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 AUTHOR
 Belle Requin
Joined: 2/17/2007
Msg: 13
Criminal Defense AttorneysPage 2 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

Yet, this woman attorney on this site wants to critcize me as being un educated for wanting to incarcerate criminals while she strives to set them free!
Did I forget about our arguments, or is there another like me out there? Experienced does not mean educated. I've rarely ever met educated police officers. Experienced, but lacking in any kind of formal education. It may be a matter of semantics, but you should know semantics always matter to lawyers.

I don't think my clients are garbage. They're human beings. And that so many people consider them "garbage" because of their crimes I find repugnant. I believe in inherent human dignity and personally feel that there is nothing you can do to lose the fact that you are human. Oddly enough, people like you usually justify calling them garbage because of your belief system, but they judge themselves as justified in their criminality because of their belief system- they know they committed crimes, but still feel justified. Ah, relativism has made society such a wonderful place.


The criminals are entiltled to the best legal defense possible, but if you were helping to keep criminals on the street could you look yourself in the mirror or would you throw spears at another person, justifying that you are just making a living and merely providing the best defense to which that criminal is entitled?
I look myself in the mirror, and I sleep just fine at night. I truly believe in my job, and believe that everyone facing the power of the state deserves to have someone in their corner who is willing to fight for them as they don't know how to fight for themselves. The very notion of not trying just as hard because I know my client is guilty is abhorrent.

I've met more corrupt cops than I have corrupt lawyers.
 Ezzee
Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 14
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/7/2009 8:55:19 PM

I was attacked here on another thread for attacking the attorneys that represent our guilty until proven innocent arrestees.


I know every time I am attacked in a thread I decide I absolutely must make a new thread complaining about it.


The criminals are entiltled to the best legal defense possible, but if you were helping to keep criminals on the street could you look yourself in the mirror or would you throw spears at another person, justifying that you are just making a living and merely providing the best defense to which that criminal is entitled?


Yes, because there is more to being a criminal defense attorney then helping criminals get back on the streets. Much like the American government has in place a system of checks and balances, the American Justice system also has a system of checks and balances within it. The reason being so that every person is given a fair day in court. The defense attorney is there in order to ensure that there clients rights are not being violated and that there is someone there who will ensure that corruption is kept to a minimum within the courts and police systems.


Criminal defense lawyers know that their clients are garbage, but they are getting paid by the taxpayers to repersent their clientelle, and there is a endless resource of incomm there!



Well scum is scum, sometimes its hard to diferentiate between the good guy and bad guy.


Is every criminal really garbage or scum? I would suggest to you no. There are several people who make bad choices in their younger days who once they take a trip through the criminal justice system straighten themselves out and find a way to become a productive member of society. One of the best professors that we had at my Alma Mater who taught and is the director of the paralegal department was at one time convicted of embezzlement. Yep, definitely complete garbage there.


I am familiar with a man that is a criminial defense attorney that in quiet rooms laughs about what garbage his clientelle is. Our tax dollars at work!


Is that sad? Not only is there a huge ethical problem there, one would think, in the entire concept of client/attorney privilege, but just the thought and knowledge that he is doing so makes him a horrible attorney. I’m sure if any of his clients had wordof this, they would have a good case on their hands for a mistrial.


Yet, this woman attorney on this site wants to critcize me as being un educated for wanting to incarcerate criminals while she strives to set them free!


Well, I’d like to criticize you for some things too, but I’m sure if I did, you’d just go start a new thread about it.


i kinda agree with what you say about this topic. but about 2 years ago i was arrested for felony assault and was facing 15 years in prison. i spent a total of 45 days in jail until one of these jerk off lawyers saved me. he actually did his investagation with the detectives and after a year i was cleared.


A prime example of what a good criminal defense attorney is suppose to do. Thank you for sharing.


I will advise people on expungement procedures.


Please do. We’d love to hear your advise.


One of my stupid human skills is that I tell the truth.



I have not and will not ever fabricate evidence that does not exist. I do not lie on my police reports and am made fun of for my long narratives because I tell both sides of the story.


Not only is that admirable from a human perspective, but in your chosen profession, one would think would be required. I’m not sure if you are hoping to be congratulated on that, but let me offer you a cookie anyway.


