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 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 121
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?Page 4 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)

The judicial system is imperfect; eyewitnesses, over zealous prosecutors, sub par defense attorneys and juries, all capable of mistakes. Wrongful convictions are not isolated events.
The death penalty is archaic and has shown time and time again to not decrease violent crime. What kind of civilized society kills its' citizens?


An imperfect society which strives to provied eash citizen the rights to live and enjoy the fruits of their labor in peace. A society of Laws, that must at times, exact justice from those who deny citizens of their rights of Life, Liberty and Property.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 123
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/4/2009 8:02:18 AM

you sound like you are trying to make the death penalty -
patriotic



The 5th Amendmen to the U.S. Constitution-

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 125
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/4/2009 3:45:02 PM

nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."



I call the death penalty "cruel and unusual punishment"


the 5th allows the death as a penalty along as Due Process is applied, the 8th says punishmnet not to be cruel unusual...

each addresses a separate issue.
 HarDayKnight
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 130
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 7:18:41 AM
Considering the number of times God sanctioned war in the Old Testament, I believe that "Thall shalt not kill" is meant to be "Thou shalt not commit murder".



http://www.learnthebible.org/would-jesus-oppose-the-death-penalty.html



 HarDayKnight
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 132
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 8:02:54 AM

hahah, well following that line of thought on Jesus's teaching there will be about 15 people left alive in the US, assuming the adultery is grounds for the death penalty as that proposes.



I hope that's not all you brought away from reading that.



me, I'll stick with the ten commandments. Thou Shalt Not Kill. if god had meant Thou Shalt Not Murder he would have said so.



That's assuming the translation to kill is the correct translation, as murder is a close relative in meaning. In context with all the God sanctioned killing in the bible, I think (And many religious scholars do as well) that the correct translation is "Though shalt not commit murder."
 HarDayKnight
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 134
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 9:10:25 AM

one looney web page is not "many religious scholars" and interpreting what god "really" meant is more than tad presumptuous.


Not just "one looney page." Here are text from many different bibles. Some say kill. Some say murder. That implies that there is at least an argument as to what the correct translation should be.

http://bible.cc/matthew/19-18.htm
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 135
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 9:26:02 AM
I'll stick with the ten commandments. Thou Shalt Not Kill. if god had meant Thou Shalt Not Murder he would have said so.


the only problem is you didnt give a punishment for killing, or maybe the 10 Commandments didnt...

What should be the punishment for breaking the commandment of Thou shalt not kill?

or does man have the right to assign punishment, or do we wait till each man is judged before God?
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 138
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 6:49:26 PM
I'm completely opposed to the death penalty.

It makes us *all* guilty when our government puts people to death on our behalf.

It brutalizes our society when we kill people.

Are there people who have committed heinous crimes? Yes. Should they be imprisoned for the rest of their lives? Yes.

Are there innocent people who have been convicted of murder? Yes. If we kill them, we are then guilty of killing an innocent person. That person could be you or someone you know.

I don't think this is about the bible. The bible is not the law of our land. It is about being civilized.

Life in prison: yes. Capital punishment: no.
 HarDayKnight
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 141
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/14/2009 8:30:40 PM

I don't give a rat's arse what the bible says about anything
I live in secular- America
that means that the laws here have nothing to do with religious doctrine

funny-
when I was growing up
and forced to attend church
the scriptures and commandments used the wording "thou shall't not kill"
but today,
to justify eating meat, war, the death penalty- etc
the wording has changed to "thou shall't not murcer"
so christians can rationalize
death, death and more death
how...............
uh, convenient


My support of capital punishment has nothing to do with Christianity. I'm not religious. There are a lot of Christians who do not support the death penalty either.

I've always found it odd that many people, who do not condone the putting to death of convicted murderers (Yes, I understand that sometimes someone is wrongly convicted.), have absolutely no problem with the wholesale slaughter of 100% innocent children through abortion. I know some would like to turn that around on people who do support the death penalty, but not abortion; but, it's not the same distinction. No wrongfully convicted murderer is killed on purpose and with full knowledge of what is being done. (If he/she is, those responsible should also be up on charges.)

Some argue that capital punishment isn't a deterrent to murder being committed. Maybe that's true on some level. I don't know, but it sure cuts down on repeat offenders.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 12/29/2005
Msg: 143
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 6:37:46 AM

The maximum allowable punishment should be life in prison,



If all murder is wrong, why a maximum punishment...murder is muder. Shouldnt all murderers go to prison for life?

Why would one person's murder be less to warrant the maximum punishment.

Well, you work out whose life is more important and what the different sentences of muder should be, then get back to me.
 HarDayKnight
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 145
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 11:14:12 AM

First using the term wholesale slaughter, at least in this country is a bit overboard. Despite the fact that abortion is technically legal in this country, there are large areas, especially the mid-west and south where anti-abortionists have shut down the clinics that provide, among other health services, abortions. For a large number of poor people who don't have the means to travel to another state, abortion is not available. I don't think there is a wholesale number of abortions going on.

