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 *topchef*
Joined: 8/2/2008
Msg: 76
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?Page 4 of 21    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21)
Very interesting cd. And I always thought it was because those doors were so heavy.
 2Irish1
Joined: 9/1/2008
Msg: 77
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/25/2009 8:52:03 PM
Ok wisea$$ moment......the small of the back is only a few inches away from the crack of the a$$
Oooo. Weak knee moment. What is up with that touch on the small of the back guide that is so sexy? I don't understand it myself, but it makes me want to melt in closer. Probably some Neanderthal throwback
 Janet4ever
Joined: 4/14/2008
Msg: 78
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/26/2009 7:08:43 AM

chivalrous behavior: considerate and courteous behavior, especially shown by a man toward women

The problem with statements like the one above is that it underscores the underlying absence of reciprocity all while highlighting a thinly veiled entitlement expectation.

I'm not sure how a man behaving in a chivalrous way highlights a thinly veiled entitlement expectation... but your comment is certainly a screaming example of bitterness towards women.

Sorry you've been hurt before.
 eastendwoman
Joined: 7/15/2006
Msg: 79
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/26/2009 6:10:24 PM
Yes absolutely. Continue to be a gentleman even if the current lady doesn't appreciate it.
Sooner or later you'll find a woman that will appreciate it and both of you will be very happy.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 80
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/27/2009 1:02:25 AM

Correct. The savy womanizer and/or abuser has already perfected the art of deceptive chivlary to reach their end goal. If it sounds to good to be true, its not.


I would hope that most women,especially intelligent and been around for awhile ones ( or old, like me..lol)can certainly tell the difference ( give us some credit here)..I certainly can..I have never been abused or womanized..but, I have known many men who were courteous , kind, and respectful, without any agenda..just because they thought it was the right way to be. And to everyone, not just romantic interests. My dad was such a man.

Women are not the only gender subject to Pavlovian behavior..we all are. If I remember it all correctly ( and it's been a while), it is about learned behavior or conditioning, right? I think all humans have some of that..some sexual responses in both genders being possible.

However, I think most sexual responses are instinctive, or unconscious...we all know we can not control who we are attracted to or what behaviors turn us on..or even know why they do. Going by the responses of some women, this behavior is a sexual turn on...we can debate whether it is learned, or instinctive, biological or evolutionary...but, it is what it is. And maybe the responses aren't any more controllable than the sexual responses that men have to certain stimuli or visuals...which has been established as beyond their control..I can't count how many times a man has mentioned a situation that it was inconvenient or embarrassing to have a sexual response to something, some even saying they weren't sure why they reacted at that particular event or moment.

I know that I, and many women I know, go out of their way to do, or be, or dress, or behave in ways that we know turn the men we are interested in on..even if it is hard for us for some reason,we don't really understand it, or in our minds it seems silly..but, because we want to please him, we do it. I don't think wanting/liking reciprocal behavior is a bad thing.

I know it is a turn on for me when men I am interested in are courteous or considerate..I don't think I am entitled to it..that is why it is so cool..because, I know I am not..so, it is a gift in my mind. An effort being made to appeal to my sexual stimuli.

That hand in the small of the back, and the leading when dancing ...yes...very hot..who knows where it comes from..I don't think it matters..I just know it is behavior that obviously appeals to my sexual triggers..and I would think any man interested in me would want to do that...for both of us.

And as I said earlier...I can tell fake by now...lots of years of practice...you are right 007..if it seems to good to be true it is..but, sincerity is a whole different ballgame. And I'm more than willing to reciprocate in ways that appeal to him.

Beyond that...basic courtesy and respect for all humans ( and animals) is a good thing in my mind..and that's how I conduct myself.

EDITED for my usual typos...
 Janet4ever
Joined: 4/14/2008
Msg: 81
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/27/2009 9:18:02 AM
^^and anyone who assumes someone displaying courteous (chivalry-type) behavior is trying to trick you, is ridiculous... and just cheating yourself out of receiving from another human being with gratitude and respect.

too bad.
 zangie
Joined: 5/30/2007
Msg: 82
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/27/2009 12:42:16 PM

Would never say never... (and definitely don't think I'm "all that"; just intuitive)

But you're right; it could happen. But when i'm called generous to a fault I'm not doing it "for a reason" nor am I doing it "to get something".

I'm doing it because I like giving to people.

If people want to display charming, gallant, old fashioned sexy manners and treat me like a woman because they like "giving to people", why can't I enjoy it without looking past it to see if they are trying to create a pavlovian scenario?

