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 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 209
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?Page 10 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)
You might want to keep the flames down in your responses...

The standard rules to prevent infection are there for the person administering the injection just as much as the person receiving it.

There is the possibility of stay of execution so one is required (until the lethal chemical is administered) to keep the convict healthy. And otherwise, standard rules for "sharps" apply.

I am not a phlebotomy expert, I do not play one on TV, but I do actually know several...I don't think we need to call in any as this information is readily available on the net.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 210
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/8/2010 9:40:43 PM

You should move to Saudi Arabia. They actually do that there. Off with the big head at least, for certain crimes. And it's done in public, in Riyadh, in a place called "Chop-chop Square" by locals. http://www.walrusmagazine.com/articles/2009.05-field-notes-chop-chop-square/


Sorry, but this is hyperbole, within the scope of proving your point.

If you can post a link to a heinous form of human execution, then the counter should be under equal consideration. Violent and murderous pedophiles.


I'm against the death penalty totally, except with the possible exception of terrorists using weapons of mass destruction - or war collaborators. These are exceptional cases, and still would be held to the highest possible standard of proof to be considered.


So what you are saying is that the death penalty is correct, perceived through the lens of global impersonal criminalism, but personal atrocities don't merit the same exact punitive measures?

Why?

It doesn't make sense to me.

The only thing that has made sense to me thus far, is this:


But allowing the state to kill anyone is a slippery slope that we don't want to return to.


That speaks to political/ethical reasoning, outside any moral/emotional conviction.


funny how all these "nonreligious" types want to get all high and mighty when it comes to this issue...


This is not a discussion on religion, this is a discussion on the death penalty.


What makes us civilized, or not, is how well we structure our society to protect us from our misguided urges and instead demonstrate that collectively we can be more civilized than we might be individually. that's why we have governments and laws.


Only, the laws do not necessarily reflect the cocoon of human rights. Is this news to anyone?


But I'm more concerned with assuring they never can do that again


If they are dead, they can't. (Unless one believes in ghosts or reincarnation.)


If we endorse vengeance, we endorse each of us taking the law into our own hands and exacting our own vengeance.


I am curious...so what are your views on self-defense?
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 211
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/8/2010 9:45:00 PM
If you want the capital punishment, I'll give you capital punishment.

The problem with the death penalty is, there's no guarantee.
Give me a guarantee and I'll be in favor of the death penalty.

If the government executes the wrong person, if the government kills an innocent person by mistake, how does the victim get justice ?

If the lead prosecutor is willing to put up HIS OWN LIFE as a guarantee that the correct man is being executed, then I'll give you the death penalty.

If the lead prosecutor picks up a gun and shoots an innocent man on the street, we would have no problem charging him with murder.
If the lead prosecutor works the legal system to kill an innocent man, shouldn't he then also be tried for murder ?

After all, an eye for an eye and all that.
If we have no mercy for murderers, then we should have no mercy for them even if they work for the government.
 *pisceseyes
Joined: 9/30/2009
Msg: 212
!!!
Posted: 4/8/2010 10:46:50 PM

This is not a discussion on religion, this is a discussion on the death penalty


point taken..and your correct(about religion)... HOWEVER *some* shouldnt be so HIPPOCRITICAL when it comes to "death by man's hand" when "the same" people ADVOCATE LATE term abortion which in essence, is the same thing..only DIFFERENCE is the BABIES are INNOCENT....

(pro choice btw....early term before the baby is viable)

'leave my body alone" ???? .....LEAVE MY ****ING MONEY ALONE PAYING FOR YOUR LATE TERM BIRTH CONTROL AND YOUR IRRESPONSIBILTY".....


