Notice: Forums will be shutdown by June 2019

To focus on better serving our members, we've decided to shut down the POF forums.

While regular posting is now disabled, you can continue to view all threads until the end of June 2019. Event Hosts can still create and promote events while we work on a new and improved event creation service for you.

Thank you!

Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  >      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Sweet_Le_Senza
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 193
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?Page 6 of 13    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13)

Prosecutors don't have the power to order execution.


They actually have more power then you think! ;)
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 194
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/6/2010 1:03:08 PM
This is not a question of using force to prevent a crime or lethal force to do the same, but following the commission of a crime, with full intention and foreknowledge, in cold blood do we institutionalize state murder of any individual.


I agree 100% intellectually and when I think rationally about this, my own reasoning follows along the same lines.


“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.”


If I could, (and if someone were to try to seriously harm either my children or a close loved one) I think I would; wouldn't that fall under vigilante "justice"?


But allowing the state to kill anyone is a slippery slope that we don't want to return to.


I can understand and most definitely empathize with this sentiment.


Just ask any former Soviet bloc or any current Chinese political dissident. Or anyone convicted of certain crimes in Saudi Arabia...


Are you providing examples of totalitarian governments in an attempt at an exaggerated correlation? The death penalty is already in place here in the States.

And globally speaking, what about those have committed war crimes? Should they simply be imprisoned? Would they not be a rallying factor in those who wish to see them free, thus perpetuating war?

I am merely trying to achieve an emotional and intellectual congruence with regards to my ideals, and this is an area where I struggle...

 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 195
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/6/2010 3:51:06 PM
I am wondering what the hard-core death penalty advocates feel about due justice, when people we train, desensitize and dehumanize "targets", kill civilians around the world with impunity. I personally know a young man who, with his unit, mistakenly took out a family of 14. His only punishment is to live a life with PTSD, self-destructive behavior and suicidal thoughts. There is an increasing incidence of "collateral death" happening as we mechanize and sanitize our wars on the world. The video in the following links illustrate how our troops have become judge, jury and executioners of innocent lives. The harshest part of watching them is the laughter, joking, and lightness they take in raining down death. At one point they are giggling about a body being run over by a Bradley. Do these people deserve the death penalty? Can they be rehabilitated? Will they be able to stop killing on a whim when they are re-introduced to civilized culture? Just curious on what kind of killing does not deserve the death penalty.
Warning..very unsettling for people with PTSD from war, sensitive people and people with humanity still in their souls. Two journalists and two young kids were among the victims.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/05/wikileaks-exposes-video-o_n_525569.html
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 196
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/7/2010 10:31:57 AM
i for one do not believe in the death penalty, the reason, is simple, and it is one that every one knows, if you have a tone of money, you can get a lawyer or lawyers to tie up the system for ever, and yes rich people get away with everything, even murder, our system is really flawed
a poor person, can get year for, for robbing someone, if that person is killed, than have his or her life taken from them, at the same time, ,,i will use bernie madoff as an example, his 65 billion, mugging has gotten him what, prison, is it not odd that the man that stole so much from so many people, and charities, which in fact resulted in many more deaths than any serial killer in history, once in prison, was diagnosed with cancer(a little odd isnt it), and is now living in relative luxury,murder is murder, the people that needed the charity, are dying, many old people lost there ability to live loosing everything, many took there own lives
the justice system does not work, it does not work at all, not in canada, or in the united states
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 197
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/7/2010 9:43:40 PM
I'm against the death penalty totally, except with the possible exception of terrorists using weapons of mass destruction - or war collaborators. These are exceptional cases, and still would be held to the highest possible standard of proof to be considered.

The Dutch outlawed the death penalty in the 1930's ( if I remember correctly), but temporarily brought it back at the end of WW2. They executed the worst of the collaborators - and then banned it again.

There are some things that have to be dealt with in such a manner - but not in the regular course of events in criminal trials.

Other than that, even for the worst killer possible, it's a no go for me.

I think a life without parole is a worthy penalty for such crimes.
 late™
Joined: 2/1/2010
Msg: 198
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/7/2010 10:14:23 PM
I've always been against capital punishment (ew...talk about a greasy term), I have two areas I can go to the fence with the waffle iron on medium-high, knowing full well that one is a purely emotional conviction and not reasoned, the other is just a reasoned solution to the worst possible quality of humanity.

