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 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 184
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?Page 16 of 21    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21)

Emotional intelligence is a euphemism for a derisive.
Meaning if you aren't behaving in a predetermined pattern, you aren't cultured in etiquette.


That is a bit like saying Asperger Syndrome is a euphanism for ADD. I'm not only talking about Gardner's Multiple Intelligence theory. Evidence is now very strong that expresive deficiencies such as Alexithymia can have physical causes (consider the work with the Romanian orphanages).

Also, it is not quite true that if something is innate it doesn't have to be taught. Language seems to be an innate aspect our our brains, we are born wired for the potential. However, failure to develope it at an early enough age may have physical implications for later developement of the skill.

Some people appear to simply be socially retarded, and there are many possible causes for such a condition ranging from what you call lack of conditioning all the way to Autism.

Some people do as they please.... some people are sociopaths.

I'm not completely sure I am clear on how the brief music history lesson you present relates to the subject, but having been a music major myself I'll bite.... and even help make your case by giving some vocabulary that people can Google if they wish to look into it further. While harmony did exist prior to the era of Plainsong, the Catholic church did discourage it for a time. After plainsong the musical genre that started using harmony was called Florid Organum (two voices that implied chords with different lines of melody) and then later the Motet (Google Machaut for some good examples).

A small correction, the Harmonic Minor isn't a mode, it is a scale. The mode is the Aeolian. The difference may be essentially splitting hairs since we are talking about the same notes, but the application is slightly different. I'm not sure which one you meant as the Diminished 7.

I think what you are driving at is that inspite of what we are used to there are forms of music that use different structures. This is surely true... though they generally all use "structure" to make music and there are similarities that often cross those culture bounderies. Harmony takes structure, though that structure can be very fluid even in western music such as Bebop.
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 185
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you? Escape from POF Purgatory!!!
Posted: 8/9/2009 4:22:03 PM

Do me a favor and save your pyscho analysis speech for the next person that cares. Im gonna make this very simple for you. If you are bothered by such sarcastic comments from others, then either don't read, or even reply to it. That shouldn't be to hard to comprehend now, right?


*lol* I was the one being "sarcastic", Mr Jacob. I am not sure you understand what that word really means.
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 186
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/9/2009 5:02:26 PM
Verityone... two things.

I think I realized which mode you mean with the Diminished 7. Are you talking about the Locrian since the chord from the tonic note is half diminished? (-7b5)

Also wanted to add...


The "romantics" simply don't want to acknowledge it.


I'm a romantic, and I more than acknowledge it. In fact, the romantics I am talking about seek to refine it, to live it as a path, to experience it as a means of growth. I didn't mean to reduce the subject to an academic discourse, in reality the romantic side of courtly impetus is dripping with eroticism. Most women are lucky to get 10 minuts of forplay... the real gentleman can keep her going all day. Some people are looking for something more sublime and intense in their lovemaking, just as some people aren't happy with MacDonalds as their food. I'll take the venison roast in charred pine nuts and a bleu cheese sauce, thanks. :)
 varinia
Joined: 1/1/2009
Msg: 187
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/9/2009 5:13:39 PM
"if rules are meant to be broken, then isn't the breaking of rules to become the new rule? "

But isn't the rule something that's clearly defined - a custom, a regulation - and doesn't 'breaking of rules' usually mean to get away from the defined and think out of the box? So, wouldn't a breaking of a rule by doing something not pre-determined be the opposite of a rule? Isn't it more of an option than and suggestion and not the norm?

Sorry, couldn't help myself ;-)
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 188
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/9/2009 5:20:34 PM
Oops, posting at the same time there. I would have answered these on the same post I just wrote had I known.


I get what you're saying. I should have framed it more to indicate that manners and chivalry are predetermined patterns, that are not innate...


Would it make more sense then to say that the potential for chivalry is innate?


Incorrect. The Aeolian is a mode, and often referred to as "Natural minor", as it has a "natural" 7. It is the 6th mode of the diatonic (Greek) scale, before the Locrian mode. It is also known as the "relative" minor to the "key".
The "Harmonic minor" is a "synthetic" scale, with the "sharp 7", also known as a "leading" tone.