"moral compass" can mean alot to alot of people.....


to me..IF YOU KILL MY FAMILY OR OTHERS AND CONFESS..YOUR GOING DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you dont deserve to live here and suck up MY AND OTHERS DIME AND GET EDUCATED AND GET PLASTIC SURGERY(its happening) when LAW ABIDING CITIZENS NEED THOSE FUNDS DESPERATLEY.....PRO DEATH PENALTY FOR THE SELF CONFESSED FOR SURE...that's my morals...
 Sweet_Le_Senza
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 213
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!!!
Posted: 4/9/2010 12:50:00 AM

IF YOU KILL MY FAMILY OR OTHERS AND CONFESS..YOUR GOING DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you dont deserve to live here and suck up MY AND OTHERS DIME AND GET EDUCATED AND GET PLASTIC SURGERY(its happening) when LAW ABIDING CITIZENS NEED THOSE FUNDS DESPERATLEY.....PRO DEATH PENALTY FOR THE SELF CONFESSED FOR SURE...that's my morals...


See that statement just doesn't make any sense!

This is a perfect example of a citizen getting her info from the media as opposed to any kind of academic resources. Guaranteed!
 Sweet_Le_Senza
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 214
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!!!
Posted: 4/9/2010 12:59:55 AM

point taken..and your correct(about religion)... HOWEVER *some* shouldnt be so HIPPOCRITICAL when it comes to "death by man's hand" when "the same" people ADVOCATE LATE term abortion which in essence, is the same thing..only DIFFERENCE is the BABIES are INNOCENT....


death penalty and abortion are not the same thing! I think it's funny how people think they are!
1) Death penalty is imposed by the state on those who have been found guilty of committing a crime.
2) This *baby* that you speak of has no rights therefore is not protected by the constitution so don't give me any bullshit about "killing an innocent baby* cuz that would be first degree murder which would be punishable in some areas with the death penalty so pshaw on that!

It's not the same thing and I'm glad we had a chance to clear that up with some FACTS!
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 215
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/9/2010 5:20:39 AM

I am curious...so what are your views on self-defense?


Self defense is a completely different situation. If you attack me or anyone else of course we should and do have the right to defend ourselves. But if you injure me or someone I love and I find out where you live and bring my buddies to come beat you or kill you that's NOT right, even if it's understandable.

I feel those urges the same as anyone else. But feeling an urge does not justify acting on that urge. Once again, that's why we have governments and laws and a penal system. And I believe the purpose of those processes should never be vengeance, but appropriate punishment and rehabilitation for lesser crimes, life without parole to remove the worse offenders from society WITHOUT institutionalizing the taking of life.

I know others feel differently, but also know that the U.S. has very little company in the world in terms of other countries who still utilize the death penalty, not countries we'd want to emulate in other policy practices.

Dave
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 216
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!!!
Posted: 4/9/2010 5:49:02 AM

IF YOU KILL MY FAMILY OR OTHERS AND CONFESS..YOUR GOING DOWN!


I don't think confessions amount to 100% proof of guilt. Some people would rather commit suicide by state than deal with the future they envision. Some people are badgered into confessions they later retract. But I get your point. Maybe if there is some difference between beyond a reasonable doubt and 100% certainty, like video evidence, or hundreds of witnesses where there is no possibility of any doubt, then you could start hacking and slashing your way to peaceful vengence.


This is not a discussion on religion, this is a discussion on the death penalty


There are lots of biblical references to the death penalty of that's what you're into. People have to have some kind of moral grounds for their opinions. You can find evidence either for or against in the Bible. Totally handy book to throw at people either way.
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 217
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/9/2010 7:16:15 AM

If you can post a link to a heinous form of human execution, then the counter should be under equal consideration. Violent and murderous pedophiles.


Three words : Life without parole.
 migivadamsbusted
Joined: 4/30/2007
Msg: 218
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/10/2010 8:15:15 AM
keep the lowlifes in prison where they can get 3 meals a day, free dental, free health, take courses, free legal, sure I'm missing other things...BS!!! all that for taking someones life...not to mention the fact they still have theirs. Once again, I'm for the death penalty.
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 219
!!!
Posted: 4/10/2010 12:10:46 PM

There are lots of biblical references to the death penalty of that's what you're into. People have to have some kind of moral grounds for their opinions. You can find evidence either for or against in the Bible. Totally handy book to throw at people either way.