1. Child Predators/Sexual Predators - I think I can make an exception not just because of the crime, not just because of recidivism --> but because I can so very easily dehumanize them because I think that their actions do this for them already. So sue me... I'm a parent, it's a emotional conviction, reason is not a persuading factor when I let my mind drift to ....what if. (parents will know what I speak of, non-parents may, ...but not really). It's not a reasoned place, I admit it, ...but I do so without shame.

2. Those Who Profit From War: (it matters not to me what "side" they're on), this one's more pragmatic. I think profiting from war should be a (the ultimate) Crime Against Humanity, a Capital Crime.

From the CEO of GE down to every single share-holder of any multi-national corporate war profiteer, to the guy who assembles landing gear struts on an A-10, to the software engineer who writes the binary code that guides an ICBM. All of 'em. Because I think that if we're going to consider, even remotely ...that a death penalty can be a deterrent, then consider not just the greater good, but the greatest good. War is an even worse cancer on human dignity, justice and death by proxy than even the death penalty could ever be. In this, I feel no hypocrisy, ...and no shame. Make it "the law" and beat those swords into plowshares, divest from the profiteers of the ultimate human suffering, quit that job if you have to, ...or else.

The first comes from the worst nightmares a parent can have, the second from the dreams of a greater good, a basic human dignity.

A "Death Penalty" is a barbaric proposition, but not the most barbaric proposition our species is wont to perpetuate.

....just sayin'

 Sweet_Le_Senza
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 199
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/8/2010 5:33:44 AM

except with the possible exception of terrorists using weapons of mass destruction - or war collaborators. These are exceptional cases, and still would be held to the highest possible standard of proof to be considered.


That's actually a good point! These guys would also go through International Criminal Court and still learning about that puppy!

I'm completely against the death penalty but in this situation these individual are trying to get a political message across by killing non combatants.

And what drives me crazy is the idiocy behind it! Here, go blow yourself up and make sure to take a bunch of non' believers with you'and you shall go to heaven and your family shall get financial rewards.
However notice the leaders never martyr themselves! Don't even get me started on these idiots! >:/

Anyhoo, I think Bush would probably have to be executed. I mean he is from Texas isn't he?
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 202
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/8/2010 9:36:29 AM
the death penalty , when it comes to terrorists , there crime should be looked upon as an act of war, not a regular crime, i really do not believe in the death penalty, as i have mentioned in a previous post, only the poor get sentenced to death
but in the case of terrorists, i believe it totally justified,it should be considered an act of war, and they should be done away with, it is a matter of defence
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 205
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/8/2010 7:53:26 PM

why do we use alcohol swabs to prep the IV site


Alcohol makes blood vessels easier to find. I'd also imagine it would disinfect any "spills". Plus, stays of execution can happen at the very last second.


not to mention their "last meal"..WOW! sounds like a way to go!


Na. I'd rather buy my own cheeseburger, bucket of fried chicken, and pint of ice cream.
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 206
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/8/2010 7:53:37 PM

funny how all these "nonreligious" types want to get all high and mighty when it comes to this issue....but its ok to do a LATE term abortion..and pull a viable baby from the womb and butcher it? because thats what happens, try working a clinic for a day....


What does religion have to do with personal moral convictions? Some people turn to their faith for moral guidance, true, but ALL of us live by some moral code, and some of us actually develop ours through rational thought rather than adopting some pre-packaged version.

And funny how some folks think it's always wrong to choose to eliminate the potential of a human life, but have no problem eliminating an actual one.

I don't believe vengeance is right. I do believe all of us at some point feel the urge for vengeance. What makes us civilized, or not, is how well we structure our society to protect us from our misguided urges and instead demonstrate that collectively we can be more civilized than we might be individually. that's why we have governments and laws.

I understand and agree with the outrage we feel at heinous acts. Being opposed to the death penalty does not in any way mean endorsing coddling the perpetrators of those acts. But I'm more concerned with assuring they never can do that again than I am at lowering ourselves to their level and inflicting cruel and inhumane punishment on them.