Partly correct. Momentary brain fart on my part.... the natural minor has tthe same notes as the Aeolian. However, while you are right that the mode is often called the "natural minor" (even in some text books) it is technically incorrect to do so. The mode and the scale are not the same thing.... though again, I admit it may be splitting hairs.


Well, you want to cite History. There's a lot of ground to cover.
I merely wanted to indicate how people were expected to conform to "rigid" etiquettes, merely a few centuries ago, in the land of Kings and Queens.
It was a time of zealots, dictators and strong oppression. I don't know why it is romanticized so much.


I agree, it would have been a crappy time to live *lol*. Just for the record, the Occitan movement keep bringing up would not be the "sheeple", they were most definately the counter culture and some of them paid for it. In a time of sexual oppression esoteric eroticism was not always well recieved.
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 189
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/9/2009 5:52:01 PM

However, once more I contend that IMO certain individuals are sensual while others are not. Take a man who is a great lover; he can find himself with someone who is totally non-responsive. Don’t get me wrong she may enjoy the orgasm but not the venue. Once again an area that leads to great frustration for the partner who is sensual. The Kama Sutra, videos and other techniques are brought into play to no avail. She will merely go through the motions in order to attempt to meet his level of sensuality. But, every once in a while an, “Are you done yet?” will hit him like a lightening bolt and rather than bring her up to his sensuality, his will wane. Dr. Phil tells the man, if it is a man, that he is at fault and encourages him to wash the dishes. Not all persons are sensual any more than not all persons are intellectually gifted.


Yeesh!!!! That hit a bit too close to actual experience to be comfortable! *lol* And let me add that since I prefer that people leave my kitchen alone unless they have some idea what they are doing (my knives and cookware don't go in the dishwasher), I usually wind up being the one who cooks AND washes dishes. ;)
 Wyatt Earp1
Joined: 7/15/2009
Msg: 190
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/9/2009 6:03:29 PM
When you are nice to women, they step all over you. You land in the "friend" zone. There are of course a few women left that respect you, but overall so many women are different today, that NO MATTER WHAT THE WOMEN HERE SAY, it's more important WHAT THEY DO OFFLINE. If you are too nice, you lose. Many women look at you like you are retarded or something.

However once I find that good woman, I will spoil her with affection and being good to her.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 191
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/9/2009 9:46:02 PM
I'll repeat this for the 1000th time: "Chivalry is dead and feminism killed it"

Chivalry is a form of "noblesse oblige". It is man's recognition of the fairer, and weaker sex. He is cherishing her femininity which reaffirms his manhood. It's like the yin yang, one feeds the other. Feminism says women can do whatever men do, thus making it a contest.

After dating hundreds of women and having my heart broke more than a few times, the feminist ideals I was programmed with growing up have been beaten out of me. I realize that no matter what the raging femi-Nazi claims, she wants a man who is dominant over her.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 192
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/9/2009 11:44:46 PM
^^^Read "Sexual Utopia in Power" by Roger Devlin. You can google it. It goes deep into explaining the current moral dilemma of feminism in western civilization and what men need to do to change it.
 ColonelIngus
Joined: 9/16/2007
Msg: 193
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 1:39:57 AM

It is a problem that many persons deal with on a regular basis; the gross misconception that they can change someone’s behavior by merely pointing it out and asking them to change. They cannot. The rough, tough guy may curb his lack of manners and coarseness for a while but it will come out in a multitude of other ways that indicate his resentment for not being accepted as who he is.

I haven't seen a Star Trek reference around here for ages, so let me throw this out:

"It was far easier for you as civilized men to behave like barbarians than it was for them as barbarians to behave like civilized men."
- Spock, , in the epidsode "Mirror, Mirror", explaining to Kirk how the mirror versions of the crew were so quickly spotted

This is the reason why civilization is fragile.