Isn't there also a expectation with some of guilty until proven innocent? cynicism is a closed expectation... I'd rather appreciate kindness rather than assume ulterior motives :)


Ditto....
 Janet4ever
Joined: 4/14/2008
Msg: 83
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/27/2009 3:48:10 PM

Why should females expect men to do them?

There are far too many men like you to expect chivalry... but when it happens -- what a wonderful thing!
 TopChuck
Joined: 1/19/2008
Msg: 84
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/27/2009 4:03:12 PM
I use it as a training tool, with my submissive.

.
 2Irish1
Joined: 9/1/2008
Msg: 85
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/27/2009 4:09:26 PM
Christmas!!!

How hard is it to be a gentleman...of course...unless you think like Michael Jackson?
 wooliepack
Joined: 5/10/2009
Msg: 86
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/27/2009 6:00:43 PM
It's been said, that true Chivalry died at the Battle of Crecy in August, 1346. There, English archers with their heavy longbows slaughtered the flower of the French nobility by the thousands.
Traditionally, the beaten men would have been taken prisoner, and exchanged for ransom. Instead, the expensive French aristocrats were simply killed the same as common men-at-arms.

The religious/romantic ideal of chivalry has no place in today's world. The men who practiced it originally were merely serving a selfish, murderous ruling elite. Today, the man who lives by the Code of Chivalry may as well be a Boy Scout, for the way he is valued by others.

Common courtesy, which is what most people refer to as "chivalry", never goes out of style.
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 87
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/27/2009 6:21:41 PM

Many Women want equal rights but only when it suites them.

You're f'n a right I want to be put up in a suite whenever I exhibit equal rights. Who wouldn't?
 karma1160
Joined: 6/10/2008
Msg: 88
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 6/27/2009 8:58:25 PM
I believe in it and I like it but I think if a person is a genuine caring human being this would be enough for me. like say you get up to get yourself a glass of water and ask me if I would like one too that is caring kindness and I like that in people.
While I like having a door opened for me I do not require it nor do I think I am entitled.
What I do value though is a relationship where someone else will take up the slack of another if they can not do their normal .
Like say I usually cook but I have had to stay longer at work because a patient needed me this is something I can not control and if its supper time and you are home first
start cooking.......... simple things like this really make a huge difference.
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 89
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/9/2009 10:34:46 PM

Does it sound delusional when a man expects a female to do these things? Why should females expect men to do them?


Beacause MEN don't think in childish terms of whether they get back the exact same expressions of respect.... let alone love. Niether do ladies. You don't think a woman who loves you wouldn't give the same back in her own way?

Ok, if you don't get the refinement aspect then how about if we reduce it to some kind of biological aspect that will allow even those without aesthetic sense to have a reason for manners. You, Mr Nastyjerk, are male. We could kill off 90% of you and I and the species would live on. Kill off the same number of women and the situation is less sure. There is a reason you are not allowed to kill female elk, deer, etc.. You were born expendable, brother. Get over it.

Men, give everything to the lady you love. Be sure of only one thing, that she loves you in such a way that she doesn't abuse it.
 Monkey_brains
Joined: 6/25/2009
Msg: 90
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/9/2009 10:43:21 PM
VERY....

Especially if I lose my lighter....
or my panties....
 mcwr
Joined: 3/24/2009
Msg: 91
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/10/2009 12:10:26 AM
Chivalry is sexism. Reciprocation is important in a relationship between equals. If you want to be a door mat, that is your choice.
 HazelRose
Joined: 6/15/2009
Msg: 92
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/10/2009 12:57:05 AM
I think the idea that there are men in this world that want to offer a helping hand to the lady is wonderful. I also love the idea that there are also women in the world who want to reciprocate the action back are great, too. Every good deed deserves another. I grew up in a family of brothers, and my two older brothers I looked up to as my models for how all men should be. Ok, sometimes they tried to throw me into a couch or a wall for WWE (it was WWF at the time) practice, but most of the time they were protective, generous, and funny to me. Now, they are married, and very happy. Yeah, I hope chivalry is not dead.
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 93
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/10/2009 9:02:32 AM
Ceffodicane

There is an inconsistency in your post. You say that we should kill chivalry, but you borrow terms and concepts from it that keep the vital organs alive. You simply can't use the terms "courtesy" and "gentleman" without keeping one of the three historical forms of chivalry on life support. It sounds to me like rather than killing it, you would like to remove the things you like from the things you don't. This is surely your prerogative but I think you should be aware of the fact that you are doing it.
 centerfield51
Joined: 1/8/2008
Msg: 94
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/10/2009 11:55:57 AM
OP has the most pretentious toolbag of a profile I have ever seen in my days here on planet earth. May the good Lord have mercy on his soul.
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 95
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/10/2009 5:39:49 PM

Sucking up is such a comical art form...