How hypocritical is it to say "what you did is wrong. So I'm going to do the same thing to you"? Lock them up and throw away the key. Make sure they never get the chance to do such a thing again. Society is protected. You and I are protected. That's what counts.

If we endorse vengeance, we endorse each of us taking the law into our own hands and exacting our own vengeance. What's the difference? It's time we all grew up as a civilization, in my view.

Dave
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 208
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/8/2010 9:36:28 PM

LOL...Phlebotomy expert are you? FALSE. a 1X1 alcohol prep? vasodilation? oh wow..please enlighten us....


Nope. Not an expert at all. But I remember a conversation about this with a girl who works for blood services as a vampire. She mentioned the part about alcohol making the veins easier to get at. And I just tried to think of another reason that made sense, like the last minute stay of execution. And then I just made up the bit about making the possible spills more sanitary and safe for those "doing the deed". Hopefully I won't totally offend your experience and knowledge with a Wikipedia quote. It was the first one that turned up on Google.


The arm of the condemned is swabbed with alcohol before the needle is inserted. Along with its antiseptic use, the alcohol also causes the blood vessels to rise to the skin's surface, making it easier to insert the needle. [1] The needles and equipment used are also sterilized. One reason for this is because the needles are standard medical products that are sterilized during manufacturing. Also, there is a chance that the prisoner could receive a stay of execution after the needles have been inserted as happened in the case of James Autry in October 1983 (he was executed eventually on 14 March 1984). Finally, it would also be a hazardous for those handling unsterile equipment.



OK cowboy, lets do another... how about a "sterile" needle used, barbaric?


Not sure. That's why we pay nurses.
 Super_Eve
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 210
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/8/2010 9:40:43 PM

You should move to Saudi Arabia. They actually do that there. Off with the big head at least, for certain crimes. And it's done in public, in Riyadh, in a place called "Chop-chop Square" by locals. http://www.walrusmagazine.com/articles/2009.05-field-notes-chop-chop-square/


Sorry, but this is hyperbole, within the scope of proving your point.

If you can post a link to a heinous form of human execution, then the counter should be under equal consideration. Violent and murderous pedophiles.


I'm against the death penalty totally, except with the possible exception of terrorists using weapons of mass destruction - or war collaborators. These are exceptional cases, and still would be held to the highest possible standard of proof to be considered.


So what you are saying is that the death penalty is correct, perceived through the lens of global impersonal criminalism, but personal atrocities don't merit the same exact punitive measures?

Why?

It doesn't make sense to me.

The only thing that has made sense to me thus far, is this:


But allowing the state to kill anyone is a slippery slope that we don't want to return to.


That speaks to political/ethical reasoning, outside any moral/emotional conviction.


funny how all these "nonreligious" types want to get all high and mighty when it comes to this issue...


This is not a discussion on religion, this is a discussion on the death penalty.


What makes us civilized, or not, is how well we structure our society to protect us from our misguided urges and instead demonstrate that collectively we can be more civilized than we might be individually. that's why we have governments and laws.


Only, the laws do not necessarily reflect the cocoon of human rights. Is this news to anyone?


But I'm more concerned with assuring they never can do that again


If they are dead, they can't. (Unless one believes in ghosts or reincarnation.)


If we endorse vengeance, we endorse each of us taking the law into our own hands and exacting our own vengeance.


I am curious...so what are your views on self-defense?
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 211
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/8/2010 9:45:00 PM
If you want the capital punishment, I'll give you capital punishment.

The problem with the death penalty is, there's no guarantee.
Give me a guarantee and I'll be in favor of the death penalty.

If the government executes the wrong person, if the government kills an innocent person by mistake, how does the victim get justice ?

If the lead prosecutor is willing to put up HIS OWN LIFE as a guarantee that the correct man is being executed, then I'll give you the death penalty.

If the lead prosecutor picks up a gun and shoots an innocent man on the street, we would have no problem charging him with murder.
If the lead prosecutor works the legal system to kill an innocent man, shouldn't he then also be tried for murder ?