Chivalry is dead and feminism killed it

People on this thread have repeatedly brought up "respect"... One of the most fundamental aspects of second wave feminism was a profound disrespect for men and masculinity -- ironically at the same time they wanted male careers and the freedom to engage in male style patterns of short-term commitment-free sex, but that's another thread.

When the whole public code of chivalry towards women was changed from a woman's privilege to a woman's oppression, the entire system began to break down. That's how feminism killed chivalry. Maybe it would have turned out differently if there had been more dissident female voices from those who realized what the implications and consequences would be, but there weren't and the damage was done, and seems to persist in the culture, lots of it now being institutionalized.

As a result, as more and more men experience the numerous little pinpr1cks of disrespect aimed at them which are circulating in the culture, the average man begins to get the impression that the average woman cares only about herself and how things affect her, and really has very little interest in cultivating an atmosphere of mutual basic respect.

The total disregard which both feminists and lots of average women have shown for men, their feelings, and their needs for the past several decades has destroyed a huge reserve of generalized goodwill toward the average woman which the average man used to have several decades ago. Just as the average woman has tended to overspend her income and borrow on her (monetary) credit cards, the average woman has also emptied out her “emotional” bank account and maxed out her credit line with men. For a lot of average men, it has become a pay-as-you-go situation.

It will likely take several more decades for this reservoir of goodwill to be refilled even after all the dam leaks and drawdown problems are remedied, which can't occur until they're at least acknowledged.
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 194
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 9:19:12 AM
^^^Like most women, you have bought into the idea that feminism was an organic movement - it wasn't:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRjF_ZZI7XY

It was funded by the Rockefellers to destabilize society by making the state the daddy and making the real daddy irrelevant - you can see their success all around you. Believe it or not, your mothers and grandmothers weren't depressed or oppressed by being domesticated. They were, in fact, a lot happier than the modern "independent" woman.

Sheesh! I could spend the next 15 minutes deconstructing all the nonsense you put forth, like women are tighter with money - HA!!

I just don't have the time and at this point, my goal is to educate the men since we got ourselves into this mess, and now we have to get ourselves out of it.
 mcwr
Joined: 3/24/2009
Msg: 195
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 9:27:15 AM

When you are nice to women, they step all over you. You land in the "friend" zone. There are of course a few women left that respect you, but overall so many women are different today, that NO MATTER WHAT THE WOMEN HERE SAY, it's more important WHAT THEY DO OFFLINE. If you are too nice, you lose. Many women look at you like you are retarded or something.


^^^This is exactly what I mean. F*ck with being nice already. Better off being an A**hole, but of course to each their own.

Either that, or you can just be some chics personal doormat.


Right. No one will care about you if you don't care about yourself. It is ok to care about her needs, but you have to put yours first. It should be your priority to make sure that both of your needs are being met. And if she doesn't like that, then find someone who does. You don't have to treat people like crap, but don't put up with any crap yourself.
 rockondon
Joined: 2/21/2007
Msg: 196
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 1:19:11 PM

Maybe writing your name in the snow while peeing, after a few beer?....
I've been considering getting my gf a stencil so she can partake in this wondrous experience.
On topic though, last night after watching a movie I brought my gf to her place then quickly got out the car and ran to her side as if to open the door for her. She opened the door, gave me a funny look and we shared a big laugh about the awkwardness of chivalry in this day and age.

I wonder how feminist movements view chivalry.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 197
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 1:25:52 PM

I wonder how feminist movements view chivalry.