You may not like that, but if it was one sided, there would be no justice at all. We don't have to like 'em - lawyers or criminals, but rights and rules are inherently fundamental in many respects. Natural Justice. The concept applies to simple applications and licences all the way to the most serious of crimes. The greater the stakes (life/liberty), the more rules and higher thresholds regarding the evidence and burden of proof


Well, yes, in theory, I would agree with you. But I have to disagree with the concept of natural justice. While I do agree that there is certain concepts that we have agreed to as being wrong, the idea of justice and a legal system does not stem from nature but from humans and our tacit consent to follow the laws that have been laid out.


The only way I could respect one is if he removed himself from all cases where he knew a person was guilty as sin of all his/her charges ... but, I guess there isn't a whole lot of money to be made that way.



I do get the fact that they are bound by law to provide the best possible defence for any and everyone, but ... if the lawyer KNOWS he/she is guilty, can't they just not try so hard to get those people off? Many defences for guilty persons are based on lies anyway, and isn't lying supposed to be a bad thing? (haha)


That’s why it is always advised to criminals to not tell the lawyer if they are guilty or not. The only time a lawyer should know the client is guilty is if the client is ready to own up to his crimes so that the lawyer can attempt to show the client is wanting to make a reform. This is because of the fact that lawyers are under the same laws of perjury as everyone else in a court of law. Also why I run everything on a need to know basis and you don’t volunteer more information then you are asked.


Kinda like when a criminal can admit guilt to a cop, yet it is not admissible in court.... just another "mark on the wall" for the justice system.


Well, it is admissible in court as long as the “criminal” has been read their writes and has agreed to wave their Fifth Amendment right for the most part.


^^^^k, we get it... it's all about you.

Besides, if attorneys don't represent the criminals; who would you suggest should do it? Dentists? Waitresses? Doctors? Teachers?


Yeah, that would seem to sum up the entire thread and the OP.


I wish that with our tax returns we could have a choice in how we want our tax dollars used.


Hmmm, well, all your tax returns really are for is to return the excess money that was paid in by people who loaned the government extra money for the year and for the government to get the appropriate share from those who did not pay enough in. If you ant to have a say on how your tax dollars are used, you have a few choices like lobbying or becoming a legislature or mayor/governor/president.

Maybe, someday, we can find a happy medium, and the cop and the defense attorney can live together in perfect harmony with the judge and the prosecutor, but unfortunately, as the OP makes it sound, it continues to be like an episode of Tom and Jerry.
 Belle Requin
Joined: 2/17/2007
Msg: 15
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/7/2009 9:10:00 PM

That’s why it is always advised to criminals to not tell the lawyer if they are guilty or not. The only time a lawyer should know the client is guilty is if the client is ready to own up to his crimes so that the lawyer can attempt to show the client is wanting to make a reform. This is because of the fact that lawyers are under the same laws of perjury as everyone else in a court of law. Also why I run everything on a need to know basis and you don’t volunteer more information then you are asked.
Not entirely true. I can know a client is guilty and still show in court that the crown cannot prove it. I cannot offer evidence of an affirmative defence (eg: alibi) if I know the client is guilty, but I can convince a judge the prosecutor is not able to prove it was my client that committed the offence, or that the incident was actually a criminal offence. And believe me, I have no problems making a prosecutor prove their case even if I know my client is guilty. In our system, people are only supposed to be punished by the state when the state can prove they did the offence. The rest I leave to "karma," "God," "yin/yang" whichever term you want to use.
 Ezzee
Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 16
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/7/2009 9:26:37 PM

Not entirely true. I can know a client is guilty and still show in court that the crown cannot prove it. I cannot offer evidence of an affirmative defence (eg: alibi) if I know the client is guilty, but I can convince a judge the prosecutor is not able to prove it was my client that committed the offence, or that the incident was actually a criminal offence. And believe me, I have no problems making a prosecutor prove their case even if I know my client is guilty. In our system, people are only supposed to be punished by the state when the state can prove they did the offence. The rest I leave to "karma," "God," "yin/yang" whichever term you want to use.


Your right, of course, but being that I had a huge post, I didn't want to go into all of the intricacies.

It's a basic strategy of a debate sometimes. Sometimes, it just doesn't matter how weak your case/argument/points are, as long as you can poke enough holes in the opposition, you can win. Trust me, as a political scientist, I use that strategy quite a bit becaue it is an incredibly useful strategy and incredibly effective because for some reason it is not a strategy that a lot of people expect to see.

Of course, you aren't lying either. You just basically proving my point that you are not providing all of the information and are treating the case on a need to know basis.