After all, an eye for an eye and all that.
If we have no mercy for murderers, then we should have no mercy for them even if they work for the government.
 Sweet_Le_Senza
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 213
view profile
History
!!!
Posted: 4/9/2010 12:50:00 AM

IF YOU KILL MY FAMILY OR OTHERS AND CONFESS..YOUR GOING DOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you dont deserve to live here and suck up MY AND OTHERS DIME AND GET EDUCATED AND GET PLASTIC SURGERY(its happening) when LAW ABIDING CITIZENS NEED THOSE FUNDS DESPERATLEY.....PRO DEATH PENALTY FOR THE SELF CONFESSED FOR SURE...that's my morals...


See that statement just doesn't make any sense!

This is a perfect example of a citizen getting her info from the media as opposed to any kind of academic resources. Guaranteed!
 Sweet_Le_Senza
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 214
view profile
History
!!!
Posted: 4/9/2010 12:59:55 AM

point taken..and your correct(about religion)... HOWEVER *some* shouldnt be so HIPPOCRITICAL when it comes to "death by man's hand" when "the same" people ADVOCATE LATE term abortion which in essence, is the same thing..only DIFFERENCE is the BABIES are INNOCENT....


death penalty and abortion are not the same thing! I think it's funny how people think they are!
1) Death penalty is imposed by the state on those who have been found guilty of committing a crime.
2) This *baby* that you speak of has no rights therefore is not protected by the constitution so don't give me any bullshit about "killing an innocent baby* cuz that would be first degree murder which would be punishable in some areas with the death penalty so pshaw on that!

It's not the same thing and I'm glad we had a chance to clear that up with some FACTS!
 wvwaterfall
Joined: 1/17/2007
Msg: 215
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/9/2010 5:20:39 AM

I am curious...so what are your views on self-defense?


Self defense is a completely different situation. If you attack me or anyone else of course we should and do have the right to defend ourselves. But if you injure me or someone I love and I find out where you live and bring my buddies to come beat you or kill you that's NOT right, even if it's understandable.

I feel those urges the same as anyone else. But feeling an urge does not justify acting on that urge. Once again, that's why we have governments and laws and a penal system. And I believe the purpose of those processes should never be vengeance, but appropriate punishment and rehabilitation for lesser crimes, life without parole to remove the worse offenders from society WITHOUT institutionalizing the taking of life.

I know others feel differently, but also know that the U.S. has very little company in the world in terms of other countries who still utilize the death penalty, not countries we'd want to emulate in other policy practices.

Dave
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 216
view profile
History
!!!
Posted: 4/9/2010 5:49:02 AM

IF YOU KILL MY FAMILY OR OTHERS AND CONFESS..YOUR GOING DOWN!


I don't think confessions amount to 100% proof of guilt. Some people would rather commit suicide by state than deal with the future they envision. Some people are badgered into confessions they later retract. But I get your point. Maybe if there is some difference between beyond a reasonable doubt and 100% certainty, like video evidence, or hundreds of witnesses where there is no possibility of any doubt, then you could start hacking and slashing your way to peaceful vengence.


This is not a discussion on religion, this is a discussion on the death penalty


There are lots of biblical references to the death penalty of that's what you're into. People have to have some kind of moral grounds for their opinions. You can find evidence either for or against in the Bible. Totally handy book to throw at people either way.
 whiskeypapa
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 223
!!!
Posted: 4/11/2010 8:03:48 AM
The men hung in Iran were not hung because they were homosexual, they were hung because they raped young boys.

Perhaps, if the us/isreral refrained from killing civilians indescriminately OPEC could be persueded to take a stand against stoning , beheading and so on. What is the difference between beheading and having a hopped up yank drop a 500 lb. bomb on your house?
How many convicts , who may have been falsely convicted, did Bush exucute when he was Governor of Texas?
 Montreal_Guy
Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 229
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/12/2010 7:30:07 PM
If the death penalty worked, then eventually no one would commit a crime that qualified them for it. The problem is that criminals don't plan on getting caught, and that's why we still have people committing those crimes.

Those executioners in Saudi Arabia won't have to worry about being unemployed, nor will any other executioners.