Golly. I guess you have me pegged. In the future I will stop to learn from your social acumen, Verityone.


No, I don't actually. I don't see many woman doing anything that closely parallels to chivalry.


Of course you don't Verityone, just as you don't see most men doing so. Even most of those who believe they have some concept of it do so from an entirely modern perspective colored by Victorianism and 1940s conservative masculinity. As I pointed out previously in my post on historical forms, the word "chivalry" has become misunderstood and misused to the point of having little communicative value. Many people have many different meanings and there is no disambiguation going on here.

Let me point out though that the post of mine you are answering is actually not in support of (or against) chivalry, it is about men who whine about not getting what they want from women.... just for the record.


How about she just reciprocate? Or is that too much to ask?


Nope, I would say that is not too much to ask. It just depends on what you are looking for in a relationship I guess. What it is to "reciprocate" could mean different things to different people.
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 96
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/10/2009 6:30:31 PM
Here is a subject that hasn't come up in this thread! Everyone has been talking about "chivalry" from the perspective of simple social value. What about "Fin'amor" from the spiritual perspective? Yah, the atheists here need not worry about this part of the conversation (unless they do so from a literary stance), but the implications are there with the subject. Dante, Cavalcanti, Eschenbach, one of the forms of Chivalry isn't just about manners... it is about erotic alchemy.
 HazelRose
Joined: 6/15/2009
Msg: 97
How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/11/2009 3:29:08 AM
Well if guys feel women are overrated, and no longer deserve serenades, well for those guys there is always "Brokeback Mountain". There is the silence a guy needs in a relationship, depth, and understanding that I guess some women may not be able to give. Not to mention it did get an Oscar or two. Just being the Devil's Advocate.
 marisia
Joined: 10/25/2008
Msg: 98
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/11/2009 10:42:10 AM
I really appreciete a man who is chivalrous, its shows general good manners.

Equally I would hold a door open for someone, give my seat to someone who needed it more, help carry for someone physically weeker or to lighten a load.

Keep it up.
 marisia
Joined: 10/25/2008
Msg: 99
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/11/2009 10:48:33 AM
I completely disagree.
Being chivarlious is about manners and respect. Taking care of someone.

Sexism is about gender, control and inequality bullying due to having male or female chromasomes.

They are very different issues.
 cdbergerac
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 100
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How important is chivalry in an relationship to you?
Posted: 7/11/2009 11:30:05 AM

Are you sure you're only 40?


Somehow 40 seems like enough to me, Ms Leona. ;)

Mr Cmdrfunk


Lol. Is it dead? Might not have ever even EXISTED but in the heads of poets!! HAHA!!


Isn't that enough? In any event, the actual debate isn't whether Fin'amor found physical expression (it obviously did) but whether it did so in the context of formalized courts. Dante's falling out with his mentor, Cavalcanti, was partly over this very issue, since the Fedeli d'Amore believed in the physical expression in esoteric romance and he did not.


Today's women do not meet this standard to be deserving of chivalry. They no longer inspire poets or serve as a driving force for men to create.


I am a composer and I am looking for my muse, so obviously I can't agree with the notion that women today can't inspire that creative force. The "erotic alchemy" I mentioned previously is exactly this, the realization that in the face of one's beloved is the reflection of that One Lady.... that spiritual drive of artistic expression from which comes some of the greatest music, poetry and art ever concieved in the western world. It is a refinement of romance between two people so that their interaction becomes like procreation on a level other than the physical. Being brought to fuition in its stages, why could love not be an ennobling force?

Here is to the women who are deserving of chivalry and can still inspire the poets, the five stages through which the muse takes the heart.....

Visum
Allocutio
Tactum
Osculum
Factum

Enter morning, we see.
Glances, shading, vibrant colors present your picture. The clarity of your image I have stolen with my eyes, to hide in secret places for all time.

Enter, inter, we speak.
En-amored, the musical tones that present your voice to me, ring clear in life. Your song and mine, harmony.

Enter mid-day, we touch.
Casual, off-hand, but meaning more. Testing. Lightly, then bolder, and then your hand in mine across the distance. It seems we "see" anew. The world beats in time with the heart's discovery.

Enter dusk, we kiss.
Tasting desire, like a palpable flavor. It's texture warm and slick, it's palate musk and salt. Closer to pain, closer to release, we have passed the external. We share.

Enter night, dare we mention it?
Velvet musings, for no one else to see. Something is joined, a vision, a sound, a touch, a kiss. From now is concieved... the new day. Tomorrow is it's birth, and all will be different.
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