We are saying the same thing without saying it.
 junipermoon
Joined: 3/1/2006
Msg: 17
view profile
History
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/8/2009 4:19:19 AM
ok, so...just to make sure i have this straight: we blame the defense attorney if the court decides in favor of their client. the defense attorney actually has the responsibility of demonstrating how the prosecutor's case won't stand.

so, if a guilty party goes free, it tells me that the prosecution didn't do its job.
 Revilors
Joined: 10/9/2008
Msg: 18
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/8/2009 6:19:36 AM

so, if a guilty party goes free, it tells me that the prosecution didn't do its job.


Yes and no...just a matter of symantics. It is thier "job" to prove their case.

But...they may just not have enough of the "goods" to get the job done regardless of how well they present what they do have.

In other words...they probably have an idea of the strength of their case going in. But if I were in their shoes...had a serious crime to prosecute (child rape for example)...had a weak case...I would give it a shot regardless of my chances. Always hope.
 My I
Joined: 1/23/2007
Msg: 19
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/8/2009 7:08:06 AM

I truly believe in my job, and believe that everyone facing the power of the state deserves to have someone in their corner who is willing to fight for them as they don't know how to fight for themselves.


Based on your profile submission, I question your your belief system and your views about people, in general. You're speaking like a lawyer (not a concerned person) when you raise issue of defence.

I don't fully agree with the OP. I can also see the spinning lawyers do in order to protect their right to exploit the justice system for profit. The justice system is set up moreso to advantage lawyers - not to defend a person's rights.

As a lawyer friend stated to me, "It's not about what's right or what's wrong. Nor, is it about a person's rights... it's about winning. That's how careers are measured in the law society."
 Ezzee
Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 22
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/10/2009 9:55:43 AM

Expungement:
Misdemeanor, then if you do not commit a crime for one year, a bad choice goes away.
Felony, then if you do not commit any crimes for three years, that bad choice goes away.


Well, that would seem like an over simplified definition or helping, and from my research, is not applicable in all states. In fact, in Minnesota, obtaining an expungement requires several additional steps such as notifying the victim and many other agencies of your intent to obtain one so that they may, if they choose, represent themselves at a hearing to testify against you.
 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 24
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/10/2009 10:45:38 AM
Without criminal defence lawyers, nobody could ever be convicted again.
We are all guaranteed the right to competent council. If competent council is not provided, no trial can even take place.
And if a lawyer does not look out for the best interests of their clients, any guilty verdict can be declared a mistrial.

So there you have it. Without criminal defence lawyers, we do not have a justice system.


but they are looking for a paycheck and have lost sight of right and wrong.

This is such an ignorant statement on so many levels.

To start with, criminal law is one of the lowest paying fields of law. If a lawyer is looking for an easy paycheque, the will choose a different field, like contract, or civil.
I believe the term most associated with criminal defence lawyers is, overworked and underpaid.

And who are you to dictate who has lost sight of right and wrong. You are a cop that does not respect the law in its entirety. You are simply choosing the parts you like and condeming those who support the parts you don't like.
Do you cringe when you read people their rights and get to the part about right to an attorney?

Most criminal defence lawyers choose the field because they see an injustice. They see overzealous cops, biased judges, prejudicial sentencing, and manipulitive prosecuters. So they choose a field where they can make change from within.

Criminal defence attorneys are an integral part of our justice systems. Without them we don't have a justice system.

You have a heavy presumption of guilt upon anyone put on trial, and in my opinion, this makes you a very dangerous cop.
How many innocent people will you harm because you refused to believe the possibility of their innocents, let alone presume it? How many people will get away with crimes because you had tunnel vision on the wrong suspect? And how long until you are planting evidence, if you aren't already?

And not only are you presuming peoples guilt, you are presuming that the lawyers believe their clients are guilty as well.
 Ezzee
Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 25
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/10/2009 10:31:44 PM

Previously you offered me a cookie. Here, have two of them because one doesn't look like it will satisfy you.



Mmmmm, cookie cookie cookie cookie cookie.

C is for cookie, that's good enough for me.


I also gave advice on what our local laws require.


Well, giving advice on one's local laws does wonders on a global forum. I thought you were going to offer advice on expungement. You never added the caveat about it being local to you.


Have a other cookie while you do your bookwork, Fatboy!