To my knowledge, the view is "I can open my own dam door myself TYVM"

I love it when my sweetie opens my door for me... he doesn't do it every single time and frankly if he did it would become a pain having to demurely wait for him to trot around the car. But the times he does, because they are when the moment has moved him, or I have moved him, makes it very sweet. It's not a chivalrous dictated moment that he would perform for any woman... it's a special moment between the two of us.
 varinia
Joined: 1/1/2009
Msg: 198
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 3:36:17 PM
"And quite honestly in all fairness the majority of women on POF do not deserve any respect whatsoever and probably never will,you can see that in the manner they communicate/demand things/ridicule members/etc and the way some even hate men because of their own extreme faults.These women definitely are not suitable for LTRs "


Bandito, have you ever considered that the bitter and condescending attitude that you and a number of men here exhibit, could turn the nicest female into a total b*tch when having to endure your presence?
 tbuddha
Joined: 2/28/2005
Msg: 199
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 4:40:49 PM
varinia-

Seriously, I think there is a case to be made that women have been put in a role in our society that they are not suited for. It's not that we hate women, it's just that a lot of men, myself included, are realizing a societal problem with feminism and its effects. I wouldn't take it so personal.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 200
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 4:43:17 PM

Bandito, have you ever considered that the bitter and condescending attitude that you and a number of men here exhibit, could turn the nicest female into a total b*tch when having to endure your presence?


Ya know...I am normally a nice, optimistic, supportive of men and their concerns type of person..and even I am getting an attitude..sigh...you can't find a thread where men and women actually appear to like each other, and few can disagree without name calling, the same issues keep getting repeated because nothing is ever solved, compromised or understood...admitting being female may color my perspective..but, it seems to me that generally, women seem more bewildered and hurt , while generally, men just seem angry and hateful towards women..there are exceptions, as always...but, it seems to me ,if both sides could listen and try to see the other side, instead of blaming...things would actually improve...

Men are not short on flaws/failings or responsibility for the way things are right now...and I don't know if I think there is a "wrong" or "right" point of view about which side is to blame or which isn't..but, if anyone actually wants to make both sides happy..you sure can't tell it on here...

OT: moonbeamlover: I'll split the difference with you and splendere...it is true that some women ( and other protected groups ) have jobs that they don't deserve on merit..and that needs to be corrected...but, it is also true that it isn't a majority..and, in the beginning, they made up the quotas and rules to ensure compliance...because there were many men who wouldn't have done it otherwise ( and there are still some who do...my current employers are still very chauvinistic)...I think we have reached a point where we don't need that anymore, and giving jobs based on ability would include not excluding anyone based on any discriminatory reasons alone...

It is also true that at the time white men didn't need protection because they already had all the rights and powers that go with it...( the ERA was never actually ratified in the US, btw, the assumption being the constitution protected all classes and genders and races already if we are all truly equal as human beings), but, in some places and cases they are now suffering reverse discrimination...I think this is going to swing back, maybe I am being my normal optimistic self, but, most intelligent women I know are aware it is a problem, and support equilibrium..

I am weary both of being lumped in with "feminists" as ruining the world, and assumptions made, and labels attached in absolutes..I don't consider myself one way or the other...my beliefs are a mixture of many things, and I am not interested in "rules" myself..just what works for the two individuals involved...and consideration for both parties needs and views...

I have never in my life thought I should have what I don't deserve, or what I didn't work for, in fact, the feminism I learned said just the opposite..that I didn't deserve to not work outside the home, nor expect appreciation or have value if I didn't...and I generally don't think I "deserve" anything..that's why I am so appreciative when men do nice things , or consider my feelings...because it is a gift...and then I might feel deserving...

I just don't personally know all these entitled, selfish women that so many men complain about on here..maybe it is the company I keep, maybe it is where I live..I don't know...but, all the women I know work very hard in and outside the home, and give as much and many times more than their SO's...and are loved by them.

Just because I grew up in this change doesn't mean I bought the rhetoric...or live it...I just do the best I can, and try to be the best person I can, and hope that somewhere, sometime, some man actually likes me enough to see that, and appreciate it, and act it...and not accuse me of untrue and ulterior motives...

And most everyday women I know are the same...
 UnzippedPassion
Joined: 10/30/2005
Msg: 201
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/10/2009 5:31:58 PM
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
I think chivalry and good manners go hand and hand, both showing a very respectful character and both genders should be displaying those same manners and respect towards each other.