Unfortunately most lay individuals reading the Bible in a literal fashion have NO IDEA about what is actually being said in Old Testament (in other words Hebrew) Torah Law regarding crime and punishment and think the literal translation is all there is regarding interpretation and so, foolishly, believe their literal King James interpretation is the correct one and merely a life for a life is "God's Will" and somehow their personal beliefs in what they imagine the Bible says is justification for the death penalty.

As it is often said, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." You would no more want a butcher performing your appendectomy or a car mechanic fixing your nuclear bomb than you would want a non-Hebrew speaker giving you an interpretation on Jewish law...and guess what: a death penalty under Hebrew Law is VERY HARD to get. It's so hard to get in fact that conviction would almost be easier under modern law.

To obtain a conviction you need a minimum of two witnesses of unimpeachable character - meaning they have to be as a minimum people who keep halakah (Jewish Torah Law) as impeccably as possible - who actually witnessed the crime being committed. If there were no such witnesses, no death penalty may be handed down. Period. It was said that a rabbinical court that handed out a death penalty once in seven years was considered to be "bloodthirsty." These guys were not Texas.

So alas, as respectfully as I can put this (which isn't very) those Christians who cite Old Testament Law as their source for the death penalty as if it is literal and fact, simply do not know what the #### they are talking about. Death by stoning...there's another one...

The pagans did it one way (in this context being non-Jews) where you put someone in a pit and throw boulders at them until they die...pretty barbaric. According to Jewish Law, again, any death sentence has to be instantaneous. Therefore to "stone" someone required that you take them to a high place overlooking a stone landing where a fall would instantly kill. Also no mutilation of the body was allowed, so many of the methods employed by other nations, also out. Because of Leviticus 19:18, the Golden Rule, to which all other laws and commandments must be viewed through regarding interactions with other people (yes, Jesus didn't make this one up himself, he learned it in shul from his rabbi like all they other good boychiks in the neighborhood)

http://www.jlaw.com/Briefs/capital2.html

While speaking to a Lt. Col. in Canada's equivalent to the JAG office, before he left for Afghanistan, we came to the conclusion a better alternative would be to make the civilian prison system operate under military justice. EVERY single privilege has to be earned...right to exercise, a smoke, any tv, a book. From sunup to sundown, every activity is regulated. You must return every space to pristine condition from your bunk, to your bathroom, to your kitchen space. you make your own food, clean your own clothes, etc. The level of recidivism was below 5%. It's not a holiday.
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 220
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Posted: 4/10/2010 3:37:11 PM
^^ As far as stoning, I highly recommend the film , "The Stoning of Soraya M". It is about an actual event which occurred in Iran, in a small town out in the countryside, in the late 70's after the revolution.

Unfortunately actual stonings just as (quite graphically) depicted in this film do still occur there, for adultery primarily (and oftentimes it is easy to essentially frame women for it, due to certain ass-backward & brutally chauvinistic elements within Islamic law basically).

But people should know, IMO, what "God's law" (per the Old Testament and the Koran at least) actually looks like in practice ......well, at least a very realistic dramatization of it which gives you about as close a look at it as you'd ever want to see ...

They also do publicly execute condemned in the larger cities in Iran as well however, for other crimes, homosexual behavior is one for which men have been hung for instance. So it's not necessarily something that's relegated to the "back country".

In the bigger cities the convicted men (and women, girls as young as 15 or 16 -- relatively recently) are usually hung by their necks from a crane, while the public is free to watch. Not unlike the grisly spectacle which occurs on Fridays in the earlier mentioned "Chop-Chop Square" in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, or the notorious soccer stadium executions which were performed regularly in Taliban-ruled Afghanistan.

It's a slippery slope , IMO, from advocating fast and brutal (let's say, gunshot, after only one or no appeals) type of death penalty, to advocating public executions for "deterrence" purposes, to....... well, see Iran or Saudi Arabia....