A other cookie? You have more than one type of cookie? Sweet Please tell me you have a stained glass cookie. That would rock. So would a bird's nest. A macaroon would be nice too.

Oh, and as far as calling me fatboy, cause lord knows I have never heard that one before. The number one rule in how to determine if someone has lost an argument is when they decide to start calling others by derogatory terms. And while I have never denied that I am personally fat, I think you have just lost any credibility and the argument as a whole.
 GrandmaBooBoo
Joined: 12/30/2006
Msg: 26
view profile
History
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/11/2009 7:01:40 AM
The answer lies in your own statement OP.
I was attacked here on another thread for attacking the attorneys that represent our guilty until proven innocent arrestees.
By your own statement, (the underlying tone) is that you were....ATTACKED.....for "attacking" someone else. What is not said, but implied by the mere mention (and insult of having been "attacked") is that YOUR attack was justified, but that theirs was in no way even eligible as "DEFENSE".

It's this kind of rather lopsided thinking that makes "defense" attorney's necessary....at least in a rational society; if we are to remain a rational society.

Like it or not, when you take rights away from one single individual, then the rights of ALL individuals is at risk. In essence, what you advocate is "freedom of speech"....as long as it's approved by the Monarchy. (in this case...that it agrees with you)

Message #9 is 100% accurate. Defense attorneys MUST present the best defense possible, not only to keep from being sued for malpractice, BUT to KEEP a conviction from being overturned on appeals due to their lawyer's incompetence.

As long as we have citizens who feel that their attacks are justifiable...and that anyone who opposes their opinions is actually the "aggressor"....rather than just another person who is defending THEIR rights; we're going to NEED defense attorneys. For goodness sakes, when we can't even see the reasonable TRUTH in silly squabbles about expressing our personal beliefs....how can we be trusted to make fair and equitable decisions (judgments) about life-altering situations???
 C2H5OH
Joined: 4/13/2009
Msg: 28
view profile
History
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/28/2009 2:40:10 PM
I hate lawyers.If Bin Laden declared Jihad on lawyers,I would give 50% of my paycheck every week to Al Qaeda.What really gets my goat is when a criminal is caught red handed,definitive evidence,and a confession and the scumbag lawyer put's the criminal back on the street because he/she found a technicality.

Swine Flu should be renamed to Lawyer Flu.
 astock
Joined: 6/25/2009
Msg: 29
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/28/2009 3:00:25 PM
so many opinions no idea on where to begin.... firstly OP you need to get off your high horse. i have a feeling your primary example of why so many cops get shot, your too high on yourself. ease on back there lassie. secondly i was incarcerated with regaurds to a felony or two or 3, they said i was planning to bomb a courthouse. my defense attorney whom i paid cash for, was an amazing individual he kept referencing our legal system to legal systems from other countries. to make a long story short the FBI searched my house the DA threatened me a few times as did a few cops and here i sit 5 years of probation and out on a technicality with only one felony on my record. after i got out i got a job paying $14/hr almost instantly so to be truthful nobody really cares what your history is if your qualified. I now with a weapons of mass destruction charge on my record own my own bussiness, get disability and am probably doing better off than you are.

moral of this story is no matter what your charged with or what you think of lawyers they are here helping people like me and i am thankful
 yna6
Joined: 1/21/2007
Msg: 30
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/28/2009 8:03:59 PM
Well..here in Canada ALL lawyers are "officers of the court" forst. so...if innocent they usually work towards getting you off, or cutting a deal with minimum sentancing...usually over a long leisurely lunch paid for by the client.

If guilty, again a deal cut...over a lunch paid for by the client....

Here it is ALL deals. If you can actually PAY a lawyer, you get way better services. Otherwise, you get a record.

Perhaps those found "not guilty" could be reimbursed ALL fees, etc and also get lost income, etc, etc. That would curtail the "guilty till innocent" mind set many have now!
 geeleebee
Joined: 5/26/2008
Msg: 32
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/30/2009 8:15:44 AM

I guess I tend to write things that can be a bit immflamatory to push peoples' buttons to see what reaction it will produce. I pushed your buttons, some of you, and..WOW! You all need to take yourselves a little bit less seriously.