If there was a connection between the death penalty and reduction of such crimes, then one would expect to see an increase in those crimes in countries and areas that have outlawed the death penalty - and there isn't. If one looks at demographics at the same time (remembering that a larger number of young males may in fact make violent crime more likely, as these are the main part of the population responsible for such crimes), one cannot make a case that the death penalty alone decreases such crimes....

As for those claiming prison to be so great, the fact that some criminals seem to spend a lot of time and energy escaping from them may indicate it's not that great a life. I've yet to see anyone in a rush to get captured and serve their sentence, either.
 Sweet_Le_Senza
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 231
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/13/2010 6:12:53 AM
Another thing that doesn't work is the 3 strikes rule!

This 'get tough' approach on crime is not the answer. It's doing more harm then good however due to the publics lack of knowledge pertaining to crime prevention and deterrence the voting public is quick to put in those who will do what the public wants.....just to get the votes.

it's not rocket science! :P
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 232
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/13/2010 7:06:25 AM
Since 1972, we executed 139 people who have since been exhonorated for the alleged crime. The culture didn't blink an eye then while doing an eye for an eye even if it was the wrong eye. We recently applied the death penalty to over a million Iraqis who had nothing to do with 9/11, and felt no remorse whatsoever as a nation. A large percentage of those victims were women and children. How can we expect any sort of moral responsibility as a people when our own widespread immorality is so readily accepted as normal human behavior. We stand ready with our injections, pitchforks, stones, ropes, drones, Apache Helicopters and automatic weaponry to rain down our " justice" indiscriminately and immediately, damn the truth.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 233
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/14/2010 2:01:35 AM
pirateheaven...Yupper, I be wrong. The number was 138 and we did not execute them, but they were on death row and they were exonerated.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/innocence-and-death-penalty
The exonerated tend to be disproportionately black. The US lynched 3445 black Americans from 1882 to 1964, most without due process or proof of guilt. Today the mobs are a bit more civilized, but upon execution, the case is closed to ensure that we may never ascertain innocence after the fact.

This microscopic veneer of civilized behavior that ensures relatively fair trials and appeals could quickly drop away at any time and we could revert to the good old days of local vigilante justice, lynchings and witch burnings.
 Sweet_Le_Senza
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 234
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/14/2010 5:26:16 AM

Let prisoners work for a living.


That's actually a good idea.
Another thing give them educations. None of this math and English bullshit. If they are in their for 10 years and are 19 when they get in, give them the whole shebang!

People who have the "if they do the crime let them do the time" don't understand the consequences of that term.
If we 'tag' these offenders, when they get out, the chances of them getting their life back together can be limited, ie jobs, with this 'ex-con' label.
Therefore it is very tempting for these individuals to go back into the criminal lifestyle and these individuals who go before the courts are represented by public defenders, therefore it's a revolving door!

As for the public defender I will look into how many executed and those awaiting executed had public defenders!

Those lawyers suck ass!
 Sweet_Le_Senza
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 236
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 4/14/2010 9:28:32 AM
Little, I think you're a little confused here! Actually I think you're a lot confused!


stand up for some of these inmates who are being rape & force to have abortion.


My arguments on public defenders vs private defenders pretty much gives you an idea of the issues within the justice system!!

2) Officers committing crimes is not new! I'm a fan of Jerome Skolnick so don't even get me started on that cuz I could talk circles around you and leave you spinning for days!


allot of those who leave prison come right back in within a week to a year...its a money making deal...


I've explained the revolving door theory! This money making deal fiasco that you speak of is the publics doing! The public want officers to find someone responsible for the crime as soon as possible especially if it is a violent offence. In situations like that innocent citizens get sent to prison. So don't give me any bullshit about what my taxes are doing! If you think that an offender who is on parole with a PHD is going to get hired in a prestigious position somewhere you're nuts!

It doesn't work that way! Why? Because he's been tagged by the state as an ex-con so your argument is fluff! One big ball of fluff!
 Devilsfan58
Joined: 3/19/2009
Msg: 237
view profile
History
Lets Talk Politics - Do you believe in the Death Penality?
Posted: 5/4/2010 11:53:32 PM
Yes.

But I think we should harvest body parts first. There is a shortage of organs in this country.

Is it possible? I don't know. I would hope so.
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  >