Yes, I definitely notice when someone takes the time to open the car door for me first or holds the door to allow me to walk in first and a mental note gets made that a gentleman is in my presence. But if they didn't open the door for me I wouldn't rule out their being a respectful person....only that they never realized just how many things they could do for a woman to show good manners of the kind that deserve to be mentally noted. lol I'm sure that's because less and less people display chivalry of that manner and therefore others no longer see or learn from them. Never taught, never learned, never displayed....and so the cycle goes until it becomes a dying art.

 TopChuck
Joined: 1/19/2008
Msg: 202
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 8/12/2009 1:47:59 PM

men should do this. men should do that. wtf do you do?
They appreciate us.

Understanding that the genders define being loved differently forces us to use a different strategy to 'earn' the loving we want to live fulfilled lives.

The reason we believe we're not getting something in return is that some women don't reciprocate by providing loving as we define it.

Cmdrfunk, your point is accurate, when the reciprocation is absent. The women who don't reciprocate became convinced that men were oppressing them, when all we want to do is love them and be loved in return.

There are two important ways to prevent loving:

1. The prevention of the natural tendency to love by both genders. This is accomplished by attacking the motives of either gender, when they express love. This is the 'lib' contribution to love destruction.

Men who anticipate the 'lib' reaction and can't count on being accepted, don't take the chance that women know how to be loved. They don't 'Chival'.

It's not that women want it both ways. It's that some women want it one way, learned from the 'lib' movement, based on their being oppressed, and other women want to be loved as their instincts define being loved.

It makes men, who take the chance on being chivalrous, neurotic. They're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

2. The belief that the definition of loving is the same for both genders. This usually occurs after one stops loving for some reason. Before that, loving is based on the natural instincts of both genders.

Usually it's the male who stops loving, because he reaches some plateau that makes him take a break. He's a hunter and after he makes the capture, he tends to relax and enjoy the fruits of his labor. He stops using the skills that enabled him to make the capture in the first place.

The reaction when the initial loving is interrupted is to try to show the other person how to love as an example for them to follow in loving them.

This "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." doesn't work because of the difference in definitions. It leads to role reversal in relationships, which leads to nastiness. Living our lives centered in our specific genders contributes to self actualization. Celebrating one's gender identity is a matter of finding one's 'gender center' and enjoying the self actualization that comes with that arrival.

We need to learn to "Do unto others as they would want us to do unto them." in relationships.

We have to understand loving to do that. Again, that's the path out of POF Purgatory.

Heed the call, Lovers! Follow me!

.
 The Real Gentleman
Joined: 11/19/2008
Msg: 203
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 9/10/2009 12:21:49 AM
Thanks to all who have responded with your answers and comments!!!
 head.cloud123
Joined: 5/29/2009
Msg: 204
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 9/19/2009 3:30:39 PM

men should do this. men should do that. wtf do you do?
They appreciate us.


Sorry but that is just not acceptable for most men.

How abut men start doing nothing for women and expect women to cook, do laundry, give back rubs?

In exchange we will appreciate women.

Sounds good?
 jacob8088
Joined: 9/6/2009
Msg: 205
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 10/4/2009 7:55:50 PM
As much as I hate to say it, chivalry is dead in this day and age. It is intepreted as a courteous behavior allright, but not to all women. It would only pertain to gf's or wives.
 flyingstart
Joined: 5/15/2009
Msg: 206
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 10/4/2009 8:29:41 PM
Chivalry existed in a strict sense when man was the bread winner.
How much "chivalry" is when competition shows up ? Maybe there is/was chivalry in the Donald Trump shows ?
 curiousaboutu77
Joined: 12/28/2007
Msg: 207
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 10/5/2009 3:27:10 AM
I wouldn't call myself a person that engages in chivalry but i do enjoy being nice to people. When i open the door, let the other person through first and saying thank you when people do it for me. Help people with directions or whatever, it feels good to help people i think. We all live on this ball of rock together so why not make things easier for each other.
 Inego Montoya
Joined: 9/9/2009
Msg: 208
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 10/10/2009 1:06:44 AM
Yes, I do. I also believe thos of us that practice it will be dumped for "bad boys."
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