You do realize, don't you, that you just admitted to being a Troll?
Might want to ask a good defense attorney if he/she can keep you out of Banned Camp...
 aleon
Joined: 5/9/2004
Msg: 34
view profile
History
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/30/2009 9:19:15 AM
Hey nocturnal, consider the source. Don't loose sleep over somone whose profession is the number one reason for this countrys coming downfall.
There are plenty of innocent people that need a good attorney, too bad most attorneys are not good people.
Remember the bus full of attorneys that went over the cliff with one empty seat. Bloody shame that!!
 itechman63
Joined: 7/7/2005
Msg: 35
view profile
History
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/30/2009 9:39:19 AM
This makes me think of the moral question depicted in the story "Cape Fear". A defense attorney withholding evidence that would have let free his knowingly guilty client thus allowing his client to go to prison. Very interesting study on the gray area of morality.
 Ezzee
Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 36
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/30/2009 9:58:49 AM

A defense attorney isn't there to try and get an innocent person to walk, the defense attorney is there to make money. The defense attorney most probably doesn't care much about the fate of his client, but cares about getting paid and about his reputation as far as getting someone off so that s/he can get paid again.


Couldn't this basically be said about all professions, just tailor it a little to the particular profession?

For example:

A police officer isn't there to try and get and protectthe public, the police officer is there to make money. The police officer most probably doesn't care much about the fate of his client (the public), but cares about getting paid and about his reputation as far as giving speeding tickets and other criminals so that s/he can get paid again.


It's really easy to tailor to any profession.
 stargazer1000
Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 40
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/30/2009 11:31:26 AM
Well, it's not a perfect system but it's the best one we got for now. Unless we want to start using a Magic 8-Ball to decide for us.
 astock
Joined: 6/25/2009
Msg: 41
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/30/2009 12:08:44 PM

The other day at the booking window, I crossed paths with a man that never had a job for a day i his life that had $3,197.00 in his pocket, chump change. He will be using a public defender because he cannot afford his own legal defense.


must suck to be a taxpayer
 Ezzee
Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 42
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/30/2009 12:13:45 PM

must suck to be a taxpayer


You tell me how you like it.
 astock
Joined: 6/25/2009
Msg: 43
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/30/2009 12:35:43 PM

You tell me how you like it


on Disability <--
 astock
Joined: 6/25/2009
Msg: 46
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/30/2009 7:50:32 PM

My best guess is that you would not even trust them with your computer password, let alone your home, your children and your bank accounts, or even your car keys.


well lets see, no computer password, so thats a bust, don't lock the house so guess thats a bust, children live here so guess thats a bust, don't shred my bank statements and keep a check book in every car so thats a bust, don't lock my car half of the time, and 3 of them the key is stuck in the ignition. holy carp. looks like i'm just screwed


 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 48
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 6/30/2009 10:01:41 PM
Ok, I'm pretty sure the OP is not a cop.


First of all, I will not be charged with a crime.


Innocent cops get charged with crimes all the time. The only cops I have ever met, who did not worry about being wrongfully accused, were the dirtiest cops you could think of.


I would be required to pay for my defense if such a situation happened.

You are trash talking all criminal defenders, not just the public defenders. Or maybe that's your real issue: poor people.


However, there is a service known as pre-paid legal for the persons that seem to feel the need to always have a lawyer on retainer. To me, that is not being cynical, but is just plain sad!

If you were a cop, you would be paying into a legal defense fund. That is a type of pre-paid legal services. But unlike most pre-paid legal, which is mostly for civil law, police legal defense funds are specifically for criminal defense (civil defense is usualy allowed)

But the real reason why I think this poster is not a cop is because of Mark Furhman.
Some of you may remember Fuhrman from the OJ trial. He was the cop who found the glove, and was also caught uttering the N word several times.
Because Furhman appeared as a racist to the jury, they did not accept that it was proven to be OJ's glove.

If she were really a cop, anytime she is involved in a trial, every defense attorney can show her writings in court, and simply tell the jury, "we can't trust this cop, she does not believe in the possibility of innocence let alone presume it, and she promotes vigalante justice."

Maybe she is really a cop, just a clueless one.
 Super Ryan
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 53
Criminal Defense Attorneys
Posted: 7/2/2009 9:12:14 AM
Does anyone remember Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean?

They were the two border guards who received 10 year mandatory sentences for firing on a drug smuggler.

By many people's standard, they did nothing wrong. Yet, because of bad luck, or an overzealous DA, they needed a good criminal defense attorney.

So maybe, when people decide they want to be a criminal defense attorney, they are looking at cases like Ramos and Compean as a reason to get into the field.
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