revenge, I take it that you view Tiller as simply a random guy whom the murderer had never heard of and he did it not with a thought in his head of any of the 60,000 writhing fetuses this guy dispatched over his career?

Charles
So why not water board him?


Assuming he was not a citizen of the US, was not an enemy combatent, what immediate and highly deadly threat to the US as a whole might this man have knowledge of? Some realistic scenarios are in order to support your point as we, I am sure, can agree that he acted alone.
 Drew178
Joined: 4/20/2009
Msg: 194
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/2/2009 11:54:22 PM
Charles
Guy states he won't do it without Atorney General saying so, Atorney general says it's not going to happen.


Yep. He never said he will never do it. Weasel words as he still has the back door to do it if he needs to.

Charles

Which is why they waterboarded a man 183 times to try and create a link between Iraq and 9/11.


After they asked KSM what was being planned and he said repeatedly "you'll find out." Indeed they did. From what I understand there was the LA Library tower plot, Brooklyn Bridge and a few cells turned in. Pity he just didn't tell them what he knew over a cuppa joe when asked Obama style as the information was ......... 'jolly good.'.

Charles

Once again, you said that enhanced interrogation is not torture if it ends when you get the information you want.


No. I did not say that. I said that if the subject is talking and telling what he knows and, the information has a history of being true then there is no need for it.

Charles
Ummmm Abortion doctors feel intimidated by this.


I’m sure they do however, it was hardly random as he assassinated one of three late term practitioners, not the average Joe scrape ‘em. Hence, he was more than likely directly targeting this particular individual for murder rather than trying to give an overall random impression that all nurses, administration and clinic personnel were at direct risk.

Charles

The guy was arrested for bomb making years back, maybe there is a ticking time bomb somewhere, maybe he has knowledge of other Domestic terror groups like the old army of god, or his compatriats in the militia movement. Did he have a schedule available to Abortion doctors so they can see where they are in the domestic terror hit list?


Please make up your mind if you are for enhanced interrogation or against it. Right now, you seem like you are all over the map. Not only that, but you consider a guy who directly targets one of three late term abortion practitioners more of a threat than people who plan to cut cables on suspension bridges and fly planes into buildings killing tens of thousands in the process..

Charles
It was random in the sense that Tiller or other abortion doctors are not aware of if they will be targeted, after all this person did not know Tiller, there are two other late term abortion doctors who are probably quite scared right now.


Yes. I imagine they would be. Just as a serial rapist who targets collage girls would scare that particular demographic. Vile and violent but hardly terrorism Charles.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 195
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/3/2009 8:34:48 AM

First of all we water board our own soldiers as part of their training.
Neocon propaganda.

I know many, many soldiers ... my own daughter was one and NONE of them were ever water boarded.

BTW, the CIA water boarded a total of THREE guys AND IT WORKED.
There is another thread in here where that has been discussed and there is proof that more than 'THREE guys" were water boarded. We know of several who were water boarded until giving false confessions and as a result, the US illegally invaded a sovereign nation ... resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths, hundreds of thousands of wounded/maimed/mutilated ... hundreds of thousands left homeless. And as if that wasn't enough ... we tried to steal their oil.

Why are we even talking about this?
Because people have broken the law and the way that works in this country ... they need to be brought to justice and hopefully prosecuted to the fullest.

The economy is dropping faster than a busy hookers hot pants and THIS IS WHAT WE THINK IS IMPORTANT!
Yes, some of us do. We feel it's important for the example we set in the world. We need to show the nations of the people we illegally tortured that we believe it was wrong and are willing to prosecute those who did wrong. By letting this "slide", we provide them with inspiration to hate us further and recruit still more who will hate us.

Secondly, what's wrong with torturing terrorists to save American lives? I mean real torture like the Viet Cong did.
In another thread, it has already been discussed that the torture is illegal and that in fact it did not "save lives". As I stated above ... hundreds of thousands have died as a result of it.

Get real, we are fighting a war with people who behead innocent news reporters for sport.
And we illegally invade sovereign nations out of greed (for oil) which disrupted the lives of millions of people. What we have done is no better.
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 196
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/3/2009 10:40:40 AM

And we illegally invade sovereign nations out of greed (for oil) which disrupted the lives of millions of people. What we have done is no better.


Yeah, I know I've been loving that cheap gas the last couple years myself.
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 197
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/3/2009 11:19:48 AM

Neocon propaganda.

I know many, many soldiers ... my own daughter was one and NONE of them were ever water boarded.


neolib, lack of knowledge.

I was a soldier, I was water boarded as part of E&E training.

Somehow I doubt you know many soldiers, you're definitely not the type me and my comrades would have knowingly associated with- but let's pretend you do. If they are not in a combat MOS then the will not have need for such training and therefore would not receive it.

But it is an integral part of E&E, SERE and other training of that type.

Do yourself a favor, try to add something to the discussion instead of just spouting neolib talking points.

True classical liberals are spinning in their graves at the actions of the socialist hordes hiding behind a false front of liberalism.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 198
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/3/2009 1:25:48 PM




First of all we water board our own soldiers as part of their training.

Neocon propaganda.

I know many, many soldiers ... my own daughter was one and NONE of them were ever water boarded.

I was a soldier
Uh huh ...whatever you say.

I was water boarded as part of E&E training.
Sure you were ... whatever you say.

Somehow I doubt you know many soldiers ...
Actually, it's part of my job to take care of soldiers when they come home after being injured, so I do know soldiers who were in combat and I've asked them if they were ever water boarded to which all have answered, "NO!!"

So I guess "Mr. I was a soldier" doesn't quite know it all ... after all ... eh?

Anyways, back to the thread topic ...
I really don't think it's important as to how the radio host got to the conclusion that water boarding is torture. After making fun of it and saying it really wasn't torture, he apparently changed his mind and that's all that matters.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 200
Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/3/2009 2:17:56 PM
Pirateheaven, I'll go way out on a limb and surmise from your posts that you have not been keeping up with the thread, and that you have not done much research on waterboarding.

Dealing with willful ignorance does not constitute torture, but it feels like it sometimes...
 NurbyDriver
Joined: 7/30/2007
Msg: 201
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Right wing radio host gets waterboarded for 7 seconds. Admits it is torture
Posted: 6/3/2009 2:55:31 PM

Actually, it's part of my job to take care of soldiers when they come home after being injured, so I do know soldiers who were in combat and I've asked them if they were ever water boarded to which all have answered, "NO!!"


Whatever you say.

For a person who hates America as much as you do I find that very, very hard to believe but...whatever you say.

Being in combat does not necessarily mean you are in a combat MOS. But I'm sure with your extensive military knowledge you knew that. My particular MOS was sent through E&E, no amount of your 5th grader comebacks changes that fact.

Suggestion: Thicker tin foil.
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