And what was Foucault thinking siding with the Islamists during the Iranian Revolution??? I mean , was that just taking a deliberately contrarian and provocative position to be outrageous, or ... ?? I mean, once in power they'd have hung a gay French philosopher into S & M from the first available crane...
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 221
!!!
Posted: 4/10/2010 4:13:18 PM


But people should know, IMO, what "God's law" (per the Old Testament and the Koran at least) actually looks like in practice ......well, at least a very realistic dramatization of it which gives you about as close a look at it as you'd ever want to see ...


Well it will be stoning as per Koranic Law and Christian literalist interpretation of the Torah...

It will not be as practiced according to Jewish Law from Mosaic times onward through the times of collation of the Talmud into writing, simply because it does not take into account the passage from Leviticus I mentioned earlier. I cannot stress enough how necessary it is to view this in it's proper context. I am not trying to act as an apologist for this Bronze Age religion (I know, prepare for the chorus of "coulda fooled me's") but illustrating that unless one has a complete picture of the information they simply cannot make an accurate judgment.

Christians and Muslims, discarding or failing to recognize the validity of the Oral Law (in many cases being completely unaware of it) would never bother to concern themselves with the necessity of neither causing as little pain to the judged or not disfiguring the body so the kind of stoning you suggest or beheading would be fine.

As a result, all Torah must be viewed in context of the basic rules of it. I'm no Torah scholar, but I know this minimum. It's funny what you can learn by asking a few questions...and one thing I know is the Christian/Muslim justification for an "eye for an eye" is based on misunderstanding and misapplication of Hebrew Scriptures which they appropriated for their own faiths.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 222
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Posted: 4/11/2010 7:32:08 AM
I don't know much about if or when , how frequently, etc, the ancient Hebrews might have stoned women, or what exact methods they might have employed, but I think the most disturbing thing about all of it is that these kinds of seventh-century desert executions are still being practiced in at least two modern day countries (both OPEC members at that ). OPEC should take a stand against stoning, beheading, hand amputation, and so on.
 whiskeypapa
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 223
!!!
Posted: 4/11/2010 8:03:48 AM
The men hung in Iran were not hung because they were homosexual, they were hung because they raped young boys.

Perhaps, if the us/isreral refrained from killing civilians indescriminately OPEC could be persueded to take a stand against stoning , beheading and so on. What is the difference between beheading and having a hopped up yank drop a 500 lb. bomb on your house?
How many convicts , who may have been falsely convicted, did Bush exucute when he was Governor of Texas?
 themadfiddler
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 224
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Posted: 4/11/2010 8:10:28 AM
Oh I entirely agree. While perusing a national geographic article recently it was very surprising to see what nations were still participating in capital punishment and to see the USA alongside nations like Saudi Arabia, China, Iran...and yet claiming moral high ground of some kind. No no, you have the right of it.
 xxxDINOxxx
Joined: 8/12/2009
Msg: 226
!!!
Posted: 4/11/2010 9:14:59 AM
While perusing a national geographic article recently it was very surprising to see what nations were still participating in capital punishment and to see the USA alongside nations like Saudi Arabia, China, Iran...and yet claiming moral high ground of some kind


^^^ Exactly. Nothing wrong, IMO, with feeling that your country can do better than notorious human rights violators such as those. I posted a link to a comprehensive list, a couple pages back in the thread, of which nations had outlawed (or de-facto outlawed) DP, and which still have not. US is in relatively p!ss-poor company on this list. ETA: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html
 migivadamsbusted
Joined: 4/30/2007
Msg: 228
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/11/2010 9:42:07 AM
just like in every situation there are exceptions. nothing is black and white or cut and dry. and yes I still believe in the death penalty.
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 229
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/12/2010 7:30:07 PM
If the death penalty worked, then eventually no one would commit a crime that qualified them for it. The problem is that criminals don't plan on getting caught, and that's why we still have people committing those crimes.

Those executioners in Saudi Arabia won't have to worry about being unemployed, nor will any other executioners.