Secnodly, in my view, abortion in the early stages, first few weeks , is not slaughtering an innocent child , but terminating a potential human. There isn't anywhere near a fully developed brain so there is no personality, no individuality, no consciousness. Many pregnancies terminate naturally at this point due to some problem, does that mean god/nature is guilty of murder? I think it's a woman's choice whether to deliver or not. If there is a god, it's her decision to deal with the consequences, not ours.

As far as later term abortions go, these are only done when it's a choice between the mother's life and the child's life. I don't think any woman carries a child for 6, 7 or 8 months and then decides to abort it. And if were my choice between the life that was already in the world (my wife) and the life that is not yet in the world (the child she's carrying) I would choose my wife.



What ever makes you feel better. People can justify just about anything. Compared to the number of innocent people sentenced to death every year, the number of children aborted every year is on the level of Holocaust numbers. Even late term abortions are ridiculously higher than the number of innocent people convicted of the death penalty... Hell. Every murderer that's been executed over the last decade (Whether guilty or not.) doesn't hold a candle to the number of children thrown away in one year in just the city of Washington, DC. Only 1,171 executions have been carried out in the USA since 1976.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/hea_abo_rat-health-abortion-rate

What you feel should be considered a human being, is your opinion. Opinions vary.
 winteragain
Joined: 3/26/2009
Msg: 146
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 11:46:04 AM
Death penalty rocks! Even if it kills innocent people that had absolutely nothing to do with the crime and were just at the scene at the perfect time and left the perfect evidence for prosecution. Hey innocent guy, don't be such a perfectly innocent criminal. I'm sure the death penalty kills more true criminals than innocent ones though, which is good. Some collateral damage is expected. Hope I don't end up in death row for posting this but if it happens i wouldn't mind it.
 HarDayKnight
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 148
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 1:15:52 PM

It doesn't make me feel better or worse, it just my belief, and not my decision. And again, embryos and fetuses, not babies. What people consider to be a human being varies usually with religion. Now I'm an atheist, but most Christians consider it human at the moment of conception, in the Jewish religion I was taught it's not human until the crown of the head passes out of the mother. This was probably to allow the mother's life to take precedence over the babies. So who's religion do we go with if that's the approach you want to take?

Personally I believe it is human when the brain the baby is sufficiently developed for thought processes to go on. But even this cannot be determined from a time standpoint as we have no way to read a mind. I'm reluctant to define it further than that. Each fetus differs in development. I just hold to my belief that it's the woman's choice, with some input from me if she were my wife, but still ultimately her body, her choice.



Once again, I'm not religious. Most of the older Asia born friends I have, count their age from conception. In recent years this has become less prevalent, as a moral shift to encompass and soften the high practice of abortion there occurs.

If the measure of a human's viability is it's level of mental development, how do we measure that? As far as I know, babies do not go from non-thinking blobs of flesh to sentient beings in the space of time it takes to pass through the birth canal. Most of us do not have conscious memories of our lives before the age of 3-4 years old. Is that when life actually starts. Or is it later when the ability to reason and think objectively develops? (That could be a danger for some adults I know.)
 HarDayKnight
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 151
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 3:37:24 PM

One could take it all the way back to sperm. One could say that all sperm are viable human life and you shouldn't be wanking off as it is murder. Some religions actually take this position.


One could, I suppose, but considering the number of sperm that die each time a baby IS conceived, let alone all the times people have intercourse and a child isn't conceived, that would be extreme. Besides, even if you don't ejaculate, excess sperm are passed in the urine. So, the argument could also be made that every time you take a piss you're committing murder. That would be silly. I don't think conception being the beginning of a person's life is silly. Inconvenient? Yes. But not silly.

There is a gap in the time when scientists say a fetus can feel pain. (Between 10 and 28 weeks, depending on the study and the politics of those doing the study.) Should this be a consideration when taking into account the viability of an unborn child? For all we know it could be even earlier.
 arwen52
Joined: 3/13/2008
Msg: 153
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 5:41:07 PM

I'm firmly opposed to the death penalty. Frankly, the posters who say they're generally opposed, but the heinousness of a crime makes them waver, scare me a great deal too, and not just the criminals.


I once read an article in The New Yorker that made even me reconsider my opposition to the death penalty. It was about some particularly violent Neo-Nazis who are on death row in several prisons. Even though they are in solitary confinement, they've managed to kill other prisoners and guards. They have nothing to lose, they are already condemned to death. Have to admit I'm not sure what to do with someone like that.

I still can't condone it, though.
 HarDayKnight
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 154
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/15/2009 6:45:03 PM

This thread is about the death penalty, not abortion. If you want to discuss and debate abortion, why not start a new thread on that topic?


How do you separate the two? When value of life comes up in the capital punishment debate, the disconnect (And apparent hypocrisy involved) between abortion and the death penalty invariably becomes part of the debate. It's relevant to the issue.
 HarDayKnight
Joined: 12/27/2007
Msg: 157
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/16/2009 12:06:49 PM

You got to be kidding!!!


Depends on the argument being put forth. If you read my earlier posts, you should have seen that I do not think they are the same issue. Just that when you start talking about the morality of taking a life, the people who find the death penalty repulsive tend to have no problem with abortion. The ones who find both repulsive have my respect, but not my agreement.
 sunny snow storm
Joined: 12/21/2008
Msg: 163
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:18:23 PM
absolutely not!
thou shall not kill!
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