If there was a connection between the death penalty and reduction of such crimes, then one would expect to see an increase in those crimes in countries and areas that have outlawed the death penalty - and there isn't. If one looks at demographics at the same time (remembering that a larger number of young males may in fact make violent crime more likely, as these are the main part of the population responsible for such crimes), one cannot make a case that the death penalty alone decreases such crimes....

As for those claiming prison to be so great, the fact that some criminals seem to spend a lot of time and energy escaping from them may indicate it's not that great a life. I've yet to see anyone in a rush to get captured and serve their sentence, either.
 Sweet_Le_Senza
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 231
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/13/2010 6:12:53 AM
Another thing that doesn't work is the 3 strikes rule!

This 'get tough' approach on crime is not the answer. It's doing more harm then good however due to the publics lack of knowledge pertaining to crime prevention and deterrence the voting public is quick to put in those who will do what the public wants.....just to get the votes.

it's not rocket science! :P
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 232
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/13/2010 7:06:25 AM
Since 1972, we executed 139 people who have since been exhonorated for the alleged crime. The culture didn't blink an eye then while doing an eye for an eye even if it was the wrong eye. We recently applied the death penalty to over a million Iraqis who had nothing to do with 9/11, and felt no remorse whatsoever as a nation. A large percentage of those victims were women and children. How can we expect any sort of moral responsibility as a people when our own widespread immorality is so readily accepted as normal human behavior. We stand ready with our injections, pitchforks, stones, ropes, drones, Apache Helicopters and automatic weaponry to rain down our " justice" indiscriminately and immediately, damn the truth.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 233
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History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/14/2010 2:01:35 AM
pirateheaven...Yupper, I be wrong. The number was 138 and we did not execute them, but they were on death row and they were exonerated.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty
The exonerated tend to be disproportionately black. The US lynched 3445 black Americans from 1882 to 1964, most without due process or proof of guilt. Today the mobs are a bit more civilized, but upon execution, the case is closed to ensure that we may never ascertain innocence after the fact.

This microscopic veneer of civilized behavior that ensures relatively fair trials and appeals could quickly drop away at any time and we could revert to the good old days of local vigilante justice, lynchings and witch burnings.
 Sweet_Le_Senza
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 234
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/14/2010 5:26:16 AM

Let prisoners work for a living.


That's actually a good idea.
Another thing give them educations. None of this math and English bullshit. If they are in their for 10 years and are 19 when they get in, give them the whole shebang!

People who have the "if they do the crime let them do the time" don't understand the consequences of that term.
If we 'tag' these offenders, when they get out, the chances of them getting their life back together can be limited, ie jobs, with this 'ex-con' label.
Therefore it is very tempting for these individuals to go back into the criminal lifestyle and these individuals who go before the courts are represented by public defenders, therefore it's a revolving door!

As for the public defender I will look into how many executed and those awaiting executed had public defenders!

Those lawyers suck ass!
 Sweet_Le_Senza
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 236
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/14/2010 9:28:32 AM
Little, I think you're a little confused here! Actually I think you're a lot confused!


stand up for some of these inmates who are being rape & force to have abortion.


My arguments on public defenders vs private defenders pretty much gives you an idea of the issues within the justice system!!

2) Officers committing crimes is not new! I'm a fan of Jerome Skolnick so don't even get me started on that cuz I could talk circles around you and leave you spinning for days!


allot of those who leave prison come right back in within a week to a year...its a money making deal...


I've explained the revolving door theory! This money making deal fiasco that you speak of is the publics doing! The public want officers to find someone responsible for the crime as soon as possible especially if it is a violent offence. In situations like that innocent citizens get sent to prison. So don't give me any bullshit about what my taxes are doing! If you think that an offender who is on parole with a PHD is going to get hired in a prestigious position somewhere you're nuts!

It doesn't work that way! Why? Because he's been tagged by the state as an ex-con so your argument is fluff! One big ball of fluff!
 Devilsfan58
Joined: 3/19/2009
Msg: 237
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Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 5/4/2010 11:53:32 PM
Yes.

But I think we should harvest body parts first. There is a shortage of organs in this country.

Is it possible? I don't know. I would hope so.
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